The A.C.L.U. v. Trump 2.0

Summary

Podcast Summary: The A.C.L.U. v. Trump 2.0 The New Yorker Radio Hour, Hosted by David Remnick Release Date: February 14, 2025

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Introduction

In the episode titled "The A.C.L.U. v. Trump 2.0," David Remnick engages in a comprehensive discussion with Anthony Romero, the Executive Director of the American Civil Liberties Union (ACLU). Romero, who has led the ACLU since September 2001, provides insights into the organization's legal battles against the Trump administration's policies during its second term.

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The Rubicon: Approaching a Constitutional Crisis

[01:34] Anthony Romero: "I think we could very well be there. We're at the Rubicon."

Romero explains that the term "Rubicon" signifies a potential constitutional crisis arising from the Trump administration's possible defiance of judicial orders. This crisis hinges on whether the administration will respect judicial authority or openly disregard court mandates.

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Key Legal Battles

Birthright Citizenship

[04:50] David Remnick: "What stands between us and the ruination of the Constitution is the conscience of good people."

The ACLU has filed lawsuits aimed at repealing birthright citizenship, a cornerstone established by the 14th Amendment. Romero highlights the profound repercussions of such an action, including the potential for hundreds of thousands of individuals to lose their citizenship status.

[05:54] Anthony Romero: "If we are allowed to repeal birthright citizenship, it means even lawful residents' children could lose their citizenship."

Immigration and Executive Orders

Romero discusses the administration's attempts to defund gender-affirming health care and alter immigration policies. The ACLU's efforts focus on challenging these executive orders through litigation, emphasizing the protection of civil liberties.

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The Role of Judges and the Supreme Court

[03:18] Anthony Romero: "It's judges. The judges are the front line right now."

Romero underscores the pivotal role that the judiciary plays in maintaining constitutional integrity. He expresses concern over the Supreme Court's conservative shift and its potential impact on upholding or undermining civil liberties.

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Family Separation and Immigration Policies

[28:22] Anthony Romero: "The biggest victories had to do with family separation."

One of the ACLU's significant achievements was halting the Trump administration's family separation policy, which aimed to deter immigration through harsh measures. This victory was marked by bipartisan support and public pressure leading to the policy's reversal.

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Gender-Affirming Health Care for Minors

[23:53] Anthony Romero: "It's clear fear mongering of a community under assault."

The ACLU is actively challenging executive orders that restrict gender-affirming care for transgender minors. Romero emphasizes that the organization advocates for such care in collaboration with parents, ensuring that minors are supported within the legal framework.

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Free Speech and Social Media Platforms

[26:05] Anthony Romero: "The same principles apply."

Romero addresses concerns regarding free speech on social media platforms, particularly in the context of billionaires like Elon Musk managing these spaces. The ACLU maintains that government should not regulate private speech, upholding free expression rights.

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Past Victories and Defeats

[28:17] Anthony Romero: "Building of the wall was a hard case."

While the ACLU has celebrated victories in cases like preventing family separations and safeguarding the US Census, challenges remain, such as litigation against the misuse of federal funds for border walls—an area where the ACLU acknowledges the complexity and difficulty of opposing established government powers.

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Current Challenges and Future Strategies

[32:42] Anthony Romero: "Knuckling under in advance."

Romero discusses the rapid succession of executive orders and the strategic response required by the ACLU. The organization is collaborating with various allies, including Democracy Forward and Planned Parenthood, to effectively counteract the administration's policies through coordinated legal actions.

[33:32] Anthony Romero: "We have to play this game smartly, and we are picking and choosing our battles."

Recognizing the intensity and speed of the current political climate, the ACLU emphasizes the importance of strategic litigation, resource management, and sustained advocacy to protect civil liberties over the long term.

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Conclusion

Anthony Romero conveys a blend of concern and resilience in facing the Trump administration's legal challenges. He remains optimistic about the ACLU's capacity to uphold constitutional values through persistent legal efforts and public advocacy, despite the formidable obstacles ahead.

[35:12] David Remnick: "Anthony Romero, thank you very much."

The episode concludes with Romero reaffirming the ACLU's commitment to defending civil liberties and navigating the complexities of contemporary political and legal battles.

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This summary encapsulates the key discussions and insights from the episode, providing a comprehensive overview for those who have not listened to the full podcast.

