Stephanie Hsu on “Everything Everywhere All at Once”; and the 2023 Brody Awards

Summary

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Podcast Summary: Stephanie Hsu on “Everything Everywhere All at Once”; and the 2023 Brody Awards

Podcast: The New Yorker Radio Hour
Host(s): David Remnick
Guests: Stephanie Hsu, Gia Tolentino, Richard Brody, Alexandra Schwartz
Release Date: February 28, 2023

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Overview

This episode delves into two major segments: an intimate conversation between Gia Tolentino and rising star Stephanie Hsu about her role in the Oscar-nominated film Everything Everywhere All at Once, followed by an annual tradition: film critic Richard Brody and Alexandra Schwartz present the “Brody Awards”, their unorthodox picks for the best films and performances of 2022, often diverging from the Oscars.

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Segment 1: Stephanie Hsu on “Everything Everywhere All at Once”

(00:09–13:47)

Exploring the Film’s Surprising Impact

• Everything Everywhere All at Once stands out as a genre-bending film, combining sci-fi, martial arts, and heartfelt family drama. It centers on the complex relationship between Evelyn (Michelle Yeoh) and her daughter Joy/Jobu (Stephanie Hsu).
• The film and Hsu’s performance have resonated widely, earning Oscar nominations amid tumultuous global times.

The Character and the Meaning of the Film

• Stephanie Hsu describes the Evelyn-Joy relationship as “very fraught… a story of a daughter who’s a lesbian who is deeply longing for her mother’s acceptance.” (01:06)
• Hsu reflects on the sense of "overwhelm" felt by the characters—and by audiences—amid a world filled with crisis, and how the film offers hope in the midst of nihilism.
  • “I think the movie’s stance is like, yeah, there are a million other universes that we could be in… But there’s a lot that we don’t know… When I was working on this project, I would say that nihilism in some ways saved my life. Because if nothing matters, then it’s true that we’re all just trying to figure it out together.” (02:22)
• Gia Tolentino notes that Joy moves from "nothing matters" to "it all matters" throughout the film. Hsu agrees, noting the underlying continuity between Joy and her alter-ego Jobu:
  • “The center of their beings, these two characters, were actually from the same heartbeat. That spirit of nihilism… can either pull you off the deep end... or, you know, slingshot you into the other direction, which is, I will just create as much chaos as possible.” (04:10)

Acting Process and Insights

• On differentiating the roles of Joy and Jobu, Hsu relied on the idea of both as “hyper, hyper empaths.”
  • “It’s feeling the world, like the absolute weight of not only this universe but all the universes that come before ... then imagining what future lies ahead, just really tapping into that.” (05:13)
• For Joy, Hsu focused on embodying “intimate sadness.” For Jobu, improvisation and physical transformation were key, channeling “amoeba slash noodle energy.” (05:13–06:36)

The Film and Asian-American Identity

• The film’s embrace of an Asian immigrant story was deeply meaningful to Tolentino and Hsu.
• Hsu reflects on the progress in representation but hopes for a future where identity is part of a story’s texture rather than “the only fruit that that piece bears.”
  • “I’m looking forward to continue to, like, broaden our horizons so much that… identity isn’t something that we’re using as a flex and more of just a part of a texture of a story that is crucial and critical, but also not the only fruit that that piece bears.” (07:23)
• They note the unique power of giving a “universe saving hero” role to a suburban Asian mother type.
  • Tolentino: “I was so moved by the centering of a suburban Asian mom in her sneakers and her bootcut weekday pants as this… universe-saving hero.” (08:42)

Intergenerational Response and Healing

• Hsu recounts her mom’s reaction to the film:
  • “She pointed to the movie screen and she goes, ‘I cried. That’s me.’ … The biggest gift has been that I very palpably feel that it is offering people healing. And that is all I could ever wish for, for any piece of art that I put out into the world.” (10:20)

Responsibility and the Power of Art

• Hsu discusses how her experience with Everything Everywhere has affirmed her artistic calling:
  • “It’s immense, actually. There’s great responsibility in being a person who shifts culture… If that is the toolbox I’ve been given, then I better use it wisely and hold it with grace and enjoy it and celebrate it.” (12:48)

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Segment 2: The 2023 Brody Awards—Best in Cinema

(13:47–30:59)

Introduction to the Brodies

• Richard Brody looks at cinema as high art, not just entertainment; his annual “Brody Awards” tend to go against Oscar convention.
• There’s anxiety in the Academy about declining moviegoing and award show viewership. This leads to more populist nominees like Top Gun: Maverick for Best Picture. (15:27–16:28)

