Marianne Williamson Would Like to Clarify

Summary

The New Yorker Radio Hour

Episode: Marianne Williamson Would Like to Clarify
Date: August 30, 2019
Host: David Remnick
Guest: Marianne Williamson

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Overview

This episode features an in-depth interview with Marianne Williamson, author, spiritual teacher, and then-candidate for the Democratic presidential nomination. David Remnick explores Williamson’s motivations for running, her perspectives on American politics and spirituality, policy platforms, and public misconceptions about her. The conversation also addresses controversies (such as her stance on vaccines) and her experience as an unconventional candidate.

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Main Theme

Williamson frames her candidacy as an urgent intervention rooted in moral and spiritual principles, not just political policy. She articulates her belief that love, as a political force, can counteract the harnessing of fear and hate, which she sees as driving forces in American politics today.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Why Marianne Williamson is Running (01:08–03:21)

• Motivation: Williamson describes a sense of responsibility shared by many Americans after Trump’s election—an urge to help the country in a meaningful way, drawing on one’s own particular skills.
• Challenge to the Status Quo: She argues that solutions shouldn’t be left solely to entrenched politicians and references major historical reforms driven by “the people,” often grounded in spiritual conviction.
• Quote:

  “Nothing is the same in terms of where we see ourselves in relationship to the rest of our lives, to our country, to the rest of the world… I challenge the idea that only the people whose careers have been entrenched for years... are qualified to lead us out of this ditch.” (01:28–02:20)

2. The Power of Love vs. Fear in Politics (00:43–01:08, 04:30–05:43)

• Spiritual Framing: Williamson critiques Trump for harnessing fear in the American psyche, claiming her approach is to harness love for political change.
• Collectivization of Hate: She identifies how racism, bigotry, and other negative forces have become collectivized and amplified in politics, arguing that love and decency can be similarly organized for good.
• Quote:

  “You have harnessed fear for political purposes and only love can cast that out. …I’m going to harness love for political purposes. I will meet you on that field. And sir, love will win.” (00:43)
  “The problem is not that there are more haters than decent, loving, good people... The problem is that the haters in this country have become collectivized for political purposes. …We could harness all that and change the world.” (04:41–05:33)

3. Williamson’s Policy Vision and the “Moral Economy” (06:08–07:24)

• Four Pillars: Her “moral politics” rest on:
  • Moral economy: Hold capitalism accountable; repeal the 2017 tax cut; restore middle-class tax cuts; end fossil fuel subsidies; government negotiating power for pharmaceuticals; reallocate military spending; tax on billionaire assets.
• Quote:

  “Trickle-down economics is an amoral system that has led to immoral consequences... I think we need capitalism with a conscience.” (06:08–06:31)

4. Cabinet Vision and “Consciousness” (07:24–08:44)

• Cabinet Picks: Williamson says her administration would include people with both government experience and alignment with her values, especially on criminal justice, voter suppression, and white-collar crime.
• Notable Moment: Names Nicholas Kristof as her (hypothetical) Secretary of State — despite his public criticism of her.
• Quote:

  “All the people in my cabinet would have to have a lot of experience in government, but they would also have the consciousness that I wish to bring.” (07:31)

5. Personal History & Encounters with Trump (08:44–10:28)

• Early Meeting: Remembers seeing Trump at Mar-a-Lago in the 1990s, finds his transformation over the years somewhat “mysterious.”
• Refuses to Engage in Personal Attacks:

  “I’m not running on a campaign of personal demonization or personal attack... I can keep it to my conversations about the president’s policies, and that’s all I want.” (10:15–10:26)

6. Clarifying Her Position on Vaccines (10:39–12:30)

• Firm Statement of Support: Williamson affirms the importance and necessity of vaccinations, acknowledges a prior “sloppy” comment, and agrees the government should act in the public interest based on scientific evidence.
• Quote:

  “Vaccinations save lives. …The government absolutely must come down on the side of the public good.” (11:06)
  “That was a sloppy comment that a presidential candidate should not have said.” (11:38)

7. Experience Running for President and Media Perceptions (12:30–14:03)

• Surprised by Hostility from the Left:

  “I didn’t think the left was so mean. I didn’t think the left lied like this. I thought the right did that. I thought we were better.” (13:00)

• Rebuffing Stereotypes: Responds to “crystal gazing kook” narratives:

  “There is no crystal in my home, David. …I’ve never told an AIDS patient not to take their medicine…” (13:24)

8. Lasting Impact and Reparations Policy (14:03–14:59)

• Claim to Leading on Reparations: States she was the first to make reparations a major campaign issue and draws a distinction between reparations and typical race-based policy proposals.
• Quote:

  “Were there other candidates who are talking about reparations? They wouldn’t be talking about reparations if I had not opened that up and made it a pillar of my campaign.” (14:03)

• Challenge from Remnick: Pushback that Cory Booker would disagree; Williamson maintains her claim.