Transcript

[Unknown Announcer]

Listener support WNYC Studios this is the New Yorker Radio Hour, a co production of WNYC Studios and the New Yorker.

[David Remnick]

Welcome to the New Yorker Radio Hour. I'm David Remnick. In Donald Trump's first term in office, the American Civil liberties union, the ACLU, filed 434 lawsuits against the administration. They included suits against the so called Muslim ban and family separation at the border and many more. There is no telling how many lawsuits they will file in a second Donald Trump administration. The Executive Director of the ACLU is Anthony Romero. Romero has held the job since 2001. September 2001, to be exact. He started in the role just a few days before the September 11th attack. Romero has done the job under four presidents. Since Donald Trump's second inauguration, the ACLU has filed suits to block executive orders ending birthright citizenship, defunding gender affirming health care, and much more. I spoke with Anthony Romero last week. Let's begin with the most essential question, legal and political. Are we less than a month into the Trump administration, the second Trump administration, on the brink of a constitutional crisis?

[Anthony Romero]

I think we could very well be there. We're at the Rubicon. Whether we've crossed it is yet to be determined.

[David Remnick]

Well, describe what the Rubicon is. What is the Rubicon?

[Anthony Romero]

The Rubicon is the flagrant abuse of judicial power. If the Trump administration decides to run the gauntlet and openly defy a judicial order in a way that is not about an appeal, it's not about clarifying, it's not about getting a congressional fix, but an open defiance to a judicial order, then I think we're there.

[David Remnick]

What are the issues where that's a possibility?

[Anthony Romero]

Well, there are 40 cases, David. There have been a bunch of lawsuits around the Doge and whether or not the Doge and Elon Musk have overextended their power.

[David Remnick]

This is the Department of Government Efficiency led by Elon Musk.

[Anthony Romero]

Exactly. There are some who say that they're violating the Privacy act, that they're accessing personal identifiable information on American citizens, their Social Security numbers, their tax returns, all sorts of information that are in the government data banks. Now, whether or not they've actually accessed that, whether there's harm, whether or not the individuals who are bringing cases have standing. Those are all to be determined by the judges. But there are about four cases, I think, that have been filed there thus far. Then there's all the questions around shutting down or the closure of grants from the federal government, from USAID and other agencies.

[David Remnick]

This is considered illegal by legal Experts.

[Anthony Romero]

Because Congress appropriates the money.

[David Remnick]

Right.

[Anthony Romero]

It's not the president's power to rewrite the appropriations from Congress.

[David Remnick]

Now you have the vice President of the United States saying the following. Judges are not allowed to control the executive's legitimate power. What say you as the head of the aclu?

[Anthony Romero]

Legitimate. That's the word that jumped at me. And that's what we're arguing about, whether it's a legitimate use of the executive branch power. And it's not a new controversy. I mean, we've had these debates before, the unitary executive. Remember that back in the days of George Bush. And, of course, most presidents have tried to exert a much more muscular approach to executive power than I think the courts or Congress often give them the room for.

[David Remnick]

We've seen the Republican Party become the party of Trump, and its awareness that if they defy Trump in any way, they're gonna lose their seat. Doesn't give you a lot of confidence, does it?

[Anthony Romero]

Well, the other thing. The other thing to play on confidence is, you know, look at the Supreme Court, right? The Merrick Garland moment when they were able to replace that appointment with one of their own. Six to three. Right. It has been a generational shift in the consolidation of conservative power in the Supreme Court. If I'm a good old conservative, I'm not going to fritter away that power. Why would I immediately allow my Supreme Court and my federal judges to be diminished in their status and power? And I think there will be moments when good people of conscience will stand up.

[David Remnick]

So what stands between us and the ruination of the Constitution is the conscience of good people.

[Anthony Romero]

It's judges. The judges are the front line right now. It's not people in the streets as much. It's really the judges who are playing a critical role in this effort.

[David Remnick]

Where do you think the Rubicon will be on what issue and in what court?

[Anthony Romero]

I think the one I'm most worried about is birthright citizenship.

[David Remnick]

Tell me about that.

