Podcast Summary:

The New Yorker Radio Hour
Episode: Special Preview: Trump’s Remorseful Ghostwriter
Date: July 18, 2016
Host: Jane Mayer
Guest: Tony Schwartz (co-author/ghostwriter of The Art of the Deal)

Overview

This episode features Jane Mayer interviewing Tony Schwartz, the ghostwriter of Donald Trump's The Art of the Deal. For the first time, Schwartz publicly discusses his experience with Trump, expressing deep regret about his involvement. The conversation explores Schwartz's insights into Trump's character, the challenges of capturing his voice, and Schwartz's current fears about Trump's presidential run.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Why Schwartz is Speaking Out Now

• Schwartz remained silent for almost 30 years after The Art of the Deal, but Trump’s presidential candidacy changed that.
  • Tony Schwartz (01:27):

    "When he decided to run for President... it made me feel that I needed to share what I knew... because I believed he was so ill-suited and dangerous as a potential president."

2. How Schwartz Met Trump & Landed the Book Deal

• Schwartz was a New York magazine writer seeking stories, and Trump was an upcoming real estate figure.
• He met Trump while reporting on housing disputes and noticed Trump's thirst for attention.
  • Tony Schwartz (04:10):

    "He loved the image of himself as a thug... He wants to be the tough guy, and this article made him into the tough guy."

• Later, during a failed Playboy interview, Schwartz spontaneously suggested a book about deal-making, which Trump immediately accepted.
  • Tony Schwartz (06:41):

    "That is quintessential Trump. He's not going to spend a long time reflecting on that or anything else."

3. Decision to Collaborate, and Regret

• Schwartz was conflicted, motivated largely by financial need, but aware of professional and ethical concerns.
  • Tony Schwartz (07:58):

    "I did it for the money. I mean, there's no other way of putting it, Jane."

4. Challenges of Writing the Book

• Trump was disengaged and provided little material. Schwartz had to adapt his reporting method:
  • Tony Schwartz (08:53):

    "He was bored and distracted... He wanted the next sensation, the next distraction, the next source of pleasure."

• Schwartz solved this by eavesdropping on Trump’s phone calls, with Trump’s consent.
  • Tony Schwartz (11:08):

    "I would come in every day and I would sit down... and I just listen with a notebook and I take notes. And he was fine about my doing that because it didn't require any effort on his behalf."

5. Verifying Trump’s Stories & The Truth

• Upon fact-checking, third-party accounts often contradicted Trump’s versions, leading Schwartz to realize Trump’s ease with falsehood.
  • Tony Schwartz (14:00):

    "There wasn't really any distinction for him between the truth and falsehood. All there was was what story will serve me best... for him, lying was second nature."

6. The “Truthful Hyperbole” Problem

• Schwartz coined the phrase "truthful hyperbole" to reconcile Trump’s exaggerations, later worrying about the ethics of this rationalization.
  • Tony Schwartz (15:01):

    "The words truthful hyperbole were a way to kind of bridge that gap... it is simply another way of saying, I'll say what I want... but it isn't necessarily true."

7. Crafting Trump’s Public Persona

• The book’s opening lines about Trump not caring about money were invented by Schwartz for appeal, not accuracy.
  • Tony Schwartz (16:22):

    "First of all, I completely made it up. He didn't say any of those things to me... Donald Trump did everything for the money."

8. Impact of the Book

• Schwartz believes the book was pivotal in launching Trump’s public persona and regrets its consequences.
  • Tony Schwartz (17:56):

    "I did create a character in that book that was not nearly as brutal a character as he actually is... I feel as if in many ways I've spent significant portions of my life trying to do penance for having written that book."

9. Schwartz’s Private Journal Reflections

• Schwartz reads a 1986 journal entry, expressing the emotional cost of working with Trump.
  • Tony Schwartz (19:27):

    "...the last thing you could call it is nourishing or enriching... It's draining, it's deadening, it's one dimensionalizing... all Trump is, is stomp, stomp, stomp. Recognition from outside, bigger, more, a whole series of things that go nowhere in particular, that are a black hole."

10. Fears About a Trump Presidency

• Schwartz fears Trump’s temperament is dangerous when applied to presidential power.
  • Tony Schwartz (20:42):

    "...we live in a fragile world with nuclear weapons, and he would have access to the codes... the image I have is that he'd just get pissed off and want to show how tough he was, and the world would get obliterated."

11. A Final Trump Call

• After Jane Mayer’s interview, Trump calls Schwartz to object to his disloyalty, ending with the line:
  • Tony Schwartz (22:42):

    "Have a good life," and slammed the phone down.

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Regret (17:56):

  "I feel as if in many ways I've spent significant portions of my life trying to do penance for having written that book."
  — Tony Schwartz

• On Trump's Relationship with Truth (14:00):

  "... for him, lying was second nature."
  — Tony Schwartz

• On "Truthful Hyperbole" (15:01):

  "It's rationalizing it. It's making it seem kind of almost funny and harmless."
  — Tony Schwartz

• From Schwartz’s Journal (19:27):

  "It's draining, it's deadening, it's one dimensionalizing... all Trump is, is stomp, stomp, stomp... a whole series of things that go nowhere in particular, that are a black hole."
  — Tony Schwartz

• On Trump's Temperament (20:42):

  "I profoundly don't trust Donald Trump's judgment or character or patience or reflective ability, any of it, to make me feel safe that he won't [use nuclear weapons]."
  — Tony Schwartz

Timestamps for Major Segments

• 00:12 — Trump's presidential run and Art of the Deal legacy.
• 01:27 — Why Schwartz felt compelled to speak out now.
• 02:19 — Schwartz’s first encounters with Trump in the 1980s.
• 06:41 — How Schwartz pitched and landed the book project.
• 07:58 — Schwartz’s internal conflict and financial motivation.
• 08:53 — Early interviews expose Trump's impatience and lack of substance.
• 11:08 — Schwartz's solution: listening in on phone calls.
• 12:49 — Verification process and discovery of discrepancies.
• 14:00 — “Truthful hyperbole” and Trump’s flexible relationship with truth.
• 16:22 — Inventing the opening lines and narrating Trump’s persona.
• 17:56 — The book’s impact and lifelong regret.
• 19:27 — Excerpt from Schwartz’s journal.
• 20:42 — Schwartz’s existential fears regarding a Trump presidency.
• 22:42 — Trump’s phone call rebuking Schwartz.

Tone & Style

The episode is reflective, candid, and sobering. Tony Schwartz is frank, sometimes self-deprecating, and deeply concerned about his role in shaping Trump’s image. Jane Mayer’s questioning is incisive yet empathetic, focusing on extracting Schwartz’s most honest reflections.

Episode Takeaway

Tony Schwartz’s decision to break his silence reveals not only the manufactured nature of Trump’s legend but also the shadow of remorse cast over those who helped create it. Schwartz’s stark warnings about Trump’s temperament and ethics resonate as he seeks to make amends for his unintended contribution to Trump's rise.