The Bipartisan Effort to Rein in Presidential Military Power

The New Yorker Radio Hour | April 25, 2023
Hosted by David Remnick

Episode Overview

This episode of The New Yorker Radio Hour explores the evolving debate over presidential war powers in the United States, focusing on growing bipartisan efforts to repeal the Authorizations for Use of Military Force (AUMF) passed after 9/11 and before the Iraq War. David Remnick interviews Representative Barbara Lee, the sole "no" vote against the 2001 AUMF, as well as Senators Tim Kaine (D-VA) and Todd Young (R-IN), who are leading efforts to repeal outdated war authorizations. The conversation probes the cost of unchecked presidential war powers, the legacy of post-9/11 military action, and the current political climate around congressional oversight of war and peace.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

The Origins and Impact of the AUMF

• Context of the 2001 AUMF:
  • Passed days after 9/11—"just three days after 9/11, on a day when the nation was mourning the victims"—the 2001 AUMF granted sweeping authority to the president to use military force against those responsible for the attacks and to prevent future acts of terrorism (00:33).
  • The language was broad, effectively allowing the President to engage militarily globally without returning to Congress for explicit approval.
• Barbara Lee’s Lone Opposition:
  • Lee describes a deeply personal and emotional decision, connecting her experience in the Capitol during 9/11 and the death of her chief of staff’s cousin on Flight 93 (01:45–03:09).
  • She critiques the AUMF as "a blank check to give over congressional authority to any president to wage war" (02:37).
  • Lee’s famous House floor speech called for restraint: "Some of us must urge the use of restraint. Some of us must say, let's pause, just for a minute and think through the implications of our actions today so that this does not spiral out of control" (03:39).

The Legacy and Consequences of Expansive War Powers

• AUMF’s Enduring Reach:
  • The 2001 and 2002 AUMFs underpinned wars in Afghanistan and Iraq, and have been invoked for military actions worldwide (05:42).
  • Lee outlines tragic outcomes: thousands of dead and wounded Americans, hundreds of thousands of Iraqi deaths and refugees, over a trillion dollars spent, and the rise of groups like ISIS (04:55).
• Changing Attitudes:
  • David Remnick notes the "mood in the country has changed tremendously" after two decades of war (05:42).

The Case for Repeal: Senators Kaine and Young

• Learning from History & the Human Cost:

  • Tim Kaine: "If you can't learn some lessons after 20 years of war, shame on you" (06:43).
    • Emphasizes the burden of repeated deployments and long-term impacts on veterans and families: "What's your test case for what that means in the afterlife of somebody who served?" (07:05)
  • On Iraq: Kaine sees a measure of progress: "A nation that was an enemy is now a partner... repealing the Iraq AUMF... sends a message the US doesn't have permanent enemies" (07:51).
  • Acknowledging Tragedy: "4,500 American troops were killed. Tens of thousands of Americans were injured. Hundreds of thousands of Iraqis were killed. That's what haunts me about this." (08:45)

• Bipartisan Leadership & Military Perspective:

  • Todd Young (R-IN): His perspective was shaped by his own military service, where he realized military and political leaders are "fallible like anyone else" (10:08).
    • He admits, "We'd made a mistake and it cost so many lives, it cost us treasure. And we just can't afford... to make another mistake like this" (10:55).

• Risks of Leaving AUMF in Place:

  • Both senators argue that AUMFs still on the books could be misused by future presidents to justify new wars: "These are authorizations still on the book that could conceivably be used by a future commander in chief to re engage us in various areas around the world. We just can't allow that to stand." – Todd Young (09:34)
  • Kaine elaborates that keeping such war authorizations targeted at Iraq is "offensive, frankly insulting and dangerous" given the current US-Iraq relationship (09:22).

Political Obstacles and Partisan Dynamics

• Why Some Republicans Object:
  • Young explains: "The stated objective from some of my colleagues... is that this could... create an impression that the United States is withdrawing from the region... We think... by repealing the 2002 AUMF, we send a message of solidarity with the people of Iraq and their government" (12:09–13:11).

Ukraine and Contemporary War Powers Debate

• Does Ukraine Influence the AUMF Debate?
  • Kaine: Bipartisan congressional support for Ukraine remains strong, with objections centered around fiscal responsibility and oversight, not core US interest (14:12).
  • The Senate kept Ukraine separate from the AUMF repeal debate: "They offered amendments... about Iran or Iran-backed militias. But the members of the Senate kind of kept Ukraine separate from this and they understood that it is separate" (15:22–16:10).

The Durability of Bipartisanship

• Would Politics Shift Under Trump?
  • Young: "Let's remember that President Trump campaigned on trying to end the forever wars... we did not become embroiled in military conflicts abroad. So this is consistent with the spirit of President Trump's stated foreign policy" (16:28).
  • He believes the votes wouldn’t change markedly if Trump were in office, citing broad-based support for repeal (16:56).

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Barbara Lee:

  • On her decision: "We had to respond appropriately. But this authorization... was a blank check to give over congressional authority to any president to wage war." (02:37)
  • House floor speech (03:39): "Some of us must urge the use of restraint. Some of us must say, let's step back for a moment... so that this does not spiral out of control."

• Tim Kaine:

  • "If you can't learn some lessons after 20 years of war, shame on you." (06:43)
  • On changing relations: "The US doesn't have permanent enemies. The US is always going to try to figure out a way to turn an enemy into a partner." (07:58)

• Todd Young:

  • "It became clear to me... that we'd made a mistake and it cost so many lives, it cost us treasure. And we just can't afford... to make another mistake like this." (10:55)
  • On potential risks: "These are authorizations still on the book that could conceivably be used by a future commander in chief to re engage us in various areas around the world. We just can't allow that to stand." (09:34)

Timestamps for Key Segments

• 00:33 – Explanation of the AUMF's scope and historical context
• 01:45-03:39 – Barbara Lee discusses her personal experience during 9/11 and her "no" vote
• 04:55 – Lee details the consequences of post-9/11 military actions
• 06:43 – Tim Kaine on lessons learned from 20 years of war
• 07:51-09:22 – Kaine on the transformation of US-Iraq relations and why the AUMF is outdated
• 09:34-10:55 – Todd Young reflects on the dangers of keeping war authorizations active
• 12:09-13:11 – Young explains Republican hesitation to AUMF repeal
• 14:12-16:10 – Kaine on Ukraine’s role in congressional war debates
• 16:28 – Young comments on the consistency of repeal support across administrations

Conclusion

This episode provides a nuanced look at America’s ongoing struggle to balance executive power and congressional oversight in matters of war. Through firsthand accounts from leaders who were present at critical moments of decision and those now attempting to correct historical overreach, the conversation underscores the continuing relevance of constitutional war powers—and the enduring costs of neglecting them. The bipartisan effort, as described, signals a potential recalibration of American military engagement and democratic accountability.

Note: The final segments of the episode honor the late New Yorker cartoonist Ed Koren and do not pertain to the main discussion about war authorizations. Those seeking insight into the future of US military powers and congressional oversight will find the core conversation between 00:33 and 17:23.