[Anthony Romero]

Yeah, that was the first executive order. That was the first case we filed two hours after he signed it. They want to eliminate the right to citizenship if you are born here, which was established when it was in the 14th amendment. It's also in the statute. It's how we created the American citizens out of the children of slaves. It's also the way that we became a nation of immigrants and leveled the playing field. It's the great equalizer, David. And so to go at it and say an executive order saying, I'm gonna repeal birthright citizenship is both trying to undo a core tenet of the Constitution and also the statutory provisions which are equally clear. So we have bel and suspenders on when it comes to birthright citizenship, and they're trying to rip them both off. And that's what's.

[David Remnick]

So if birthright citizenship goes the direction that the Trump administration wants to, which is to say, get rid of it.

[Anthony Romero]

Right.

[David Remnick]

What are the repercussions and what are the actions that could follow if they.

[Anthony Romero]

Were allowed to repeal birthright citizenship? That means that people even who are here lawfully and whose kid is born here would not be a US Citizen.

[David Remnick]

Do we have any sense of the number of people that would be in jeopardy?

[Anthony Romero]

There would be hundreds of thousands. You know, we have clients already in our. In our litigation who are pregnant women, who are. Whose children will be born after the date of the executive order, whose citizenship would be called into question.

[David Remnick]

So siblings would be potentially rent apart, and parents and children would be rent apart as well.

[Anthony Romero]

And you would have this. You would create a legal vehicle for intergenerational stigma and discrimination. I mean, it's like any of us who've traveled to places like Germany or Japan, these countries still struggle with what it means to be a German citizen or a Japanese citizen. You see the discrimination against Koreans in Japan, that's generations. That's because they haven't had a concept like birthright citizenship like the way we do.

[David Remnick]

What court is your suit filed in?

[Anthony Romero]

It's in the First Circuit, it's in federal court.

[David Remnick]

And describe the First Circuit and the potential fate of this case.

[Anthony Romero]

It's a good. We picked the First Circuit. You know, we're good lawyers, so we think about the clients. I mean, there are four different lawsuits that I keep track of. Ours was the first two hours after he signed. That means that we were working up this lawsuit for months, months, identifying the clients, identifying the theories, identifying the venues, honing the pleadings. So as soon as we could see the executive order, we could fill it in and file, literally, on a federal holiday, Martin Luther King Day.

[David Remnick]

Who else has filed birthright citizenship?

[Anthony Romero]

We have the attorneys general. We have many of them on the East Coast. I think there are two cases on the east coast, one case on the West Coast. And the attorneys general are important contributions because they're making administrative arguments like, how the hell are we supposed to implement this? I looked at my birth certificate. I found it. And it basically said, anthony D. Romero, son of Demetrio and Coralie Romero, born in New York City. There's no vehicle for these states to kind of to corroborate the citizenship of the parents. How are they gonna kind of do the administrative investigations on whether or not you're a citizen if you lose? We ain't gonna lose.

[David Remnick]

Okay. But if you lose, that court could then send it. It would then be sent to the Supreme Court.

[Anthony Romero]

It would go up. It would go up into the federal Court of Appeals and then the Supreme Court.

[David Remnick]

And knowing what you know about the Supreme Court, ideologically, politically, I think we win. You win anyway.

[Anthony Romero]

We win anyway.

[David Remnick]

Because you have to say that.

[Anthony Romero]

No, no. I've never been this bold. I've been in my job 23 years. I don't usually predict the outcome of our cases because my heart's been broken multiple times.

[David Remnick]

And you didn't think your heart will be broken again?

[Anthony Romero]

No. Why? Because I think this is really, really going a step too far. I think Roberts and the majority of the court, Alito and Thomas are the only ones I can't bet on. But I think even Gorsuch and Kavanaugh and Amy Coney Barrett and certainly the three liberals are there at a point where the Supreme Court would eviscerate their legitimacy among constituents and audiences that really care. I care a lot about the Supreme Court.

[David Remnick]

Is your confidence specific to birthright citizenship, or is it across the board where.

[Anthony Romero]

Executive directors citizenship, the rest of it is more for grabs?

[David Remnick]

Where else could you locate a constitutional crisis that's now happening or in the.

[Anthony Romero]

Process of doing, I think these other suits around congressional appropriation of funds that are now being disregarded by the executive branch, those very well could be the precipitating factor for a constitutional crisis.

[David Remnick]

What happens when and if there is a constitutional crisis? What happens if a White House refuses to obey a court order? A federal judge called out the Trump administration for blatantly ignoring an order to resume federal funding for the Office of Management and Budget that had been frozen? What can you do if Trump simply ignores the judges and doesn't want to listen to anybody and just directs his people to keep doing what they're doing? What possible authority or power does anyone have in this, much less the ACLU.

