Podcast Extra: The Stuff of Fiction

Summary

---

The New Yorker Radio Hour: "Podcast Extra: The Stuff of Fiction"

Released: March 15, 2017
Host: David Remnick
Guests: Tony Kushner (Playwright), Claudia Rankine (Poet), Salman Rushdie (Novelist)
Venue: The Public Theater, Manhattan
Theme: How artists and culture respond to politics in the age of Donald Trump

---

Overview

In this bonus episode, David Remnick brings together three celebrated authors—Tony Kushner, Claudia Rankine, and Salman Rushdie—for a dynamic on-stage conversation at The Public Theater in New York. The panel, the first in a series titled "Public Forum: A Well-Ordered Nation," explores the implications of Donald Trump’s presidency for artists, the shifting American electorate, and the role of art in turbulent political times. Discussion centers on whether artists face new threats, the racial and political fault lines exposed by Trump’s victory, and the need for creative voices to defend and sustain culture.

---

Key Discussion Points & Insights

---

1. "Enemies of the People"—Does Rhetoric Threaten Artists?

[00:50–03:08]

• Claudia Rankine downplays the threat to artists, viewing "enemy of the people" rhetoric as part of the current reality but not specifically endangering artistic work. She distinguishes the roles of artists versus citizens when facing political upheaval.
  • Memorable Quote: “We are doing what we do, and what we do is inside what is. ... I really don’t think that there is something special that we will do as artists. There might be something different we will do as citizens.” ([01:18], Claudia Rankine)
• Tony Kushner warns of the material ramifications, such as threats to the National Endowment for the Arts.
  • Quote: “The idea that we could, in a very short order, be a country that has no National Arts Endowment ... is shocking and horrifying.” ([02:31], Tony Kushner)
• Salman Rushdie acknowledges artists' unique duty:
  • Quote: “We are the guardians of the culture. At this moment, the culture is under attack.” ([03:29], Salman Rushdie)

---

2. What Made Trump's Election Possible?

[05:03–10:33]

• Claudia Rankine sees racism as the driving force behind Trump's rise, emboldened by the aftermath of Obama’s presidency.
  • Quote: “We had a black president ... and Trump played on that racism and freed people from the idea of political correctness and empowered them to go forward, and they went forward.” ([05:35], Claudia Rankine)
• When asked about alternate explanations (economic anxiety, globalization), both Kushner and Rankine express skepticism.
  • Kushner: “I just, I think it’s nonsense. ... People frequently vote against their own best interests ... but underneath it is ... a liberated, venomous coil against the loss of, you know, white privilege.” ([06:59], Tony Kushner)
• Salman Rushdie elaborates on America’s shifting coalitions and the paradox of a progressive-leaning populace electing a regressive leader, focusing on voter apathy:
  • Quote: “45.6% of registered voters did not bother to show up to the polls.” ([08:53], Salman Rushdie)
  • He calls the scale of American apathy “a marvel to the world” ([10:06]), which Rankine again links to complacency rooted in privilege.

---

3. Reassembling the Obama Coalition

[10:33–11:43]

• Rushdie emphasizes the need to “reassemble that coalition which seemed invincible” ([10:33]) and questions why it fractured, while Kushner recalls Obama’s call for citizens to become “anxious and jealous guardians of democracy.”
• Kushner wonders whether fiction and entertainment—now more abundant than ever—have confused fact and fiction in the public mind, potentially contributing to political disarray.

---

4. The Political Nature of Art

[12:09–14:07]

• Rankine and Rushdie describe how their work emerges from personal and social experience, rather than as consciously political acts. Rankine raises the racial gap in collective political action, questioning the inconsistent engagement of white America with issues affecting black Americans.
  • Memorable Quote: “Where were all of you at Black Lives Matter marches? Why did it take this [Trump’s election] to suddenly politicize you when these things have been going on for years?” ([13:14], Claudia Rankine)
• Rushdie reflects on his assumptions about American society, confessing his earlier belief that “roughly speaking, 25% of America is batshit crazy ... and in the middle is the election,” a belief upended by Trump’s victory ([15:03]).

