Podcast Extra: The "Remarkable Parallels" Between Nixon and Trump

Summary

Podcast Summary: The New Yorker Radio Hour

Episode: Podcast Extra: The "Remarkable Parallels" Between Nixon and Trump
Host: WNYC Studios and The New Yorker
Date: March 2, 2017
Guest: John Dean (Former Nixon White House Counsel, Watergate witness and author)

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Overview

This episode focuses on the “remarkable parallels” between Richard Nixon and Donald Trump, particularly their adversarial relationship with the press, approaches to scandal, and styles of leadership. Through a conversation between The New Yorker's Amy Davidson and John Dean—who served as White House counsel under Nixon and was a key Watergate witness—the podcast draws comparisons between Watergate and the then-unfolding Russiagate, exploring both presidential personalities and broader lessons for American democracy.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Historical Parallels: Nixon’s Letter to Trump & Shared Traits

• The episode opens with Amy Davidson reading a 1987 letter from Nixon to Trump, predicting political success for Trump—a letter he intended to hang in the White House.
• Both Nixon and Trump share a "hatred of the news media and elites," leading to inevitable comparisons, especially as Trump's administration became embroiled in the Russiagate scandal.
  • [00:07] Amy Davidson: “It's not hard to find parallels between the two men, particularly the hatred of the news media and the so-called elites.”

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2. Personality and Language: The Authoritarian Heir

• Third Person and “Royal We”: John Dean notes Trump mimics Nixon’s habit of self-reference in the third person and is “approaching” the royal “we.”
• Both consistently look for enemies and hold deep resentment.
  • [01:45] John Dean: “Like Nixon, you hear Trump speak in the third person. He hasn't started using, as Nixon did, the royal we, but he's approaching that...I see it most in the fact they both look for their enemies and hold great resentment towards those they perceive as their enemies.”

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3. The “Nixonian Environment”: Atmosphere of Deceit and Theater

• Dean describes Nixon’s presidency as a moral abyss: full of performances, secrecy, and a tightly controlled image.
• Many staffers never saw the “real” Nixon due to his theatrical, performative style in group settings; parallels are drawn to Trump’s public persona.
  • [02:50] John Dean: “He was acting, he was portraying the way he wanted to be seen and putting on a little show for the staff and, and a lot of theater. I hear that on the tapes.”

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4. Paranoia and Authoritarianism: Degrees of Control

• Both men are described as “authoritarian personalities.” But Trump is “more overt” and public in his authoritarianism compared to Nixon’s more private approach.
  • [03:53] John Dean: “They're clearly both authoritarian personalities...Nixon did it behind closed doors. On a 10 point scale, I'd put Nixon maybe somewhere between 6 and 7. I'd put Trump at a 10. He is a poster boy for an authoritarian personality.”

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5. Handling of Scandal: Cover-ups and Investigative Defense

• Dean explains how the White House’s reaction to FBI investigations is crucial; openness with investigators signals innocence, while attempts to influence or cover up are damning.
• He references a recent tweet, describing administration pressure on the FBI as the classic start of a cover-up.
  • [04:23] John Dean: “Pushback on an FBI investigation of the White House is better known as a cover up.”
  • Cites Hillary Clinton’s willingness to open her staff to investigation as a contrast.
  • [05:02] John Dean: “That's just not the way you innocent people deal with these issues. I'm sorry.”

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6. Obsession with Leaks—the ‘Unhealthy’ Hunt

• Dean criticizes excessive focus on leaks as harmful, remarking on similarities between Nixon’s and Trump’s efforts to stop staff leaks.
• He also highlights the “remarkable parallel” between Nixon’s secret contacts with South Vietnam and alleged Trump campaign contacts with Russia.
  • [06:46] John Dean: “It's unhealthy. It's again, one of the lessons from Watergate is very clear. Nixon's problems emanated from his deep concern about leaks.”
  • Points out Nixon wiretapped dozens, yet never found meaningful leakers.
  • [08:01] John Dean: “Nixon successfully covered that up. But...he called the FBI just as Trump has done, and pressed them to start investigating...They never found the leaker by doing all that, and seldom do you.”

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7. Attacks on Judges and the Rule of Law

• The podcast discusses Trump’s disparaging of a judge as a “so-called judge,” drawing a parallel to Nixon’s similar disdain for judicial oversight.
• Dean warns that if Nixon had defied the Supreme Court, it would have been an impeachable crisis—and such defiance can create constitutional threats.
  • [09:25] John Dean: “If he had defied the Supreme Court, he clearly would have been impeached just for that. But again, the court doesn't have the US army behind it and the Congress doesn't either. So these are how you create very serious constitutional crises that can end a democracy.”

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8. The Press: Role and Impact

• Discusses the consistent role of the media in holding power accountable, even when they are not ahead of investigators.
• For Watergate, the press kept the story alive and public, which applied real pressure to the Nixon administration.
  • [10:58] John Dean: “The press never cracked the Watergate story...What they did do is they kept it on the front page, they kept the pressure on the story, and they made it a big deal inside the Beltway.”
• The press’s persistence is described as crucial in “forcing” moments of accountability, such as the removal of Michael Flynn.