[Anthony Romero]

If you keep running the gauntlet? I mean, that Judge, Judge McConnell, that's the Rhode island judge I think you're referencing.

[David Remnick]

That's right.

[Anthony Romero]

Basically, the Trump administration is arguing, not that we don't have to heed you. They argue in their response to the judge. No, we are heeding you. We think your order was more limited. The judge then clarified on Monday, earlier in the week, saying that, no, he had meant for them to reinstate all the grants writ large. So this will continue to move up the food chain. The crisis moment comes when the Supreme Court rules, let's say with Judge McConnell and says the Trump administration has fragrantly disregarded a clear judicial order and thou must comply. And if they don't comply, then we're in a different moment. So we have to exhaust all the remedies. We have to get fines. We have to ask for incarceration of individuals who flagrantly disregard judicial orders.

[David Remnick]

And then if we and that includes.

[Anthony Romero]

That includes the federal agents the federal.

[David Remnick]

Agency heads, and it also includes the President of the United States, if he.

[Anthony Romero]

Himself or the Vice president. Sure, sure. No one's above the law, right?

[David Remnick]

Anthony Romero is the director of the American Civil Liberties Union and will continue our conversation in a moment. This is the New Yorker Radio Hour.

[Unknown Announcer]

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[David Remnick]

You about the Late Show Pod show.

[Unknown Announcer]

Which is the podcast of the Late show with my producer Becca Becko.

[Anthony Romero]

What's what's up?

[Unknown Announcer]

So the Late Show Pod show is.

[Anthony Romero]

Everything you love about the Late show on a podcast. I want to know about you. Enough people see everybody in an ad.

[Unknown Announcer]

Talks about the thing they're trying to sell. I'd like to know about you, the person behind creating the podcast.

[Anthony Romero]

I'm having a really good day.

[David Remnick]

Barry baked some bread and my friend.

[Anthony Romero]

Kara got me some chicken salad.

[David Remnick]

It's a really nice day in the office today.

[Unknown Announcer]

Listen to the Late Show Pod show with Stephen Colbert wherever you get your podcasts.

[David Remnick]

This is the New Yorker Radio Hour. I'm David Remnick, and I'm speaking today with the director of the American Civil Liberties Union, Anthony Romero. The ACLU is one of the oldest civil rights organization in the country. It dates back to 1920. And when it comes to issues of free speech, the ACLU has defended the Ku Klux Klan and more recently, the organizers of the 2017 Charlottesville rally in the Westboro Baptist Church, which is often called a hate group. But the ACLU is closely associated as well with liberal causes. It's fought the Trump administration and state officials tooth and nail on issues like immigration. So I'll continue my conversation now with the ACLU's Anthony Romero.

[Anthony Romero]

I mean, we've been here before. Like, for instance, we've had two lawsuits. I dug them up yesterday. We've had two different lawsuits years ago against Sheriff Arpaio and Kris Kobach.

[David Remnick]

Back up and explain those cases a little bit.

[Anthony Romero]

Sheriff Joe Arpaio was someone who was trying to round up immigrants. He was tough on immigrants in Arizona. SB 1070, show me your papers guy, right? He was corralling people up and kind of having Gestapo, like law enforcement efforts focus on immigrants. And Kris Kobach was the one who was trying to purge people from the polls who he thought which was where in Kansas. And both of these individuals, we sued and we won. And they didn't like the fact that we won. And so they tried to defy these court orders. In both of those instances, we would have to litigate the implementation of their contempt. And so you would threaten them with fines and threaten them with incarceration.

[David Remnick]

Ultimately, you're going to do that with the President of the United States?

[Anthony Romero]

You bet. And part of it is to figure out how you can bring in people into the debate who are otherwise on the side of Donald Trump and Elon Musk and to say, wait a minute, this is a step too far.

[David Remnick]

Who are we talking about?

[Anthony Romero]

There are many conservatives. Some of them I've just begun to talk to yesterday to kind of run by them. If he openly defies a court order, what can we do together now if we do not succeed, let's say no one comes, the cavalry doesn't ride, and the Alamo is by itself, then what? Then we've got to take to the streets in a different way. We've got to shut down this country. And people of right and left, what does that mean? You know, we're just beginning to think it through. We're talking with colleagues and other organizations. There's gotta be a moment when people of goodwill will just say, this is way too far.

