The American Bombs Falling on Yemen

Summary

Podcast Summary:

The New Yorker Radio Hour – “The American Bombs Falling on Yemen”
Host: David Remnick
Date: March 27, 2018

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Main Theme & Purpose

This compelling episode, hosted by David Remnick, investigates the devastating impact of the U.S.-backed Saudi air campaign on Yemen, focusing on its human consequences through the life and tragic death of Abdelkader Hilal Al Dabab (Hilal), the dedicated mayor of Sana'a. Reporter Nicholas Niarchos provides a personal lens by following Hilal’s story, his pivotal role as a peacemaker, and the ripple effect of his loss after an American-made bomb killed him and many others at a funeral in Sana'a—highlighting not just the conflict’s complexity, but America’s significant, enabling role.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

Setting the Stage: America’s Involvement in Yemen

• David Remnick introduces the episode by contextualizing the ongoing U.S. support for the Saudi-led war in Yemen, quoting the alarming frequency of airstrikes and bipartisan questioning of continued involvement.
  • “It's a relentless bombing campaign … an estimated 120 airstrikes a day every single day. And the planes and bombs and logistical support … come … from the United States.” (00:33)

The Story of Hilal: A Life of Mediation and Service

• Nicholas Niarchos details Hilal’s rise from district head to mayor of Sana’a, emphasizing his dedication to local governance and his reputation as a patient mediator able to defuse tense situations with humor or firmness.

  • “He always used to position himself as a middleman and a useful link between disputed parties to resolve issues peacefully.” (03:11 — Hussein Aldab, Hilal’s son)
  • “He could have been seen as a carpet bagger, an outsider, but he clearly had a knack for the job. He listened.” (02:29 — April Alley, ICG)

• Personal Accounts:

  • April Alley: Recounts his patience, mediation efforts, and ability to use humor in tense situations. (02:17–03:20)
  • Hussein Aldab: Shares his father’s steadfastness and reluctance to flee conflict, committing to staying and serving Sana’a even as many politicians fled for safety.
    • “His number one duty was to make the life normal despite the conflicts, despite the bombs.” (04:17)

The Funeral Tragedy: A Personal and Political Catastrophe

• The Attack:

  • Hilal attended a high-profile funeral in Sana’a’s Grand Hall—a regular act of public engagement, despite his family's worries about security.

    • “I know my father very well and he would not listen, or at least he would tell me that he's gonna send the wrong message … that he is not brave enough to go there.” (06:42 — Hussein Aldab)

  • Shortly after the funeral began, the hall was attacked by two air-dropped bombs—a “double tap” airstrike:

    • “When the first muscle hit the hole, my father was sitting against a wall. That wall collapsed in him … The second missile hit the, hit the hole. The pressure threw us away outside the hall and there were a lot of flames. The fire was everywhere.” (11:38 — Hussein Aldab)
    • Casualties: Over 140 killed, 500+ injured.

• Forensic Evidence:

  • Amid the rubble, civilians found bomb fragments clearly labeled “Made in the USA.”
    • “A tail fin from one of the bombs manufactured by Raytheon… modified Mark 82 bomb with a laser guidance system called a Paveway 2 manufactured in Arizona and Texas.” (14:05 — Nicholas Niarchos)

America’s Intimate Role and Responsibility

• Bruce Riedel, former CIA officer:

  • Explains that the Royal Saudi Air Force’s airpower, weapons, intelligence, and even in-flight refueling are overwhelmingly American- and British-supplied.
    • “The Royal Saudi Air Force is basically an American and British creation … the bombs, the munitions are built in the United States and the United Kingdom.” (15:34)
    • “If the United States decided today that it was going to cut off supplies … the Royal Saudi Air Force, it would be grounded tomorrow.” (16:13)

• Motivations for Continued Support:

  • U.S. realpolitik—balancing Iran nuclear deal progress with Saudi regional interests.
  • Economic incentives: billions in arms contracts.
    • “Saudis are spending somewhere around $5 billion a month on this war … much of that … ends up in the United States of America, in the hands of American defense contractors.” (17:08)

The Humanitarian Toll

• April Alley & Bruce Riedel:
  • Both underscore Yemen's dire condition: the world’s worst humanitarian disaster, looming famine, and a record-setting cholera outbreak.
    • “Over 8 million are on the brink of famine. It has over 1 million suspected cholera cases, which is the largest … cholera outbreak on record in modern history.” (17:55–18:06)
  • With Yemen the poorest Arab country, bombing by the wealthiest, the crisis is presented as both preventable and scandalous.

