Nathan Lane, Getting Serious, Plays Roy Cohn

Summary

Podcast Summary: The New Yorker Radio Hour

Episode: Nathan Lane, Getting Serious, Plays Roy Cohn

Release Date: January 26, 2018
Host: David Remnick
Interviewed by: Michael Shulman
Podcast: WNYC Studios and The New Yorker

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Overview

This episode centers on acclaimed actor Nathan Lane, long regarded for his comedic roles (most iconically, Timon in Disney’s "The Lion King"), as he discusses his venture into more dramatic territory with a focus on his portrayal of the infamous Roy Cohn in Tony Kushner’s "Angels in America." Through a candid conversation with The New Yorker’s Michael Shulman, Lane shares insights about playing Cohn, his own life and career evolution, the intersection of entertainment and identity, and the enduring power of theater.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Transition from Comedy to Drama

• Lane is famed for his comedic performances but is now seeking and embracing darker, more complex roles, epitomized by his portrayal of Roy Cohn.

  • Lane: “I wonder if I can change people's perception of me, because I feel I have more to offer... Not only do I want. I want to challenge myself, but I think I need to.” (07:53)

• The shift began in earnest with "The Iceman Cometh," and continues with projects like "Angels in America" and "The People v. O.J. Simpson."

2. The Contradictions and Humanity of Roy Cohn

• Lane reflects on the real-life complexities of Roy Cohn—famed prosecutor, political schemer, and mentor to Donald Trump—while acknowledging Tony Kushner’s fictionalized portrait in the play.

  • “It's easy to find people who hated him... there were people who loved Roy Cohn and, you know, he was, you know, the devil. But he was very charming and he could be awful and vulgar and he was, I mean, it's endless, the list of contradictions.” (01:45)

• He notes Cohn’s self-loathing, especially concerning his sexuality and Jewish identity, and finds empathy even within Cohn’s vileness.

  • “As vile as he is, I find it sad that he knows he's going to die and he still won't give in. Everything is a fight, and he's never going to give in.” (05:42)

3. The Influence of Cohn on Donald Trump

• Lane draws direct lines between Cohn’s tactics and Trump’s, particularly around relentless aggression and the use of "the big lie."
  • Shulman: “Are there things that you kind of intuitively felt, oh, like this is where Trump learned how to do X?”
  • Lane: “It's always go on the attack... hit them harder than they ever hit you and just keep repeating something and eventually it becomes a truth or a non truth or an alternative fact.” (04:23)

4. Finding Humanity in Villainy

• The challenge and artistry of evoking sympathy for a figure like Cohn, akin to the fascination with Shakespearean villains.

  • “Why are we attracted... Why are we fascinated by Richard III... he's just evil. Yet it's interesting. He's smart and charming and funny.” (06:55)

• Lane details the physicality he brought to the role, influenced by Cohn’s experience with illness and his attempts at control.

  • “He had a tremor... And he would just hold his hand still while he was talking. And I loved that sort of image of him trying to control. Trying to control things. His own disease.” (06:50)

5. Nathan Lane’s Upbringing and Early Career

• Grew up in a challenging home environment—with an alcoholic father and bipolar mother—discovering comedy as a defense and escape.
  • “It was a classic defense mechanism, especially when I being young and was a chubby kid... I became an adult very quickly.” (09:09)
• Theatre became a central force thanks to his brother’s influence, ultimately inspiring Lane’s move to New York in 1977.

6. Coming Out and Navigating Homophobia in Show Business

• Lane recalls coming out to his mother and her difficult reaction (“Oh, I would rather you were dead.” (11:54)), and discusses living openly as a gay man while addressing the complications and risks of public outings versus private life.

  • “I said to Us magazine said, Are you gay? And I said, I'm 40, single, and work a lot in the musical theater. You do the math. What do you need flashcards? Is that not coming out?” (20:15)

• Addresses a specific incident where Jason Alexander inadvertently outed him and discusses persistent homophobia in Hollywood.