[David Remnick]

And I do think, what's the historical precedent for that anywhere?

[Anthony Romero]

Well, there have been efforts. You know, Marbur versus Madison was a case when the crucial case, the original, the crucial case when the government tried to snub its nose at the role of the Supreme Court. The Supreme Court was not what it was, is not as powerful or established an institution it is today. You had fdr, who tried to pack the court. It's not new that presidents bristle at judicial oversight. I mean, Clinton passed some of the most egregious court stripping measures, for example, where he basically tried to get the courts out of the business of looking at prisons rights cases or immigrants rights cases. And that had to be litigated. And you had to check the Clinton effort to say, hey, I'm not.

[David Remnick]

But I can just hear the listener's mind saying, okay, that was Bill Clinton, and that was bad enough. This is a person, an executive, a politician of a very, very different order.

[Anthony Romero]

Totally agree, totally agree. And we've got to take it one step at a time.

[David Remnick]

And when you say shut the country down and take to the streets, who's doing that? What does that mean?

[Anthony Romero]

I think you have to call on, for instance, corporate leaders. We'll have to yank them into the pool with us if they believe that part of what is going to protect good corporate interests or the workings of the economy is rule of law. There's gotta be a moment when people are saying, can you countenance this? I mean, President Biden had a number of instances where he also bristled at judicial oversight and judicial review. I mean, he hated the effort to shut down his student loan program. That's one of his signature programs. Never got it through because the courts got in his way. But it's really quite another matter when there's a final order of the highest court of the land and the president just says, doesn't bother me. Don't have to heed you or hear you. That is a moment when I think we'll be able to harvest the opinions of people and get people engaged in a very different way. And it won't matter the content. It will matter whether or not we will allow an executive branch to assume such extreme power.

[David Remnick]

Haven't the courts, though, changed in recent years? I mean, Donald Trump had a healthy long time to install a lot of.

[Anthony Romero]

28% of the federal judges.

[David Remnick]

And have you seen that difference in your cases?

[Anthony Romero]

Sure, sure. And they're on the bench and sometimes they watch his back and sometimes they rule in ways that are kind of head scratching in terms of how far they will go to protect the person who put them on the bench. Also true, 65% of the judges have been appointed by Obama and Biden. So there's a larger number of them that will change as they start to move judicial appointments. I mean, what's in front of us? I mean, let's talk a little bit. What else might be in front of us? Right?

[David Remnick]

Yep.

[Anthony Romero]

That's not just the onslaught of the executive orders. Now this is where I'm gonna curl or uncurl your listener's hair, depending on their hair. I have no hair. But for instance, we have yet not seen the mass deportations that I think are on the horizon. When they start revving up that machinery, that's gonna be massive. Right. So that's number one. I think the deportations is something to watch out for.

[David Remnick]

Have you looked at the polls on how people favor deportations?

[Anthony Romero]

Yeah. Yeah. But when they start seeing that their nannies or their gardeners or their fellow workers or the local shoe shine guy or their neighbors or their neighbors are getting ripped and that US Citizen kids are put in, then kind of family protective services as a result of it, when they start seeing. Because what they ran on was saying we're going to get rid of the criminals, well, that's clearly not what they're doing already. But when they really ramp up and they start grabbing all these individuals who are part of the social fabric, I think we'll harvest that.

[David Remnick]

Now we've already seen ICE scoop up US Citizens and immigrants not convicted of crimes. What's the legal path to protect people in schools, in churches, daycare centers from the threat of deportation?

[Anthony Romero]

Well, there are sanctuary city laws and sanctuary jurisdiction laws that are, in fact.

[David Remnick]

Which are the source of contempt for the Republican Party.

[Anthony Romero]

Yeah. And they can be defended. And it's important that, like, for instance, the litigation they're bringing against the city of Chicago, we think is really far afield. They cannot use the power of the purse in pulling money from roads and hospitals and schools to pressure them on immigration, and that's gotta be challenged in court. The governors and the state attorneys general, especially in the blue states, have enormous power to put up roadblocks. I mean, for instance, one of the things that Trump administration find that they're.

[David Remnick]

Feeling their sense of authority or are they backing off?

