The Government Took Her Son. Will It Give Him Back?

Summary

The New Yorker Radio Hour: “The Government Took Her Son. Will It Give Him Back?”

Date: June 22, 2018
Host: David Remnick
Featured Guests: Jonathan Blitzer, Anna Schectman, Cameron Austin Collins

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Episode Overview

This episode centers on the trauma and bureaucracy surrounding the Trump administration’s “zero tolerance” immigration policy, specifically the practice of forcibly separating children from their parents at the US-Mexico border. Jonathan Blitzer, reporting from El Paso, Texas, shares the moving and disturbing story of Ana Maritza Rivera, a Honduran woman separated from her five-year-old son, Jairo. The episode then shifts to a lighter segment exploring the art and politics of crossword construction, featuring New Yorker puzzle constructors Anna Schectman and Cameron Austin Collins.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. The Human Toll of Family Separation

(00:33–11:49)

Reporting from El Paso

• Jonathan Blitzer describes his experience just outside an ICE facility, speaking with Ana Maritza Rivera, who faces imminent deportation to Honduras and separation from her son Jairo (01:12–01:55).

• Incident of Family Separation:

  • Rivera and her son crossed the border at midnight on May 5 as part of a group from Honduras.
  • Captured quickly by Border Patrol, Rivera was held in a cell with other women and children.
  • On the second day, two Border Patrol agents forcibly took her son away — Rivera vividly recalls her child’s arms clinging to her as he was taken.
  • Quote (Jonathan Blitzer, 05:32):
    “She starts to scream and cry and claw at them... The two border patrol agents managed to wrest him from her. She resisted, she was extremely upset, crying, yelling, asking what was going on.”

• Disconnected Bureaucracy:

  • Rivera was transferred between criminal and immigration custody; it took two weeks before she learned where her son was.
  • A fellow detainee gave her a phone number for a case manager in Chicago, the first official contact about her son’s whereabouts.
  • Blitzer recounts Rivera’s phone calls with her son:
    Quote (Jonathan Blitzer, 06:59):
    “When he talks on the phone, he sounds sad. He begs me to come pick him up. He says, mom, mom, take me home. I want to go home. I don't like this. And all she can say is, be patient. Be patient. We're almost there. We're almost there.”

Context and Systemic Problems

• Trump’s Executive Order:

  • Stopped new separations but did not address the fate of 2,000+ separated children already in custody (01:41–01:55).

• Legal and Bureaucratic Split:

  • The legal proceedings for parents and their separated children run entirely separately.
  • The Office of Refugee Resettlement typically handles unaccompanied minors, but under “zero tolerance” now must process children forcibly separated after crossing with parents (07:25–10:12).
  • Quote (Jonathan Blitzer, 09:38):
    “There is no alignment between the two ... that's how you're getting parents in immigration detention who don't know where their child is.”

• Data and Accountability:

  • Official government numbers on affected families are unreliable; the true scope is unclear, and leaders often deny the existence of a formal separation policy.

Emotional Fallout

• Ana Maritza’s Resolve:
  • Unlike most detained migrants, she wants to be deported as quickly as possible to reunite with her son (10:24–11:49).
  • Quote (Jonathan Blitzer, 11:23):
    “I told this ICE official that if I get to the airport and my son is not there, you’ll be killing me.”

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2. The Art, Language, and Subtle Politics of Crossword Puzzles

(12:54–21:49)

Inside the Constructor’s Studio

• Constructors’ Process:
  • Anna Schectman and Cameron Austin Collins discuss their method for crafting puzzles, from selecting “seed” words (13:33) to building clues that are both visually and culturally engaging.
  • Quote (Cameron Austin Collins, 13:33):
    “I start by consulting a list of words called my seeds… I just like grids that are aesthetically pleasing and unique.”