  • “Look, I still faced homophobia in Hollywood. It doesn't. It didn't change anything... It was. Really had more to do with my own not being comfortable discussing my, you know, sex life or personal life with total strangers.” (22:11)

7. Love of Theater Over Hollywood

• Lane describes the joy and loyalty he’s found in the theater compared to the volatile film industry, recounting a confrontation with Harvey Weinstein.
  • “You have no power here anyway... It's not that I wouldn't want a film career... there are great roles until you're 90 in the theater.” (23:27)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Nathan Lane on Cohn’s Aura:
  “There were people who loved Roy Cohn... he was, you know, the devil. But he was very charming and he could be awful and vulgar.” (01:45)

• On Cohn-Trump Parallels:
  “It's always go on the attack... Keep repeating something and eventually it becomes a truth or a non truth or an alternative fact.” (04:23)

• On Playing Hateful Characters:
  “He is hateful. And yet why are we attracted. Why is Richard III... just evil. Yet it’s interesting. He’s smart and charming and funny.” (06:56)

• On His Mother’s Reaction When He Came Out:
  “She said, ‘Oh, I would rather you were dead.’ And I said, I knew you'd understand.” (11:54)

• On Live Theater Loyalty:
  “There are great roles until you’re 90 in the theater... So I have been very loyal to it because it’s what I love most of all. And the audience has been very loyal to me in the theater.” (23:29)

• On Harvey Weinstein:
  “He started screaming at me... I said, you can't hurt me. I don't have a film career. Go away. You have no power here.” (23:09)

• On Early Jobs:
  “Singing telegrams were, you know, it was humiliating. You had a bad tuxedo and a felt top hat. It was humiliating for everyone...” (13:20)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• 00:27–01:10: Lane’s career arc; intro to Roy Cohn.
• 01:45–03:32: The contradictions of Cohn and Lane’s research into his personality and final days.
• 03:32–04:52: Cohn’s political impact, links to McCarthy and Trump.
• 04:52–06:24: The psychology of lies, Cohn’s denial of AIDS, and empathy for his struggle.
• 06:24–07:37: Finding the humanity in Cohn and the appeal of villainous characters.
• 07:51–08:52: Lane’s conscious pivot from entertainer to serious actor.
• 09:09–10:58: Early life, Catholic upbringing, theater’s influence.
• 11:37–12:48: Moving to New York, coming out, and the family’s reaction.
• 12:58–15:56: Odd jobs (singing telegrams), first theatrical break.
• 16:36–17:38: The Birdcage, collaboration with Robin Williams, Mike Nichols, and Elaine May.
• 19:41–21:40: Public versus private coming out, Hollywood’s resistance, and the Jason Alexander outing episode.
• 23:09–24:04: Harvey Weinstein confrontation and Lane’s preference for stage work.

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Conclusion

Nathan Lane’s conversation offers listeners an insightful exploration of theatrical artistry, the private and public challenges of being a gay performer in previous decades, and the timeless draw of complex, even venomous, characters like Roy Cohn. The episode balances humor, candor, and reflection, giving a rounded view of Lane’s transformative journey as an actor—and an individual—on stage and beyond.

Transcript

[David Remnick]

Welcome to the New Yorker Radio Hour. I'm David Remnick.

[Nathan Lane]

Hakuna matata. What a wonderful phrase. Hakuna matata. Ain't no passing craze. It means no worries for the rest of your days.

[David Remnick]

Nathan Lane has done many roles and a long career as an actor, but the one you likely know is an easygoing meerkat in the Lion King. And that's how Lane made his name, playing funny men or funny meerkats on stage, on film and on television. In recent years, though, Lane is getting down to more serious and dramatic parts. And now he's playing a villain, Roy Cohn, in Tony Kushner's play, Angels in America. Kushner's play is a work of fiction, but Roy Cohn was a lawyer and a master of the dark arts of politics.

[Nathan Lane]

And there might be other lawyers who have a guilty conscience or feel they.

[David Remnick]

Have to crawl, but I don't have.

[Nathan Lane]

A guilty conscience and I'm not going to crawl before this committee or any committee like it.

[David Remnick]

Cohen was the chief counsel for Senator Joseph McCarthy during the hunt for Communists in the 1950s, and he helped prosecute Julius and Ethel Rosenberg, who were executed for spying. Cohen was close to Richard Nixon and, and later a mentor to the young Donald Trump. And he repeatedly denied that he was gay, although it was well known, and he died of AIDS in 1986. Nathan Lane plays Roy Cohn in the revival of Angels in America that ran in London last year and comes to Broadway in February. Lane recently talked with the New Yorker's Michael Shulman about that role and a lot more.

