Lucinda Williams Talks with Ariel Levy

Summary

The New Yorker Radio Hour

Episode: Lucinda Williams Talks with Ariel Levy
Date: May 21, 2019
Host: David Remnick (introduction), Ariel Levy (interviewer)
Guest: Lucinda Williams (singer-songwriter)

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Overview

This episode centers on an in-depth, personal conversation between New Yorker staff writer Ariel Levy and the acclaimed American songwriter Lucinda Williams. The discussion covers Williams' creative roots, the influence of religion and family, her experiences navigating the music industry, her fearless approach to songwriting, and insights into her celebrated career. The episode captures Williams’ honesty, independent spirit, artistic vulnerability, and her determination to stay true to her craft.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

The Role of Religion and Spirituality

• Folklore, Mythology, and Symbolism: Williams shares her appreciation for the rich symbolism and mythology of religion, even as her personal beliefs differ from organized faith.
  • “I just love the folklore and the mythology and the symbolism of it all.” – Lucinda Williams [02:13]
• Religious Upbringing vs. Personal Beliefs: Both of Williams’ grandfathers were Methodist ministers, but her father became agnostic.
  • “My dad described himself as agnostic... I don’t believe in original sin. So I'm not a Christian, you know, I guess except I feel like I live my life more like a Christian than a lot of Christians.” – Lucinda Williams [01:53]

Sense of Destiny and Calling in Music

• Early Influences: Williams felt her musical calling as early as age 12, inspired by her family, her mother’s piano, and her father’s eclectic record collection.
  • “Probably from the time I was about 12 years old... my dad was listening to everyone from Hank Williams to John Coltrane, Chet Baker, Lightning Hopkins.” – Lucinda Williams [02:47]
• Beginning to Write: Williams began composing songs around age 13 or 14, in an environment surrounded by literature and poets, thanks to her poet-father, Miller Williams.
  • “He encouraged me... I grew up in that academic environment, you know, and it’s very... stimulating.” – Lucinda Williams [03:45]

The Path to Professional Music

• Early Gigs in New Orleans: Williams recounts getting her first steady gig at Andy’s, a folk club on Bourbon Street, which became a major turning point with her father’s support.
  • “I called my dad and I said... I want to stay down here and do this. And he said, ‘okay.’ That was probably the biggest turning point in... my career.” – Lucinda Williams [04:29]
  • “I needed to have his permission... it's important for kids to have at least someone they don't want to disappoint.” – Lucinda Williams [05:47]

Struggles and Integrity in the Music Industry

• Development Deal and Rejection: Williams describes her first development deal in LA, the excitement of having time to write, and the later triumph when her Grammy-winning song Passionate Kisses (originally rejected) became a hit.
  • “There's the same ones that ended up on the Rough Trade album, Passionate Kisses and Crescent City and All.” – Lucinda Williams [07:03]
  • On being passed over: “I got passed on by everybody. Yeah, it's gratifying later on to win a Grammy for a song they didn't pick up.”* – Lucinda Williams [08:00]
• Defining a Genre: Williams felt she fell “between the cracks” at a time before Americana or Alternative Country were recognized.
  • “At the time back in the mid-80s, there was no Americana... So they didn't know. I literally fell in the cracks...” – Lucinda Williams [08:08]
• Artistic Integrity: When asked if her so-called integrity was really about fear, Williams confesses she was terrified of being overproduced, citing the disco-era missteps of others.
  • “I was... terrified of being overproduced and all of this, because I had seen other folk blues heroes... make these horrible, horrendous albums.” – Lucinda Williams [08:37]

Songwriting—Erotic Themes and Candidness

• Fearless Expression: Williams is celebrated for her trendsetting, uninhibited songs about love and sexuality. She attributes her open writing style to lessons from her father: never censor yourself.
  • “The truth is, I like to push people's buttons a little bit.” – Lucinda Williams [09:17]
  • “That was one of the things my dad taught me about writing. Don't censor yourself.” – Lucinda Williams [09:24]
• Memorable Concert Moment: Williams recalls a notorious story about a woman at a New Orleans concert getting arrested for masturbating during her song “Essence.”
  • “She was kicking the policeman because she wasn't finished yet... it's a very sexy song. I felt this kind of little pride about that.” – Lucinda Williams [10:06]

Evolving as an Artist

• Gaining Confidence: Williams admits she once struggled with stage fright and doubted her singing ability, pushing herself to focus on songwriting. With experience, she's grown more confident and prolific.
  • “I feel like I’m more confident now. I feel like I'm actually writing more... I still get nervous... it helps to have a great band behind you.” – Lucinda Williams [11:14]
  • On advice from Emmylou Harris: “Your limitations become your strength.”* – Lucinda Williams [11:57]