Blowback & Prospects for Peace

• Long-term fallout:

  • U.S. complicity breeds resentment and sows the seeds for extremism:
    • “We're stoking the fires of a generation that's going to want revenge.” (18:35 — Bruce Riedel)

• Need for Ceasefire and Dialogue:

  • Riedel advocates for the U.S. to use its leverage for a ceasefire, lifting the blockade, and brokering peace.
    • “At the end of the day, this problem can only really be resolved by Yemenis. They need to get back into a dialogue to have regional players stop interfering.” (19:29)

• Loss of Yemen’s Peacemakers:

  • The funeral bombing wiped out a swathe of the country’s mediators—Hilal among many.
    • “A whole generation of potential peacemakers were killed that day.” (20:01 — Nicholas Niarchos paraphrasing U.S. officials)
    • “It killed a group of people who were acting as go-betweens, who were pragmatic and who could also really have influence.” (20:11 — April Alley)

Personal Grief and Hope

• Hussein Aldab’s Perspective:
  • He resists simplistic blame, instead citing collective responsibility and expressing resolve to continue his father's legacy.
    • “I'm not sure if I should hold someone responsible for this, because all parties was involved, either directly or indirectly… We need to make peace.” (21:08)
    • “I have to go back. I have to serve my country, my people, and I feel obligated to do so. And I feel obligated to follow the path of my father.” (21:50)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• David Remnick (Host):

  • “It’s not a war in the way we normally think of it. It’s a relentless bombing campaign with an estimated 120 airstrikes a day…” (00:33)

• April Alley (ICG):

  • “He, on numerous occasions … was very patiently spending time with each group … doing mediation.” (02:48)
  • “The fact that he had the ability to leave … yet he stayed in Sana'a and continued to work for the city.” (05:12)

• Bruce Riedel (fmr. CIA):

  • “If the United States decided today that it was going to cut off supplies … the Royal Saudi Air Force … would be grounded tomorrow.” (16:13)
  • “We’re stoking the fires of a generation that’s going to want revenge.” (18:35)
  • “They need to get back into a dialogue to have regional players stop interfering in their politics…” (19:29)

• Hussein Aldab (Hilal’s son):

  • “I don't want to go through who to blame … We need to make peace.” (21:08)
  • “I have to go back. I have to serve my country, my people, and I feel obligated to do so.” (21:50)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• 00:33 – Introduction: U.S. role in Yemen’s war
• 01:22–05:12 – Hilal’s career and character; efforts to keep Sana'a functioning
• 05:40–11:38 – The lead-up to the funeral and the double-tap airstrike
• 14:05 – Raytheon bomb fragment; U.S. arms in the spotlight
• 15:34–17:33 – The U.S.-Saudi military relationship explained
• 17:39–18:24 – Humanitarian crisis: famine, cholera, poverty
• 18:35–19:17 – Long-term consequences and U.S. reputational risk
• 19:29–20:35 – Prospects for peace; role of peacemakers
• 20:45–22:08 – Hussein’s outlook and resolve to serve

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Episode Tone & Language

The tone throughout is earnest, empathetic, and somber, with interviews and narration focusing on personal loss, systemic failure, and the nuances of blame and hope. Direct quotes from those affected, especially Hussein and April Alley, humanize the conflict, while Bruce Riedel’s policy analysis grounds it in geopolitical reality.

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Summary

With meticulous storytelling and on-the-ground testimonies, this episode exposes the tragic interplay of foreign policy, local leadership, and human suffering in Yemen. The loss of Hilal underscores the conflict’s cost—not just in lives lost, but also in bridges to peace destroyed. Ultimately, the episode lays bare the role of American bombs in Yemen’s agony, the futility of the air campaign, and the urgent, fragile hope that local dialogue and international restraint might point to another path.

Transcript

[Alex Barron]

This is rural trade center bound, One.

[Bruce Riedel]

World Observatory straight up the block for.

[David Remnick]

West Boulevard and makes that right.

[Nicholas Niarchos]

They didn't break that, but they have.

[Alex Barron]

Pretty good access to those people.

[Gia Tolentino]

Subconsciously mocks that lineage.

[Hussein Aldab]

So that's happening. It seems like an incredible story here on many fronts.

[David Remnick]

From one World Trade center in Manhattan, this is the New Yorker Radio Hour, a co production of WNYC studios and the New Yorker.

