Percival Everett’s “James” Wins a Pulitzer

Summary

The New Yorker Radio Hour: Percival Everett’s “James” Wins a Pulitzer

Host: David Remnick
Guest: Percival Everett
Staff Writer: Julian Lucas
Release Date: May 13, 2025

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Introduction

On the May 13, 2025 episode of The New Yorker Radio Hour, host David Remnick engages in a profound conversation with author Percival Everett. Everett, a highly respected yet niche novelist, recently achieved significant acclaim when his 24th novel, James and James Just Blew Up, garnered both the National Book Award and the Pulitzer Prize for Fiction. Staff writer Julian Lucas, an avid reader of Everett's work, facilitates the discussion, delving into the intricacies of Everett's literary endeavors, particularly his latest Pulitzer-winning novel.

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Percival Everett’s Literary Journey

Julian Lucas opens the dialogue by highlighting Everett’s dedication to exploring complex themes within his novels. He references Everett's previous works, such as I Am Not Sidney Poitier and Erasure, emphasizing Everett's method of using fictional narratives to challenge publishing industry stereotypes and societal prejudices.

"To read Percival Everett is always to grapple with the prejudices and the assumptions and the acts of imagination that we have to make in communicating with one another through fiction and through art."
— Julian Lucas [00:42]

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Reimagining Huckleberry Finn

A significant portion of the conversation focuses on Everett's reinterpretation of Mark Twain's Adventures of Huckleberry Finn through his novel James. Everett explores the character of Jim from a more nuanced and humanized perspective, diverging from Twain's portrayal.

Julian Lucas remarks on the impactful opening of Everett’s novel, noting the deliberate choice to name the character "James" instead of "Jim," which signifies a deeper and more respectful representation.

"I love how the title, because in Twain we know this character as Jim, or, you know, sometimes as more derogatory epithets, but immediately he's announced as James."
— Julian Lucas [01:34]

Everett shares his creative process, revealing that he read Huckleberry Finn repeatedly until it became almost nonsensical to ensure his own voice and interpretation emerged organically rather than merely replicating Twain’s narrative.

"The first thing I did to start this was I read Huckleberry Finn 15 times in a row, and I would stop and just go right back to the beginning. Until it became a blur, until it … I needed it to become nonsense because I didn't want to merely regurgitate scenes. I needed to own the material."
— Percival Everett [04:02]

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Themes of Language and Communication

Everett, with a background in the philosophy of language, delves into how slavery historically shaped communication among the oppressed. He critiques the portrayal of enslaved individuals in media, specifically referencing the film 12 Years a Slave for its unrealistic depiction of slaves understanding each other's language.

"People who are oppressed find a way to talk to each other that does not allow their oppressors to understand what they are saying."
— Percival Everett [06:43]

The discussion highlights Everett's focus on language miscommunication as a tool to explore deeper societal issues, emphasizing how enslaved people used language creatively to assert their humanity and resilience.

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Humor as a Literary Device

Everett’s use of humor, even in dark narratives, is another focal point. While his novel The Trees serves as a dark satire on the legacy of lynching in the U.S., Everett employs humor not as traditional jokes but as irony embedded in the human condition.

"I don't know how to be funny. If I try to write funny, I think I fail again. The lessons I've learned from Twain is that humor exists in the irony of the situation."
— Percival Everett [08:40]

This approach allows Everett to address heavy themes while providing a layer of complexity and relatability to his characters and their experiences.

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Cultural Relevance and Contemporary Resonance

Julian Lucas draws parallels between the themes in James and current social dynamics, particularly in the wake of the Black Lives Matter movement. Everett acknowledges the progress made in the literary world for African American writers but also points out the persistent issues of racial stereotypes in media.

"We have more [African American writers], but we haven't gotten rid of this baggage."
— Percival Everett [12:57]

He expresses frustration with the continued portrayal of African Americans in stereotypical roles, emphasizing that while representation has improved, underlying prejudices remain entrenched in societal narratives.

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Reevaluating Huck Finn’s Legacy

The conversation also touches on the controversial legacy of Adventures of Huckleberry Finn. Everett discusses the dichotomy of the novel being both celebrated by African American writers and criticized by those advocating for the removal of racially charged language.

"It's all about intention and meaning. It behooves fascists to ban it because there is a proper and direct and interrogation of what it's like to live in a world where slavery is brilliant."
— Percival Everett [18:43]

Everett argues that the novel offers a critical exploration of American character and historical contradictions, making it a vital, albeit contentious, piece of literature that reflects the persistent complexities of race relations in the United States.