Critique of the Oscars

• Remnick: The Oscars are “aspirational, a kind of futures market,” showcasing what the industry wishes to be.
• Brody contends the Oscars are “for the industry” and not the “final arbiter of cinematic taste.” (16:49)

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Key Award Picks & Arguments

Best Actor

• Brody Award Nominees: Jeremy Pope (The Inspection), Christian Bale (Amsterdam), Jafar Panahi (No Bears)
• Winner: Jafar Panahi (No Bears), notable for being a director playing himself under quasi-house arrest in Iran:
  • “By being a non-actor, he brings a kind of presence to the world of acting that the actual professional world could very well learn from.” (17:54–18:38)
• Brody is unimpressed by mainstream nominees such as Austin Butler and Paul Mescal, criticizing performances that are technically competent but artistically limited by weak films. (19:11)

Best Actress

• Brody Award Nominees: Danielle Deadweiler (Till), Tilda Swinton (The Eternal Daughter), Guslagie Malanda (Saint Omer)
• Winner: Danielle Deadweiler (Till):
  • “Danielle Deadweiler’s performance is extraordinary... raises the passion and the calculation… to a kind of prophetic passion.” (20:14–21:05)
• Brody and Remnick lament that the Academy overlooked Till, possibly due to its challenging subject matter and focus on Black experience:
  • “There’s unfortunately a very long history of the Academy membership simply not even going to see movies that are about the black American experience.” (Richard Brody, 21:05)

Best Actress Oscar Race Commentary

• Michelle Yeoh (Everything Everywhere) vs. Cate Blanchett (Tár):
  • Brody: “I think it’s Michelle Yeoh’s year for the simple reason that Cate Blanchett has won Oscars before. I think Cate Blanchett’s performance is quite showy, but again, I don’t think she had a lot to work with in Tar.” (22:46)

Best Director

• Brody Award Nominees: James Gray (Armageddon Time), Jordan Peele (Nope), Terence Davies (Benediction), Alice Diop (Saint Omer), Jafar Panahi (No Bears)
• Winner: Jordan Peele (Nope):
  • “Jordan Peele does something in Nope that I think is exceptionally difficult—which is, he takes a big Hollywood spectacle and does something completely original with it.” (25:11–25:52)

Best Picture

• Academy noms include: Avatar, Everything Everywhere, Top Gun, Banshees of Inisherin, Women Talking, The Fabelmans, All Quiet on the Western Front, Elvis, Triangle of Sadness, Tár.
• Brody Award Nominees: Benediction, Nope, Armageddon Time
• Winner: Benediction (Terence Davies)
  • “Benediction is the greatest First World War film of the 21st century. [...] Sassoon, as Davis depicts in this film, spent the rest of his life in a state of grief, rage and trauma over his experiences in the First World War.” (28:52–29:44)

Brief Remarks on Other Oscar Contenders

• Tár is labeled an “Oscar-y” movie, with its focus on prestige, but feelings on it are mixed—Brody finds it emotionally hollow, Schwartz feels it critiques the toxic culture it depicts. (23:03–24:26)
• Everything Everywhere All at Once is expected to win, called “a very sentimental, almost facile film about family life. And that’s exactly what the Oscars love.” (Brody, 27:54–28:35)
• Women Talking is praised for its screenplay adaptation (Schwartz, 27:54).
• The Fabelmans likely won’t be ignored due to Spielberg’s stature, but Brody says it “seems to me to be less a work of autobiography than of autohagiography.” (30:17–30:41)

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Notable Quotes

• Stephanie Hsu: “Nihilism in some ways saved my life. Because if nothing matters, then it’s true that we’re all just trying to figure it out together.” (02:22)
• Stephanie Hsu: “She pointed to the movie screen and she goes, ‘I cried. That’s me.’ … I very palpably feel that it is offering people healing. And that is all I could ever wish for, for any piece of art…” (10:20)
• Richard Brody: “By being a non-actor, he [Jafar Panahi] brings a kind of presence to the world of acting that the actual professional world could very well learn from.” (18:38)
• David Remnick: “It’s immense, actually. There’s great responsibility in being a person who shifts culture.” (12:48)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• 00:09–01:06: Introduction to Everything Everywhere All at Once and cast/character setup
• 02:22: Hsu on nihilism, meaning, and survival
• 04:10: Discussion of the connection between Joy and Jobu
• 05:13–06:36: Hsu describes her acting approach to both roles
• 07:23: Hsu on identity and the future of representation
• 10:20: Hsu shares her mother’s emotional response to the film
• 13:47–15:27: Transition to Brody Awards; Oscars and changing movie landscape
• 17:54: Brody’s pick and reasoning for Best Actor
• 20:14: Brody and Remnick on Danielle Deadweiler in Till
• 22:46: Yeoh vs. Blanchett for Oscar Best Actress
• 25:11: Brody’s pick for Best Director: Jordan Peele
• 28:52: Brody’s pick for Best Picture: Benediction
• 30:17: End discussion: Spielberg and The Fabelmans