Welcome to the New Yorker Radio Hour. I'm David Remnick. Last week the Senate blocked a war powers resolution that would have checked America's support of the disastrous war in Yemen. But in both parties, senators and other prominent figures are asking if the time has finally come to cut off or reduce our involvement in Saudi Arabia's campaign there. It's not a war in the way we normally think of it. It's a relentless bombing campaign with an estimated 120 airstrikes a day every single day. And the planes and bombs and logistical support for the Saudi Air Force come to a very significant degree from the United States. The New Yorker's Nicholas Niarchos has been reporting on the war in Yemen for the magazine. And he wanted to show us the impact of the bombing on just one person.

[Nicholas Niarchos]

Abdelkader Hilal Al Dabab, known to everyone as Hilal, went into politics in yemen in the 1970s. He'd go wherever the central government sent him. Again and again he uprooted his family and settled in a new town, a new district.

[Hussein Aldab]

He was head of district for a year and a half. After that he was appointed in a tens district which was a border between the south and north of Yemen for over seven years.

[Nicholas Niarchos]

That's his son Hussain, who's in his late 20s now.

[Hussein Aldab]

In fact, the conflict in that district resulted of assassination of his two previous predecessors.

[Nicholas Niarchos]

The assassination of his two previous predecessors. Politics in Yemen is that hard. It's been in some state of civil war for decades. The infighting runs along deep divisions, geographic, religious, tribal and and so on. But Hillel survived the job.

[April Alley]

I think what struck me most about Hillel in the first meeting was really his dedication and his passion for this idea of local governance.

[Nicholas Niarchos]

Iqbal Ali first met Hilal when she was a Fulbright scholar in Yemen. Now she works for an ngo, the International Crisis Group. At the time, Hilal was overseeing a district far from his home. Ali says he could have been seen as a carpet bagger, an outsider, but he clearly had a knack for the job. He listened.

[April Alley]

I remember on numerous occasions being either at his office or at his home and Watching as he very patiently had people of a revolving door kind of coming in and out of his home or his office. And he was spending time with each group. He was doing mediation. I mean, these tanks take an extraordinary amount of time and require a great deal of listening.

[Hussein Aldab]

He always used to position himself as a middleman and a useful link between disputed parties to resolve issues peacefully.

[April Alley]

I'll have to admit that my Arabic is not good enough to catch the nuances of jokes, but I can say that he was able, in very sticky and very sensitive situations, to use humor to put people at ease.

[Nicholas Niarchos]

His son Hussein notes that sometimes the best peacemakers get angry.

[Hussein Aldab]

It always depends on the situation, his anger toward any party that is not respecting any agreement or doesn't have any morals.

[Nicholas Niarchos]

As he moved around the country, Hilal developed a reputation as an honest broker. Then in 2012, Hilal was appointed to his biggest and most prestigious job yet. He was named the mayor of Sana'. A. Sana' A is Yemen's capital, it's its largest city. About 2 million people live there. And right away he got down to business, trying to make it more livable after years of chaos. Even though soon the city was in the center of a full blown war. It was being bombed.

[Hussein Aldab]

His number one duty was to make the life normal despite the conflicts, despite the bombs. He was making sure that the schools are reopened, hospitals are ready to receive any casualties or any wounded. I remember when the first week of the war, families were trying not to send their kids to the school, and he would come up and talk to the community leaders that if we make the lives stop, we would end up desperate and hopeless.

[Nicholas Niarchos]

Halal ended a garbage collector strike. He made sure that the electricity was turned back on after blackouts, that ambulances had drivers, and he tried to make sure that the city was working. He showed up for every public event that he could. He went early and stayed late. And behind the scenes, he kept trying to broker peace in a country that was spinning out of control.

[April Alley]

Well, I think one of the most important things to point out is the fact that he stayed in Sana', a, the fact that he had the ability to leave. Like so many politicians of his stature who had money and resources, yet he stayed in Sana' a and he continued to work for that city. So Hillel was working closely with all sides of the conflict and also with the UN on how to manage a ceasefire.

[Nicholas Niarchos]

It's 7th October 2016. Hussain is in the United States where he's been studying. He's seen on Facebook that a prominent politician and a close family friend has died and that there's going to be a funeral and he's nervous. Funerals are very, very important in Yemen. If it's an important person from an important family, thousands of people can show up. This funeral will be in the grand hall where Hossein had his wedding. It's one of Sana' A's biggest spaces and it will be filled with politicians. The country is at war. It's not safe.

