Podcast Summary: The New Yorker Radio Hour

Episode: Nathan Lane, Getting Serious, Plays Roy Cohn

Release Date: January 26, 2018
Host: David Remnick
Interviewed by: Michael Shulman
Podcast: WNYC Studios and The New Yorker

Overview

This episode centers on acclaimed actor Nathan Lane, long regarded for his comedic roles (most iconically, Timon in Disney’s "The Lion King"), as he discusses his venture into more dramatic territory with a focus on his portrayal of the infamous Roy Cohn in Tony Kushner’s "Angels in America." Through a candid conversation with The New Yorker’s Michael Shulman, Lane shares insights about playing Cohn, his own life and career evolution, the intersection of entertainment and identity, and the enduring power of theater.

Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Transition from Comedy to Drama

• Lane is famed for his comedic performances but is now seeking and embracing darker, more complex roles, epitomized by his portrayal of Roy Cohn.

  • Lane: “I wonder if I can change people's perception of me, because I feel I have more to offer... Not only do I want. I want to challenge myself, but I think I need to.” (07:53)

• The shift began in earnest with "The Iceman Cometh," and continues with projects like "Angels in America" and "The People v. O.J. Simpson."

2. The Contradictions and Humanity of Roy Cohn

• Lane reflects on the real-life complexities of Roy Cohn—famed prosecutor, political schemer, and mentor to Donald Trump—while acknowledging Tony Kushner’s fictionalized portrait in the play.

  • “It's easy to find people who hated him... there were people who loved Roy Cohn and, you know, he was, you know, the devil. But he was very charming and he could be awful and vulgar and he was, I mean, it's endless, the list of contradictions.” (01:45)

• He notes Cohn’s self-loathing, especially concerning his sexuality and Jewish identity, and finds empathy even within Cohn’s vileness.

  • “As vile as he is, I find it sad that he knows he's going to die and he still won't give in. Everything is a fight, and he's never going to give in.” (05:42)

3. The Influence of Cohn on Donald Trump

• Lane draws direct lines between Cohn’s tactics and Trump’s, particularly around relentless aggression and the use of "the big lie."
  • Shulman: “Are there things that you kind of intuitively felt, oh, like this is where Trump learned how to do X?”
  • Lane: “It's always go on the attack... hit them harder than they ever hit you and just keep repeating something and eventually it becomes a truth or a non truth or an alternative fact.” (04:23)

4. Finding Humanity in Villainy

• The challenge and artistry of evoking sympathy for a figure like Cohn, akin to the fascination with Shakespearean villains.

  • “Why are we attracted... Why are we fascinated by Richard III... he's just evil. Yet it's interesting. He's smart and charming and funny.” (06:55)

• Lane details the physicality he brought to the role, influenced by Cohn’s experience with illness and his attempts at control.

  • “He had a tremor... And he would just hold his hand still while he was talking. And I loved that sort of image of him trying to control. Trying to control things. His own disease.” (06:50)

5. Nathan Lane’s Upbringing and Early Career

• Grew up in a challenging home environment—with an alcoholic father and bipolar mother—discovering comedy as a defense and escape.
  • “It was a classic defense mechanism, especially when I being young and was a chubby kid... I became an adult very quickly.” (09:09)
• Theatre became a central force thanks to his brother’s influence, ultimately inspiring Lane’s move to New York in 1977.

6. Coming Out and Navigating Homophobia in Show Business

• Lane recalls coming out to his mother and her difficult reaction (“Oh, I would rather you were dead.” (11:54)), and discusses living openly as a gay man while addressing the complications and risks of public outings versus private life.

  • “I said to Us magazine said, Are you gay? And I said, I'm 40, single, and work a lot in the musical theater. You do the math. What do you need flashcards? Is that not coming out?” (20:15)

• Addresses a specific incident where Jason Alexander inadvertently outed him and discusses persistent homophobia in Hollywood.

  • “Look, I still faced homophobia in Hollywood. It doesn't. It didn't change anything... It was. Really had more to do with my own not being comfortable discussing my, you know, sex life or personal life with total strangers.” (22:11)

7. Love of Theater Over Hollywood

• Lane describes the joy and loyalty he’s found in the theater compared to the volatile film industry, recounting a confrontation with Harvey Weinstein.
  • “You have no power here anyway... It's not that I wouldn't want a film career... there are great roles until you're 90 in the theater.” (23:27)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Nathan Lane on Cohn’s Aura:
  “There were people who loved Roy Cohn... he was, you know, the devil. But he was very charming and he could be awful and vulgar.” (01:45)

• On Cohn-Trump Parallels:
  “It's always go on the attack... Keep repeating something and eventually it becomes a truth or a non truth or an alternative fact.” (04:23)

• On Playing Hateful Characters:
  “He is hateful. And yet why are we attracted. Why is Richard III... just evil. Yet it’s interesting. He’s smart and charming and funny.” (06:56)

• On His Mother’s Reaction When He Came Out:
  “She said, ‘Oh, I would rather you were dead.’ And I said, I knew you'd understand.” (11:54)

• On Live Theater Loyalty:
  “There are great roles until you’re 90 in the theater... So I have been very loyal to it because it’s what I love most of all. And the audience has been very loyal to me in the theater.” (23:29)

• On Harvey Weinstein:
  “He started screaming at me... I said, you can't hurt me. I don't have a film career. Go away. You have no power here.” (23:09)

• On Early Jobs:
  “Singing telegrams were, you know, it was humiliating. You had a bad tuxedo and a felt top hat. It was humiliating for everyone...” (13:20)

Timestamps for Key Segments

• 00:27–01:10: Lane’s career arc; intro to Roy Cohn.
• 01:45–03:32: The contradictions of Cohn and Lane’s research into his personality and final days.
• 03:32–04:52: Cohn’s political impact, links to McCarthy and Trump.
• 04:52–06:24: The psychology of lies, Cohn’s denial of AIDS, and empathy for his struggle.
• 06:24–07:37: Finding the humanity in Cohn and the appeal of villainous characters.
• 07:51–08:52: Lane’s conscious pivot from entertainer to serious actor.
• 09:09–10:58: Early life, Catholic upbringing, theater’s influence.
• 11:37–12:48: Moving to New York, coming out, and the family’s reaction.
• 12:58–15:56: Odd jobs (singing telegrams), first theatrical break.
• 16:36–17:38: The Birdcage, collaboration with Robin Williams, Mike Nichols, and Elaine May.
• 19:41–21:40: Public versus private coming out, Hollywood’s resistance, and the Jason Alexander outing episode.
• 23:09–24:04: Harvey Weinstein confrontation and Lane’s preference for stage work.

Conclusion

Nathan Lane’s conversation offers listeners an insightful exploration of theatrical artistry, the private and public challenges of being a gay performer in previous decades, and the timeless draw of complex, even venomous, characters like Roy Cohn. The episode balances humor, candor, and reflection, giving a rounded view of Lane’s transformative journey as an actor—and an individual—on stage and beyond.