The New Yorker Radio Hour: "Podcast Extra: The Stuff of Fiction"

Released: March 15, 2017
Host: David Remnick
Guests: Tony Kushner (Playwright), Claudia Rankine (Poet), Salman Rushdie (Novelist)
Venue: The Public Theater, Manhattan
Theme: How artists and culture respond to politics in the age of Donald Trump

Overview

In this bonus episode, David Remnick brings together three celebrated authors—Tony Kushner, Claudia Rankine, and Salman Rushdie—for a dynamic on-stage conversation at The Public Theater in New York. The panel, the first in a series titled "Public Forum: A Well-Ordered Nation," explores the implications of Donald Trump’s presidency for artists, the shifting American electorate, and the role of art in turbulent political times. Discussion centers on whether artists face new threats, the racial and political fault lines exposed by Trump’s victory, and the need for creative voices to defend and sustain culture.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. "Enemies of the People"—Does Rhetoric Threaten Artists?

[00:50–03:08]

• Claudia Rankine downplays the threat to artists, viewing "enemy of the people" rhetoric as part of the current reality but not specifically endangering artistic work. She distinguishes the roles of artists versus citizens when facing political upheaval.
  • Memorable Quote: “We are doing what we do, and what we do is inside what is. ... I really don’t think that there is something special that we will do as artists. There might be something different we will do as citizens.” ([01:18], Claudia Rankine)
• Tony Kushner warns of the material ramifications, such as threats to the National Endowment for the Arts.
  • Quote: “The idea that we could, in a very short order, be a country that has no National Arts Endowment ... is shocking and horrifying.” ([02:31], Tony Kushner)
• Salman Rushdie acknowledges artists' unique duty:
  • Quote: “We are the guardians of the culture. At this moment, the culture is under attack.” ([03:29], Salman Rushdie)

2. What Made Trump's Election Possible?

[05:03–10:33]

• Claudia Rankine sees racism as the driving force behind Trump's rise, emboldened by the aftermath of Obama’s presidency.
  • Quote: “We had a black president ... and Trump played on that racism and freed people from the idea of political correctness and empowered them to go forward, and they went forward.” ([05:35], Claudia Rankine)
• When asked about alternate explanations (economic anxiety, globalization), both Kushner and Rankine express skepticism.
  • Kushner: “I just, I think it’s nonsense. ... People frequently vote against their own best interests ... but underneath it is ... a liberated, venomous coil against the loss of, you know, white privilege.” ([06:59], Tony Kushner)
• Salman Rushdie elaborates on America’s shifting coalitions and the paradox of a progressive-leaning populace electing a regressive leader, focusing on voter apathy:
  • Quote: “45.6% of registered voters did not bother to show up to the polls.” ([08:53], Salman Rushdie)
  • He calls the scale of American apathy “a marvel to the world” ([10:06]), which Rankine again links to complacency rooted in privilege.

3. Reassembling the Obama Coalition

[10:33–11:43]

• Rushdie emphasizes the need to “reassemble that coalition which seemed invincible” ([10:33]) and questions why it fractured, while Kushner recalls Obama’s call for citizens to become “anxious and jealous guardians of democracy.”
• Kushner wonders whether fiction and entertainment—now more abundant than ever—have confused fact and fiction in the public mind, potentially contributing to political disarray.

4. The Political Nature of Art

[12:09–14:07]

• Rankine and Rushdie describe how their work emerges from personal and social experience, rather than as consciously political acts. Rankine raises the racial gap in collective political action, questioning the inconsistent engagement of white America with issues affecting black Americans.
  • Memorable Quote: “Where were all of you at Black Lives Matter marches? Why did it take this [Trump’s election] to suddenly politicize you when these things have been going on for years?” ([13:14], Claudia Rankine)
• Rushdie reflects on his assumptions about American society, confessing his earlier belief that “roughly speaking, 25% of America is batshit crazy ... and in the middle is the election,” a belief upended by Trump’s victory ([15:03]).

5. The Path Forward: Engaging the "Malleable" Middle

[16:02–16:47]

• Rankine cites a philosopher—“there is nothing that people must do”—suggesting we may be learning hard truths about our society.
• Rushdie asks how to “bend [the malleable middle] back towards justice.”
  • Quote: “Because we need to have an answer to that.” ([16:25], Salman Rushdie)

Notable Quotes & Moments (with Timestamps)

• Claudia Rankine: “I don’t really think that there is something special that we will do as artists. There might be something different we will do as citizens.” ([01:18])
• Tony Kushner: “The idea that we could ... be a country that has no National Arts Endowment ... is shocking and horrifying.” ([02:31])
• Salman Rushdie: “We are the guardians of the culture. At this moment, the culture is under attack.” ([03:29])
• Claudia Rankine: “We had a black president ... and Trump played on that racism ... empowered them to go forward, and they went forward.” ([05:35])
• Tony Kushner: “People frequently vote against their own best interests ... but underneath it is ... a liberated, venomous coil against the loss of ... white privilege.” ([06:59])
• Salman Rushdie: “45.6% of registered voters did not bother to show up to the polls.” ([08:53])
• Claudia Rankine: “Where were you all at the Black Lives Matter marches? Why did it take this to suddenly politicize you when these things have been going on for years?” ([13:14])
• Salman Rushdie: “If that middle 50% actually is like that, then we're screwed. Then that's America.” ([15:35])

Important Timestamps

• 00:08–00:50 – Introduction by David Remnick; context for discussion
• 00:50–03:08 – Initial reactions to “enemy of the people” rhetoric & its meaning for artists
• 03:29–05:03 – Rushdie on the artist as cultural guardian; First Amendment concerns
• 05:03–10:33 – Why Trump won: race, apathy, the myth of disenfranchisement, economic explanations challenged
• 12:09–14:07 – Political art and the difference between personal and collective engagement
• 15:03–16:47 – Assessing the American electorate and the challenge of moving the “malleable” middle

Summary Takeaway

This deeply frank discussion lays bare the cultural and racial divisions laid open by Trump’s victory. Rankine and Kushner firmly attribute the election to racism and white backlash, while Rushdie adds context regarding voter apathy and the striking disjunction between public opinion on policy and electoral outcomes. The panel explores the enduring challenge for artists to both reflect and shape the culture, questioning if and how creative work can fortify democracy.

At its core, the episode urges listeners—and artists especially—not to take democratic values and progressive coalitions for granted, and to confront hard truths about complicity, privilege, and the responsibilities of cultural guardianship.