[Hussein Aldab]

Every time I remember this or talk about this, I get nervous and I can't have hard time to talk about it. So excuse me if my. My voice kind of break down.

[Nicholas Niarchos]

Hussain calls his father late one night. He'd like to tell his father not to go, but he doesn't even consider it. He knows what his father would say.

[Hussein Aldab]

I have to go. And we don't need to worry because war has morals. It's not something that anyone do it to target a big gathering of civilians, especially if it's a funeral or a social occasion. I know my father very well and he would not listen, or at least he would tell me that he's gonna send the wrong message to the public and to his friends that he is not brave enough to go there. Him going to the funeral was not only about showing respect to the family. It's also more about if you're going to an event that's publicly announced and to show that everything is alright and we have to go on with our.

[Nicholas Niarchos]

Life, what could he do?

[Hussein Aldab]

I prayed like, hopefully that everything will.

[Nicholas Niarchos]

Go right on that day. In 2016, the war in Yemen was a year and a half old. So to understand what was going on, we have to go back a bit. Yemen only came into existence in 1990, when north and South Yemen were united by Ali Abdullah Saleh. This makes Saleh a national hero, but he's also a classic strongman. He's brutal to his enemies and slippery with everyone else. The neighboring Saudis don't trust Saleh, but eventually they grit their teeth and they do business with him. When the protest known as the Arab Spring sweep across the region in 2011, Saleh eventually steps aside and his number two, a man named Hadi, takes power. At the same time, a group of armed rebels known as the Houthis also see an opportunity. They seize the capital and depose the new president. When the Houthis seized power, they immediately began antagonizing Saudi Arabia. Bruce Riedel is a former CIA officer who advised four presidents on Middle east policy. At the National Security Council. He explains how things spiraled out of control from there.

[Bruce Riedel]

The Houthis took control of the capital, Sana', A, and then they started marching on the rest of the country. They also announced that they were going to begin closer relations with the Iranians, that they were going to have daily air flights between Tehran and Sana'.

[Gia Tolentino]

A.

[Bruce Riedel]

They were going to let the Iranians build an oil pump in Yemen. All the kinds of things that would spook an anti Iranian government in Saudi Arabia. The Houthis pushed every Saudi button and the Saudis responded.

[Nicholas Niarchos]

They created a partial blockade along the coast so that it was very difficult to get arms, food and medicine into the country. And they began dropping bombs on Yemen, an overwhelming number of bombs.

[Bruce Riedel]

The Saudis official line is that they are promoting the legitimate government of Yemen, the government recognized by the United Nations. And that's true. Your king is saying that the Saudi.

[Hussein Aldab]

Airstrikes which began in Yemen last week.

[Bruce Riedel]

Are going to continue until Saudi Arabia reaches its goals there. What are the goals?

[Hussein Aldab]

The objective is to protect the people of Yemen from a radical organization that has allied with Iran and Hezbollah that has virtually taken over the country. It's to defend the legitimate government of Yemen and it's to open up the way for political talks so that Yemen can move complete its transition period and move towards a better place.

[Nicholas Niarchos]

The Saudis rationale was that a show of force would drive the Houthis out of Sana' A and to the negotiating table. But as the bombing continued, the Houthis went nowhere. And it was the people of Sana' a who had to live under the bombardment. Hilal, the mayor, was trying to keep his city together. The morning after Hussein spoke with his father, he wakes up and immediately checks Facebook for updates on the funeral. The first thing he sees are amateur videos like this one. Details are spotty, but there are reports that the grand hall and the thousands of mourners there have been hit. Nobody knows who was injured, who has died. Hossein calls Yemen. He calls Yemen again and again and again and nobody picks up. Only days later, after flying home, does he sit with his father's security guards and learn exactly what happened.