[Anthony Romero]

I think some of the governors are beginning to find their sense of authority in Colorado, in New Mexico. How about New York, in New York? We're working on it.

[David Remnick]

You're not confident of Governor Hochul?

[Anthony Romero]

Well, I think the governor's really working with us. I think the mayor is a bit more complicated on the immigrants rights issue. Eric Adams in New York, I think it's complicated.

[David Remnick]

Complicated as a euphemism. For what?

[Anthony Romero]

For not what we like to be standing up, not what we want it to be.

[David Remnick]

You talk about a firewall of freedom, A firewall of freedom using state and local laws to protect people from federal actions that might violate their rights. So what legal protections need, I think.

[Anthony Romero]

On immigrants in particular, I think the governors have enormous power and latitude. They can't obstruct federal immigration enforcement, but they don't have to collude. There are shield laws that I think the governors can also enact for trans kids, for trans individuals. Like you saw Letitia James in New York, when there's one kind of executive order then triggered the shutting down of access to medical care in New York City hospitals with people who had private insurance. The New York attorney general stepped up and said, wait a minute, if you start canceling those appointments, you're gonna run afoul of our state laws.

[David Remnick]

Let's talk about that. You're suing the Trump administration for his executive order forcing passports to reflect gender assigned at birth, which is laid out a very narrow binary definition of gender, as many people understand it. What's the point of Trump making that claim? And how do you form a legal case against it and him?

[Anthony Romero]

It's fear mongering. It's clear. It's Fear mongering. It's a card that he played in the election. You saw the ads he ran.

[David Remnick]

It's also the ads being she's for they them.

[Anthony Romero]

I'm for you. Right. It was clear fear mongering of a community 1.5 million people who are really under assault. You have over 500 state laws that have been targeted on the trans community. It's really an onslaught the likes of which we haven't seen in generations. And part of what our case. We have both this case and we have the one on the transgender affirming health care is to make equal protection arguments.

[David Remnick]

Where are you on gender affirming care for trans youth?

[Anthony Romero]

So that was a case we had first in the Supreme Court. We argued the Scrametti case, which is.

[David Remnick]

Explain that.

[Anthony Romero]

Challenging a Tennessee statute that was banning gender affirming health care for minors. And so we were in court arguing that that violated the equal protection of Tennessee citizens, including parents who are our clients in this case. Parents who decide that this isn't the case.

[David Remnick]

Is the ACLU for gender affirming care for minors without permission of parents?

[Anthony Romero]

No, no. It's always with parents in the loop. Minors don't have the same protections under the law that adults do. That's part of what we're doing in the passport case. If we go back to the passport case, I mean, it's both equal protection because people are subject harassment and violence if they're misidentified with the wrong gender on their passports, it's open hunting season for them. But there's also a free speech right here. David. It's just like, how can the government tell me that I cannot. I can change my name. I can legally change my name. I can change it to Antonia tomorrow. They can't stop me from doing that. So there are good First Amendment arguments also on the passports case as well.

[David Remnick]

The ACLU has fought for the free speech of. Of leftist students on campus, as well as somebody like Ann Coulter. Your traditional defense of the First Amendment is bipartisan. But when a gazillionaire like Elon Musk buys a social media platform and brings Nazis back to it, how does the ACLU absorb that?

[Anthony Romero]

You know, I think the same principles apply. Right. It's just that we have to make sure that the government stays out of the business of regulating people's private speech. That is probably my biggest concern right now. That hasn't yet materialized or matured, but it may.

[David Remnick]

Were you comfortable with the way Facebook and Twitter barred certain people from.

[Anthony Romero]

No. You were not comfortable with no, we criticized Facebook and Twitter when they deplatformed Donald Trump. I mean, they kept people like Bolsonaro and Orban on, but they deplatformed Trump. We felt that they were not calling balls and strikes as they saw them, and we applauded them when they re platformed them.

[David Remnick]

So are you pleased that, say, Mark Zuckerberg has changed his policy on Facebook?

[Anthony Romero]

No, I think Facebook is afforded a lot of latitude because it's a private entity, the right to set its terms of service.

[David Remnick]

I think there are some people that would argue that within the ACLU there was a sense of argument and conflict over essential matters having to do with free speech. Platforming, not platforming. Would the ACLU today defend the right of American Nazis to march in Skokie, Illinois?