[Nathan Lane]

It's easy to find people who hated him. They're more than willing to tell you, but I wanted to. There were a group of people who, he had friends and they were very loyal to him and he was very loyal to them. And there were people who loved Roy Cohn and, you know, he was, you know, the devil. But he was very charming and he could be awful and vulgar and he was, I mean, it's endless, the list of contradictions. You know, he was a self loathing homosexual and a self loathing Jewish. You know, like they said he was funny. I don't think he's ever as funny as Tony Kushner has made him in the play. Right. It's Tony's version of Roy and they are different. Sometimes they connect and sometimes they don't. It's his, you know, he didn't die alone at St. Vincent's with an African American nurse berating him. You know, it was, you know, he was at the National Institute of Health in Bethesda. And he had a boyfriend at the time, Peter Fraser.

[Michael Shulman]

Is he still around?

[Nathan Lane]

I think he is. I think he went back to New Zealand. He lives in New Zealand. And he was very devoted to him, and he was very protective of Peter, and Peter was protective of him. And even though he was wildly promiscuous, but he, that was what he did as a sort of ritual. He would have dinner and then he would have sex with somebody, whether either someone he picked up or that he paid. It's weird when you play him, you know, and certainly because now that we know he was Trump's lawyer and mentor, there's this connection now. So there are things that he says in the play and you go, gee, that sounds familiar.

[Michael Shulman]

And it's amazing when you think that, you know, he was a young man and worked for McCarthy and then he was Trump's counsel in that housing discrimination case that came up when he was charging different rates for African American tenants. And it just, it's amazing to think of the lineage of kind of, you.

[Nathan Lane]

Know, well, yeah, no politics. He met Trump and his father, Fred, they were at a club and he went up to him and said, we're in the middle of this case, this discrimination case, and what would you do? And he said, sue them.

[Michael Shulman]

Were there things about being living, breathing Roy Cohn that gave you some insight into Donald Trump that maybe the rest of us don't have? I mean, are there things that you kind of intuitively felt, oh, like this is where Trump learned how to do X?

[Nathan Lane]

Well, certainly, yes. I mean, many of Trump's tactics, it's a more vulgar version of what Roy would have done. But it's always go on the attack. I mean, that certainly all of that is Roy Cohn immediately go on the attack and hit them harder than they ever hit you and just keep repeating something and eventually it becomes a truth or a non truth or an alternative fact? Exactly.

[Michael Shulman]

I mean, he was saying until his dying day that he had liver cancer and that he's not a homosexual. I mean, it's kind of like the idea of the big lie. If you say a lie that's outrageous enough over and over again.

[Nathan Lane]

No, I know. I was talking about this with Joe Mantello because he. We had talked about this interview and I watched it many, many times. Mike Wallace really went after him about. Everyone is saying that you have AIDS and that, you know, you're finally going to come out of the closet. And yes, he denies everything, but he, and he says he has liver cancer. And he's discussing some of the same, either symptoms or the medication is the same for cancer patients as AIDS patients. And as he's saying this, he does this thing where he has trouble swallowing, and it's sort of a physical manifestation of his own not being able to buy his own bullshit. And also, you know, he had many throat problems. He had thrush. And at this point, he was only about six months away from death. I find it incredibly sad. As vile as he is, I find it sad that he knows he's going to die and he's still won't give in. Everything is a fight, and he's never going to give in. You know, he says it in the play. You know, he says, after I die, they'll say it was for the money and the headlines, but it was never the money. It's the moxie that counts. I never waive it.

[Michael Shulman]

So I have a question. You know, this is a really odious character who, over the course of the play, I feel like Kushner himself is struggling to find humanity in.

[Nathan Lane]

Yeah, and it's there. People would come back and say, I can't believe you made me cry for Roy Cohn. Well, you know, he is a. You know, he is a human being. And to see someone. The manifestation of the disease in this version is severe. We do. I do some. There's some physical things that happen. You know, he had a. He had a tremor. He would develop tremors, and it would be in the right hand, and then it would go to the left hand, and he hated having it. And he would just hold his hand still while he was talking. And I loved that sort of image of him trying to control. Trying to control things. His own disease. He is hateful. And yet why are we attracted. Why is Richard iii. Why are we fascinated by Richard II and that character, you know, he's just evil. Yet it's interesting. He's smart and charming and funny. Yeah.

