Podcast Summary: The New Yorker Radio Hour

Episode: Masha Gessen on the Battle Over Trans Rights
Date: March 10, 2023
Host: David Remnick
Guests: Nebraska Senator Michaela Kavanaugh, Masha Gessen

Episode Overview

This episode tackles the contentious and growing battle over transgender rights in the United States, focusing on the spread of state-level anti-trans legislation and the cultural and political motivations behind these bills. Host David Remnick first interviews Nebraska State Senator Michaela Kavanaugh, who is leading a filibuster against a bill restricting gender-affirming care for trans youth. In the second half, Remnick speaks with acclaimed journalist and author Masha Gessen about the deeper social anxieties fueling the culture war on trans issues, and the challenges for media, politicians, and individuals in grappling with debates about gender identity and rights.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Political Frontlines: Nebraska’s Filibuster Against the “Let Them Grow Act”

• Background on the Bill

  • The “Let Them Grow Act” seeks to ban gender-affirming care for trans youth—including therapy, hormone blockers, and surgeries—in Nebraska (03:04).
  • According to the ACLU, nearly 400 anti-LGBTQ bills are active at the state level nationwide (01:30).
  • The Nebraska Republican majority expected the Act to pass smoothly until Sen. Michaela Kavanaugh began a filibuster.

• Kavanaugh's Motivation & Strategy

  • Kavanaugh sees the bill as a direct attack on trans youth and parental rights:

    “If this legislature collectively decides that legislating hate against children is our priority, then I am going to make it painful. ... Because if you want to inflict pain upon our children, I am going to inflict pain upon this body. And I have nothing, nothing but time.” —Michaela Kavanaugh (01:59)

  • She believes the issue is manufactured from national culture war tactics, not local needs:

    “This enormous concern has come from national political talking points ... It's boilerplate language that's being introduced in every state.” (03:58)

  • Kavanaugh argues the bill undermines core conservative and Nebraskan values of liberty and parental rights.

• Why Are Republican Lawmakers Backing It?

  • Many Nebraska Republicans, she claims, are motivated more by fear of campaign finance retaliation and national party pressure than ideology (08:21):

    “They feel that if they vote against the platform ... money will be poured against them in their reelection.”

  • Despite private expressions of discomfort, few are willing to oppose the bill publicly.

• Constituent Response & Broader Impacts

  • Kavanaugh claims she receives little public pushback from voters, who mostly voice appreciation for her stance (10:36).
  • On the potential cost to her career: she is term-limited, so feels free to push back without personal political risk (11:47).

• Notable Moment: Kavanaugh’s Call to Conscience

  “It's never a good time to do the right thing, and it's never easy to do the right thing. But that doesn't mean you shouldn't do it. ... Be who the children of Nebraska deserve.” —Michaela Kavanaugh (09:47)

2. Masha Gessen: Why the Right Has Seized the Issue of Trans Rights

• The Politics of Signaling & Reaction

  • Gessen sees the wave of anti-trans legislation as “signaling”—a way for conservative politicians to connect with voters anxious about rapid social change:

    “All the autocratic politics ... are past-oriented politics. ... It’s a really convenient signal because ... so much recent, rapid social change concerns LGBT rights in general and trans rights ... in particular.” (17:19)

  • They link the American culture war to similar anxieties manipulated by autocrats globally, like Putin’s Russia, where anti-LGBT rhetoric is associated with a nostalgic vision of national strength (18:19).

• Understanding Fear & The Promise of Control

  • Gessen notes how these politics exploit the discomfort some parents feel toward children’s unfamiliar identities:

    “Promising to take that fear away, promising to take that anxiety away is truly powerful.” (19:18)

• Personal History and Perspective

  • Gessen recounts their early “trans-identified” feelings growing up in Russia, the lack of language for it, and supportive but limited understanding from their family (20:21).
  • They stress the distinction between sexual orientation and gender identity, highlighting the personal complexity and historical evolution of these categories (21:47).

3. The Nature of Gender and Trans Identity: Social and Medical Contexts

• Is Gender a Construct?

  • Gessen references Judith Butler's theory:

    “Gender is imitation without an original.” (23:02)
    This means our ideas about gender are changeable and context-dependent—even biological sex has more variation than often acknowledged.

• History and Visibility of Trans People

  • Gessen challenges the notion that being trans is new, noting examples throughout history—even if they weren’t discussed as “transgender” (25:10).
  • Today, greater awareness leads to more people identifying as trans, changing what it means to be trans and how it is understood.

• Gender-Affirming Care and Political Attacks

  • Gessen explains that current bills lump together various forms of gender-affirming care—social transition, hormones, puberty blockers, and very rarely, surgery—making nuanced and evidence-based policy difficult (27:24–33:11).
  • They describe “gender ideology” as a reactionary term used by autocrats globally (Brazil, Russia, Hungary) to stoke fear and opposition (27:56).