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Tone & Language

The episode retains The New Yorker’s signature mix of casual insight and critical rigor, with warmth from Stephanie Hsu and lively, well-argued debate between Brody, Schwartz, and Remnick.

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Takeaways

• Everything Everywhere All at Once is celebrated for its bold approach to genre, representation, and emotional depth; Hsu’s personal reflections highlight the film’s broader cultural and personal impact.
• The “Brody Awards” remind listeners that critical perspectives can—and perhaps should—diverge sharply from mainstream awards, focusing on overlooked artistry, depth, and cultural relevance.

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Transcript

[David Remnick]

This is the New Yorker Radio Hour, a co production of WNYC Studios and the New Yorker.

[Narrator/Host]

This is the New Yorker Radio Hour. I'm David Remnick. The Oscars will be given out soon, and among the best picture nominees, and there are a lot of them, is the film Everything Everywhere all at Once. And in many ways, it seems the most surprising film, and it's considered a real frontrunner. It's not an earnest drama, a magnificent spectacle, or a beloved nostalgia remake. Everything Everywhere all at Once is really a genre unto itself, a loopy science fiction quest that somehow evolves into a martial arts revenge battle. And it's crossed with a sentimental family drama of a mother and a daughter trying to understand each other. Michelle Yeoh is nominated for best Actress playing Evelyn, the hapless owner of a laundromat. Stephanie Hsu is nominated for supporting Actress playing her depressed daughter Joy, and is also the film's deranged supervillain, Jobu.

[Stephanie Hsu]

The relationship between Evelyn and Joy, in its simplest terms, is very fraught. It is a story of a relationship of a daughter who's a lesbian who is dead, deeply longing for her mother's acceptance. But they keep chasing each other around in the universe, and they can just never find one another until, of course, they launch into the multiverse and become nemeses.

[Narrator/Host]

Stephanie Hsu spoke last spring just after the movie came out with Gia Tolentino, a staff writer at the New Yorker.

[Gia Tolentino]

So much about the world seems just extremely overwhelming and bad and broken. You know, every time you look at your phone, you're reminded by nightmare social media of the nightmare situation in Ukraine and the housing crisis and the unending pandemic and just sort of injustice wherever you look, right? And we all feel this all the time. But one of the things that people have responded to so strongly in Everything Everywhere is that the movie seems to sketch out some sort of standpoint about how to live in a world that is overwhelming and bad and broken. Right. How to value that world and love that world despite. And even because it's that way. And I wonder, how would you describe the movie's perspective on all of that?

[Stephanie Hsu (Interviewee)]

Wow, Gia, that was such a beautiful articulation of this moment in time as well as how it relates to our movie. You know, honestly, in some ways, it's been really surreal because we shot this film before the pandemic, right? And we could not have possibly known how much the world was going to need our little offering. But I have to say, you know, there's my biggest conflict with being an actor or being a part of this industry is sometimes like, I fear that what we do is not enough or that how is it possible when there's a war, when there's climate disaster, not even crisis climate, constant climate disaster, everything is. It feels like it's crumbling. How is art going to help it? And I feel like the release of this film, witnessing how people are responding to it, is giving me some sort of full circle healing. Because I think the movie's stance is like, yeah, there are a million other universes that we could be in. There are a lot of possibilities if we went right instead of left that one time. But there's a lot that we don't know. And, you know, in some ways, I think I am someone who's constantly searching for meaning. But when I was working on this project, I would say that nihilism in some ways saved my life. Because if nothing matters, then it's true that we're all just trying to figure it out together.

[Gia Tolentino]

And that's, in a way, I mean, that's your character, Joy. That's her journey, right? It's from starting off at a point where it feels like nothing matters. From nothing matters to it all matters.