9. Debate Eligibility and Campaign Endurance (15:05–16:00)

• Support Base and Next Steps: Describes encouragement from supporters and her intention to continue running—says she’ll know internally when to stop.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Harnessing Love:
  “I will meet you on that field. And sir, love will win.” (00:43)

• On Historical Change:
  “With every major course correction in terms of social justice … it has, in fact, been an intervention by the people themselves…centered in religious and spiritual [principles].” (02:32–03:15)

• On Economic Policy:
  “Trickle down economics is an amoral system that has led to immoral consequences. …I think we need capitalism with a conscience.” (06:08–06:31)

• On Media Stereotypes:
  “There is no crystal in my home, David. There’s never been a crystal on stage when I’ve talked…” (13:24)

• On Learning from Campaigning:
  “It’s certainly a challenge to practice what you preach.” (13:00)

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Timeline of Important Segments

| Timestamp | Segment Description | |----------------|-----------------------------------------------------------------| | 00:43 | Williamson’s overture to Trump: harnessing love vs. fear | | 01:28–02:20 | On why she’s running for president | | 02:32–03:15 | Spiritual movements and course correction in U.S. history | | 04:30–05:33 | How love and hate have been harnessed politically | | 06:08–07:24 | The “four pillars” of Williamson’s moral politics, economic vision | | 07:31–08:44 | Cabinet philosophy and mention of Nicholas Kristof | | 10:39–12:30 | Vaccine stance clarification and prior “sloppy” comment | | 12:30–14:03 | Campaign experience, stereotypes, and refuting media claims | | 14:03–14:59 | Reparations and policy influence | | 15:05–16:00 | Debate eligibility and persistence in campaign |

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Conclusion

Marianne Williamson uses moral and spiritual language to advocate for political change, urging Americans to harness love instead of fear. She presents a platform of progressive economic reforms and social justice, and addresses controversies openly—clarifying her position on vaccines and refuting mischaracterizations. Amid skepticism and media caricature, she insists that outsiders and nontraditional leaders have historically driven America’s greatest movements for justice and possibility.

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For full context and nuance, listening to the original conversation is recommended. This summary captures the episode’s substantive discussion and perspective.

Transcript

[Marianne Williamson]

From one World Trade center in Manhattan, this is the New Yorker Radio Hour, a co production of the New Yorker and WNYC Studios.

[David Remnick]

Welcome to the New Yorker Radio Hour. I'm David Remnick. Marianne Williamson, who's running for the presidential nomination, has never held national office. She's never held any political office. But she's certainly a public figure. And like our current president, she's been a best selling authority for decades. Her books on self help topics include A Woman's Worth and Healing the Soul of America. She's a close friend of Oprah's and she frames her critique of Donald Trump not in political terms, not in policy terms, but in spiritual terms.

[Marianne Williamson]

This man has reached into the psyche of the American people and he's harnessed fear for political purposes. So, Mr. President, if you're listening, I want you to hear me, please. You have harnessed fear for political purposes and only love can cast that out. So I. Sir, I have a feeling you know what you're doing. I'm going to harness love for political purposes. I will meet you on that field. And sir, love will win.

[David Remnick]

She impressed some viewers with her convictions, however unorthodox. And after the first July debate, Marianne Williamson was the most googled candidate. I spoke with her about her campaign for the Democratic nomination early last week. I think the fairest question to ask you is very simple. Why are you running for president?