• Notable Quote on Medical Concerns

  “Journalists should absolutely question standards of care. ... But of course, it's become very, very difficult to cover because there are bills ... that lump all of these treatments in the same bucket and seek to outlaw [them]…” —Masha Gessen (30:55)

4. How Media Covers Trans Issues: Lessons, Tensions, and Hope

• Media’s Bind: Existence as a Debate

  • Gessen articulates the challenge for journalists and trans people:

    “It is very difficult ... to avoid engaging with the argument about whether trans people actually exist or have the right to exist. That is deeply painful ...” (35:09–36:20)

• Controversies over Narrative and Representation

  • Gessen objects to the expectation that all perspectives (including those that deny trans identity) must be included in coverage, likening it to giving a platform to views denying someone’s right to exist (36:27).
  • They describe personal backlash from the trans community over discussing gender transition as a series of choices, stressing the diversity of trans experiences and cautioning against one-size-fits-all narratives (37:03–40:56).

• On Detransition Narratives and Regret

  • Gessen says regret is normal in all areas of life, but is hyperbolized in coverage of transition; the media overemphasizes detransition stories compared to their prevalence (42:20).

• Cultural Backlash Moments (J.K. Rowling, Dave Chappelle)

  • Gessen finds value in discussing, rather than canceling, controversial cultural figures—even appreciating some of Chappelle’s jokes as “next-level trans-accepting,” while also respecting that others hear them differently (43:58).

• How Progressives Communicate Trans Issues

  • Gessen critiques the “survival/suicide” framing for trans youth, arguing that more complex, nuanced rhetoric is needed—though admits this is difficult when the political right is so aggressively hostile (46:00).

• Hopes for Better Coverage

  • Gessen wants more writing about trans people where their transness is “incidental,” not always the story’s focus, and calls for complicated, multidimensional reporting on the culture war (47:38).

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

Michaela Kavanaugh (State Senator, on her filibuster)

• “If this legislature collectively decides that legislating hate against children is our priority, then I am going to make it painful. ... And I am going to use all of it.” (01:59)
• “Take your names off of that piece of poop. LB574. Talk to the Speaker. Demand good governance. Be better. Be who the children of Nebraska deserve.” (09:47)

Masha Gessen

• “All the autocratic politics that we see around the world right now are past-oriented politics.” (17:19)
• “Promising to take that fear away ... is truly powerful.” (19:18)
• “Gender is imitation without an original.” (23:02, referencing Judith Butler)
• “Trans issues are absolutely newsworthy because it’s new ... the prevalence of people who identify as trans is new. It’s literally news. ... And most interestingly, ... being trans is unlike anything else. ... Being trans is not a medical condition, but it marries you for life to the medical system.” (37:03–39:00)
• “[Regret] is perfectly normal. ... But we think that something so catastrophic happens to a person who transitions.” (42:20–43:31)
• “I found [Dave Chappelle’s jokes] brilliant and radical. ... The way, for example, he talks about bathroom bills is quite incredible.” (43:58)

Timestamps for Significant Segments

| Timestamp | Segment | |------------|----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------| | 00:10 | David Remnick contextualizes the national focus on trans rights in the culture war | | 01:30 | Introduction to Nebraska “Let Them Grow Act” and Kavanaugh’s filibuster | | 03:04 | Kavanaugh explains her concerns about the Act and why it's being introduced | | 04:54 | Kavanaugh on parents’ rights and the bill’s “disingenuous” nature | | 08:21 | Kavanaugh on campaign finance pressure and political fear | | 09:47 | Kavanaugh calls for conscience and courage from colleagues | | 17:19 | Masha Gessen on signaling, politics of nostalgia, and the rise of anti-trans bills | | 20:21 | Gessen’s personal narrative of gender identity | | 23:02 | The idea of gender as “imitation without an original” | | 27:24 | Gessen on the international weaponization of “gender ideology” | | 30:55 | Gender-affirming care: medical, social, and political distinctions | | 35:09 | The pain of media framing trans existence as a debate | | 42:20 | Regret, detransitioning, and media narratives | | 43:58 | Dave Chappelle, J.K. Rowling, and cultural conversations | | 46:00 | Progressive messaging and its limits | | 47:38 | Gessen’s hope for more nuanced, incidental coverage of trans people |

Conclusion

This episode provides a rich and deeply human look at the legislative, cultural, and individual stakes in America’s ongoing clash over trans rights. Mixing the political realities on the ground with Masha Gessen’s historical, personal, and philosophical insights, the conversation explores not only why the right is so invested in legislating trans identity, but also the very real challenges for journalists and advocates seeking to cover these issues responsibly and compassionately.