[Stephanie Hsu (Interviewee)]

I think what I love about Joy, this, you know, sort of despondent queer daughter and Jobu, a nihilistic, you know, creator of chaos, goddess and maniac. Is that actually something that was really important for all of us was to make sure that the center of their beings, these two characters, were actually from the same heartbeat. So that that spirit of nihilism, you know, can either pull you off the deep end and make you feel like there's no reason to continue, or it can, like, you know, slingshot you into the other direction, which is, I will just create as much chaos as possible. Because none of this matters for you.

[Gia Tolentino]

Playing these very. These two very different characters, was there anything you reached for physically or in terms of your, you know, your inner process when you were switching back and forth? What did you reach for when you needed to feel that continuity between them?

[Stephanie Hsu (Interviewee)]

I. I sort of think of both Joy and Jobu as hyper, hyper empaths. Like, I think the most important thing that I felt like I needed to share with the two characters was this really real feeling, I mean, from my own life, of just overwhelm of. I mean, it's feeling the world like the absolute weight of not only this universe, but all the universes that come before, and then imagining what future lies ahead, just really tapping into that. And then for Joy, you know, obviously she's a much more intimate character. And getting to play in that sort of physical manifestation of sadness or, like, ugliness or just wanting to be small versus Jobu. We did a lot of improvisation. And because she's kind of a omniscient being and not quite human, I was really channeling a lot of, like, amoeba slash noodle energy of, like, if I were a cartoon, if Jobu was a cartoon, she'd be able to, like, and explode into, like, a particle or then explode into a basketball player, you know, and trying to embody that availability in.

[Gia Tolentino]

Her physicality, you know, it's funny. I was gonna say it's, like, very telling that at first, when Joy comes on screen, I had no idea that she was depressed. I was like, that's on me. I was like, oh, this is just a realistic depiction of what it's like to be a daughter of immigrants who's living in a different world than her parents. And then halfway through, it was like, oh, yeah. Oh, she's not.

[Richard Brody]

Well.

[Gia Tolentino]

This movie really felt like a landmark for me because of the exact way that it foregrounded and centered an Asian immigrant story. Because the movie not just mirrors, but really actively explores the way that the particularities of identity feel to me. And you've talked in another interview about how you thought the film, in a way, transcended identity politics, and I wondered if you had any more thoughts on that subject.

[Stephanie Hsu (Interviewee)]

Yeah, I mean, you know, I think that there's such amazing movement that's happening in terms of visibility. I just watched Turning Red, the new Pixar movie, and just cried, like, the whole time. I just. If I had seen that when I was a kid, my entire life, my own inner red panda of this thing that I now do with my career, I think I would have unleashed it much sooner. And so I think, you know, but it's also what I love about that movie and our movie is that it's reaching so many people outside of just the AAPI community. I just think that beyond. It is so crucial to have conversations and specific conversations about how individuals or different cultures grow up or grow in society. I'm. I'm looking forward to continue to, like, broaden our horizons so much that, you know, five, ten years from now, identity isn't something that we're using as a flex and more of just a part of a texture of a story that is crucial and critical, but also not the only fruit that that piece bears.

[Gia Tolentino]

Yeah, I was so. You know, for all of the complexity in the million universes, Right. The movie really centers on something very intimate which is this intergener conveyance or non conveyance of care and love and specifically the relationship between a mother and a daughter. And I was so, you know, I was so moved. Michelle Yeoh is my mom's age. I was so moved by the centering of a suburban Asian mom in her sneakers and her bootcut weekday pants as this, you know, universe saving hero. Like that meant. That felt so wonderful to me.

[Stephanie Hsu (Interviewee)]

I'm here because we need your help.

[David Remnick]

Very busy today.

[Richard Brody]

I long time to help you.

[Stephanie Hsu (Interviewee)]

There is a great evil that has taken root in my world. I cannot talk now unless you can.

[Richard Brody]

Help me with my taxes. What is gross Necklaces?

[Stephanie Hsu (Interviewee)]

I know you have a lot of things on your mind, but nothing could possibly matter more than this conversation we're having right now concerning the fate of every single world of our infinite multiverse.

[David Remnick]

Respect for my elders.

[Stephanie Hsu (Interviewee)]

My dear Evelyn, I know you with every passing moment you feel you might have missed your chance to make something of your life. I'm here to tell you every rejection, every disappointment has led you here to this moment. Don't let anything distract you from it.

[Gia Tolentino]

I wanted to ask you. What could I ask you about your mom's reaction to the movie? Have you watched it with her?