[Marianne Williamson]

Donald Trump being president has changed the world and it's changed the world not only globally in terms of geopolitics, but I think personally for many people. I'm one of millions of people. I'm sure this is true of you and probably everyone listening to this program. To some extent. Nothing is the same in terms of where we see ourselves in relationship to the rest of our lives, to our country, to the rest of the world. And I think that there's a deep question we're all asking, whether it's inchoate or whether very clear and conscious, which is how can I possibly help? And I think we all feel most of us called on some level to use whatever skills we have to try to make a difference at a time such as this. So I challenge the idea that only the people whose careers have been entrenched for years in the limitations of the mindset that drove us into this ditch are qualified to lead us out of this ditch. I think this is one of those times in American history that require what.

[David Remnick]

A spiritual leader above all.

[Marianne Williamson]

Well, can we talk about the narrative of American history? Slavery did not end because the political status Quo of the time decided to end slavery. It ended because with the abolitionist movement that was in fact begun by the early evangelicals and Quakers. So, yes, it came from a religious and spiritual foundation. People rose up. The people stepped in. And with civil rights, the political establishment of the time did not wake up and say, let's desegregate the South. A Baptist preacher named Dr. Martin Luther King and the civil rights movement, the Southern Christian Leadership Conference, rose up. The people stepped in. So, in fact, with every major course correction in terms of social justice in the United States, it has, in fact been an intervention by the people themselves. And to be honest with you, David, yes, it has been centered in religious and spiritual.

[David Remnick]

Absolutely. William Lloyd Garrison played an enormous role. Martin Luther King played an enormous role. Are you putting yourself at that level as a spiritual and inspirational leader?

[Marianne Williamson]

Absolutely not. I did not say that at all. I have been working for 35 years up close and personal with people whose lives are in crisis. And that's one of the things that gives me the insight I have, because I've seen what bad public policy does to people's lives. It's what gives me such a passion about changing that bad public policy. I've been working for years with people who live daily the economic tension and anxiety created by this oligarchic system. The first thing we have to do is to return to principle. This is how you change a life. This is how you change a country, because all that a country is is a group of individuals. So you ask yourself, where am I? And where am I not the person I say I am? The people of the United States need to emotionally and psychologically rebond with the principles of the Declaration of Independence. And those principles are written on marble walls. They're written on parchment. But principles die if they're not alive in us.

[David Remnick]

I'm curious about your tactical emphasis or your genuine emphasis on harnessing. Why do you see that as crucial to beating Trump?

[Marianne Williamson]

What has happened in this country and what has happened in many places in this world is that the worst aspects of human character have been harnessed for political purposes. Racism, bigotry, anti Semitism, homophobia, xenophobia, Islamophobia, etc. No intelligent observer thought that these things didn't exist in the United States. But we thought we had reached a point. We thought we had reached a consensus several decades ago where there were lines past which we would not go on either left or right, that no political, major political entity would give a megaphone to any of these voices. Those levees have fallen now, the problem is not that there are more haters than, than decent, loving, good people. That's not the problem. The problem is that the haters in this country have become collectivized for political purposes. There are a lot of wonderful, decent, loving, really good people out there. We could harness all that and change the world.

[David Remnick]

When you become president, you enter a world of Mitch McConnell. You enter a world of a Senate that is very unlikely to be majority Democratic. You enter a world of all kinds of political realities and obstructions and difficulties. What would happen on January 20th when you become President of the United States? What would a Marianne Williamson administration look like?

[Marianne Williamson]

There are four pillars to the moral politics that I believe that we need in this country at this point. First of all, it has to do with a moral economy. Trickle down economics is an amoral system that has led to immoral consequences. So my sense of what needs to change economically, holding capitalism accountable. I consider myself a capitalist, but I think we need capitalism with a conscience.

[David Remnick]

And what does that mean in terms of policy?

[Marianne Williamson]

Well, we need to repeal the 2017 tax cut, put back in the middle class tax cut, stop the corporate subsidies. Why do we pay $26 billion in subsidies to the fossil fuel companies alone? The government needs to take back its own negotiating power with big pharmaceutical companies. We need to look how much of our military budget is actually money that the military said that they need to provide for legitimate security concerns, and how much above that is money that has to do with short expenditures, that mainly have to do with short term profit maximization for defense contractors. And I agree with Elizabeth. We need that 3% tax on the assets of billionaires and 2% tax on the assets of 50 million and more. These are the kinds of changes on a pure policy level that will begin to transition us back to a functioning democracy and not just a functioning corporatocracy or oligarchy.

[David Remnick]

What would a Williamson administration look like? Who would you bring to the fore in a cabinet in your presidency?