[Hussein Aldab]

After probably two hours or an hour and a half, while they're in the hall, he heard the JIT above the the hole. And he mentioned that to my father. My father kind of ignored him. Doesn't want to give any attention to the air jets as like nothing happening. And then the second time it came closer and he told him, sir, that's an air jet. It sits above us. And he looked into him, into his eyes and said, listen son, I'm not leaving until the end of the event. The third time, the idiot came much closer and shook the hall. And the guard heard the muscle sound and he screamed to my father saying, that's a rocket, sir. And my father just, he didn't move or stood up or anything. He just smiled to him. And that's when the first muscle hit the hull. Okay, so when the first muscle hit the hole, my father was sitting against a wall. That wall collapsed in him. One of the guards, he said, he all of us blacked out. I managed to stood up. There was a smoke dust and was hard to see. We couldn't hear anything. But I realized that we were hit by a missile. As soon as I realized what happening, I rushed into where your father was and we tried to dig in and take all the dust and stones from him. I just, I was trying to take all the stones. The second missile hit the, hit the hole. The pressure threw us away outside the hall and there were a lot of flames. The fire was everywhere. Everyone was screaming, everyone was rushing. Everyone was shocked by what had happened. They took all the stones out. They urged him to the ambulance, which not equipped with any medical equipment to rescue him. They took him to the hospital and apparently he. He lost his life already before they arrived.

[Nicholas Niarchos]

140 people were killed and over 500 were injured in what turned out to be a double tap Airstrike two bombs. It was and remains the deadliest attack of the war. After a brief investigation, the Saudis blamed faulty intelligence for bombing a civilian gathering. But by that time, pictures coming out of Yemen revealed something else. A tail fin from one of the bombs manufactured by Raytheon. It is a modified Mark 82 bomb with a laser guidance system called a Paveway 2 manufactured in Arizona and Texas. This was not a fact lost on the Yemenis protesting the strike.

[David Remnick]

Thousands pour into the capital Sana' A to bury their mayor among some 140 people killed and 500 others injured in an apparent Saudi led coalition airstrike two days earlier.

[Bruce Riedel]

The leader of the Houthis wagged his.

[Hussein Aldab]

Finger at the US.

[Bruce Riedel]

These acts of aggression are ordered from the center of.

[Nicholas Niarchos]

Washington before they are ordered from Riyadh.

[David Remnick]

All this, as Reuters Learns exclusively Some U.S. officials had war warned the Obama administration. The U.S. could in theory be implicated in war crimes for supporting the Saudi led air campaign.

[Nicholas Niarchos]

But this wasn't just in theory. Bruce Riedel agrees. The US is integral to the war.

[Bruce Riedel]

The Royal Saudi Air Force is basically an American and British creation. Overwhelming majority of the aircraft in the Royal Saudi Air Force are either American built or British built. The ordinance they use, the bombs, the munitions are built in the United States and the United Kingdom. Much of the intelligence that they use for carrying out strikes comes from the United States. Air to air refueling, which permits them to carry out operations for longer periods of time, is provided by the United States Air Force. The United States is not a direct party to the war, but we are an enabler of the war. If the United States decided today that it was going to cut off supplies, spare parts, munitions, intelligence and everything else to the Royal Saudi Air Force, it would be grounded tomorrow.

[Nicholas Niarchos]

When the war started, the Obama administration was cutting a nuclear deal with Iran, which the Saudis vehemently opposed. So the administration wasn't going to risk further damaging the relationship with its most powerful Arab ally by cutting off military support, though it did urge the Saudis to be more precise and to avoid civilian casualties.

[Bruce Riedel]

For the last three years, the United States has tried to get the Saudis to be more careful in their bombing raids. I don't see any appreciable change in that situation.

[Nicholas Niarchos]

And the US has always had another incentive.

[Bruce Riedel]

This war uses up a lot of bombs. Saudis are spending somewhere around $5 billion a month on this war. Not all of that is for the air war, but a considerable amount of it is. And much of that $5 billion a month ends up in the United States of America, in the hands of American defense contractors or British defence contractors in London.

[Nicholas Niarchos]

While all these policy calculations were going on, Yemen had gone from bad to worse.

[Bruce Riedel]

The United nations has called Yemen the worst humanitarian crisis in the world today. Sometimes they've said it is the worst humanitarian crisis of our generation. First, there are literally millions of Yemenis who are starving.

[April Alley]

Over 8 million are on the brink of famine. It has over 1 million suspected cholera cases, which is actually the largest, largest cholera outbreak on record in modern history.

[Bruce Riedel]

And you have to bear in mind that Yemen is the poorest country in the Arab world to start with. Three years of war, three years of the richest Arab countries bombing the poorest Arab country and its almost medieval infrastructure have made a bad situation horrific.

[Nicholas Niarchos]

And even if the moral case fails to move you, you might consider self interest. Both Al Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula and the Islamic State have a presence in Yemen.