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Conclusion

Percival Everett's James and James Just Blew Up not only secures a Pulitzer Prize but also ignites meaningful conversations about race, language, and the enduring impact of historical narratives. Through his meticulous reimagining of classic literature and his commitment to addressing societal issues with nuanced humor, Everett continues to solidify his place as a pivotal voice in contemporary American fiction.

"It's an American story. And that honest depiction is probably what scares some people."
— Percival Everett [19:52]

David Remnick wraps up the episode by acknowledging Everett’s significant contributions to literature and the ongoing relevance of his work in today’s cultural landscape.

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This episode of The New Yorker Radio Hour offers listeners a comprehensive exploration of Percival Everett’s literary philosophy and the profound implications of his Pulitzer-winning novel. For those unfamiliar with Everett’s work, this discussion provides valuable insights into his unique approach to storytelling and his unwavering dedication to challenging and reshaping American literary traditions.

Transcript

[Unknown Host]

This is the New Yorker Radio Hour, a co production of WNYC Studios and the New Yorker.

[David Remnick]

This is the New Yorker Radio Hour. I'm David Remnick. Percival Everett used to be a writer deeply admired by critics, but a relatively small number of serious readers. I put it in the past tense. Everett is very much alive because a year ago he published his 24th novel, a book called James and James Just Blew Up. It won the National Book Award, and last week it won the Pulitzer Prize for fiction. Staff writer Julian Lucas is a very close reader of Percival Everett's novels.

[Julian Lucas]

Whether it's his novel. I am not Sidney Poitier, about a character who ends up stuck in the plot of basically every Sidney Poitier movie or erasure, about a black novelist so frustrated by the pigeonholing in the publishing industry that his he writes an elaborate literary prank under a pseudonym. To read Percival Everett is always to grapple with the prejudices and the assumptions and the acts of imagination that we have to make in communicating with one another through fiction and through art. And so when I saw that he was rewriting Huckleberry Finn, I knew that it would be an opportunity not just to read a great narrative, but also to read along with him one of the foundational stories in the American narrative.

[David Remnick]

Julian Lucas talked with Percival Everett last year when the novel James had just come out.

[Julian Lucas]

So I love how this novel begins. I mean, first of all, the title, because in Twain we know this character as Jim, or, you know, sometimes as more derogatory epithets, but immediately he's announced as James. And the reframing you do is just so clear in the very first sentence. And I wonder if you could read for us the first page of the novel.

[Percival Everett]

Okay, see if I can get close here. Those little bastards were hiding out there in the tall grass. The moon was not quite full, but bright, and it was behind them, so I could see them as plain as day. Though it was deep night, lightning bugs flashed against the black canvas. I waited at Miss Watson's kitchen door, rocked a loose step board with my foot, Knew she was going to tell me to fix it tomorrow. I was waiting there for her to give me a pan of cornbread that she had made with Sadie's recipe. Waiting is a big part of a slave's life. Waiting and waiting to wait some more. Waiting for demands, waiting for food, waiting for the ends of days. Waiting for the just and deserved Christian reward. At the end of it, all those white boys, Huck and Tom, watched me. They were always playing some kind of pretending Game, or I was either a villain or prey, but certainly their toy. They hopped about out there with the chiggers, mosquitoes, and other biting bugs, but never made any progress toward me. It always pays to give white folks what they want. So I stepped into the yard and called out into the night. Who dat dare in dat dark like dat?

[Julian Lucas]

What I love about this is you. You take a scene that in Twain is a kind of fun prank played by these two boys, and you immediately make us see it from the bitter, exhausted perspective of a grown man who has to play along with these children's games, essentially because he's a slave. And you hear it immediately in those little bastards. How did you arrive at this voice for Jim?

[Percival Everett]

Well, I don't know.

The first thing I did to start this was I read Huckleberry Finn 15 times in a row, and I would stop and just go right back to the beginning. And so until it became a blur, until it. You know how when you say a word over and over, it finally sounds like nonsense? Well, I needed it to become nonsense because I didn't want to merely regurgitate scenes. I needed to own the material, and that allowed me to own the material. So I was never saying what I thought Twain had said because I couldn't remember what Twain had said.

[Julian Lucas]

I love that it's almost a river like reading experience. You keep going back to the beginning, and I know you have a very high opinion of nonsense and have written essays on it. Did you stop enjoying it after a while? Did it affect your.

[Percival Everett]

Yes, I was sick of it. I wanted to be sick of it.

[Julian Lucas]

How many readings did it take to get sick of it?

[Percival Everett]

Oh, a couple. Once you've read something, you've read it. And I think after three or four, I was really tired of reading it, but I had to keep reading it.