[Michael Shulman]

Yeah. And you've done a bunch of things lately that have really shown a lot of range. You know, besides the Iceman Cometh, you know, the people versus O.J. simpson and now Angels in America. Is this something that you were sort of consciously seeking out?

[Nathan Lane]

Definitely.

[Michael Shulman]

Why was it a story?

[Nathan Lane]

I was doing the Addams Family on Broadway, and as Jackie Hoffman used to say, it's the only musical gay men don't like. And Charles Isherwood in the Times wrote sort of an appreciation piece about me, and it was very nice. And he referred to me as the last of the sort of Great entertainers. And it was tremendously flattering, and I was very touched by it. And yet I thought I'd been an actor for 40 years, and I'm an actor, I'm more than an entertainer. And I said, I wonder if I can change people's perception of me, because I feel I have more to offer and I want. Not only do I want. I want to challenge myself, but I think I need to. The first move towards that, which was a big move, was the Iceman Cometh.

[Michael Shulman]

Well, even before you did the Iceman Cometh, you described your own childhood as bad. Eugene o', Neill. A lot of kids in that situation, especially with you and your siblings kind of having to take care of yourselves, a lot of people would sort of just go inward. Why do you think you chose to be funny?

[Nathan Lane]

Well, I think it was a classic defense mechanism, especially when I being young and was a chubby kid and, you know, before anyone else would make a joke, I would. And. I don't know, I would say, yes. An alcoholic father and a bipolar mother, that's a tall order. And you grow up very fast. That's what had. I became an adult very quickly. You know, I think really what started was. It started with my brother, my oldest brother, Dan. He used to take me. He was the one who took me to New York to see theater. And that's what I was first exposed to theater to and doing school plays, and then eventually thinking, maybe I could possibly do this right.

[Michael Shulman]

How did you fit in in the Catholic school situation? Did you get along with the nuns?

[Nathan Lane]

How were the nuns? They were terrifying. You know, the Dominican nuns, they were the elite task force of very angry women who would beat the shit out of you. You know. You know, Sister Liam Neeson would just, you know, they, you know, and that was when. Before corporal punishment was a no, no. And, you know, some nun would just, you know, she'd walk up and down the aisle and turn around like a Bond villain and slam her hand on the desk and say, who is God? You know, I don't know. I'm seven. I. So that was theatrical. I mean, Catholicism is theatrical. Everyone's wearing. They're all in costumes. You know, they got the nuns in there in the habits and the priests in their frocks, and they're running around and it's all very ritual and it's theater. You know, there's a stage, there's an altar, and they're all angry and horny and just really. It's so fucking ridiculous, you know, and we're worshiping the big man in the sky and grow up. So, yeah, I escaped very soon. Yeah. Good.

[Michael Shulman]

So you moved to New York, I think, in 1977. And I wanted to talk.

[Nathan Lane]

Yes. I started. I moved to New York because. Not only because of show business, but I met someone. I met a guy, and I had to. And I came out to my mother the night before I left to move to New York. I told her I had been telling her that I was seeing a girl because I didn't want to upset her. And then I. So I sat her down and I said, you know, I know I told you I was seeing a girl, but I've been seeing a guy. And she was, like, shocked. She was just so shocked and said, oh, you mean you're a homosexual? And I said, well, I guess so. And she said, oh, I would rather you were dead. And I said, I knew you'd understand. Said, whatever you do, don't tell anyone. I'll tell my brothers. And then she immediately called them and told them. So the immediate family knew right away, but. And then she, you know, she came to terms with it. She. It wasn't easy for her from her background. And then I moved to New York and became a struggling actor. Right, right.

[Michael Shulman]

I know you did a number of odd jobs, things for money when you were a working actor in the 70s and 80s. Can you tell us about some of the jobs you did?

[Nathan Lane]

Two. I only had two. One was at the Harris Poll. I did surveys, political surveys and agricultural surveys, and singing telegrams. I used to deliver singing telegrams. And because I wasn't. I couldn't wait tables. I was just. I could never say, I'll be back in a minute to tell you the specials with any conviction.

[Michael Shulman]

But you could deliver singing telegrams.