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “I feel like I live my life more like a Christian than a lot of Christians.” – Lucinda Williams [01:53]
• “I needed to have his permission... it's important for kids to have at least someone they don't want to disappoint.” – Lucinda Williams [05:47]
• “I got passed on by everybody. Yeah, it's gratifying later on to win a Grammy for a song they didn't pick up.” – Lucinda Williams [08:00]
• “The truth is, I like to push people's buttons a little bit.” – Lucinda Williams [09:17]
• “Your limitations become your strength.” – Emmylou Harris, as remembered by Lucinda Williams [11:57]

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Important Segments & Timestamps

• Lucinda’s views on religion and family – [00:39]–[02:27]
• Formative music years and family influence – [02:27]–[04:17]
• First gigs and moment of father’s approval – [04:17]–[05:51]
• Early LA development deal and industry struggles – [06:11]–[08:08]
• Artistic integrity & staying true to her sound – [08:26]–[09:02]
• Writing about eroticism and not self-censoring – [09:02]–[09:55]
• Notorious fan incident during “Essence” – [09:58]–[11:11]
• Gaining confidence over the years – [11:11]–[11:53]
• Advice from Emmylou Harris – [11:55]–[12:05]
• Reading/Performance: "World Without Tears" – [12:22]–[15:15]

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“World Without Tears” Live Performance [12:22]

The episode closes with Lucinda Williams performing her song “World Without Tears,” blending poetic lyrics with musical vulnerability. The words meditate on the idea of sorrow, empathy, and emotional pain as integral to the human experience, asking: if there were no tears or heartbreak, how would we know love, connection, or even ourselves?

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Summary

Through candid anecdotes and personal philosophy, Lucinda Williams offers a vivid portrait of the messiness, joy, and battles of the creative life. Listeners are treated to not just the narrative of a musical icon but to Williams’ raw, resonant wisdom on family, faith, artistic confidence, and the courage to chart an original path.

Transcript

[Announcer]

From one World Trade center in Manhattan, this is the New Yorker Radio Hour, a co production of the New Yorker and WNYC Studios.

[David Remnick]

Welcome to the New Yorker Radio Hour. I'm David Remnick. In 2012, staff writer Ariel Levy sat down with one of the most acclaimed American songwriters of recent years, Lucinda Williams. Williams has released 13 albums and she's written songs for everyone from Mary Chapin Carpenter to Tom Petty. She's a winner of three Grammy Awards. And now here's Lucinda Williams with Ariel Levy.

[Ariel Levy]

A lot of your music strikes me as really spiritual. And you've got God on your belt buckle. And you told me, get right with God, get right with God right on your belt buckle. Just like your song.

[Lucinda Williams]

Yeah.

[Ariel Levy]

And you were telling me that you've got. That you had your house naturally, this.

[Lucinda Williams]

Wall of crosses, different crosses. Yeah, like art, Day of the Dead kind of stuff and Santeria.

[Ariel Levy]

And you got. And both your grandfathers were ministers.

[Lucinda Williams]

Methodist ministers. Yeah.

[Ariel Levy]

So tell us a little bit, if you would, about the role that religion and God have played in your life and in your music. And I'm particularly interested in concepts of sin and redemption which I think come.

[Lucinda Williams]

Up in your music a lot. My dad's father, for instance, was a Methodist minister. You know, he was what I liked, what I describe as a Christian in the true sense of the word. You know, he was for women's rights, he was a CO in World War I and was involved in the Southern Tenant Union's farmer's struggle and all of that, you know, and then my dad, by the time I was born and growing up and everything, my dad described himself as agnostic. So what about you?

[Ariel Levy]

Do you consider yourself agnostic?

[Lucinda Williams]

No, but I don't have, because I don't believe in original sin. So I'm not a Christian, you know, I guess, except I feel like I live my life more like a Christian than a lot of Christians.

[Ariel Levy]

Uh huh.

[Lucinda Williams]

You know, it's all. Everybody knows what I'm talking about. But I just love the folklore and the mythology and the symbolism of it all.

[Ariel Levy]

You know, one of the things I really envy about religious people is that they can walk through life with a sense of destiny. And it seems to me that a lot of artists have that same blessing, you know, like at what point in your life did you know or did you feel that music was your calling?