Diversity and Representation

• Challenging Tradition:

  • Cameron wants to see representation beyond the token black celebrities usually included for their helpful letter combinations, and both constructors try to include more contemporary, diverse, and political references.
  • Quote (Cameron Austin Collins, 18:07):
    “I want to see more black people. I want to see black people who aren’t Jay Z or Nas... I just felt there were a lot of missed opportunities for kinds of culture that could be in the puzzle.”

• Proud Inclusivity:

  • Cameron notes putting “Anita Hill” in the New York Times crossword for the first time (18:32–18:41).
  • Anna shares her own milestone—slipping the word “schtup” into a puzzle (18:50–18:55).

The New Yorker Puzzle Identity

• Freshness and Topicality:
  • The New Yorker’s puzzles can reflect more current events and linguistic trends than other publications.
  • Quote (Cameron Austin Collins, 19:19):
    “The distance between when we make the puzzle and when the puzzle runs is very, very short... you can be very up with things that are immediately happening in the culture.”

Collaboration and Solver Experience

• Clue Chemistry:

  • The group riffs on creative clueing (e.g., “Grande dame of pop music” for ARIANA, leveraging the “Grande” pun, 14:22–14:57).
  • They discuss the joys and awkwardness of seeing strangers solving their puzzles in public.
  • Quote (Anna Schectman, 20:30):
    “There’s truly nothing like seeing someone do your puzzle well. They’re getting in your brain with you. It’s really creepy.”

• Ethics of “Cheating”:

  • They agree that looking up answers while solving—“cheating”—is really just learning (21:12–21:16).
  • Quote (Anna Schectman, 21:12):
    “It’s not cheating. It’s learning.”

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Memorable Quotes and Moments

• “I told this ICE official that if I get to the airport and my son is not there, you’ll be killing me.”
  — Ana Maritza Rivera (as relayed by Jonathan Blitzer, 11:23)

• “She starts to scream and cry and claw at them ... her kid’s arms kind of clinging to her and pulling at her.”
  — Jonathan Blitzer recounting Rivera’s ordeal, (05:32)

• “I want to see more black people. I want to see black people who aren’t Jay Z or Nas, who are common in puzzles because of the letter.”
  — Cameron Austin Collins (18:07)

• “It’s not cheating. It’s learning.”
  — Anna Schectman (21:12)

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Important Segment Timestamps

| Segment | Time | |---------------------------------------------|------------| | Introduction/zero tolerance context | 00:33–01:41| | Ana Maritza Rivera’s story | 01:55–07:15| | Policy, process, numbers, and confusion | 07:15–11:49| | Crossword constructors, puzzle process | 12:54–20:17| | INCLUSIVE/representative cluing | 18:05–19:38| | Cheating vs. learning in crossword solving | 21:09–21:49|

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Summary

This episode of The New Yorker Radio Hour offers a sobering look at the personal devastation caused by the US government’s family separation policy, highlighted through Ana Maritza Rivera’s harrowing story. Reporter Jonathan Blitzer details the confusion, grief, and bureaucratic obstacles that compound the pain for thousands of parents and children. In contrast, the latter half provides respite in the world of crossword puzzles, where Anna Schectman and Cameron Austin Collins bring wit, diversity, and intellectual playfulness to a New Yorker tradition.

This episode is essential listening for anyone interested in the human impact of immigration policy as well as those who appreciate the cultural narratives woven—word by word—into the crosswords we solve.

Transcript

[David Remnick]

This is World Trade center bound.

[Jonathan Blitzer]

One World Observatory, straight up the block.

[Cameron Austin Collins]

For West Boulevard and make that right.

[David Remnick]

They didn't break that, but they have pretty good access to those people.

[Cameron Austin Collins]

Subconsciously mocks that lineage.

[David Remnick]

So that's happening.

[Cameron Austin Collins]

It seems like an incredible story here on many fronts.

[New Yorker Radio Hour Announcer]

From one World Trade center in Manhattan, this is the New Yorker Radio Hour, a co production of WNYC studios and the New Yorker.