[Nathan Lane]

And I have trouble with authority. So, yeah, singing telegrams were, you know, it was humiliating. You had a bad tuxedo and a felt top hat. And it was humiliating for everyone, for the person receiving the telegram. It was humiliating for me. So you, you know, and nobody likes to be sung at. Nobody, you know, unless it's fucking Tony Bennett. And you've paid a lot of money. You don't want. You don't want some guy in a bad tuxedo crooning about your vasectomy. So. So anyway, and then this. And this third one, it sort of led to another part of my career, which was I performed at an Italian wedding at a little Italian restaurant, and they had an accordion player and he was going to accompany me. And while I, you know, started to deliver the Telegram. And I started being heckled by the accordion players. Started making jokes about, you know, and, you know, you've hit a new low when the accordion player is heckling you. So I heckled him back and we had a thing going. We had a, you know, and I finished the telegram. And then the audience, the patrons at the wedding all said, stay, stay. Keep talking. They said, keep talking. So I started to talk and I told them about my life as a sad, struggling actor and singing telegrams and how much I hated the accordion player. And then they'd had enough of me. They said, thanks and they all threw money. And it was like, oh, maybe there's something to this, you know, this talking, telling jokes and talking. I started to have some success because I got a commercial agen. We were in LA for a year or so and this was in 1980. Oh, God. And then I came back to New York to do an ill fated sitcom with Mickey Rooney and Dana Carvey called One of the Boys for NBC. We did 13 episodes. I was with William Morris at the time. And I said, you know, what I really do is theater. And I remember the agent said, why do you want to do theater? She was the head of the theater department. So why do you want to do theater? You just did a TV show, you know. I said, that's really what I do. That's what I love the most. And the first thing they sent me on was a revival of Noel Coward's Present Laughter. That was being. It was starring and being directed by George C. Scott. And that was my Broadway debut, was with George C. Scott and Dana Ivey and a lot of wonderful actors.

[Michael Shulman]

Well, in 1992 you were in this wonderful revival of Guys and Dolls, which I remember seeing as a kid, and it just completely made me.

[Nathan Lane]

How old were you?

[Michael Shulman]

Eleven.

[Nathan Lane]

Eleven, yeah.

[Michael Shulman]

But it completely made me fall in love with Broadway musicals. And that show really led to a string of great musical comedy performances which brought you to Hollywood and notably the Birdcage. So I want to skip ahead to that and we have a great scene to watch from the Birdcage. Let's see it.

[Nathan Lane]

Maybe it is too much to introduce me as his mother on the first visit. Could you tell them I was a relative who dropped in? Val's uncle. Uncle Al. What's the point?

[Michael Shulman]

To be Val's gay uncle Al?

[Nathan Lane]

Oh, I could play it straight. Oh, please.

[Michael Shulman]

Look at you. Look at the way you're holding your glass. Look at your pinky. Look at your posture.

[Nathan Lane]

What. What about you? You're obviously not a Cultural whatever it is. You've never been to a museum and you eat like a pig.

[Michael Shulman]

Albert, these people are right wing conservatives.

[Nathan Lane]

They don't care if you're a pig. They just care if you're a fag.

[Michael Shulman]

Oh, fuck em. Of course you can pass as an uncle. You're a great performer.

[Nathan Lane]

I'm a great director. Together we can do almost anything. Oh, aman. Really? Absolutely.

[Michael Shulman]

We've got five hours. All right, first, get your pinky down. It's up again.

[Nathan Lane]

All right. And your p. Oh, my God. Are you crazy? What are you doing?

[Michael Shulman]

Stop screaming. I'm teaching you to act like a man.

[Nathan Lane]

All right.

[Michael Shulman]

So you had the benefit in that movie of working with two real comedy geniuses, Robin Williams and Mike Nichols.

[Nathan Lane]

Can you tell us about three and Elaine May?

[Michael Shulman]

Absolutely, yes. So what was it like to collaborate with them?

[Nathan Lane]

Oh, yeah, it's a very happy memory. And it makes me, you know, emotional to see Robin. Oh, God, sorry. He, you know, he was so incredibly kind to me. Look, what can I tell you? Mike Nichols, Elaine May and Robin Williams. It doesn't get any better than that. That's what I can say. But that day we were supposed to shoot that scene inside this hotel. And then the cinematographer DP was Emmanuel Lubecki, Chivo Lubecki, who's gone on to win three Oscars. But this was his first really kind of big film. And it took. He would take hours to light things and he didn't like the inside. And suddenly we were going to go do it outside and it had to be 100 degrees in the shade and somebody passed out. An intern passed out. You know, I remember this, the original film. You know, when I first went to New York in the late 70s, this was. It was at the time the most successful foreign film of all time. And it played on the Upper east side for a couple of years. And I remember seeing it, the original film, and just, you know, screaming and thinking, this is so fantastic. It's a French farce. But it's so. It's subversive. It's like the straight people are the villains and the gay people are the heroes, and they're not vill victims and they're, you know, it's wonderful. And so, yeah, I was very, very lucky.