[Julian Lucas]

Do you feel like it's a voice that you found in the book? I mean, you know, when Jim talks to Huck in the Adventures of Huckleberry Finn, he's usually calling him chile and honey in all these sweet, affectionate names. Was there a kernel of the character you created, sort of hidden in Twain's character, or did you kind of have to invent him whole cloth?

[Percival Everett]

You're right, he doesn't. He is not inclined to use the same kinds of terms of endearment that Jim uses in Huck Finn. But it's also because there's a. My Jim is. He's not simple. The gem that's represented in Huck Finn is simple. And that's the Part that Twain wasn't capable of writing. For Twain, a slave was a simple person. And by simple I don't mean uncomplicated. I mean not terribly smart.

[Julian Lucas]

One of the themes you've been most interested in throughout your career is language miscommunication. You study the philosophy of language as a graduate student, and so many of your novels are interested in these kinds of misunderstandings and failures of language. What interests you about the way slavery shaped communication?

[Percival Everett]

I can preface that with a complaint about a film, and that's 12 Years a Slave. When this black man, who has been living as best friends and neighbors and co workers with white America, is stolen away from his home and spirited down to a plantation in the south, he's thrown into a situation with slaves and he can understand what they say, and that can't happen. He does not speak their language. People who are oppressed find a way to talk to each other that does not allow their oppressors to understand what they are saying. And he would be as lost as that slave owner would be listening to the slaves talk to each other. And I was offended by that film because it cheated the enslaved people out of their humanity. The other thing about it is just the humor. People survive with humor in the most dire of straits and the picture of slavery that's painted in literature and film. The people are all just, how would you put it? Bleak. Whereas if they're surviving, they're surviving because of their strength and their irony.

[Julian Lucas]

I'm glad you brought up humor because your work is really known for finding humor in unexpected places. Your novel the Trees is a very dark satire about the legacy of lynching in the US and did you want this book to be funny? Did you want it to be funny in the way that Twain's work is funny?

[Percival Everett]

Well, not funny in that way. And I think naturally, I seek to employ humor as a disarming tool. I don't know how to be funny. If I try to write funny, I think I fail again. The lessons I've learned from. The lesson I learned from Twain is that humor exists in the irony of the situation. I can't write jokes, but I can find the humor in the human condition.

[Julian Lucas]

In your story, James isn't just running to freedom, he's also reading and writing about it. And throughout the book, he hallucinates these very funny debates with philosophers like Voltaire and John Locke. And you put them in the middle of these really dramatic moments when he's been bitten by a rattlesnake and he's hallucinating or he's trying to catch a fish with his bare hands. I wonder if you would read one of these moments for us from page 48.

[Percival Everett]

I was in Judge Thatcher's library, a place where I had spent many afternoons while he was out at work or hunting ducks. I could see books in front of me. I had read them secretly. But this time, in this fever dream, I was able to read without fear of being discovered. Ed wondered every time I sneaked in there what white people would do to a slave who had learned how to read. What would they do to a slave who had taught the other slaves to read? What would they do to a slave who knew what a hypotenuse was, what irony meant, how retribution was spelled. I was burning up with fever, fading in and out of consciousness, focusing and refocusing on Huck's face. Francois Marie Aquat de Voltaire put a fat stick into a fire. His delicate fingers held the wood for what seemed like too long a time. I'm afraid there's no more wood, I said. Which is fine, because I am hot enough. Too hot.

[David Remnick]

Percival Leverett, reading from his Pulitzer Award winning novel James, will continue in a moment.

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This episode is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. You chose to hit play on this podcast today. Smart choice. Make another smart choice with Auto Quote Explorer to compare rates from multiple car insurance companies all at once. Try [e-mail], progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates not available in all states or situations. Prices vary based on how you buy on Radiolab. In the beginning, the universe was silent.

[David Remnick]

This change is 270 million years ago. When an insect scrapes one ornamented wing over another.

[Unknown Sponsor]

What happens when a voice emerges and when another is lost?

[David Remnick]

Maybe I never thought of my own voice as something I could lose because.

[Percival Everett]

I could never sing in the first place.

[Unknown Sponsor]

Can something be gained?

[David Remnick]

Surprise plastered their faces when they saw.

[Unknown Sponsor]

Who held the microphone, the first known earthly voice from Radiolab. Listen, wherever you get podcasts.

[Percival Everett]

To me.

[Julian Lucas]

There'S a kind of kismet in the fact that James, your appropriation of Twain is coming out at the same time as American fiction. Cord Jefferson's adaptation of your novel Erasure for our listeners. It stars Jeffrey Wright as a very literary black novelist who is so fed up with stereotyping in the publishing industry that he writes a street novel under a pseudonym as an elaborate literary prank. So you wrote it in 2001, at the height of the vogue for urban lit. Do you think the story still has the same resonance in our post Black Lives Matter era? When, at least for a moment, a lot more attention was given to African American literature. I suppose it's a way of asking, do you think black writers are as confined now as then, or is there just a different kind of confinement?