[Marianne Williamson]

So, first of all, all the people in my cabinet would have to have a lot of experience in government, but they would also have the consciousness that I wish to bring. So my Attorney General, for instance, would have to be someone exquisitely aware and alert to the racial disparities in our criminal sentencing, in policing and so forth. And I would also want my Attorney General to be someone who is very aware of white collar crime and very alert to the issues of voter suppression. So really strong, kick ass, progressive Attorney General. Yeah, kick ass.

[David Remnick]

Absolutely kick ass.

[Marianne Williamson]

Now, in terms of Secretary of State well, it's pretty funny about Secretary of State, because my idea of Secretary of state, my fantasy secretary of State, is outside the box. But I thought, wow, this person would be perfect. And then I recently read that person say in the New York Times about my appearance, and in one of the debates, he said, that woman shouldn't even be on the stage.

[David Remnick]

Who was that?

[Marianne Williamson]

I thought Nicholas Kristof would be the best Secretary of State. He should be Secretary of State, the Times columnist. Yes. And because his geopolitical understanding of what is going on in this world is so. To me, he would be. And then what you get under him are the lieutenants. Right. But then I read that he can't stand me, so I thought, well, he probably wouldn't want to work for me.

[David Remnick]

Have you met Donald Trump?

[Marianne Williamson]

No. I saw him once. I was at Mar a Lago for a party when he was married to Marla Trump. Marla Maples, right.

[David Remnick]

How long ago was that?

[Marianne Williamson]

It was a fundraiser for an AIDS organization I had founded. So it would probably have been in the 90s and back then.

[David Remnick]

What did you think of him?

[Marianne Williamson]

I thought about him what I think a lot of people did. He was like this vulgar American character. I didn't hate him. I thought he was. You know, my mother would have found a word for him, a Yiddish word. I'm not going to tell you what Yiddish word is.

[David Remnick]

We allow all Yiddish words.

[Marianne Williamson]

No, no, no, no. It's a word. But I wouldn't have, you know, at that. This is something that I find very mysterious, actually. If you look at interviews with him from the 80s, he was really different. He even looked different, which makes me think. Gives me my own theories about what's involved in all this, which is when you see some features on someone's face change that much. I'll leave it at that. But he.

[David Remnick]

Even when he talk, it's not just aging. What are we talking about?

[Marianne Williamson]

Do your research, David. But he.

[David Remnick]

Wait, wait, what does that mean?

[Marianne Williamson]

I don't want to go into that. It's just that I think that there are a lot of people who have. Who find a lot very curious about the president. But I don't want to go into any of that. But I will say this. When he talked about politics.

[David Remnick]

But wait, you're running on admirably a policy of being straightforward about what you mean.

[Marianne Williamson]

But I'm not running on a campaign of personal demonization or personal attack. I can keep it to my conversations about the president's policies, and that's all I want. And that's all I would want to.

[David Remnick]

Do if I do you think character doesn't matter?

[Marianne Williamson]

Character absolutely does matter. But we were getting into areas here that went beyond character. And I don't need to tell the American people the President's character because the President's character is very obvious for all to see.

[David Remnick]

Now I know this has come up and I know it's controversial and I know there have been different statements on it. So I want to get you on the record and as a parent of someone with a severely autistic child, I want to get straight what you think about vaccinations. I'm just not quite clear on whether you're an anti vaxxer.

[Marianne Williamson]

I am not.

[David Remnick]

Or you're somewhere in the middle or you think vaccinations are right and necessary as I do.

[Marianne Williamson]

Vaccinations have. Look at smallpox, look at polio. Where would we be without vaccinations? Vaccinations save lives. And anytime that there is a medical intervention, there's benefit and there's also risk. And the government absolutely must come down on the side of the public good. I made an admittedly sloppy comment about the removal of exemptions.

[David Remnick]

Tell us what the comment was and how you would correct it.

[Marianne Williamson]

I said that they were draconian. I said that they were Orwellian. I said, well that sounds kind of Orwellian and draconian to me to remove all the exemptions.

[David Remnick]

And how would you say it now?

[Marianne Williamson]

I would not say that it was a sloppy comment that a presidential candidate should not have said fair enough.

[David Remnick]

And so in other words what you're saying is to say, for example the parents, the many parents fact in the Los Angeles area who are trying to get out of vaccines that have to do with measles, they're wrong.