[David Remnick]

Welcome to the New Yorker Radio Hour. I'm David Remnick. In the past week, an avalanche of stories about Donald Trump's zero tolerance policy at the border and its appalling consequences for the children taken from their parents finally caused the president to modify that policy with an executive order. Among the reporters doing that critical work was the New Yorker's Jonathan Blitzer, who's been reporting in El Paso, Texas.

[Jonathan Blitzer]

I am in a parking lot across the street from the ICE processing center. I'm just standing outside in the heat, outside my car.

[David Remnick]

John had just walked out of an ICE facility. He wasn't allowed to call from inside, but he had gotten permission to interview a woman named Ana Maritza Rivera, who was being held there.

[Jonathan Blitzer]

She is being processed to be deported. She's being, she's in the deportation process and it's now just a matter of days before she is put on a plane and flown home to Honduras. And so she's waiting, she's waiting to see if she can get reunited with her five year old son.

[David Remnick]

Trump's executive order on Wednesday stopped the forcible separation of children, but it did nothing to address the more than 2,000 children who are already in federal detention. Rivera's son Jairo is just one of them.

[Jonathan Blitzer]

So Anna Marietz and her son crossed the US Mexico border or attempted to cross the US Mexico border on midnight on May 5th. She was a part of a big group of Hondurans who were attempting the trip from Ciudad Juarez. They attempted to go under one of the international bridges and then from there sort of scurry over a bit of wire fencing. And they did not get far before they were surrounded by Border Patrol agents and all of them arrested. And the Border Patrol agents then took them to El Paso to begin their criminal charging and their deportation process. And so Anna Maritza described being in a pretty big cell with about 25 other women and their children. The men from the group were in a separate cell with the kids that they came with. And the first night she's with her kid and she's kind of waiting to see what happens. And then the second day in the afternoon, two border patrol agents enter the cell and these two agents just start to try to remove her son, her five year old son from her. And she starts to scream and cry and claw at them, her kids. She described specifically the feeling of her kids arms kind of clinging to her and pulling at her. And the two border patrol agents managed to wrest him from her. She resisted, she was extremely upset, crying, yelling, asking what was going on. I asked her if the other women in the cell were shouting or trying to do something. I think all of them were just so shocked. And what she explained to me was that her son was the first from this group to be taken from a mother. And so I think in some ways what may have happened was that they didn't even really understand Anna Marica or any of the other women really understood what was going on. And that was mostly what she described. It wasn't her grief, her grief sort of manifested itself in an odd way. It wasn't as kind of stormy and obvious as you'd expect. It was just, she just seemed dazed, she almost seemed out of it as she tried to describe what this stuff was. And I think she was very confused in the moment about what was happening. And then sure enough, it became clear to her over the next few days that she and her son were going different ways because from then on they took her to, in front of a judge to charge her with illegal entry. And from there she was transferred to U.S. marshal custody. From there she was eventually transferred back to immigration detention and it was about two weeks before she even learned where her son was. And the way she found out wasn't because anyone took her aside and explained to her what was going on, but it was because she was now back in immigration detention and she was just kept entirely to herself, was crying, wasn't eating. And another woman, a Guatemalan woman who had a one and a half year old son who had also been separated from her, recognized that Anna Mariza was in distress, walked up to her and said, you should try calling this number. I couldn't find my kid and this number is for a case manager who was in charge of my kid while we were separated and all. The number is, it's the name of a woman and it's phone number in the US corresponds to Chicago. And Anna Marica at the time didn't even have money, didn't have money on a phone card to call from inside the ICE detention center. So this woman gave her, let her use her, basically her phone card and just through sheer good luck When Anna Marita called this number, the person who answered in Chicago, case manager at a facility run by the Office of Refugee Resettlement, which is in charge of handling these kids who've been separated from their parents, picks up and is thrilled to hear that it's Anna Maritza. Because this woman, in fact, was at a loss as to what to do because they couldn't figure out who this child's mother was. And then this past weekend, Anna Maritza learned that her son had been transferred to a facility just outside of El Paso. And so that seems to bode well in that at least he's closer. She still can't see him. She now has a number for another case manager who deals with her son every day. And she said to me at one point, you know, she said, I can't. When he talks on the phone, he sounds sad. He begs me to come pick him up. He says, mom, mom, take me home. I want to go home. I don't like this. And all she can say is, be patient. Be patient. We're almost there. We're almost there.