[Percival Everett]

Well, no, there's a much greater range of work available now. Some really fine writers who've found places in the, in the literary world. And so things have gotten better. A few months ago I stayed up late and I turned on the television at 3am and there was an Abbott and Costello movie, I don't remember the title of it, something like Screams in Africa. And in it were all of these stereotypic black Africans, wide eyed and afraid of everything, running around carrying stuff for white people. And I realized, well, yeah, we have more, but we haven't gotten rid of this baggage. The producers or whatever you call the people who, the programmers of this network saw no problem with airing this. They had a slot, let's use this. And it's that kind of insidious insertion of, of the old stuff that caused so much damage to black psyche that persists.

[Julian Lucas]

You know, I was rereading Huck Finn for this and it just struck me how wildly contemporary it still feels. You know, like Huck's abusive father sounds like a MAGA voter. He's so angry that he saw a rich black man voting that he wants to overthrow the government. And I wonder if it was anything in what's going on in this country today that brought you back to the text and got you thinking about a story from Jim's perspective.

[Percival Everett]

Well, I think that is true and I think it was unconscious more than anything else. The US really hasn't changed in character all that much. And what defines us remains the same. You know, the interesting thing about Huck Finn is it's the first novel that it's not that it's about slavery, it's about a man who was enslaved. You know, when you think of Stowe's novel or some of the slave narratives, they're about slavery. They're not about Americans, white Americans experiencing the shame and the contradictions of the condition of slavery. But here we have this young American, this youth who's having to reconcile moving through the world as a free person while this person, the only father figure in the novel is property.

[Julian Lucas]

Exactly. And Huck's flight from home, his own search for adventure is the emphasis in Twain. And yet there's a much higher stakes story going on for jym because this runaway, it's a matter of life and death for him, even though it's more a matter of adventure and hijinks for Huck. So it's one thing to really love a writer as you love Twain, and it's another to actually try to rewrite their most famous book. And I wonder, was there like a particular moment in the book that you realized Jim had more to say than Twain lets him, or was it more, you know, this would be a great way to sneak onto the high school English syllabi.

[Percival Everett]

It was.

You know, first of all, I have to say that this novel doesn't come out of a dissatisfaction with the Adventures of Huckleberry Finn. I imagine myself in a conversation with Twain doing this. And, and one of the things I think that he and I would both agree on is that he doesn't write Jim's story because he's not capable of writing Jim's story any more than I'm capable of writing Huck's story. In fairness to the novel, it has flawed. It is flawed in that Twain stopped in the middle of it and then came back to it. And when he came back to it, I think there were some mercenary considerations at stake. And so it becomes more of an adventure. Tom Sawyer comes back into the novel and the tone of the novel changes. It's less an exploration of Huck's confusion about Jim and his condition and more of a pure adventure. And so I'm addressing that as well. I'm trying to get past that switch in tone that happens. But more importantly, I'm writing the novel that Twain could not. He was not equipped to do it.

[Julian Lucas]

Something I've always found so ironic about Huckleberry Finn is it's recurrently targeted by well meaning anti racists to either be redacted, to remove the N word from it, or to cut it from syllabi entirely. And yet there are few novels that have been more championed by the greatest African American writers. It was so huge for Toni Morrison and Ralph Ellison. And Ishmael Reed recently wrote an essay which is just a kind of rousing defense of the book and of Twain's insight. What do you make of this discrepancy in the way that it's been both condemned and celebrated?

[Percival Everett]

Well, it's condemned by people who don't read the book and have a reaction to and actually it's an excuse for them. You've got to be against something, I suppose. And apparently the word scares people. Quite frankly, if someone came into my study right now and shouted at me, you dirty N word, I'd be just as offended as if they actually used that six letter word that I just said. It's all about intention and meaning. It behooves fascists to ban it because there is a proper and direct and interrogation of what it's like to live in a world where slavery is brilliant.

[Julian Lucas]

And where con men and hucksters are running rampant.

[Percival Everett]

It's an American story.

And that honest.

Depiction is probably what scares some people.

[Julian Lucas]

Thank you so much.

[Percival Everett]

Certainly.

[David Remnick]

The novelist Percival Everett speaking with staff writer Julian Lucas last year. Everett's novel James just won the Pulitzer Prize for fiction. I'm David Remnick. That's the New Yorker Radio Hour for today. See you next time.

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