The New Yorker Radio Hour
Episode: Lucinda Williams Talks with Ariel Levy
Date: May 21, 2019
Host: David Remnick (introduction), Ariel Levy (interviewer)
Guest: Lucinda Williams (singer-songwriter)
Overview
This episode centers on an in-depth, personal conversation between New Yorker staff writer Ariel Levy and the acclaimed American songwriter Lucinda Williams. The discussion covers Williams' creative roots, the influence of religion and family, her experiences navigating the music industry, her fearless approach to songwriting, and insights into her celebrated career. The episode captures Williams’ honesty, independent spirit, artistic vulnerability, and her determination to stay true to her craft.
Key Discussion Points and Insights
The Role of Religion and Spirituality
- Folklore, Mythology, and Symbolism: Williams shares her appreciation for the rich symbolism and mythology of religion, even as her personal beliefs differ from organized faith.
- “I just love the folklore and the mythology and the symbolism of it all.” – Lucinda Williams [02:13]
- Religious Upbringing vs. Personal Beliefs: Both of Williams’ grandfathers were Methodist ministers, but her father became agnostic.
- “My dad described himself as agnostic... I don’t believe in original sin. So I'm not a Christian, you know, I guess except I feel like I live my life more like a Christian than a lot of Christians.” – Lucinda Williams [01:53]
Sense of Destiny and Calling in Music
- Early Influences: Williams felt her musical calling as early as age 12, inspired by her family, her mother’s piano, and her father’s eclectic record collection.
- “Probably from the time I was about 12 years old... my dad was listening to everyone from Hank Williams to John Coltrane, Chet Baker, Lightning Hopkins.” – Lucinda Williams [02:47]
- Beginning to Write: Williams began composing songs around age 13 or 14, in an environment surrounded by literature and poets, thanks to her poet-father, Miller Williams.
- “He encouraged me... I grew up in that academic environment, you know, and it’s very... stimulating.” – Lucinda Williams [03:45]
The Path to Professional Music
- Early Gigs in New Orleans: Williams recounts getting her first steady gig at Andy’s, a folk club on Bourbon Street, which became a major turning point with her father’s support.
- “I called my dad and I said... I want to stay down here and do this. And he said, ‘okay.’ That was probably the biggest turning point in... my career.” – Lucinda Williams [04:29]
- “I needed to have his permission... it's important for kids to have at least someone they don't want to disappoint.” – Lucinda Williams [05:47]
Struggles and Integrity in the Music Industry
- Development Deal and Rejection: Williams describes her first development deal in LA, the excitement of having time to write, and the later triumph when her Grammy-winning song Passionate Kisses (originally rejected) became a hit.
- “There's the same ones that ended up on the Rough Trade album, Passionate Kisses and Crescent City and All.” – Lucinda Williams [07:03]
- On being passed over: “I got passed on by everybody. Yeah, it's gratifying later on to win a Grammy for a song they didn't pick up.”* – Lucinda Williams [08:00]
- Defining a Genre: Williams felt she fell “between the cracks” at a time before Americana or Alternative Country were recognized.
- “At the time back in the mid-80s, there was no Americana... So they didn't know. I literally fell in the cracks...” – Lucinda Williams [08:08]
- Artistic Integrity: When asked if her so-called integrity was really about fear, Williams confesses she was terrified of being overproduced, citing the disco-era missteps of others.
- “I was... terrified of being overproduced and all of this, because I had seen other folk blues heroes... make these horrible, horrendous albums.” – Lucinda Williams [08:37]
Songwriting—Erotic Themes and Candidness
- Fearless Expression: Williams is celebrated for her trendsetting, uninhibited songs about love and sexuality. She attributes her open writing style to lessons from her father: never censor yourself.
- “The truth is, I like to push people's buttons a little bit.” – Lucinda Williams [09:17]
- “That was one of the things my dad taught me about writing. Don't censor yourself.” – Lucinda Williams [09:24]
- Memorable Concert Moment: Williams recalls a notorious story about a woman at a New Orleans concert getting arrested for masturbating during her song “Essence.”
- “She was kicking the policeman because she wasn't finished yet... it's a very sexy song. I felt this kind of little pride about that.” – Lucinda Williams [10:06]
Evolving as an Artist
- Gaining Confidence: Williams admits she once struggled with stage fright and doubted her singing ability, pushing herself to focus on songwriting. With experience, she's grown more confident and prolific.
- “I feel like I’m more confident now. I feel like I'm actually writing more... I still get nervous... it helps to have a great band behind you.” – Lucinda Williams [11:14]
- On advice from Emmylou Harris: “Your limitations become your strength.”* – Lucinda Williams [11:57]
Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments
- “I feel like I live my life more like a Christian than a lot of Christians.” – Lucinda Williams [01:53]
- “I needed to have his permission... it's important for kids to have at least someone they don't want to disappoint.” – Lucinda Williams [05:47]
- “I got passed on by everybody. Yeah, it's gratifying later on to win a Grammy for a song they didn't pick up.” – Lucinda Williams [08:00]
- “The truth is, I like to push people's buttons a little bit.” – Lucinda Williams [09:17]
- “Your limitations become your strength.” – Emmylou Harris, as remembered by Lucinda Williams [11:57]
Important Segments & Timestamps
- Lucinda’s views on religion and family – [00:39]–[02:27]
- Formative music years and family influence – [02:27]–[04:17]
- First gigs and moment of father’s approval – [04:17]–[05:51]
- Early LA development deal and industry struggles – [06:11]–[08:08]
- Artistic integrity & staying true to her sound – [08:26]–[09:02]
- Writing about eroticism and not self-censoring – [09:02]–[09:55]
- Notorious fan incident during “Essence” – [09:58]–[11:11]
- Gaining confidence over the years – [11:11]–[11:53]
- Advice from Emmylou Harris – [11:55]–[12:05]
- Reading/Performance: "World Without Tears" – [12:22]–[15:15]
“World Without Tears” Live Performance [12:22]
The episode closes with Lucinda Williams performing her song “World Without Tears,” blending poetic lyrics with musical vulnerability. The words meditate on the idea of sorrow, empathy, and emotional pain as integral to the human experience, asking: if there were no tears or heartbreak, how would we know love, connection, or even ourselves?
Summary
Through candid anecdotes and personal philosophy, Lucinda Williams offers a vivid portrait of the messiness, joy, and battles of the creative life. Listeners are treated to not just the narrative of a musical icon but to Williams’ raw, resonant wisdom on family, faith, artistic confidence, and the courage to chart an original path.