---

5. The Path Forward: Engaging the "Malleable" Middle

[16:02–16:47]

• Rankine cites a philosopher—“there is nothing that people must do”—suggesting we may be learning hard truths about our society.
• Rushdie asks how to “bend [the malleable middle] back towards justice.”
  • Quote: “Because we need to have an answer to that.” ([16:25], Salman Rushdie)

---

Notable Quotes & Moments (with Timestamps)

• Claudia Rankine: “I don’t really think that there is something special that we will do as artists. There might be something different we will do as citizens.” ([01:18])
• Tony Kushner: “The idea that we could ... be a country that has no National Arts Endowment ... is shocking and horrifying.” ([02:31])
• Salman Rushdie: “We are the guardians of the culture. At this moment, the culture is under attack.” ([03:29])
• Claudia Rankine: “We had a black president ... and Trump played on that racism ... empowered them to go forward, and they went forward.” ([05:35])
• Tony Kushner: “People frequently vote against their own best interests ... but underneath it is ... a liberated, venomous coil against the loss of ... white privilege.” ([06:59])
• Salman Rushdie: “45.6% of registered voters did not bother to show up to the polls.” ([08:53])
• Claudia Rankine: “Where were you all at the Black Lives Matter marches? Why did it take this to suddenly politicize you when these things have been going on for years?” ([13:14])
• Salman Rushdie: “If that middle 50% actually is like that, then we're screwed. Then that's America.” ([15:35])

---

Important Timestamps

• 00:08–00:50 – Introduction by David Remnick; context for discussion
• 00:50–03:08 – Initial reactions to “enemy of the people” rhetoric & its meaning for artists
• 03:29–05:03 – Rushdie on the artist as cultural guardian; First Amendment concerns
• 05:03–10:33 – Why Trump won: race, apathy, the myth of disenfranchisement, economic explanations challenged
• 12:09–14:07 – Political art and the difference between personal and collective engagement
• 15:03–16:47 – Assessing the American electorate and the challenge of moving the “malleable” middle

---

Summary Takeaway

This deeply frank discussion lays bare the cultural and racial divisions laid open by Trump’s victory. Rankine and Kushner firmly attribute the election to racism and white backlash, while Rushdie adds context regarding voter apathy and the striking disjunction between public opinion on policy and electoral outcomes. The panel explores the enduring challenge for artists to both reflect and shape the culture, questioning if and how creative work can fortify democracy.

At its core, the episode urges listeners—and artists especially—not to take democratic values and progressive coalitions for granted, and to confront hard truths about complicity, privilege, and the responsibilities of cultural guardianship.

---

Transcript

[A]

David.

[B]

I'm David Remnick, host of the New Yorker Radio Hour. This is a bonus episode of our podcast featuring three of the great minds in literature. Playwright Tony Kushner, poet Claudia Rankine, and the novelist Salman Rushdie. I spoke with them at the Public Theater in Manhattan. This was the first in a series of four evenings we're calling Public Forum A well Ordered Nation. We've invited artists and thinkers and journalists and politicians to discuss how culture can respond to politics in the age of Donald Trump. This is an edited version of our conversation. Hi, I'm David Remnick from the New Yorker.

[A]

Thanks.

[B]

These are my fellow co conspirators and enemies of the people. I'd like to start with all of you, but let's begin maybe with Claudia. After this comment about enemies of the people, I'd like to know what you think this means, what it means for all of us here in this room tonight and what it means in particular for artists. What kind of threat does it pose, if any?

[C]

I actually don't think it does pose a threat to artists because I feel that we are doing what we do, and what we do is inside what is. And this is just part of what is right now. It's a lot of rhetoric coming at us every day. And I don't, I really don't think that there is something special that we will do as artists. There might be something different we will do as citizens.

[B]

Tony, you agree?

[D]

I do. I mean, everything is changing so rapidly on a daily basis now. There are so many directions that, you know, calamity and catastrophe seem to be arriving from, and we're looking at something that none of us have ever seen before. I mean, we don't know what he is. We don't know what's planned. We don't really know who, if anyone, is running the finely tuned machine that he's captain of. So, you know, it's really, really difficult to say. I mean, he's going to apparently destroy the nea, blow the NEA and the Corporation for Public Broadcasting out of the water. I mean, they're so underfunded anyway. It's not going to have, like, an enormous effect. But the idea that we could, in a very short order, be a country that has no National Arts Endowment, Humanities Endowment, is shocking and horrifying.