[Lucinda Williams]

Well, at least probably from the time I was about 12 years old, which is when I started taking guitar lessons. And it was the same year I first heard Bob Dylan, Highway 61 revisited in 1965. There was always a piano around the house because my mother played, you know, music. Books would be laid around and music being played in the house. My dad was listening to everyone from Hank Williams to John Coltrane, Chet Baker, Lightning Hopkins, you know, and so when.

[Ariel Levy]

Did you start writing? When did you start doing your own songs?

[Lucinda Williams]

Well, I mean, I was, you know, fooling around with it and everything, but from the age of probably about 13 or 14, you know.

[Ariel Levy]

And your father is this great poet, Miller Williams. Was he a big influence on you in terms of writing?

[Lucinda Williams]

Yeah, yeah.

[Ariel Levy]

He encouraged you?

[Lucinda Williams]

Yeah, he encouraged me. I mean, you know, there were other writers, poets and novelists in the house, you know, a lot. And he taught at different universities. So I grew up in that academic environment, you know, and it's very, you know, stimulating and just, you know, he'd have people over at the house and it would just be people like, you know, John Clelland Holmes and John Chardy and James Dickey, and that was the environment.

[Ariel Levy]

Tell us a little bit about when you. When you first started playing music, singing as a job, you know, in New Orleans, when you were real young and you were playing in bars. Was that a fun time in your life? Tell us about that a little bit.

[Lucinda Williams]

Well, I mean, you're talking about the first little gig I got in New Orleans. Yeah, I was in between. Well, my dad always wanted me to, you know, get a degree in something so I could have something to fall back on. And we were encouraged to, you know, have a career, whatever it was. So I was at. I got into the University of Arkansas where he was teaching in 1971, and. And I was going down to the Quarter because we had lived there for a while when I was growing up. I went to high school there, everything. So I had some friends there and all. So I was going down to the French Quarter and hanging out, and there was this little folk club called Andy's on Bourbon street, right in the middle of all the strip joints. It was really odd. And anyway, I got offered a little gig plan there, like, you know, three nights a week for tips, which was a huge deal for me. This was in 1972 or something. So I called my dad and I said, you know, I don't want. Instead of coming back to school in the fall, I want to stay down here and do this. And he said, okay. That was probably the biggest turning point in my entire. What became, you know, my career.

[Ariel Levy]

Because he gave you permission to be an artist, essentially.

[Lucinda Williams]

I needed to have his permission, you know, uh, huh.

[Ariel Levy]

Uh huh.

[Lucinda Williams]

And we were talking about that, like, it's important for, you know, kids to have at least one or someone they don't want to disappoint. Doesn't have to be one of your parents, but somebody, you know that you don't want to disappoint them.

[Ariel Levy]

Uh huh.

[Lucinda Williams]

You know, so that was my dad for me. So, you know.

[Ariel Levy]

And then another big turning point after that is when you get your first development deal. And you must have thought. When you moved to la, and you must have thought, my ship is in.

[Lucinda Williams]

I made it, I'm there, I've made it. I was on cloud nine.

[Ariel Levy]

Yeah.

[Lucinda Williams]

Yeah. Well, there was a guy at RCA at the time and he really liked me and, you know, saw something there. So they used to do this back then. They call it a development deal. And this was in 1985, I guess. And they give you enough money to live on for six months or something. It was. And so I had enough for the first time, I didn't have to work a day job. And all I had to do was write some songs. And then they send you in the studio to do a demo tape and hopefully they sign you after that.

[Ariel Levy]

And there were some great songs on that demo tape, weren't there?

[Lucinda Williams]

There's the same ones that ended up on the Rough Trade album, Passionate Kisses and Crescent City and All.

[Ariel Levy]

And Passionate Kisses was the first song that you won a Grammy for.

[Lucinda Williams]

Yeah, that was Mary Chapin Carpenter, years.

[Ariel Levy]

Later, not until 1994, but the Grammy. So she recorded. You win for Best Country.

[Lucinda Williams]

I won for Country Song of the Year. That was kind of a funny thing. It was really, because Mary Chaffee Carpenter was being marketed in the country arena. She picked that song up and recorded it. And at the time, her label or whoever was in charge said, no, we don't want that to be the single. It's not country enough. Mm. And she stood her ground and they put it out as a single and then it won a Grammy for Country Song of the Year.

[Ariel Levy]

And so it wins a Grammy for Country Song of the Year. But it was on that first demo of yours that you did for the development deal, which they didn't pick up.

[Lucinda Williams]

Right.

[Ariel Levy]

That's gotta be gratifying.

[Lucinda Williams]

I got passed on by everybody. Yeah, it's gratifying later on to win.

[Ariel Levy]

A Grammy for a song they didn't pick up.

[Poetry Reader]

Yeah.