[Bruce Riedel]

We are building a long term problem here. Not only are many, many Yemenis going to nurse a grudge against Saudi Arabia for the rest of their life, many of them are going to blame America. We're stoking the fires of a generation that's going to want revenge.

[Nicholas Niarchos]

With all the damage the war is causing, Saudi Arabia clearly isn't achieving its goals.

[Bruce Riedel]

I think there's a better way out of this, and I would call it helping the Saudis find an honorable exit from a quagmire. What they've ended up with is a Vietnam style quagmire, only there's no Pacific Ocean between them and Yemen.

[Nicholas Niarchos]

Riedel would like to see the US using its leverage to broker a quiet ceasefire to stop the bombing, stop the blockade, and convince the Houthis to negotiate to reduce the scale of this conflict.

[Bruce Riedel]

At the end of the day, this problem can only really be resolved by Yemenis. They need to get back into a dialogue to have regional players stop interfering in their politics and let them have that kind of dialogue among themselves.

[Nicholas Niarchos]

It's the kind of dialogue that Hilal, the mayor of Sanaa, specialized in. Before the funeral bombing, he'd spent his working life bridging Yemen's divides. All that experience was wiped away. And Hilal was hardly the only victim. A senior State Department official told me that a whole generation of potential peacemakers were killed that day. April Alley says the same thing.

[April Alley]

It killed a group of people who were acting as go betweens, who were pragmatic and who could also really have influence. He had connections with all the groups that mattered inside and the ones outside. And these figures that bring Yemenis together, they're difficult to find. And they're increasingly difficult to find the longer the war goes on.

[Nicholas Niarchos]

I asked Hilal's son, Hussein, what he thought were the chances for peace, if he could even think about peace with the Saudis, given what happened to his father.

[Hussein Aldab]

It's true what they're doing is outrageous, but when you look into a situation, you need to understand where they're coming from. When you look into the reasoning, they're worrying about their borders in the south.

[Nicholas Niarchos]

He's his father's son. It wasn't clear to me if he held nobody responsible or everybody responsible, or if that distinction even mattered to him.

[Hussein Aldab]

I'm not sure if I should hold someone responsible for this, because all parties was involved, either directly or indirectly. The war didn't start because someone wanted to start it. It's because the political parties and political leaders were selfish to think about themselves and about their parties, and they all contributed into this. I don't want to go through who to blame to. I don't want to go through through who to get revenge from. We need to make peace.

[Nicholas Niarchos]

Hussein, who studied accounting in the US could probably build a comfortable life here. But he wants to pick up where his father left off.

[Hussein Aldab]

I have to go back. I have to serve my country, my people, and I feel obligated to do so. And I feel obligated to follow the path of my father. Had.

[David Remnick]

The New Yorker's Nicholas Niarchos speaking with Hussein Aldab. This is the New Yorker Radio Hour. Stick around. This is the New Yorker Radio Hour. Now, football fans have the super bowl. Movie lovers have the Oscars. Now, if you're a dog person and you know who you are, it's not me. The event of the year is the Westminster Kennel Club Dog Show. The best dogs from around the world come to New York for three days to vie for the title of best in Show. Staff writer Gia Tolentino covered the competition for the New Yorker last year. And Gia is a dog person. So this seemed like a no brainer assignment. But being around all those dogs, as it turns out, was a little bit more than she bargained for.

[Gia Tolentino]

So last year I went to the Westminster Kennel Club Dog show and it was the happiest day of my life.

[Bruce Riedel]

It started with over 2,800 dogs, over 200 breeds from 49 states and 16 countries. Down to seven group winners, only one will be named the best in Show.

[Gia Tolentino]

It was like a Disney cartoon fever dream of perfect animals. Like these cute faces like floating everywhere. And they were. And they just all let me pet them and it was great. After the event, I came back home, all the way back to Brooklyn, opened the door and there waiting for me was my dog, Luna. So Luna's sort of my life partner. I work at home, so I spend my whole day with her. I spent at least double the amount of time with her that I have with my actual human partner of eight years. Luna is a 90 pound border collie Great Pyrenees mix. We think she is big, white and fluffy. She has a little black Zorro mask on her face and freckles on her nose. And my friend Sam says that she looks like a human in a dog suit. Well, so now that she's lying down, like, this is, this is what she's like for me through my whole workday. Like whenever I'm stressed for writing, I just hug her for like, like five minutes at a time. She's like a life sized stuffed animal. Lune, excuse you. At the same time that Luna is the best thing about my life, she's also objectively A really bad dog. Here she is meeting my producer, Alex for the first time.