[Stephanie Hsu]

Yeah, totally. So my mom, she came to the LA premiere and she definitely wasn't like a huge advocate for me when I was growing up to be an actor. She was very puzzled by that choice or that pursuit. But she saw the movie and after I asked her, she was kind of quiet and I asked her, you know, did you like it? And she's like, she just nodded behind her mask and she's like, yes. And. And then she pointed to the movie screen and she goes, I cried. That's me. And it's really wild because at the, you know, of course, because I was playing Joy and Jobu, I. So much of my entry point was from the point of view of a daughter. But you know, I really like hearing her say that. Not even her saying that's you, but her saying that's me made me feel that the movie also offered her healing too of not only her relationship with me, but also her relationship with her parents. Because yeah, we have Gong Gong in the picture. You know, we have the grandfather in the picture and it was really special. I still reflect, I'm still chewing over that interaction with her because I. I've been hearing a lot of people saying that they watch the movie or their parent, they send their parents to watch the movie. Movie and then their parents call them and apologize. And I just think that is such a, you know, this movie. I'm proud of it for so many reasons. But the biggest gift has been that I very palpably feel that it is offering people healing. And that is all I could ever wish for, for any piece of art that I put out into the world. And it's helpful to remember that art is capable of doing that, you know, to moving us into action.

[Gia Tolentino]

Yeah. I mean, you know, I was thinking about this when you, when we were talking about the wanting to avoid the trap of reessentializing identity, because I feel like the whole point of valuing the particularities of anyone's identity is to not to enshrine them in stone, but to move towards a world where everything is everyone's identity is crucially important, but also, like, you understand identity as fundamentally fluid and fundamentally kind of incidental.

[Stephanie Hsu (Interviewee)]

And like, when I first started, there was no crazy rich Asians. There was no parasite. There was no turning red or everything everywhere. Right. And I think that this movie and how it's been received is giving me permission, like, really deep permission for the first time in my life to really love this thing that I do. Because I don't. I'm not a doctor. I don't have the skill sets or the gifts that I've been given are in this little corner of the world. And it is not. It is immense, actually. There's great responsibility in being a person who shifts culture. And so if that is the toolbox I've been given, then I better use it wisely and hold it with grace and enjoy it and celebrate it.

[Narrator/Host]

That's Gia Tolentino, a staff writer for the New Yorker, speaking with Stephanie Hsu, whose performance in Everything Everywhere all at Once is up for an Oscar, along with the film's 10 other nominations. This is the New Yorker Radio Hour. And in a moment, more on the Year in film with critic Richard Brody. Stick around. This is the New Yorker Radio Hour. I'm David Remnick. Richard Brody writes the column front row for newyorker.com and he's a true believer in cinema with a capital C. He looks at films not as entertainment only or storytelling, but as a true art, maybe the art form, at least for Richard. His criticism is beloved by readers who take movies very seriously. Every year around this time, Richard joins us here to present the best films of the last year, the Brodies. His picks often differ wildly from other award shows you might see. And we're joined in this enterprise by staff writer Alexandra Schwartz, who covers film and books and much more. Alex. Richard, great to have you.

[Richard Brody]

Hi, David. Hello, Alex. How are you?

[David Remnick]

Well, great to see you, Richard.

[Narrator/Host]

So here we go. This year's Academy Awards appears to be, at least superficially, making a play for a more populist audience. What do you guys make of this development? What's your overall impression of this year's nominees for Best Picture?

[Richard Brody]

I have the sense that the Academy membership is in a state of fear right now because of two simultaneous developments. On the one hand, the fact that the bottom has dropped out of movie viewing. There are the big champions, and then there are films that are, by and large, flops, Only a few in the middle. And on the other hand, Oscar viewing, the broadcast viewing, has dropped out, too. So that confluence of crises seems to be causing the Academy membership to put big popular films out there in the awards.

[Narrator/Host]

Alex.

[David Remnick]

Yeah, I agree. I think fear is the right way to put it. There is a desperate whiff to all of this. It's hard to think of another year in which Top Gun shows up as a Best Picture nominee. I'm not opposed to it on its face, because I don't really. I think one of the premises of the Brodies is that we don't necessarily think that the Oscars is the number one arbiter of cinematic taste.

[Narrator/Host]

Absolutely right.

[David Remnick]

So, you know, I would say that probably we're okay with saying that maybe a film getting an Oscar does not automatically seal it as being great, and maybe a film not getting an Oscar doesn't automatically seal it as being forgettable.

