The New Yorker Radio Hour

Episode: Rolling the Dice with Russia, and a Conversation with Pam Grier

Date: February 21, 2020
Host: David Remnick
Produced by: WNYC Studios and The New Yorker

Overview

This episode explores two distinct but captivating subjects. First, Simon Parkin investigates how war games—some with roots as far back as World War II—are still used today by diplomats and military to strategize around complex international crises, including contemporary tensions with Russia. The latter portion features Michael Shulman’s in-depth, lively conversation with legendary actress Pam Grier, diving into her trailblazing career, personal challenges, and lasting cultural impact.

Part 1: Rolling the Dice with Russia

Main Theme:

How war games serve as tools for military, diplomats, and policymakers to practice responding to global crises—revealing both the unpredictability of international relations and the human factor driving strategic decisions.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

• The Historical Roots of Wargaming

  • Simon Parkin recounts a WWII story where war games, led by the innovative Captain Gilbert Roberts and played by young women in the Women's Royal Naval Service (Wrens), developed new antisubmarine tactics that changed the course of the war ([01:02]–[04:03]).
  • Memorable moment: A seasoned admiral is outsmarted by 18-year-old Janet O’Kell, who had mastered convoy protection strategies through the war game:

    "He was sunk six times out of six. So he said, who was commanding the escort? And it was one of the 19 year old Wrens." – Major Tom Moat ([03:15])

  • The effectiveness of these tactics was immediately proven in actual battle.

• Evolution of Modern Wargames

  • Major Tom Moat explains the shift to "Matrix games," incorporating oral arguments and chance, likened to a cross between Risk, Dungeons & Dragons, and a rap battle ([04:42]–[05:45]).
  • Players represent countries, propose actions, debate their likelihood of success, and resolve disagreements with dice rolls:

    "Now, of course, some people go, oh, you're rolling dice, it's just a game of chance. Well, if you think that, then you don't understand risk." – Major Tom Moat ([06:06])

• Real-Life Impact on Policy

  • David Schlaipack from RAND Corporation describes war gaming with scenarios such as North Korea acquiring nuclear weapons. He recounts how such exercises radically shift mindsets, sometimes shocking senior officials:

    "And then we played the game and he walked out of the room going, holy Christmas. This is a gigantic problem. This changes everything." – David Schlaipack ([07:47])

• Observing a Modern Russia Crisis Simulation

  • Parkin observes a session at UK’s Defence Academy simulating the fallout from the real-life poisoning of Sergei Skripal ([08:17]–[13:28]).
  • "Russia" tries to manipulate public perception and international reputation, is confronted by creative moves from other players, but ultimately still achieves many objectives:

    "So basically the Russians have managed to manipulate events to achieve their goals. Even with five extremely creative antagonists and some bad luck with the dice, Russia still kind of won." – Simon Parkin ([12:02])

• Wargames’ Ongoing Relevance

  • War games are seen as tactile, adaptable tools for understanding and anticipating the actions of nations.

    "As warfare grows ever more complex... the war games adapt. And the knowledge, the understanding they provide could mean the difference between victory and defeat, even between war and peace." – Simon Parkin ([13:18])

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On strategy and humility:

  "That's incredibly effective. That was then made in to naval instructions and radioed out to the convoys and two hours later they sank their first U boat." – Major Tom Moat ([03:42])

• On the seriousness of games in policy:

  "If you don't understand risk, then perhaps you really ought to be in another job." – Major Tom Moat ([06:06])

• On wargaming’s impact:

  "Do we move the needle on policy? Do folks take what they learn from the games and use it to change what they do when they go back to their day jobs?" – David Schlaipack ([06:56])

Timestamps for Key Segments

• [01:02] WWII Wargaming innovation in Liverpool
• [03:15] Janet O’Kell outsmarts the admiral
• [04:42] Modern Matrix games explained
• [06:56] RAND on policy impacts of gaming
• [08:17] Russia/UK crisis simulation
• [12:02] After-action—Russia still "wins"

Part 2: A Conversation with Pam Grier

Main Theme:

A profile of Pam Grier, her groundbreaking film legacy, personal resilience, cultural influence, and reflections on sexism, race, and relationships in Hollywood and beyond.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

• Grier’s Early Career & Cultural Impact

  • Introduced as the first major female action star of “Blaxploitation” films in the 1970s, subverting gender and racial expectations ([14:14]).