[Alex Barron]

She just instantly started biting my hand.

[David Remnick]

As soon as we got in here.

[Gia Tolentino]

Luna, you're bad. She scares half the people that come to our house for house parties. She's eaten a beer pong ball. She once ate a battery while I was at south by Southwest. She literally is never quiet. She loves to eat garbage. She got USUD for $100,000 cause she tripped a lady out of Connecticut muffin. Luckily our renters insurance covered it. She's a bad dog. So I came home from Westminster last year, you know, and I smelled like all these good dogs. And Luna got kind of mad at me and was headbutting me and, you know, just showing me all of her behavioral problems at once. And I, you know, I joke all the time that Luna's a bad dog. Like, my boyfriend and I are always like, oh, yeah, Luna, terrible dog, terrible dog we've got. But then I looked at her and I realized that this creature that I spend all my time with, one of the most important relationships of my life, is actually with a bad dog. So I wanted to go back to Westminster to see, you know, what it's like to have one of these good dogs, what it's like to have one of these perfect dogs in your house all the time. I wanted to know if they ever got in trouble, if they were ever bad. Like Luna's bad. And what could I have done to make Luna a better dog? So when I went back to the dog show this year, it was the day of the agility competition, which is just a big ring full of dogs running like 20 obstacles, really fast. Dog is flying. Dog is flying.

[Alex Barron]

Yes.

[Gia Tolentino]

That'S a really good dog. The other thing that was going on that day was this event called Meet the Breeds, which was extremely overwhelming. This is. This is madness. So Meet the Breeds took place in this big hangar sized warehouse space. It sort of was like a convention center or a trade show where there was just nothing in the room but dogs. So the wildest thing about Meet the Breeds is that you just walk up to these dogs and pet them. And so all of these people, just this Coachella sized crowd, crowd of people is just walking through the room and petting every dog they see. There's a. There's a. Oh, my God, the corgis. You gotta go to the corgi. We gotta go see the corgis. Don't you think we should see the corgis? Is this your dog?

[Alex Barron]

This is my dog.

[Gia Tolentino]

What's what's your dog's name?

[Alex Barron]

This is Katie.

[Gia Tolentino]

Katie. Is Katie a really good dog?

[Alex Barron]

Oh, she is. The sweetest of the sweetest.

[Gia Tolentino]

Has Katie ever gotten herself into, like, has she ever.

[Alex Barron]

And, oh, yeah, she jumps on the dining table.

[Gia Tolentino]

Even the best corgis in America jump on the dining table.

[Alex Barron]

Yeah. Unless she is, of course, told not to. Dogs in general, they're all good dogs. There are no bad dogs. There are only bad owners who don't.

[Gia Tolentino]

Teach them they have a kind of bad dog. But I think it's my fault. Yeah.

[Alex Barron]

If the dog is doing some bad things, that means it's not trained properly and it's totally your fault.

[Gia Tolentino]

So I went and found the Great Pyrenees booth because I think Luna is half Great Pyrenees. And I met this woman named Karen who was standing behind these two enormous white dogs. I have some questions about. What's your dog's name? Alicia Keys and Batman. Alicia Keys and Batman. Oh, my God. Karen told me that she used to have this dog named Devin. Like this perfect champion, multiple award winning Great Pyrenees show dog. And even Devin wasn't perfect all the time. One thing about Devin too, you know, he loved the hotel rooms. Loved him. So he'd see me, like, start walking him to the van. He'd throw himself on the ground and he'd lay there like, come on, Jan. Embarrassing me in the hotel parking lot. Peers are really. They're headstrong, right? Yes, my dog is very headstrong. What's your advice for, like, do you just have to be really disciplined? Patient, consistency. Andrew's right. My boyfriend is much more disciplined with our dog and she responds better to him. They know who they can take advantage of, I guess. I'm learning so much about my life talking to people. Oh, they're so good. Yeah. There really is the kind of. Everyone's talking about how the key is just like a, you know, constant discipline, which never been my strong suit. Oh, my God. Oh, my God. I would love to come on into the cuddle carpet. So in the middle of walking around, meet the breeds, this woman, this fairy godmother of dogs, just makes a beeline for me and says, would you like to come sit on the cuddle carpet? Like, words I've been waiting to hear my entire life. And I turn around and I was like, yes. And we go over. She leads me over to this display of Leon Burgers and a carpet full of these dogs that are like these big brown bears with happy faces and giant paws. And she just plops me down in the middle of them. Next to this giant dog who's wearing a little bib handkerchief around his neck that says Burton. Oh, really?

