The Green Rush

Summary

Podcast Summary: The New Yorker Radio Hour – "The Green Rush"

Date: September 20, 2019
Host: David Remnick
Produced by: WNYC Studios and The New Yorker

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Overview

"The Green Rush" explores the seismic shift in American life brought on by marijuana legalization. Through reportage from Vermont to Brooklyn to Oakland, host David Remnick and contributors examine the rapid political and cultural normalization of cannabis, its uneven economic impact, and the lingering societal damage of the drug war—especially in communities of color. Interviews with policy experts, growers, entrepreneurs, and New Yorker staffers paint a nuanced picture of the “green rush”—its possibilities, pitfalls, and future.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Rapid Shift Toward Legalization

(00:12–02:09)

• Marijuana legalization has become a major part of American life, supported by 60% of adults and now a key issue in political races.
• Bruce Barcott (author, "Weed the People") credits the shift to the AIDS crisis in 1980s San Francisco, where cannabis helped alleviate symptoms among patients. The city and then California pioneered medical marijuana legalization, acting as a proof-of-concept for the rest of the country.
• The pivotal moment for recreational legalization came with voter initiatives in Colorado and Washington in 2012.

  “Thirty years ago, there's no way I would have believed this would change.” — Bruce Barcott (02:09)

2. Cannabis and the 2020 Election

(03:15–05:12)

• Marijuana reform is now part of the national political agenda. Nearly all Democratic frontrunners endorse it, except Joe Biden who remains cautious due to his history with the 1990s crime bill and concerns about public health.
• Racial disparities and over-incarceration due to drug enforcement are central to the political conversation, with Michelle Alexander’s "The New Jim Crow" described as a catalyst for broader awareness.

3. Republican Engagement and Corporate Interest

(05:12–06:13)

• Republicans, previously the party of prohibition, are now represented by figures like John Boehner entering the cannabis business post-politics, reflecting the industry’s profit potential.

  “Once they're out of office, all of a sudden they're running to join the new legal cannabis industry.” — Bruce Barcott (05:43)

4. Successes and Challenges: State Rollouts

(07:09–10:56)

• Some states (Washington, Colorado) succeeded, but “stars in its eyes” California struggled due to entrenched illegal markets and regulatory hurdles, ending up with less tax revenue than expected.
• Newer state models, like Illinois, are noted for their comprehensiveness, including expungement of past convictions and protections for parental rights.
• Large investors and companies (beer distributors like Constellation Brands) are entering quietly, pointing to an eventual global industry, particularly as countries like Canada, Germany, and Mexico advance in legalization.

  “Ultimately this will be a global industry…right now we’re still in a phase where in the United States it is very much a state by state industry.” — Bruce Barcott (10:14)

5. Public Health and Remaining Concerns

(11:21–13:59)

• Fears about increased public health harms have not been borne out; no state has reversed course after legalizing.
• The correlation between cannabis usage and schizophrenia is examined: risks are primarily among those with a family history, cannabis may hasten onset but is not confirmed as a cause.

6. The Legal/Illegal Paradox and Banking (Federal Law)

(13:59–15:47)

• Cannabis remains federally illegal, creating confusion, especially in banking. Cannabis businesses can rarely get bank accounts or loans, making independent wealth or investors a practical necessity.

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7. Vermont’s DIY Cannabis Economy

Reporter: Sue Halpern
(15:52–25:20)

• Vermont’s unique system permits home growing (two mature, four immature plants per adult) but bans commercial sales. This has led to DIY experimentation and a gifting economy.
• Lieutenant Governor David Zuckerman, also a hemp farmer, explains the fine line between hemp (legal, low-THC) and marijuana (illegal if THC exceeds the threshold), and advocates for legal dispensaries to boost tourism and tax revenue.
• Homegrown Vermont Professionals founder Jeff Bugay uses the “gifting” loophole to provide plants when consulting, highlighting regulatory contradictions.

  “It's ridiculous to think that you can possess it, you can use it, you can carry it, you can grow it, but you can't buy it or sell it in any way, shape or form. And that's where I come in with the free gifts.” — Jeff Bugay (22:32)

• The gifting loophole is widely (and sometimes creatively) exploited: buy a wooden rose, get a bag of weed free, etc.

Memorable Vermont Vignettes

• Vermonters treat surplus homegrown weed like extra zucchini—giving it away liberally.
• Halpern’s friend and innkeeper Sherry Brown incorporates cannabis into blueberry muffins for guests (24:54).