[Narrator/Host]

If you really quizzed me hard about who won the big awards in the last three years, I'm not sure I could come close to coming up with even half of them.

[Richard Brody]

No, but that's the paradox of the Oscars. That though the broadcast is for the general audience, the awards themselves are for the industry. And that's one of the reasons why I keep coming back to the Oscars with interest and enthusiasm. I think of it as aspirational, as a kind of futures market. It's people in the movie business telling each other and the world, this is what we want ourselves to be, what we want our industry to be.

[Narrator/Host]

Now we've come to the crucial moment. Let's get to the awards, the awards we're waiting for. Alex Schwartz is here with the official Brody envelopes. They were, of course, in a briefcase handcuffed to her arm. So no one, including me, knows who the winners will be until they're announced right here on the Air. And we're going to start with best actor. Alex, who was nominated?

[David Remnick]

The nominees for the 2023 Brody Award for best actor are Jeremy Pope for the Inspection, Christian Bale for Amsterdam, and Jafar Panahi for no Bears. And the winner is Jafar Panahy for.

[Richard Brody]

No Bears, which is a very unusual choice because Jafar Panahi is not an actor. He is the director of no Bears and he plays the role of Jafar Panahi. The realistic winner is Christian Bale because he's a Hollywood actor. But Jafar Panahi playing someone like himself in a movie made in Iran about the oppression that a filmmaker such as Jafar Panahi, who has been under essentially house arrest and a ban from filmmaking since 2011, the pressures that he faces, in effect, by being a non actor, he brings a kind of presence to the world of acting that the actual professional world could very well learn from.

[Narrator/Host]

Now, that sound you hear out in radio land and podcast land is the sound of many people scratching their heads. The Academy's best actor nominations this year were all first timers. Brendan Fraser for the Whale, Colin Farrell for the Banshees of Ina Sharon, Bill Nighy for Living, Austin Butler for Elvis, and Paul Mescal for After Son. So, Richard, none of those impressed you?

[Richard Brody]

Some of them even depressed me. Go to it.

[David Remnick]

Name names.

[Richard Brody]

I mean, every one of them is a competent actor. In fact, more than competent, every one of them is a wonderful actor. I thought that Austin Butler playing Elvis had the moves but didn't have the soul. He didn't have the sense of erotic energy that Elvis does. He merely, you know, it seemed like an impersonation rather than a performance. I basically think that it's almost impossible for an actor to give a great performance in a mediocre film. I mean, Paul Mescal is a wonderful actor, but what was required of him in this film is so narrow in its perspective, so narrow in its range, that I don't consider it more than a skilled professional performance. The same is true of Bill Nighy in In Living, a terrible remake of a great film.

[David Remnick]

So moving on to the next category, the Brody nominees for best actress are Danielle Deadweiler for Till, Tilda Swinton for the Eternal Daughter, and Guslagi Malada in Saint Omer. And the Brody goes to Danielle Deadweiler for Till.

[Richard Brody]

This is the scandal of the year.

[David Remnick]

I agree, Richard. I totally agree.

[Narrator/Host]

Why is that?

[Richard Brody]

Danielle Deadweiler's performance is extraordinary, as is the movie and the direction of the film. All should have been nominated for Oscars. Danielle Deadweiler's performance is a very distinctive kind of performance. It's a still performance. It's a sharply focused performance. It's a rhetorical performance that raises the passion and the calculation, the political calculation of Mamie Till Mobley, the mother of Emmett Till, to a kind of prophetic passion. The question is, why, in fact, did the acting branch not pay attention to Danielle Deadweiler's performance? And I think that there's unfortunately a very long history of the Academy membership simply not even. Not even going to see movies that are about the black American experience.

[David Remnick]

Yeah, Richard, I was just wondering if it's possible that Academy members didn't see this movie in the numbers they should have, in part because, as you say, they may have overlooked movies focusing on the black experience. And also, this movie deals with an atrocious event. It is incredibly difficult to think about Emmett Till, let alone watch a movie about his murder and the after effects of his murder. Daniel Deadweiler is the heart and soul of this movie and she is so moving on screen. There's a scene in which she's testifying at the trial of the men who are accused of having lynched Emmett Till.

[Stephanie Hsu (Interviewee)]

Like if he bumped into somebody on.

