Episode Overview

Podcast: The New Yorker Radio Hour
Episode: Rebecca Traister Is Happy to Be Mad
Date: October 5, 2018
Host: David Remnick
Guest: Rebecca Traister

This episode examines the central role of anger—particularly women’s anger—in political and social change, through the lens of Rebecca Traister’s book Good and Mad: The Revolutionary Power of Women's Anger. The conversation spans current events such as the Kavanaugh hearings and the #MeToo movement, the history of women’s activism, and the complex intersections of race, gender, and power. Traister and Remnick delve into the personal and collective importance of expressing anger, what it reveals about American society, and how it can be harnessed to push for justice.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

The Kavanaugh Hearings and the Visibility of Women’s Anger

• Setting the stage: The conversation occurs on the day of the Brett Kavanaugh and Christine Blasey Ford testimonies.
• Cultural Insight: Traister draws a direct line between the anger seen in current protest (notably the elevator confrontation with Senator Jeff Flake) and the themes of her book, explaining how these moments reveal deep fractures in American society surrounding gender, power, and legitimacy.
  • “We are getting a very full and detailed view of cultures around wealth, white, fundamentally patriarchal power centers... where people are teenagers, the prep school.” (Rebecca Traister, 01:39)

The Legitimacy and Utility of Women’s Anger

• Personal Motivation: Traister explains that writing her book originated from her own emotional confusion and search for professional purpose following the 2016 election.
• Finding Focus: A pivotal moment came during a walk with her husband, who suggested that her palpable anger could itself be the subject of her work:
  • “I just can't think straight, Darius. I'm so mad. And he was like, well, maybe that's what your work is.” (Rebecca Traister, 06:25)
  • “It was the first feeling of, like, clarity and lightness in my head that I'd had at that point in two months.” (Rebecca Traister, 07:07)

The Racial Dynamics of Anger and Activism

• Historical Context: Traister underscores the foundational, often overlooked, activism and thought leadership of Black women, citing figures such as Shirley Chisholm, Florence Kennedy, Rosa Parks, and Mamie Till.
• Intellectual Legacy: She highlights Pauli Murray's critical but under-credited intellectual contributions:
  • “Pauli Murray was credited by both Thurgood Marshall and Ruth Bader Ginsburg for the intellectual work she did laying out the framework for racial and gendered inequity in this country...” (Rebecca Traister, 07:58)
• The Racialization of Emotional Expression: Traister points out that while tears are often interpreted as vulnerability for white women, they do not carry the same sympathy when shed by women of color:
  • “The vision of the traditionally vulnerable femininity that garners sympathy or empathy is very often the suffering white woman. The crying black woman doesn't have that same kind of imaginative hold.” (Rebecca Traister, 11:46)
  • White women’s tears have a history of justifying racial violence, which complicates discussions around vulnerability and anger.

Anger in the Workplace and Emotional Coding

• Personal Story: Traister narrates an experience at the New York Observer where tears prompted by fury were perceived by male colleagues as mere sadness, not anger.
  • “They don't know you're furious. They think you're sad and will be pleased because they got to you.” (Advice from a manager to Rebecca Traister, 09:39)
• Gendered Emotional Norms: The discussion exposes how women are discouraged from expressing rage directly due to social penalties, leading to coded behaviors like crying.

The Challenge of Male Learning in the MeToo Era

• Men’s Awakening: Remnick and Traister share personal and observed experiences of men being shocked by the ubiquity and violence revealed by #MeToo, leading to confusion and defensiveness.
• Traister’s Nuanced Sympathies: While acknowledging her anger at men and patriarchy, Traister expresses empathy for men struggling to adapt to new standards:
  • “We are changing rules partway through the game... There are some people who are caught in the middle who entered the world with one set of expectations... that's no longer acceptable. That has a cost. It has a toll. And I do feel for those guys. That doesn't mean that I don't think the process is necessary.” (Rebecca Traister, 15:00)
• Women’s Conflict: Traister stresses that fervent proponents of the MeToo movement themselves feel conflicted and reluctant to assume the role of judges or executioners.

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Anger’s Power:
  “This book is in large measure about anger, the legitimacy of anger, the deployment of anger historically toward good.”
  — David Remnick, 03:51

• On the Role of White Women and Race in Feminism:
  “I was acutely aware of my identity as a white woman, the degree to which my work has been blinkered by my whiteness, my work on feminism, the degree to which I have been pushed to be better, to think more clearly about race and class. That's been a big part of my evolution as a writer.”
  — Rebecca Traister, 04:10

• On Difficult Change:
  “It asks of us to complicate those incredibly intimate relationships... We are changing rules partway through the game. That's what this process is asking us to do... I do feel for those guys. That doesn't mean that I don't think the process is necessary.”
  — Rebecca Traister, 15:00

• On the Misinterpretation of Women’s Anger:
  “They don't know you're furious. They think you're sad and will be pleased because they got to you.”
  — Anonymous manager to Rebecca Traister, 09:39

Timestamps for Key Segments

• 00:10 – 01:38: Introduction; contextualizing Kavanaugh hearings and the cultural moment.
• 01:39 – 03:18: Traister on narratives of privilege, invisibility of power abuses, and “boys will be boys”.
• 03:51 – 04:10: Remnick and Traister discuss the book’s focus on the legitimacy and utility of anger.
• 06:25 – 07:07: Traister recounts the personal revelation that drove her book’s focus.
• 07:20 – 09:17: The historical centrality of Black women’s anger and activism.
• 09:39 – 10:39: Story from the New York Observer about crying as coded anger.
• 10:34 – 11:42: Discussion of how gender and race shape emotional expression.
• 12:37 – 13:17: Men’s awakening to the realities of harassment/assault (#MeToo).
• 15:00 – 16:02: Traister’s empathy for men adapting to changed expectations and women’s inner conflict.

Tone, Style, and Final Thoughts

David Remnick’s calm, probing style draws out Rebecca Traister’s passionate yet reflective voice. The conversation is earnest, direct, and at times confessional—Traister speaks openly about her own evolution, discomfort, and the messy realities underlying social change. The episode is candid about intersections of gender and race and doesn’t sermonize or offer easy solutions, instead emphasizing the legitimacy of anger as a transformative social force.

The episode closes with mutual appreciation and a restatement of the importance of Traister’s book in helping men and women alike better understand this charged moment in American life.