[David Remnick]

Up until last week, even as outrage was growing, zero tolerance was being defended by the administration as merely a matter of law enforcement.

[Jonathan Blitzer]

The argument the government gave was, these people are entering the country illegally because they're not entering the country through an official port of entry, where Customs and Border Protection have kind of a hub. And that's a pretty dubious claim to start with, because people who are seeking asylum don't only have to go through a port of entry to seek asylum. They can cross the border and say, I'd like asylum, and they should be given a chance to make their case. But the argument made by the administration and by Jeff Sessions, the Attorney General, was that amounts to loophole that has to be closed. People are gaming the system. We have to arrest any. Anyone who crosses the border illegally. And so there's this immediate moment of rupture when a parent and a kid cross together. Under zero tolerance, the parent goes first into the custody of U.S. marshal and eventually appears before a judge. The judge charges the parent. That parent then goes back to the custody of the Department of Homeland Security, Immigration detention. The parent's child, in the meantime, goes down an entirely different route. The parent's child goes into the care of the Department of Health and Human Services and more specifically, an office inside the Department of Health and Human Services called the Office of Refugee Resettlement. Typically, the Office of Refugee Resettlement handles child migrants who come to the US Seeking asylum alone, without their parents, and. And so the entire legal process for handling that child is entirely independent of the legal process that takes place for the parent. And there is no alignment between the two. And so that's how you're getting parents in immigration detention who don't know where their child is. They then have to, through their own force of will and through the aid of advocates and lawyers, start to piece together where their child is. And this was formally announced last month. But the actual policy itself dates to the summer of 2017, and it's been going on since then in more limited fashion along different patches of the border. And it's hard to know the full scope of it. The only numbers we have are from the Department of Homeland Security. The Department of Homeland Security says that it's been over 2,000 cases over the last two months. And yet, at the same time, the head of the Department of Homeland Security, Kirstjen Nielsen, has also said that there is no policy for separating families. So it doesn't leave you with much confidence that the government's numbers are accurate or representative.

[David Remnick]

As John and many other reporters have found, the bureaucratic chaos has left people like Ana Marica with essentially no help at all from the government to navigate the system and find their children.

[Jonathan Blitzer]

At a certain point in our conversation, she stopped and she looked at me and she said, this isn't going to hurt my case, is it? And typically when I'm asked that by someone in some state of immigration detention, it's because they don't want something from an interview to come out and hurt their case for staying in the U.S. anna Maritza's concern was exactly the opposite. She said to me, I want to be deported as soon as possible. She really thinks that the faster she can get out of here, the sooner she can be with her son. The hardest part for us, I think the hardest part for me in this conversation is what she said. She said, I told this ICE official that if I get to the airport and my son is not there, you'll be killing me. And that's as far as she seemed even able to contemplate the prospect. She then said, I will not board that plane. I will not get on that plane. I will not go anywhere. My son is not there. So it was. It was. It was. It was a very difficult conversation to have.

[David Remnick]

Jonathan Blitzer speaking last week from outside an immigration detention facility in El Paso. We'll update you on Ana Maritza Rivera and her son when we learn more. You can find John's reporting from [e-mail]. now, in Mexico, policies like child separation at the border have fueled a surge of anti US sentiment that may change the course of politics and history in that country. On our podcast, Politics and More, John Lee Anderson talks about the upstart leftist candidate who is likely to take the reins from Mexico's ruling party, the pri. That's politics and more from the New Yorker. You're listening to the New Yorker Radio Hour. Stick around.

[Anna Schectman]

There's so much jargon here I need to explain to you. I'm gonna slow down.

[David Remnick]

I'm David Remnick, and you're listening to the New Yorker Radio Hour.