[Anthony Romero]

You bet. We just took the NRA case a year ago. The NRA came to us saying, you're the best litigant litigation organization on free speech. This was a case of Governor Cuomo.

[David Remnick]

Right.

[Anthony Romero]

And the administration trying to shut down the NRA because they didn't agree with its pro gun policies. And we saw it as a free speech issue and we brought that case and won. 9, 0.

[David Remnick]

How do you feel about cases at, say, universities where protesters shut down a speaker?

[Anthony Romero]

No, the heckler's veto is a problem. Right. You have a right to free speech, but you don't have a right to shut down information. Debate discussions. There are limits.

[David Remnick]

Let's go back to the first Trump administration of the hundreds of legal battles you oversaw in that first term.

[Anthony Romero]

434.

[David Remnick]

What do you think of as your biggest legal victory and what was your biggest legal defeat?

[Anthony Romero]

I think the biggest victories had to do with family separation. When we were able to stop them in their tracks on separating families as a deterrent to people coming to this country. It was a massive moment where people from across the political spectrum came together. Laura Bush was tweeting on this. And it was a moment when we were able to use both the courts and public opinion to kind of put pressure on the Trump administration, ultimately rescinding their own kind of policy guidance, their zero tolerance guidance on this one. I think the other ones had to do with the US Census when they tried to purge the count of. Of immigrants, of undocumented immigrants in the U.S. census. We litigated that twice to the Supreme Court in front of the Roberts Supreme Court and won. So I think there were.

[David Remnick]

Those are victories. What about defeats?

[Anthony Romero]

The building of the wall? That was litigation we brought to try to stop the misappropriation of funds from one Agency to build the wall in the South. And that just. Was that a weak case figured out? It was a hard case. It was a hard case because you're dealing with the ability for the government to enforce its borders, which is really recognized by the courts and the general public.

[David Remnick]

Do you sense in the political and public world any politicians who are forcefully, clearly and effectively speaking up for what you're talking about?

[Anthony Romero]

I'm looking. I mean, I think there are looking.

[David Remnick]

I'm looking and not finding you.

[Anthony Romero]

It's. There's a lot of mumbling. There's a lot of. You see the articles about how some Democrats are trying to find their feet from under them.

[David Remnick]

What's the problem?

[Anthony Romero]

I don't have to run for office.

[David Remnick]

Right?

[Anthony Romero]

Right. I don't have to be popular when I file my transgender rights lawsuit. I don't need 51% of the American people to agree with me. I know what's right. The equal protection arguments are what's right. I think Democrats have a harder job because they're trying to figure out how. When he's picked a fight with them on the culture war.

[David Remnick]

Let me ask you a question. If they're not going to stand up now, when will they stand up? And for what?

[Anthony Romero]

It's a great question. It's a great question.

[David Remnick]

Are you despairing of it?

[Anthony Romero]

No, I think it comes around. I compare this moment, David, to the 911 moment. Right. That's when I started my job. The week before 9 11, you remember, the Patriot act was enacted with everyone's assent in Congress except for one, Russ Feingold. And so I tell my folks back at the aclu, this is a time we have to ride this moment just like we did after 9 11, where we have to build public momentum. The war on terror was very popular. The deportations that John Ashcroft did, the creation of Gitmo as a place to hold people and detain them. The whole question around Gitmo is about.

[David Remnick]

To get a new lease on life.

[Anthony Romero]

Potentially, and they're gonna try. And we're litigating that one, too.

[David Remnick]

One of the characteristics of the moment we're living in and the weeks that we're living in is the absolute speed and volume of what's coming out of the White House. What Steve Bannon called flood the zone with shit. That's the strategy. And it's being enacted with real efficiency and real skill as compared to the first.

[Anthony Romero]

But the Zone is responding. And look. So there are more than 50 or so executive orders that have come down. There are more than 40 lawsuits that have been filed in response. It's really quite a different moment. People realize that the zone is being flooded, and it requires us to coordinate with each other in a way I haven't seen before.

[David Remnick]

You sound pretty confident.

[Anthony Romero]

I'm not. You know, I'm not sure. I'm confident in the ultimate outcome. I'm confident in the response that we're engaged with. I mean, we have filed over 10 lawsuits already in three weeks. You know, those are real lawsuits. Those are real with plaintiffs and filings and real theories.