[B]

Maybe I should clarify with Claudia. You said, I think as recently as a few months ago that this election does represent an emergency. How would you define the nature of the emergency?

[C]

Well, it's an emergency in terms of our lives, in terms of the way we live, in terms of the way we understand certain populations, in terms of their mobility, what they can and cannot. We saw that with the immigration bans.

[B]

Salman?

[A]

Yeah, I think, first of all, the term enemy of the people so far has not really been applied to creative artists. I think it's you, David, So, you know, you will speak to that. I think, first of all, absolutely. I think as artists, I have come to feel, I don't know, let me put this in as grand a way as I can put it, that we are the guardians of the culture. At this moment, the culture is under attack. There is no question there is going to be a strengthening attack on what we think of as the best of America. There is going to be an attack, and we are going to lose a lot of those battles. But we have to, as artists, we have to subscribe to joy and beauty and value and the things that we care about, and we have to make those things. We can't have an America which doesn't have those things. But I do think that there is going to be an attack on the First Amendment. It's already started. And somebody like me who's been living here for almost 20 years and relatively recently a citizen, one of the reasons I'm here is the First Amendment. One of the things that I value about America is the thing enshrined in the First Amendment. We have now a president who appears to be very fond of the Second Amendment, less fond of the one that comes before it.

[B]

I want to get a sense of why you think this happened beyond the talking points of MSNBC and CNN and FOX and all the reasons this has been rehearsed, why you think this happened at this point in American history, that Donald Trump came along and through our electoral system that we do have, however crazy it may be, captured the presidency at this moment. Claudia, you can say it.

[C]

Well, we had a black president, white people, and I mean, not just the people who voted for Trump, but white people are racists. And so race was a part of this. And Trump played on that racism and brought it forward and freed people from the idea of political correctness and empowered them to go forward, and they went forward.

[B]

Are you suggesting that the entire Trump vote was racist and by racists?

[C]

I think, yes, I think it. I do. I think that it had to do. You know, when you have people who don't realize that the Affordable Care act and Obamacare are the same thing and wish to hold on to the Affordable Care act but get rid of the Obamacare, that's about the association, the proximity to blackness, that's it.

[B]

But you know, the alternate explanations, the additional explanations, that it's the result of globalization and deindustrialization and falling behind and feeling ignored and all the rest, that it's not. Well, Tony, you're rolling your eyes, so do better than that.

[D]

I just, I think it's nonsense. I don't think that Trump was elected by disenfranchised people who feel ignored. I think that Claudia's absolutely right. I think that the eight year long hatred, I mean this weird thing, I mean Obama left office with 56% approval, the highest approval rating of any president in modern times. And at the same time you have this bizarre spectacle of people saying, you know, Obamacare is the problem because it has his name attached to it. And it's. But I think that, you know, I mean, people frequently vote against their own best interests. So people who are unemployed have been electing Republicans and re electing Republicans even though it's clearly not getting them jobs. And President Obama did more for the job market than any Republican president has done. But I think that underneath it is, as Claudia said, sort of a liberated, venomous coil against the loss of, you know, white privilege.

[A]

It's strange because one of the things that happened when Obama was elected is the creation of this thing which was called the Obama coalition. And we were led to believe, and the re election of the president seemed to confirm that, that this was a majority in the country, that if you could hold together women, black and Hispanic voters, first time voters and the industrial north, that you had there an unbeatable coalition and that it was the Republican Party that was supposed to be in a condition of enormous distress because the demographics of the nature of the country had moved against them. Now what's happened here is the destruction of the Obama coalition and I think we have to see why that is. And I think part of it is racial bigotry, part of it is misogyny, the extraordinary dislike of Hillary Clinton as a candidate, part of it is apathy. 45.6% is this figure I keep 45.6% of registered voters did not bother to show up to the polls. Now this is very odd because when you ask America on a very wide range of issues what it thinks, what America replies is very progressive. If you ask America what it thinks about immigration reform, what it thinks about gay rights, what it thinks about Planned Parenthood, what it thinks about gun control, a whole range of things, you get very large majorities on the progressive side of that question. And yet America has just elected a leadership which opposes, virulently, opposes all those things. Now, how does that happen? That happens because 45% of the electorate cannot be bothered to express an opinion.