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9. Revelatory Role of the Press

• The press’s job includes “pushing until the President reveals who he is.”
  • [11:32] John Dean: “I think that is one of their roles, yes.”

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• [01:45] John Dean: "He is very much Nixon’s heir...they both look for their enemies and hold great resentment."
• [03:53] John Dean: "They're clearly both authoritarian personalities...I'd put Nixon maybe somewhere between 6 and 7. I'd put Trump at a 10."
• [04:23] John Dean: "Pushback on an FBI investigation of the White House is better known as a cover up."
• [05:02] John Dean: “That's just not the way you innocent people deal with these issues. I’m sorry.”
• [06:46] John Dean: "It's unhealthy. It's again, one of the lessons from Watergate is very clear. Nixon's problems emanated from his deep concern about leaks."
• [10:58] John Dean: "What [the press] did do is they kept it on the front page, they kept the pressure on the story, and they made it a big deal inside the Beltway."
• [11:32] John Dean: "I think that is one of their roles, yes."

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Important Timestamps

• [00:07] – Nixon’s letter to Trump; setup of parallels and introduction of John Dean
• [01:45] – Trump as Nixon’s “heir” in personality and style
• [03:53] – Discussion of authoritarian personalities
• [04:23] – Cover-ups, pushback against FBI, and lessons from Watergate
• [06:46] – The damage caused by presidential fear of leaks; historical parallel to Vietnam and Russia
• [09:25] – The impact of undermining judicial authority
• [10:58] – The real influence of the press during Watergate and lessons for today

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Conclusion

This episode uses history and personal insider knowledge to illuminate similarities between Nixon’s and Trump’s approaches to power, the media, and scandal. With vivid anecdotes and pointed warnings, John Dean underscores how unhealthy White House cultures and adversarial postures toward oversight—be it from the courts, Congress, or the press—pose grave risks to democracy. The episode urges vigilance and reminds listeners that, while events may not repeat exactly, their patterns and dangers certainly echo through time.

Transcript

[Amy Davidson]

This is a special preview from the New Yorker Radio Hour, December 21, 1987. Dear Donald, I did not see the program, but Mrs. Nixon told me that you were great on the Donahue show. And as you can imagine, she is an expert on politics and she predicts that whenever you decide to run for office, you will be a winner. With warm regards, sincerely, Richard Nixon. That's a letter from Richard Nixon to Donald Trump that the new President said he was going to hang in the White House. It's not hard to find parallels between the two men, particularly the hatred of the news media and the so called elites. But maybe Nixon's blessing was not such a good omen for Trump because the new administration, right off the bat, is engulfed by a scandal inevitably nicknamed Russiagate. That's reminding a lot of commentators of Nixon's Watergate. The New Yorker's Amy Davidson talked about those parallels recently with one of Nixon's inner circle. John Dean was the White House counsel who advised Nixon, but eventually testified against him in the Watergate hearings. Since then, Dean has written extensively about politics and the presidency.

[Interviewer]

You've spent thousands of hours listening to and transcribing Nixon's secret White House recordings. Do you hear now? Do you hear the echoes now? When you hear Trump, he talks about himself rhetorically, would like to talk about himself as Ronald Reagan's heir, but in terms of his language, his style, how much is he Nixon's heir?

[John Dean]

He is very much Nixon's heir. Like Nixon, you hear Trump speak in the third person. He hasn't started using, as Nixon did, the royal we, but he's approaching that. But he does talk about Trump as a Persona that he refers to. I guess I see it most in the fact they both look for their enemies and hold great resentment towards those they perceive as their enemies. I would have thought we all learned a lesson from Nixon having enemies list and things of that nature, but it seems not. We see it playing out with his presidency.

[Interviewer]

What's the most corrosive part of being in a Nixonian environment? Is it the lies? Is it the problems with the rule of law? Is it just the sense of, of enemies everywhere? In your book you describe it as a moral abyss. When you're in an atmosphere like that, what gets to you?

[John Dean]

Well, at first, when I went there and I decided to go to work for Nixon, I thought there was a new Nixon and there was a new portrayal of Nixon. The old Tricky Dick had grown up and had made, matured into a statesman. When I got there, that seemed to be the case his presidency was so tightly run that other than a handful of people in his inner circle, even his White House staff didn't know him. When I would go in with group sessions as opposed to when I had later one on ones, I realized he was acting, he was portraying the way he wanted to be seen and putting on a little show for the staff and, and a lot of theater. I hear that on the tapes.

[Interviewer]

Also, when people talk about Nixon and Trump, they point to some similarities. Vengefulness, signs of paranoia, a wounded resentment toward the elites. Are those parallels that resonate with you?

[John Dean]

Very much so. What I see in Nixon vs Trump and the two personalities is they're clearly both authoritarian personalities, but it's a huge difference in the way they do it. Nixon did it behind closed doors. On a 10 point scale, I'd put Nixon maybe somewhere between 6 and 7. I'd put Trump at a 10. He is a poster boy for an authoritarian personality.