[Ariel Levy]

I mean, you could just.

[Lucinda Williams]

Well, I couldn't get signed for Ethics. I mean, because at the time back in the mid-80s, there was no Americana, there was no Alternative country. There was no, you know, all of this. So they didn't know. I literally fell in the cracks according to them, between country and rock.

[Ariel Levy]

But in terms of music, you know, people always give you a lot of credit for having a lot of integrity.

[Lucinda Williams]

Oh, yeah.

[Ariel Levy]

Staying true to your sound, which I can certainly understand. But you think sometimes you. That that's been about fear.

[Lucinda Williams]

It was a lot of. It was just, you know, when I was first starting out, I was, you know, terrified of being overproduced and all of this, you know, because I had seen other folk blues heroes kind of of mine who had made these horrible, horrendous albums. Like the 70s, you know, the disco thing came along and all of a sudden, you know.

[Ariel Levy]

Uh huh. Uh huh. So I think of you as one of the great erotic poets of our time.

[Lucinda Williams]

Wow.

[Ariel Levy]

And it seems like you're really comfortable and really uninhibited as well as really brilliant writing and singing about sex. Do you feel like.

[Lucinda Williams]

Yes, I like to. The truth is, I like to push people's buttons a little bit.

[Ariel Levy]

Uh huh.

[Lucinda Williams]

I think it's from growing up as, you know, with my dad, a poet and all the poets and everything. I mean, they didn't censor themselves. And that was one of the things my dad taught me about writing. Don't censor yourself. You know. So that's the way I approach songwriting. And although I like to do it in a sort of elegant somewhat, you know, it's not like a punk theme. That's a whole different thing, you know, So I don't want to like cram it down people's throats.

[Ariel Levy]

Yeah, you're trying to make people feel something. You're not trying to assault them.

[Lucinda Williams]

Yeah, but so it just made me.

[Ariel Levy]

It is sort of punk. I was just thinking about, wasn't there a thing where a woman, sort of. You were playing Essence and there was a woman at a show who sort of spontaneously.

[Lucinda Williams]

Oh, my God. Yeah. Fervor. She was at the House of Blues in New Orleans and it was after Hurricane Katrina. So there was this really odd energy in the. You know, you could feel it in the whole city, really. This kind of, sort of, kind of subliminal anger or something, you know. Anyway, so I was there with the band. We played Essence and the place was packed and I didn't see it, I didn't witness it, you know, but apparently there was a woman who was there who was masturbating and they called the cops and apparently she was kicking the policeman because she wasn't finished yet. Or something which I could totally understand, you know, So I don't know if she was on ecstasy. I don't know what the hell, but it's a very sexy song. I felt this kind of little pride about that, you know, like, you know, damn. I mean, that's pretty gutsy, not ballsy. I hate saying that about when it's a woman. I hate that.

[Ariel Levy]

Has anything changed about the way you write songs?

[Lucinda Williams]

I feel like I'm more confident now. I feel like I'm actually writing more. I used to just barely have enough songs for one album, but in the beginning, I mean, I was just so painfully shy, and I would just kind of look down like this and, you know, and I still get nervous, you know, but it helps to have a great band behind you, you know, and have that connection and feel secure. And when I first started out, I really didn't think of myself in terms of being a great singer. I mean, so that's one reason I decided to learn how to write good songs.

[Ariel Levy]

Was it Emmylou Harris or somebody?

[Lucinda Williams]

Emmy Lou Harris was another one.

[Ariel Levy]

But who said to you.

[Lucinda Williams]

Oh, yeah, she said one time, you know, your limitations or your strength, your limitations become your strength and all.

[Ariel Levy]

Well, speaking of great songwriting, great vocals, let's have a big round for Lucinda the person.

[Lucinda Williams]

This is called World Without Tears.

[Poetry Reader]

If we live in a world without.

[Lucinda Williams]

Tears.

[Poetry Reader]

How a bruise is fine face to eye palm how with scars fine skin to etch themselves into Heartbroken found a bone if we live in a world without tears how would heart be snow when it stop? How would blood know which body to flow outside of? How would bullets find the gun? And if we live in a world without tears how would misery know which back door to walk through? How would trouble know which mind to live inside of? How sorrow find a home? And if we live in a world without tears I would bruise this fire the face to lie upon how with scars fine skin to etch themselves into how it broken on the bone how bullets find the gun how would sorrow find a home?

[Lucinda Williams]

Thank you.

[David Remnick]

Ariel Levy talking with singer songwriter Lucinda Williams. I'm David Remnick. Please join me next week and until then, have a great week.

[Announcer]

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