[B]

And what's your explanation for that?

[A]

I wish I knew. American apathy is a marvel to the.

[C]

World, but isn't that tied? You know, I don't want to beat the same drum, but I think the apathy is tied in part to the racism, that there is a sense of white privilege, white internalized dominance, that it doesn't matter because the consequences of not voting would not affect my life.

[A]

But I think what we have to somehow do is to, in this next short period of time, is to think about how to reassemble that coalition which seemed invincible.

[B]

And growing and growing for demographic reasons.

[A]

The question is, how did that break and how can we reassemble it?

[D]

I think that we have. When the president, when President Obama was leaving office and said, you know, that beautiful thing that he said, we have to become anxious and jealous guardians of democracy. I wonder if we've been anxious and jealous enough earlier. There's a vast amount of fiction produced every year. The digital revolution has multiplied that. And I work in an industry in film and television and theater. There's just a completely overwhelming tidal wave of fictional entertainment. And I wonder, have we somehow, I mean, have we contributed to this slippage between what actually is and what isn't?

[B]

I mean, you're blaming yourself for Donald Trump.

[A]

You see, this is a wonderful. This is the classic liberal position. It's my fault.

[D]

Well, I talked to so many people, a lot of people in news, but also a lot of artists who felt. I felt this the day after the election, that they felt like they. I feel like I personally failed. I don't feel I'm not that grandiose. I don't think it was my fault alone.

[B]

Let's talk about political art for a second. You all have written deeply political work. What is the impulse to do it and how do you hope for it to work out into the world once it's no longer yours and it goes out into the world?

[C]

Well, you know, I think when I am working, I'm not thinking I'm making political work. I think I'm making something that is very close to what I'm seeing. And so when one is working, one is working inside the life that one is living. And I think, in a sense, Tony, you're right that you are responsible for what has happened. Because, you know, I think that artists of color, and I hate to do this. But artists of color have been in a state of emergency around what was happening to, you know, dead bodies were in the street. And then I see the women's March. And so clearly it's possible for white women to come out for something. Where were they all those times? Where were all of you? At the Black Lives Matter marches? Why did it take this to suddenly politicize you when these things have been going on for years and years and years?

[B]

Are you suggesting that no white. Are you suggesting that there were no white people at all at Black Lives Matter demonstrations?

[C]

I'm not saying no. I'm not talking about individuals. I'm talking about black, the collective in its mass. In its mass. Because I think this is the problem. White people always think about themselves as individuals. I'm talking about where was white America when these human rights issues were happening? Where were you?

[A]

I've been in various places in the world arguing with various kinds of power over the course of the last long time. But I agree, when I've been writing, whether I was writing about India or Pakistan or radical Islam or whatever, I mean, my feeling was that I was writing a creative act, which came out of my fullest response to being where I was in my life and in the world. And yeah, if that ends up being political, then it ends up being political, but it wasn't. It was a way of trying to embrace as much as I could understand of the place that I was. And I think that's what we're all saying in our different ways. Until, until the election of Trump, I had a mental picture of America which was that, roughly speaking, 25% of America is batshit crazy. And roughly speaking, 25% of America thinks like I do, and in the middle is the election. In the middle, that middle 50% is the election. And my view was wrongly, as it turns out, that that 50%, broadly speaking, was of generous intention, you know, and would not move towards. Towards major asshole behavior. Now, I was wrong, you know, and that is making me wonder, what is that middle 50% of America? What is it? Now? Because if this was a one off because a kind of charismatic shyster managed to con people, that's one thing. You can reverse that. But if that middle 50% actually is like that, then we're screwed. Then that's America.

[C]

Well, you know, the philosopher Gavin says there is nothing that people must do. There is no way that people must be. And I think we are for the first time understanding that that is true. And it's not only true, it's also part of who we are.

[A]

But the question is, if we've got this half the country that's malleable, let's say, how do we bend them back towards, you know, justice? How do we bend them away from what's just happened? Because we need to have an answer to that.

[B]

Salman, Tony, Claudia, thank you so much. And thank you, Claudia Rankine, Salman Rushdie, and Tony Kushner. Join me at the public theater on February 20th. I'm David Remnick. Thanks for listening to this podcast bonus of the New Yorker Radio Hour.