[Anna Schectman]

So the puzzles progress in difficulty.

[David Remnick]

If you're a crossword nut, you might recognize the names Anna Schectman and Cameron Austin Collins. They are puzzle constructors who have contributed to the New York Times. I can get through Monday and then by Tuesday. I decide through pure sanctimony that this is a worthless pursuit simply because it's beating me into the.

[Anna Schectman]

This is what you have to. Yeah, you turn on the puzzle.

[Jonathan Blitzer]

That's what you do.

[David Remnick]

Now, Cameron and Anna are part of a team of five people doing puzzles for the New Yorker. We just started publishing a weekly crossword a few months ago, and I wanted to figure out how they even begin to build a puzzle.

[Cameron Austin Collins]

I start by consulting a list of words called my seeds. Phrases or words that I just think are really interesting that I really want to see in a crossword puzzle. And let's say I want to use the word fashionista. I'm a very visual person in my grids. I just like grids that are aesthetically pleasing and unique. So I find a way to build something beautiful before I worry about any of the other words.

[David Remnick]

How do we collaborate on clue making? Let's do this.

[Cameron Austin Collins]

Okay. I have examples.

[David Remnick]

Ah, look at this. Literally under your hat.

[Cameron Austin Collins]

Yeah, I really had to. Cause clues are hard to remember, honestly. You've done the New Yorker puzzles or you haven't? Like, this would be one from.

[David Remnick]

Let's just say tears were rolling down my cheeks at a certain point.

[Anna Schectman]

This one I like because it gets at that sort of intersection of the material quality of language and the sort of social quality. Right. So it's grande dame of pop music.

[David Remnick]

Grande dame of pop music. How many letters? You're counting with your fingers now think sex. Think sex. Madonna or grand dame Queen Bay?

[Anna Schectman]

No, no.

[Cameron Austin Collins]

But I love. I love. I love what you're thinking.

[Anna Schectman]

Yeah, it's a great seed.

[Cameron Austin Collins]

Absolutely.

[Anna Schectman]

The answer is Ariana.

[David Remnick]

Oh, okay.

[Anna Schectman]

Because grande. It's a Visual play.

[Cameron Austin Collins]

That's a very good clue.

[David Remnick]

Got it.

[Cameron Austin Collins]

That's a very good clue.

[David Remnick]

Wow. All right, let's make some. Can we do that? Sure.

[Anna Schectman]

I mean, we could clue for Queen Bey.

[Jonathan Blitzer]

Yeah.

[Cameron Austin Collins]

That's a tough one.

[Anna Schectman]

That's a tough one. I don't know exactly how I'd start.

[Cameron Austin Collins]

It's a proper noun, and it's a nickname. The most proper Beyonce is famous enough that you could be clever in the clue.

[Anna Schectman]

Somehow we'd have to make reference to the fact that it's a nickname. We couldn't. Because you wouldn't want someone to think that Beyonce was the answer. Right. That would.

[Cameron Austin Collins]

Right.

[Anna Schectman]

Or, you know, Mrs. Carter. There's just a lot of different possibilities.

[David Remnick]

She's rarely referred to. Well, the new album in the new album. There you go.

[Anna Schectman]

Look at this. I know.

[Cameron Austin Collins]

He's as up as we are. This is.

[David Remnick]

Cake break. You guys are so. You know, it's just. It's ageist of you, is what it is.

[Anna Schectman]

First of all, another great entry.

[Cameron Austin Collins]

Ageism. Ageism.

[David Remnick]

Mrs. Carter's handle. No, nobody would know, miss. That sounds, like, dull.

[Cameron Austin Collins]

Well, here's the thing. Queen Bey is a play on. I mean, beehive. So hive should be in the clue.

[David Remnick]

Right? Oh, my God. You're looking at me like I'm gonna.

[Jonathan Blitzer]

Come up pretty quick.

[Cameron Austin Collins]

Well, I'm curious to see where your mind goes. But it's basically, you look at the qualities of the word and you say, what are the things that are fairest? Royal title.