[Michael Shulman]

And this was 1996, I believe. This was before Will and Grace. It was before Ellen came out. It was before Rupert Everett and My Best Friend's Wedding. It was really before. A lot of things happened that changed the atmosphere. But you didn't come out publicly when the movie came out. Why did you decide to not be publicly gay?

[Nathan Lane]

Yeah, well, first of all, I had lived. I was out. I had lived an openly gay lifestyle from the time I was 21. And in 1996, you know, I know the perception was I hadn't come out publicly. I said to Us magazine said, Are you gay? And I said, I'm 40, single, and work a lot in the musical theater. You do the math. What do you need flashcards? Is that not coming out? I mean, I was not. I did not. I was not denying it. I did not say I had a girlfriend or, you know, I look forward to your Kevin Spacey interview.

[Michael Shulman]

So, you know, so I wanted to ask you about something that I remember really very clearly from. I think just to show kind of how sort of ridiculous the atmosphere was around this kind of thing. Then in 1997, they made a movie of Love, Valor, Compassion, which the Terrence McNally play about a group of gay friends. And you had played it on stage, and Jason Alexander played it in the movie, and he gave an interview when it came out and said something like, I'm the first straight actor to play this role. And then that got picked up as, like, jason Alexander has outed Nathan Lane.

[Nathan Lane]

Right.

[Michael Shulman]

And I think the reason that I remember this so clearly is because at the time, I was this closeted gay teenager, and I was like, oh, God, like, anyone can blow your cover at any point. This is terrifying. Like, George Costanza can just come and say he's gay. So I was just. So I was just curious about that, how you experienced that thing.

[Nathan Lane]

Yeah, I remember that. And I was like, you know, well, it didn't really matter. I mean, at that point, you know, as I said, everyone knew. Look, I still faced homophobia in Hollywood. It doesn't. It didn't change anything. It's not like. And, you know, the attack on me was, well, does he think he's going to be a romantic lead? Or, you know, why is he, you know, and it had nothing to do with that. It was. Really had more to do with my own not being comfortable discussing my, you know, sex life or personal life with total strangers. As far as Hollywood and film and television goes, you know, I never made the commitment to nurture that side of my career. We were talking backstage about Harvey Weinstein, you know, and, you know, I hosted once a fundraiser for Hillary Clinton that Harvey put together, and he didn't like some of the jokes I was gonna do. And we got into a big fight before the thing, and he started screaming at me. Really screaming and said, you know, he said, I'll destroy you. And I said, you can't hurt me. I don't have a film career. Go away. You have no power here anyway. It's not that I wouldn't want a film career. It's just, you know, there are great roles until you're 90 in the theater. You know, as long as you have Shakespeare and o' Neill and Miller and Williams and Chekhov and all of them, you'll never run out of great parts. So I have been very loyal to it because it's what I love most of all. And the audience has been very loyal to me in the theater, you know, so, you know, I'm happy with the choice that I made.

[Michael Shulman]

Well, on that note, thank you, audience, for being great and thank you so much, Nathan, for being here.

[David Remnick]

That was Nathan Lane at the New Yorker Festival this past fall and he spoke with Michael Shulman. Lane plays Roy Cohn in the widely anticipated revival of Tony Kushner's Angels in America, which opens soon on Broadway. This is the New Yorker Radio Hour. Thanks for listening.

[Nathan Lane]

The New Yorker Radio Hour is a co production of WNYC Studios and the New Yorker. Our theme music was composed and performed by Meryl Garbus of Tune Yards, with additional music by Alexis Cuadrado. This episode was produced with special help from Rhonda Sherman, Eric Malinsky, Alexis Goldberg, David Ohana, Hilary Leichter Griffin, Emily Mann and Jessica Henderson. The New Yorker Radio Hour is supported in part by the Cherina Endowment Fund.