Podcast Summary: The New Yorker Radio Hour

Episode: "Okja" and Other Strange Stories by Jon Ronson

Date: June 30, 2017
Host: David Remnick
Guests: Jon Ronson, Tracy K. Smith (brief segment)
Produced by: WNYC Studios and The New Yorker

Episode Overview

This episode of The New Yorker Radio Hour, hosted by David Remnick, centers on the strange and powerful storytelling of Jon Ronson. It features a lively conversation with Ronson about co-writing the screenplay for the film "Okja," his fascination with odd and extreme personalities, and his investigations into social media shaming, the porn industry, and public figures like Alex Jones. The episode also briefly includes poet Tracy K. Smith, who reflects on nature, creativity, and writer's block.

Main Discussion: Jon Ronson on "Okja" and the Weird Side of Storytelling

1. Co-Writing "Okja"

• The Origins of the Film
  • Ronson describes his initial, secretive meeting with director Bong Joon-ho and team, comparing it to joining an exclusive inner circle.
  • Quote:

    "His idea had lived between him and his producer Duho and Tilda Swinton and Tilda's partner, the artist Sandro Karpzo. The four of them had lived with this as a kind of secret for a couple of years. Then I was to be the fifth person brought into it."
    (Jon Ronson, 04:00)

• The Secret Premise
  • The film is about "a giant pig the size of an elephant" that is kidnapped by an evil corporation, with its best friend (a young girl, Mija) on a rescue mission.
  • Reaction:

    "I said I definitely want to be involved."
    (Jon Ronson, 04:47)

  • "Okja" is not a "Babe"-like children's film; thematically, it's closer to Upton Sinclair's The Jungle due to its critique of the meat industry and corporate ethics.
• Tonal Shifts and Satire
  • The film moves from "an enchanting children's film" to "slapstick satire," with elements reminiscent of Terry Gilliam's "Brazil."
    (Jon Ronson, 05:01–05:40)

2. The Challenge of Making Unusual Films in Hollywood

• Ronson and Remnick discuss how unconventional films struggle to get made in Hollywood unless they are small budget, comic book, or franchise films.
• Quote:

  "You know, I have a friend who writes screenplays and he says...with films, unless you're presenting a Marvel comic...it's really difficult."
  (Interviewer, 08:21)

• When the "Okja" script made the rounds at studios, executives were anxious about scenes set in slaughterhouses and dialogue in Korean.
  (Jon Ronson, 08:53)
• Ronson contends that the emotional climax—the slaughterhouse scene that makes audiences cry—would have been cut by studios, muting the film’s power.
• Ronson contrasts "Okja" with polemical films like Linklater's "Fast Food Nation," which are affecting but don't elicit such a deep, human reaction.
  (Jon Ronson, 09:21–10:09)

3. Social Media and Public Shaming

• Discussion turns to Ronson’s book So You’ve Been Publicly Shamed, focusing on social media's capacity for outrage and collective shaming.
• Early examples include the Justine Sacco incident: Sacco tweeted a poorly considered joke, and by the time she landed after her flight, she was a global pariah.
  • Quote:

    "We fell in love with righting wrongs so much that a day without shaming felt like a day kind of picking our fingernails. We lowered our standards."
    (Jon Ronson, 11:37)

• Remnick likens the social media cycle to "a narcotic effect."
  • Quote:

    "So it was like a narcotic effect."
    (David Remnick, 11:56)

• Ronson sees Trump as a product of this polluted digital atmosphere:
  • Quote:

    "Donald Trump emerged from these polluted waters like a kind of mutant fish from the milieu that we all created."
    (Jon Ronson, 12:50)

4. Extremism, Platforms, and Alex Jones

• Ronson recounts his early encounters with Alex Jones at Waco and their infiltration of Bohemian Grove—an early, pivotal story for both men.
• He reflects on Jones’ rise to political relevance and the controversy over Megyn Kelly’s decision to interview him on network TV.
• Ronson, skeptical of "no-platforming," explains the risk of giving extremists mainstream attention, conceding that such interviews can backfire or be manipulated by skilled propagandists.
  • Quote:

    "If we start [no-platforming] all the time, it just becomes unlikable. People move away from us."
    (Jon Ronson, 15:19)

5. All the Strangest People Now in Power

• Ronson points out the oddity and danger of seeing the most extreme figures—once mere fringe subjects—now in seats of global influence.
  • Quote:

    "All the worst people...the most extreme...I've ever interviewed are in power now."
    (Jon Ronson, 16:23)

6. Upcoming Project: "The Butterfly Effect"

• Ronson teases his next big project: "The Butterfly Effect," an investigative podcast about the consequences of the free online porn economy.
  • He identifies "the slaughterhouse" of the porn industry—how tech giants profit while performers lose income and social status.
    (Jon Ronson, 17:21–17:58)
• Stories include the impact of early exposure on minors and the adaptation of former industry workers into bespoke, custom pornography for individuals.
  • Quote:

    "I've spent a lot of time in the world of bespoke porn lately because it's such an incredible window into people's inner lives..."
    (Jon Ronson, 19:17)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• "I definitely want to be involved." (Jon Ronson, on hearing the premise of Okja, 04:47)
• "A day without shaming felt like a day kind of picking our fingernails." (Jon Ronson on social media outrage cycles, 11:37)
• "Donald Trump emerged from these polluted waters like a kind of mutant fish from the milieu that we all created." (Jon Ronson, 12:50)
• On interviewing Alex Jones:

  "Alex Jones will basically walk all over you because he's so good at it."
  (Jon Ronson, 15:19)

• On the adult industry’s transformation:

  "All the money's flowed from the San Fernando Valley... into the pockets of the tech giants... A porn star can't get a checking account... Whereas a tech giant... can get a $362 million loan from a hedge fund."
  (Jon Ronson, 17:58)

• "I've spent a lot of time in the world of bespoke porn lately because it's such an incredible window into people's inner lives..." (Jon Ronson, 19:17)

Additional Segments

Tracy K. Smith: Nature and Creativity (22:06–27:09)

• Walking through Nature
  • Poet Tracy K. Smith, recently named U.S. Poet Laureate, takes listeners on a walk near her home in Princeton, NJ, reflecting on the beauty and solace of green spaces.
  • She discusses the relationship between quiet, silence, and creativity, quoting her teacher Linda Gregg:

    "If you're quiet after about 15 minutes, your mind is imaginative enough to come up with an idea..."
    (Tracy K. Smith, 24:41)

  • Smith finds inspiration in images and nature—especially in bird and deer sightings—offering insights about overcoming anxiety and writer’s block:

    "An image can do such amazing lyrical work and it can free you from the need to make statements and explain." (Tracy K. Smith, 25:08)

• The segment closes with a moment of wonder at a group of deer in the woods.

Timestamps for Key Segments

• [04:00] — Jon Ronson on joining the secretive Okja project
• [04:47] — Ronson’s instant excitement about the film
• [08:21] — Insights into Hollywood’s resistance to originality
• [09:21] — The emotional impact of the Okja slaughterhouse scene
• [10:14] — Social media shaming: the Justine Sacco saga and its lessons
• [12:50] — Trump as a product of toxic digital discourse
• [13:18] — Early encounters with Alex Jones and media controversy
• [15:19] — Platforming extremists and media responsibility
• [17:21] — The real-world "slaughterhouse": Ronson's investigation into the porn industry and "The Butterfly Effect"
• [22:06] — Tracy K. Smith on green spaces and the creative process

Tone and Style

The episode blends wit and seriousness, reflecting Jon Ronson’s signature style—curious, empathetic, and unafraid to investigate unsettling corners of modern life. The conversation is lively and often laced with humor, even when discussing weighty topics such as corporate ethics, social media mobbing, and the fate of those marginalized by technological shifts. Tracy K. Smith’s segment introduces a contemplative, lyrical interlude, underscoring the restorative power of nature and imagination.

Conclusion

This episode delivers a rich and engaging dialogue with Jon Ronson—delving into the making of "Okja," the dark satisfaction of social media shaming, the mainstreaming of extremism, and the untold consequences of tech disruption in the porn industry. Interwoven with literary depth and levity, it is essential listening for those interested in the complexities and oddities of modern culture.