[David Remnick]

One of the seminal texts that's been published in the last past decade, certainly about the warning about authoritarianism, is Timothy Snyder's on Tyranny. And he warns against knuckling under in advance and warning against exhaustion. Do you see that or do you see the opposite?

[Anthony Romero]

Knuckling under in advance. You see that in other places. I mean, look at. That's what a lot of these tech leaders, that beautiful parade of billionaires who were so preening for the camera behind the president as he took the oath of office. Now, I know some of them personally, and I know that some of them were there because they felt they had to to defend their corporate interests, their shareholder interests.

[David Remnick]

Who do you know and who you're talking about?

[Anthony Romero]

That's better? Not to kiss and tell on radio, but I think there, the knuckling under, you definitely see it in the private sector. I think the fatigue factor is a matter of pacing ourselves. This is one of the things I tell my folks. I say, yeah, we filed 10 suits already. We have another three or four in the hopper for the next week or so.

[David Remnick]

Is it possible to pace yourself considering the ferocity and speed at which things are happening? You've got shots.

[Anthony Romero]

You've got to. You've got to retain bandwidth. If we run the gauntlet and we file all the cases that we need to right now and then don't have the ability to file them in years two, three, and four, we'll do the country no good. We have to play this game smartly, and we are picking and choosing our battles. There are some of them we say, let another group run.

[David Remnick]

Who are your allies?

[Anthony Romero]

Democracy Forward. The American Federation for government employees. FGE, EAFL, CIO, Planned Parenthood. There's a list of us, there's about 50 or 60 of us who talk multiple times a day. And so we say, okay, you got that case, we got this case.

[David Remnick]

How do those conversations begin? With a long moan?

[Anthony Romero]

No, they're just kind of. Everyone's very pragmatic, very focused on what the moment requires of us. And it might take us five years or 10 years, but we will get there. And I think if we say on it like water on stone and I run an organization, do we have five.

[David Remnick]

Years or 10 years? I mean, when you're talking about the health or even the existence of the Constitution and rule of law, do we have time like that?

[Anthony Romero]

There will be flashpoints, the defiance of a final judicial order.

[David Remnick]

There will be flashpoints and there will be blood.

[Anthony Romero]

There will be blood and there will be a need for groups to then pick up the pieces from where we are then. And I think organizations like mine that have been around 105 years have to think about the staying power. What we do today is critical. What we do in 10 years, in 15 and 20 years is going to be equally critical. And that's why we just have to stay on it.

[David Remnick]

Anthony Romero, thank you very much.

[Anthony Romero]

My pleasure, David. Thank you.

[David Remnick]

Anthony Romero has been the executive director of the ACLU since 2001. I'm David Remnick. Thanks for joining us and see you next week.

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The New Yorker Radio Hour is a co production of of WNYC Studios and the New Yorker. Our theme music was composed and performed by Meryl Garbus of Tune Yards, with additional music by Louis Mitchell and Jared Paul. This episode was produced by Max Balton, Adam Howard, David Krasnow, Jeffrey Masters, Louis Mitchell, Jared Paul and Ursula Sommer, with guidance from Emily Botin and assistance from Michael May, David Gable, Alex Barsch, Victor Gwan and Alejandra Deckett. The New Yorker Radio Hour is supported in part by the Cherina Endowment Fund. Hi, I'm Lauren Good. I'm a senior writer at Wired. I'm Michael Colori, Wired's Director of Consumer Tech and Culture. And I'm Zoe Schiffer, Director of Business and Industry. And we're the host of Wired's Uncanny Valley. It's a show about the people, power and influence of Silicon Valley. Every week we get together to talk about how technology and culture from the Valley are influencing our everyday lives. The Internet really was no longer about the early days. It was about minting money. He was swapping out the hoodie for a suit and it just became like the shorthand for, I'm the Silicon Valley hustle coder guy. Or we'll dive deep into the history of some of Silicon Valley's most important institutions and figures. So a lot of people point to parallels between Sam Altman and Steve Jobs. Very good for engagement, for Meta, for its bottom line, possibly or probably bad for humanity. I don't know if there's any single person that I would trust with this. Whether you're optimistic or absolutely terrified about what Silicon Valley will do next, this is the podcast for you. We'll be there to bring the analysis and reporting you can only get from Wired. Listen to and follow Wired's uncanny valley wherever you get your podcasts.