[David Remnick]

Let's do it. Do an easy one first.

[Anna Schectman]

Okay. Well, this is one of my favorites. Cause it's actually quite simple. So how would you clue the word joy?

[David Remnick]

How would I clue the word joy? Ode to. But that's a.

[Anna Schectman]

That's a Monday.

[Cameron Austin Collins]

But that's a Monday clue. That's a great Monday clue.

[David Remnick]

Unbelievably condescending. That's a Monday clue, Dave.

[Cameron Austin Collins]

That's a great Monday clue.

[David Remnick]

I sit in the corner and have a cook. That's a Monday clue.

[Anna Schectman]

Can I just interject briefly? What is amazing about this conversation is that you're actually trying to create some sort of rubric of what is a good word.

[Cameron Austin Collins]

Yeah.

[Anna Schectman]

Right.

[Cameron Austin Collins]

Yeah.

[Anna Schectman]

That's just an amazing project to me as a.

[Cameron Austin Collins]

This is why we're the literary nerds.

[Anna Schectman]

It's like, what is the standard here?

[David Remnick]

And that is your, by the way, other work.

[Anna Schectman]

Yes.

[David Remnick]

You're an editor and a writer, and you're a film critic.

[Anna Schectman]

We also both are.

[Cameron Austin Collins]

We're somewhere in the realm of the PhD and I'm in English.

[Anna Schectman]

English and Film and Media studies. Yeah, we're both. We're busy.

[David Remnick]

I see. And you're doing the puzzle for us.

[Anna Schectman]

Yeah.

[Cameron Austin Collins]

Right.

[David Remnick]

Instead of doing puzzles, then to relax, you're doing them to heighten your workload.

[Cameron Austin Collins]

You know why I'm doing it? I'm doing it because I was solving the New York Times crossword for a little while. It was mostly something that my mom did growing up, and I thought it was always too stodgy. But when I started doing them. This is in graduate school, when I was craving something else to do, I just kept doing the puzzle and not seeing. I just felt there were a lot of missed opportunities for kinds of culture that could be in the puzzle. I want to see more bands that I like. I want to see more.

[David Remnick]

You want the puzzle to say something?

[Cameron Austin Collins]

Yeah, I want to see more black people. I want to see black people who aren't Jay Z or Nas, who are common in puzzles because of the letter.

[David Remnick]

Because of the Z or an Nas. Yeah.

[Anna Schectman]

Consonants together is right.

[David Remnick]

So how have you accomplished that? Give me an example of puzzle clues that you've done that have diversified the world in some small way or said something political or said something interesting that you had a little tinge of pride in.

[Cameron Austin Collins]

Yeah, well, my debut puzzle for the New York Times, I published Anita Hill. I was the first person to put her in the New York Times crossword. Which is late.

[David Remnick]

That's very late. Cause you're a young guy, and Anita Hill's been around for a long time.

[Cameron Austin Collins]

Yes, indeed. Gaberhood was something that I put in the puzzle. I put fanfiction in the puzzle.

[Anna Schectman]

I put schtup in a puzzle.

[Cameron Austin Collins]

Whoa, whoa.

[David Remnick]

Shtup was in a schtup.

[Anna Schectman]

Yeah.

[David Remnick]

Y.

[Cameron Austin Collins]

This is one of the best days of my crossword life.

[David Remnick]

So a Yiddishism for the sexual act, or one of them is in one of your.

[Anna Schectman]

Yes, in the New York Times. Yeah. Well, okay.

[David Remnick]

That's a proud moment of a kind. Now, what identity are you trying to create for the New Yorker puzzle as opposed to all the puzzles that you've seen elsewhere?

[Cameron Austin Collins]

I think the thing about the New Yorker puzzle is that the distance between when we make the puzzle and when the puzzle runs is very, very short. So that means you can be very up with things that are immediately happening in the culture.

[David Remnick]

So for us, it takes how long?

[Cameron Austin Collins]

A month? A little over a month.