    "She was the first female heroine of this genre. She's so much fun to Watch. And was sexy and funny and empowered and really like no one else who had been in movies." – Michael Shulman ([14:40])

• Personal Backstory and Vulnerability

  • Grier recounts her struggle with shyness, trauma, and body image after surviving sexual assault as a child and teenager. Her iconic on-screen confidence was rooted in overcoming real trials ([16:46]–[17:20]).

    "I didn't find myself sexy or pretty. I didn't even shave my legs." – Pam Grier ([17:20])

• Complexities and Criticisms of Blaxploitation

  • Grier confronts the notion that her films perpetuated negative stereotypes:

    "Those aren't stereotypes. We get them from reality. When a woman takes out her earrings and her shoes, she's gonna whoop your behind. Okay? So that's in my movies." – Pam Grier ([18:41])

• Unique Influence and Representation

  • Tarantino’s admiration: Grier’s uniqueness made him rewrite “Jackie Brown” for her.

    "While I've seen Quentin Tarantino point out that one thing he loved about your movies is that you didn't have an equivalent in white cinema. There was no white girl action hero. It was you." – Michael Shulman ([19:46])

• On Race, Gender, and Relationships

  • Candid recollections of her relationship with Kareem Abdul-Jabbar and the cultural, religious choices she faced ([20:32]–[21:42]).

    "I decided on me because I'd seen being married and validated by men in marriage. Some people fall in love with the idea of being in a marriage. But if he decides to take it away from you, how do you hang onto it?" – Pam Grier ([20:46])

• With Richard Pryor – Comedy, Chaos, and Heart

  • Grier recalls a surreal, tender moment rushing Pryor’s injured miniature horse to the vet in a Jaguar ([22:05]–[23:57]).

    "I'm like, oh, my God. Richard's going to have a heart attack. The horse is going to die, and I'm going to get in an accident on the freeway." – Pam Grier ([23:32])
    "He said, you know what? You're funnier than I am. ... That's the purity of where I come from, country. We gonna take care of what we have to take care of." – Pam Grier ([23:57])

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On empowerment:

  "It was okay to slap your mom or push women around... and that was the nature of the beast back in the 50s and 60s." – Pam Grier ([17:52])

• On Black and white feminism:

  "My mom had a lot of white women friends and they weren't allowed to speak back to their husbands like a black woman would. It was different in culture." – Pam Grier ([19:52])

• On prioritizing herself:

  "He was the perfect. He loved jazz, he loved sports. ... But at that day, that day, he kind of took the eraser and went. And I said, okay. But I couldn't make him happy." – Pam Grier ([21:05])

Timestamps for Key Segments

• [14:14] Pam Grier’s emergence in film
• [16:46] Early trauma and its effects
• [18:41] Reality vs. stereotypes
• [19:46] Uniqueness in "Jackie Brown"
• [20:32] Story about Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
• [22:05] Richard Pryor, the miniature horse, and a heartfelt escape

Final Thoughts

This episode blends the suspense and intellectual intrigue of real-world conflict simulation with the warmth, candor, and humor of an American film icon’s personal journey. War games—once chalk lines on a floor—remain vital in preparing for unpredictable crises, while Pam Grier’s story highlights the resilience and complexity of a woman who continually redefined herself in Hollywood and beyond.

Recommended Listening:

• Simon Parkin’s book: A Game of Birds and Wolves
• Pam Grier’s autobiography: Foxy