[David Remnick]

The street and they might get belligerent or something, Well, I told him to go ahead and humble himself so as not to get into any trouble, but. But what? Well, I raised him with love for 14 years. My sudden warnings about hate weren't going to get through what she does with her physical and emotional performance. Her eyes flutter as she describes what it is to love your child. There's something that is so cinematic on the one hand about that performance, but also so deeply felt and authentic that to me, it really seemed like a no brainer for the kind of performance that should be recognized by the Oscars. None of Richard's picks were the favorites. Not surprising and perhaps, you know, another mark in favor of the Brodies cred. But instead we have Ana de Armas for Blonde, Andrea Riseborough for To Leslie, Michelle Williams for the Fableman, Michelle Yeoh for Everything Everywhere, all at Once, and Cate Blanchett for Tara.

[Narrator/Host]

We're talking about Michelle Yeoh, I think up against Cate Blanchett.

[Richard Brody]

No, that's exactly what I think, too. I think it's Michelle Yeoh's year for the simple reason that Cate Blanchett has won Oscars before. I think Cate Blanchett's performance is quite showy, but again, I don't think she had a lot to work with in.

[David Remnick]

Tar.

[Richard Brody]

Tar plays like Cards turned over on a table in a game of Three Card Monty. Todd Field knows exactly the cards he's turning over. The movie is set up to provoke responses, to push buttons on the basis of the cards that he turns over.

[Narrator/Host]

You say that like it's a bad thing. What's wrong with that?

[Richard Brody]

Well, here's a psychological drama in which there's no psychology in which the protagonist more or less doesn't exist between the scenes that she plays.

[Narrator/Host]

Alex, I sense you disagree.

[David Remnick]

Well, the truth is that, you know, Richard has swayed me in some respects on tar. I'm still trying to understand this concept of the character not exist in between the scenes, which I love that idea where I disagree with Richard. You know, Richard says the movie is out to provoke responses. Well, yours, Richard, is definitely one of the strongest and most interesting responses that was provoked. But I do not feel that the film neatly aligns with the politics it's showing. I think it is critiquing those politics. And I know you think that the film is advocating for them essentially that it wanted to present this version of Cancel Culture as an atrocity and something that its character was victimized by. I actually think you monstrosity of the character very clearly in the film and that it grows as you come to understand more and more how she has manipulated and abused her position of power to destroy the life and then lives of the young women around her.

[Narrator/Host]

Can we not agree that any movie that begins with 15 minutes of the New Yorker Festival is a triumph of cinema?

[David Remnick]

That was bold.

[Richard Brody]

That's what I think.

[David Remnick]

I think we're all trying to. I think, you know, that was daring, that was audacious. That finally gave us the prominence we've long sought. All right, well, after two years in a row of women directors taking home the Oscar for best director, we have this year a return to an all male slate of nominees. We have Todd Field for Tar, Steven Spielberg for the Fabelmans, Reuben Oslin for Triangle of sadness, Martin McDonagh for the Banshees of Insherin and the duo known as the Daniels, Daniel Kwan and Daniel Scheinert for Everything Everywhere all at Once. Richard, who are your nominees for the best director?

[Richard Brody]

Well, my nominees are James Gray for Armageddon Time, Jordan Peele for Nope, Terrence Davis for Benediction, Alice Diop for Saint Omer and Jafar Panahy for no Bears. My choice for the winner is Jordan Peele. Jordan Peele does something in Nope. That I think is exceptionally difficult, which is he takes a big Hollywood spectacle and does something completely Original with it.

[Stephanie Hsu]

Like, all I'm saying is all that online is fake. Low quality.

[Gia Tolentino]

Ain't nobody gonna get what we gonna get.

[Richard Brody]

What we gon get?

[Stephanie Hsu]

The shot.

[Richard Brody]

What shot?

[Stephanie Hsu]

The shot. The money shot. Undeniable, Singular. The Oprah shot.

[Richard Brody]

He works at the level of any of the directors of the big blockbusters of the year and he makes a film that is as wildly original as the most. Do it yourself. Absolutely unsupervised independent film.

[Narrator/Host]

Now we are inching toward the crucial moment. The Academy nominated a full 10 movies this year and among them, Avatar, Everything Everywhere all at Once. Top Gun, the Banshees, ivinisheran Women Talking, the Fabelmans, All Quiet on the Western Front. Elvis, Triangle of Sadness and Tar, which I think we now know Richard has bit of an argument with. So Richard, Alex from that group, what would be your pick for best picture? Let's go with Alex first.

[David Remnick]

Well, I'm afraid to say it. I think the most academy like pick is tar. Is that my personal pick? I'm still mulling it over. I haven't totally cast my vote. It's in my top two or three.