[Alex Barron]

Burton is 8 and a half years old and 153 pounds old.

[Gia Tolentino]

You majestic creature.

[Alex Barron]

I love you. Selfies.

[Gia Tolentino]

Oh, yeah, he's great at selfies.

[Alex Barron]

It's one of his commands. He just got his AKC trick dog novice. One of his tricks was doing a selfie with someone.

[Gia Tolentino]

Oh, my God. And so when did you know that Burton was, like, a really good dog?

[Alex Barron]

The day we got him. He is a. He is a show dog. That is a re. Home rescue.

[Gia Tolentino]

Oh, wow.

[Alex Barron]

He came to us at 16 months old from Canada. They went, well, he was going to be a show dog because he was the pick of our litter. How would you feel about showing him? And I said, oh, how hard could that be? Two years later, we went to Westminster.

[Gia Tolentino]

So Burton is that special.

[Alex Barron]

Yeah, yeah. We are also a therapy dog team. Like, Burton actually works in Boston in one of the major hospitals, and his specialties are ICU inpatient psych and cardiac monitoring. And Burton specialty is he likes to hold paws with people who are having bad days.

[Gia Tolentino]

Oh, my. He likes to hold paws with people that have bad days. Oh, my God. I never want to leave.

[Alex Barron]

And you can hold Paul's.

[Gia Tolentino]

So I'd been walking around Westminster, you know, thinking, oh, even the perfect dogs aren't totally perfect. And then I met Burton, who is like, I mean, you cannot imagine a better dog. He, you know, came from Canada at 16 months and took this woman who told me she'd never had a dog before to Westminster in two years. Burton is the best imaginable dog. He's perfect.

[Alex Barron]

I want to show you something that we show when we work in group therapy. Hey, Burton, can you over listen to his heartbeat?

[Gia Tolentino]

I can put my head on him.

[Alex Barron]

But if you put your head right here, you can hear his heartbeat. Otherwise, I feel sorry for the mom.

[Gia Tolentino]

Oh, my God. Oh, no, no.

[Alex Barron]

We make it ourselves.

[Gia Tolentino]

Oh, my God. That's so crazy. So as we were leaving, we were talking about, are there any of these dogs that we thought, these hundreds of dogs that we had seen that day that I would rather have than Luna? And, you know, of course, I immediately thought about Burton, the actual perfect dog. But then if I had Burton, I wouldn't have Luna. It made me think of this conversation that Alex, my producer, and I had had while we were out walking Luna. She has this, like, look of, like, you know, like, I've got my own thing going right now, and you can't tell me what that thing is. And I really, I like that kind of no one can tell you what to do.

[Alex Barron]

Do you feel that that's a quality that you also have?

[Gia Tolentino]

Yes. Yes, that is a quality that I have myself. Oh, no. Do Luna and I have the same problems? Maybe we do. I think this whole experience might have brought me around to the realization that I don't love Luna in spite of her problems, which are my fault, probably, but because of them, the ways in which she's bad, you know, she's like, mischievous and talkative and unbiddable and, you know, full of often bad surprises are things that I share. And it feels like we're equals in a way which is not how you're supposed to be with your dog. And maybe part of that is that we're working through the same things. Westminster is this once a year event in which, you know, all of these dog people and dogs and judges get together and figure out who the most perfect dog of the year is. But outside the realm of competition, whatever makes a good dog good. Whatever makes a bad dog bad. It's as individual as the way we think of our own, I think our own friendships and our own relationships with the people we love.

[David Remnick]

Staff writer Gia Tolentino and Luna. I'm David Remnick and thanks so much for joining us. I hope you'll join us next time.

The New Yorker Radio Hour is a co production of WNYC Studios and the New Yorker. Our theme music was composed and performed by Meryl Garbus of Tune Yards, with additional music by Alexis Cuadrado. This episode was produced by Alex Barron, Emily Bottin, Ave Carrillo, Rhiannon Corby Kalalea, Karen Frillman, David Krasnow, Sarah Nix, Mytha Lee Rao and Steven Valentino, with help from Terence Bernardo, Jamie York, Johnny Vincevans, Emily Mann and Jessica Henderson. The New Yorker Radio Hour is supported in part by the Tsarina Endowment Fund.