[Interviewer]

This makes me think about a tweet that you posted recently about a story that the White House has denied, alleging that administration officials tried to get the FBI to push back on reports about Russian contacts. You tweeted, I have expertise on this matter. Pushback on an FBI investigation of the White House is better known as a cover up. Tell us a little bit more about that, about that process, about how a cover up happens and how it turns into something that's often said to be worse than the crime.

[John Dean]

If there's any lesson from Watergate or from Iran Contra or the Lewinsky affair, it is that if you don't have a problem, what you truly do is you say to the FBI or whomever come in and talk to my staff, Hillary Clinton, that's what she did on Benghazi and on her email controversy about her server. She made her people available and they all talked openly to the FBI and there was nothing there. That isn't what's happening here. On questions about whether the Trump campaign had relationships with the Russians, knowing they were trying to favor Trump in the election and hurt Hillary, or what happened in that interim between the the election and the inauguration where Flynn was dealing with the Russian ambassador. So if there's no problem with any of those, why not say to investigators, begin investigating. You're not going to find anything. They are just not taking that position. Rather, they're trying to knock down press reports that are getting the various whiffs of these investigations and putting them out there. That's just not the way you innocent people deal with these issues. I'm sorry.

[Interviewer]

How about the wholethe whole. When a White House becomes consumed with the hunt for leakers, for who's talking to reporters, give us a sense of just how unhealthy or healthy from your perspective that can be.

[John Dean]

It's unhealthy. It's again, one of the lessons from Watergate is very clear. Nixon's problems emanated from his deep concern about leaks. They started early in his presidency. They started right out of his National Security Council. Similar to what's happening with Trump. Nixon was dealing with problems in Vietnam. There is an interesting parallel in that Nixon had been accused during the campaign by Lyndon Johnson in 68 of trying to interfere with Johnson's effort to settle the war in Vietnam. And indeed, just recently, we found out that was true. He had, in fact, and that was something that he did a good job of covering up, at least during his lifetime. No one could ever corroborate it, but a historian recently found notes that Haldeman had made when Nixon was giving instructions on these very things to block Johnson's efforts anyway.

[Interviewer]

Do you see, Can I just stop? Do you see parallels between that idea of whether Nixon had contacts about the Paris negotiations and this whole question of members of the Trump administration having contacts with foreign governments before the election?

[John Dean]

It's a very, very remarkable parallel, curious parallel, but Nixon successfully covered that up. But the leak issue that we were talking about, the concern for it, Nixon went over the top. He called the FBI just as Trump has done, and pressed them to start investigating. And he wanted surveillance of the potential leakers. Both the. He had something like, I think, a total ultimately of 17 wiretaps placed on reporters, NSC staffers and even his own speechwriters that were suspect. So what's interesting, they never found the leaker by doing all that, and seldom do you. I don't think Sean Spicer is going to find by looking at people's cell phones whether they've called the press or not.

[Interviewer]

Right.

[John Dean]

But who knows?

[Interviewer]

Let me ask you about Trump's comment the other day about the judge who blocked that executive order being a so called judge. One of the real dramas of Watergate was whether President Nixon was going to treat certain judges like so called judges or if he would concede to their authority. What if Nixon had ultimately kept defying?

[John Dean]

Well, that's a real serious what if, if he had defied the Supreme Court, he clearly would have been impeached just for that. But again, the court doesn't have the US army behind it and the Congress doesn't either. So these are how you create very serious constitutional crises that can end a democracy. Now, I don't know about Trump. Here's a man who's been involved in litigation his entire business life. He has a sister who is a federal judge that is a good federal judge. And. And so he certainly knows the responsibilities and nature of being a federal judge. How particularly they can't defend themselves when they're attacked. So this is going to be a real test of Trump's personality and his governing. Frankly, I was a little encouraged that the fact that the media did have an impact on him and forced him to remove General Flynn as his national security advisor. That was just a steady momentum and drumbeat by the Fourth Estate to keep those issues alive. And finally, he did what he had to do. And so he's showing a few soft spots.

[Interviewer]

I wonder how crucial the press was in reigning and Nixon and what lessons we can draw from that when we're looking at the Trump presidency.

[John Dean]

Well, the press never cracked the Watergate story. They never really were in front of the investigation, and they wrote no stories that ever surprised us in the White House. They were, you know, way behind where the investigation was, any given point. What they did do is they kept it on the front page, they kept the pressure on the story, and they made it a big deal inside the Beltway.

[Interviewer]

You make it sound like one of the roles of the press is to keep pushing until the President reveals who he is.

[John Dean]

I think that is one of their roles, yes.

[Interviewer]

John Dean, thank you so much for speaking with us and sharing your experience.

[John Dean]

Pleasure.

[Interviewer]

Thank you.

[Amy Davidson]

John Dean, who served President Nixon as White House counsel, speaking with my colleague Amy Davidson. Dean's most recent book from 2014 is the Nixon Defense, what He Knew and When He Knew It.