[Narrator/Host]

Why is it the most Academy pick?

[David Remnick]

Well, because I think a movie that deals with a big artistic figure, a movie that looks directly at prestige and what prestige is like in a movie that looks prestigious, you know, she should.

[Narrator/Host]

Have won best apartment in a movie. Fantastic.

[David Remnick]

Definitely. Although who wants to live? So much concrete. Yes, a lot of concrete there, you know, pretty hard.

[Narrator/Host]

You're seeing concrete. I'm seeing a lack of children, you know, one or the other. So that is a very Oscar y movie.

[David Remnick]

It's a very Oscar y movie. I mean, Everything Everywhere all at Once has the indie appeal. It has a lot of quirk. It also has a lot of effects. So it's not like a totally, you know, it's still a movie movie. Capital M, perhaps capital double M. And it's. I think it's the crowd pleaser and the one perhaps most likely to win. I have a soft spot for women talking, having written about Miriam Toews, the author of the book that Sarah Pauley adapted. It's a real ensemble movie.

[Richard Brody]

Oh, I. The only nomination that I'm actually happy about is the one for women talking about. I didn't love Sarah Polley's direction, but I think that her screenplay, which was in fact nominated, is a real literary achievement. I think that her transformation of the novel is remarkable and that the movie itself is very moving as a result. I think that Everything Everywhere all at Once is going to win I think that it has the combination of. It feels youthful because of its reliance on special effects and the multiverse and sentiment. Everything Everywhere, all at Once is a very sentimental, almost facile film about family life. And that's exactly what the Oscars love.

[Narrator/Host]

Okay, so, Alex, who were the Brody nominations for best picture?

[David Remnick]

The nominees for best picture at the 2023 Brodies are benediction. Nope. And Armageddon Time. And Richard the Brody goes to.

[Richard Brody]

It goes to Benediction. Directed by Terence Davis, Benediction is the greatest First World War film of the 21st century. It's a biopic of the poet Siegfried Sassoon, who made his name as a poet of the First World War, who was grievously wounded in the First World War, who met the love of his life, the poet Wilfred Owen, in a military hospital. Owen was then killed in combat. And Sassoon, as Davis depicts in this film, spent the rest of his life in a state of grief, rage and trauma over his experiences in the First World War.

[David Remnick]

It is not your place to question.

[Stephanie Hsu (Interviewee)]

How the war is being prosecuted.

[Narrator/Host]

Your duty lies in obeying orders.

[David Remnick]

Duty.

[Stephanie Hsu (Interviewee)]

That word covers a multitude of sins.

[David Remnick]

In the face of such slaughter, one.

[Stephanie Hsu (Interviewee)]

Cannot simply order one's conscience. One can do better than that.

[David Remnick]

One can ignore it.

[Narrator/Host]

That reply was so disgraceful. You ought to be in politics, I think. Can I just say, before we go, I'm just gonna put this out there. The idea that these Oscars would get out and conclude without any acknowledgement of Spielberg's the Fabelmans, which is this autobiographical film, I find it hard to believe that won't happen in some form or another. Best director something?

[Richard Brody]

No, very possibly. There's a great sentimental attachment to Steven Spielberg on the part of the Academy. And this is, for better or worse, a very personal film. For better in the sense that he knows the story well and the movie has a great deal of vigor, a great deal of verve. For worse, it also has a great deal of self love. It seems to me to be less a work of autobiography than of autohagiography. Okay.

[Narrator/Host]

Alex Schwartz, Richard Brody, as always, a great annual pleasure. Richard Brody's column on film is called the front [e-mail] and you can find all of his best doves for 2022 and so much more right [e-mail] Alex. Richard, thanks so much.

[David Remnick]

Thank you, David.

[Richard Brody]

David. Alex, thank you very much.

[Narrator/Host]

This is the New Yorker Radio Hour. Thank you for joining us today and I hope you join us next time.

[David Remnick]

The New Yorker Radio Hour is a co production of WNYC Studios and the New Yorker. Our theme music was composed and performed by Meryl Garbus of Tune Yards with additional music by Louis Mitchell. This episode was produced by Max Balton, Breda Green, Adam Howard, Kalalea, David Krasnow, Jeffrey Masters, Louis Mitchell and Ingolfen and Puchabuele, with guidance from Emily Botin and assistance from Harrison Keithlein and Meher Bhatia. The New Yorker Radio Hour is supported in part by the Tsarina Endowment Fund.