[Marianne Williamson]

The issue of a lot of those people that I've heard is I've heard legitimate questions of people wanting to know why can't the measles vaccine be a separate vaccine. I don't find people who ask those questions to be a bunch of crazy anti vaxxers. I think that everybody is just concerned about the health of our children.

[David Remnick]

Well, that's fair enough. But sometimes even the most earnest and right minded people are just scientifically wrong.

[Marianne Williamson]

Indeed. And the government has to make the decision that based on its evaluation, scientific evaluation is in the best interest of the public. And that's what I would do as President.

[David Remnick]

You've been running for President now for a bit and I wonder what you've learned from it. You've had some good Moments, particularly in second debate. God knows Twitter rushed in behind you and you got an enormous amount and Google as well.

[Marianne Williamson]

What happened the month?

[David Remnick]

And then you've gotten some coverage that portray you as a kind of crystal gazing kook. You've gotten all this. How do you respond to the experience, the life experience of running for president for at least a few months?

[Marianne Williamson]

It's certainly a. What's it like? It's certainly a challenge to practice what you preach. I, I know this sounds naive. I didn't think the left was so mean. I didn't think the left lied like this. I thought the right did that. I thought we were better.

[David Remnick]

Where have you been? And you've been getting it. What's been unfair? Tell me what.

[Marianne Williamson]

Oh, come on. I'm not. You just mentioned crystal gazing. There is no crystal in my home, David. There's never been a crystal on stage when I've talked. I have never told an AIDS patient not to take their medicine. I've never told anyone not to take their medicine. I've never told anyone that their lovelessness created their disease. I've never told anyone they could love enough to cure their disease. I'm Jewish. I go to the doctor. This idea that I'm that person.

[David Remnick]

Let's entertain the possibility that you don't go to the presidency. Is there a way to lose? Well, here. In other words, to have an effect while losing. And what would it be?

[Marianne Williamson]

Of course. Well, I feel. To be honest, David, I feel I've already impacted this conversation. Were there other candidates who are talking about reparations? They wouldn't be talking about reparations if I had not opened that up and made it a pillar of my campaign.

[David Remnick]

Are you saying you introduced reparations? Absolutely. As a campaign decision?

[Marianne Williamson]

I certainly did. And I hope you will.

[David Remnick]

Wouldn't that come as a surprise to Cory Booker and no, it would not.

[Marianne Williamson]

Come as a surprise to Cory Booker. Cory would say, yep, she sure did. Absolutely. Look at my website. Went from the moment I announced in January. I talked about reparations in my opening speech. I first wrote about reparations in Healing the Soul of America, my book that came out in 1997. It has been on my website as part of my main pillar of my campaign since the very beginning in January. And I have talked about the difference between race based policies and reparations. I have a very, very extensive conversation about that.

[David Remnick]

And absolutely, yes, right now, as I understand it, you are not scheduled to be in the next debate.

[Marianne Williamson]

I have the 130,000 unique donors I got 2% at the Monmouth poll yesterday, just like Julian Castro did betray o' Rourke did. I just yesterday morning was asking myself, what's the message here? Am I supposed to just wrap it up? And I thought, well, I'll let my trip to New Hampshire tell me. And when hundreds of people are showing up and everywhere I go, people in airports, you go, don't you leave. You stay in there.

[David Remnick]

Okay, but that happens, in fairness, that happens to anyone candidate who's doing the work, who's running around New Hampshire and Iowa. People come up and say, stay in there.

[Marianne Williamson]

They don't all get what I got.

[David Remnick]

At what point do you say, in other words, what's the determinative factor?

[Marianne Williamson]

I'll know the point. I'll know it in my heart, but it's not yet. I'm running for president.

[David Remnick]

Marianne Williamson, thank you so much.

[Marianne Williamson]

Thank you so much.

[David Remnick]

Marianne Williamson, who's running for the Democratic nomination.

[Marianne Williamson]

David.

[David Remnick]

I'm David Remnick and that's the New Yorker Radio Hour for today. Thanks for listening.

[Marianne Williamson]

The New Yorker Radio Hour is a co production of WNYC Studios and the New Yorker. Our theme music was composed and performed by Meryl Garbus of Tune Yards with additional music by Alexis Quadrado. The New Yorker Radio Hour is supported in part by the Cherina Endowment Fund.

[David Remnick]

It.