[David Remnick]

Yeah. That's nothing.

[Anna Schectman]

Exactly.

[Cameron Austin Collins]

That's nothing.

[Anna Schectman]

Although when it comes to usage, it might be. I mean, I remember one time when I Was working at the Times. We had a submission that had amazeballs as the one across. And I remember thinking, God, I hope this isn't uncommon usage when this runs. I hope this is done. I hope we're not using these amazeballs.

[David Remnick]

Had a very brief vote.

[Cameron Austin Collins]

Yeah. But that's one of the hard but interesting things, is like to try to put your finger on the thing that's not going to go out of favor in a couple of years or even a year, because also just you're kind of giving it that sort of cultural significance. I prefer to put things in there that are gonna be around a little while.

[David Remnick]

What is the ultimate compliment that you can get for a puzzle that you do?

[Anna Schectman]

I think that any type of aha. That you get in whatever form that it comes across to you is the most gratifying.

[Cameron Austin Collins]

On the subway or in a coffee shop. There's truly nothing like seeing someone do your puzzle well.

[Anna Schectman]

They're getting in your brain with you. It's really creepy.

[Cameron Austin Collins]

It's very strange to be on the subway and see someone on their phone.

[David Remnick]

So it's like seeing somebody reading your piece on the subway.

[Cameron Austin Collins]

Yeah, but like wrestling with your piece. Like trying to solve your piece.

[Anna Schectman]

Anticipating with your piece.

[Cameron Austin Collins]

Yeah. In a conversation with you that they don't realize that you're there watching them have with you.

[Anna Schectman]

Yeah.

[Cameron Austin Collins]

It's very strange.

[Anna Schectman]

I mean, it's like as if there were. As if the comment section were actually gratifying. Right. As opposed to what it usually is.

[David Remnick]

Now, this is a crucial question.

[Cameron Austin Collins]

Yes.

[David Remnick]

When you think of your people doing this, your solvers.

[Anna Schectman]

Yes.

[David Remnick]

Are they cheating like crazy? Do they have their phones out?

[Anna Schectman]

Okay. I feel strongly about this. It's not cheating. It's learning.

[Cameron Austin Collins]

Oh, my God. I agree.

[Anna Schectman]

I don't know.

[David Remnick]

I don't know. That's the most millennial thing you've said in your life.

[Anna Schectman]

For sure. For sure. No, I just really believe that crosswords have been formative for me educationally. So why would I.

[David Remnick]

So what you're admitting on the air. Oh, that I cheat like crazy?

[Anna Schectman]

Yes.

[David Remnick]

Do you cheat?

[Cameron Austin Collins]

I don't cheat, but I approve of cheating.

[David Remnick]

I'm trying to figure that answer out. Well, I thank you both for coming here and for doing the puzzle for the New Yorker. It's a proud addition, and I'm delighted to have you here.

[Anna Schectman]

Thank you so much.

[Cameron Austin Collins]

Really, this was fun.

[David Remnick]

That was Cameron Austin Collins and Anna Schectman, two of the puzzle constructors who make crosswords for the New Yorker. You can find a new puzzle every [e-mail] don't say I didn't warn you, because I have not finished one yet. I'm David Remnick and that's it for this week. I hope you'll join us next time, and until then, keep up with us on Twitter at New Yorker Radio the.

[New Yorker Radio Hour Announcer]

New Yorker Radio Hour is a co production of WNYC Studios and the New Yorker. Our theme music was composed by Meryl Garbus of Tune Yards, with additional music by Alexis Quadrado. This episode was produced by Alex Barron, Emily Bottin, Ave Carrillo, Rhiannon Corby, Jill Deboff, Karen Frillman, David Krasnow, Louis Mitchell, Sarah, Sarah Nix, Mythely Rao, and Stephen Valentino, with help from Susan Morrison, Emma Allen, Michelle Moses, Emily Mann, and Jessica Henderson. The New Yorker Radio Hour is supported in part by the Cherina Endowment Fund.