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8. The Illegal Market, Racial Enforcement, and Social Equity

Reporters: Jelani Cobb (Brooklyn & Oakland), with "El" (NYC entrepreneur)
(25:53–39:48)

• Even in places where legalization hasn't arrived, like New York, the underground market is flourishing and evolving—selling gourmet edibles and topicals.
• Racial disparities in policing persist: today, Black New Yorkers are eight times more likely to be arrested for marijuana than whites, up from five times twenty years ago, despite equal usage rates.

  “If you go to, like, a small suburban town and a white teenager is found smoking weed, they'll be brought home… You catch a 13, 14 year old [Black kid] out here smoking weed, their life can change.” — "El" (29:39)

The Push for Social Equity

• Legalization must include expungement of records and release of incarcerated nonviolent offenders.
• Entrepreneurs of color, like El, feel pressure to build their businesses in the grey market to compete with corporations poised for legalization.

  “While we're waiting, huge corporations are getting their stuff in order, putting all their eggs in a basket…If we don't have that same freedom, how does it feel?” — "El" (30:44)

Equity Programs: Case Study in Oakland

• Oakland’s program reserves half of cannabis business permits for those with drug convictions, with Tucky Blunt’s story highlighted as a rare success.
• He became the first formerly incarcerated person in Oakland to legally run a dispensary, a result of both luck and specific equity initiatives.

  “For me to be able to sell cannabis legally in the city I grew up in and went to jail for selling it illegally is just a rite of passage I didn't know was coming.” — Tucky Blunt (35:15)

• Obstacles remain: lack of education, funding, and real estate barriers. Permits are valuable—licenses offered millions for quick sales, but cash windfalls don’t guarantee generational change.
• Cobb: “Remedies need to be as extensive as the problem itself.” Solutions must go beyond licenses to include funding, technical support, and reinvestment in affected communities.

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9. Cannabis and Culture: Stoner Stereotypes and Real-Life Enjoyment

With Gia Tolentino, New Yorker staff writer
(41:29–48:30)

• Tolentino describes the evolution of cannabis culture—from stereotypical male “stoner” media to more energetic, adventurous, female-centered representations (like “Broad City”).

  “What I like to do when I get high is go do stuff…to be outside in the world and have fun and mostly be normal.” — Gia Tolentino (42:19)

• She discusses favorite things to do while high (watch “Blue Planet II,” listen to music like Vampire Weekend and Tame Impala) and sometimes writing while stoned to help focus or relax.
• Tolentino is forthright about her privilege as a white woman who can talk openly about marijuana without fear of criminal repercussions, unlike many people of color.
• She supports legalization but acknowledges challenges in the transition period with unregulated products (“where it gets dangerous”), advocating for a fully legal, regulated industry.

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Notable Quotes & Timestamps

• “Marijuana legalization…is not red, it's not blue. This is an issue that it doesn't divide down party lines…but Democrats see it as a way to essentially embrace younger folks...” — Bruce Barcott (03:44)
• “Nobody gives a shit about whether you like or don't like pot. This is not about you. This is about hundreds of thousands of people, mostly people of color, being thrown into jail for something that's really less harmful than alcohol.” — ACLU lawyer (06:44, cited by Barcott)
• “Fewer people are making fortunes than you might think, actually, at this point.” — Bruce Barcott on cannabis economics (09:35)
• “The fact that there are pools of salt water at the bottom of the saltwater ocean, that really blew your mind.” — Gia Tolentino (44:06)
• “What seems clear is that the remedies need to be as extensive as the problem itself.” — Jelani Cobb (38:22)

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Important Segments (Timestamps)

• 00:12–13:59: The national evolution of marijuana legalization, public opinion, and political landscape (Barcott interview)
• 15:52–25:20: Vermont's DIY, home-grown cannabis model and its quirks (Halpern segment)
• 25:53–39:48: Racial disparities, social equity, and the business of weed in New York and Oakland (Cobb reporting)
• 41:29–48:30: Cannabis in culture—shifting stoner stereotypes, personal rituals, and privilege (Tolentino conversation)

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Memorable Moments

• Halpern’s quirky observation: “It was just like zucchini. I love that. I can see it just landing on my front doorstep. Couldn't you?” (24:32)
• The gifting loophole shenanigans: “You buy a wooden rose and you get a bag of weed free…buy a 12 pack of cookies and you get a bag of weed free.” — Jeff Bugay (23:15)

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Tone & Language

The episode skillfully balances investigative journalism, local color, policy analysis, and candid, personal storytelling. The tone is reflective and skeptical, but also warm, curious, sometimes wry, and utterly attuned to the profound changes reshaping life and law around cannabis.

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Recommended for:
Anyone seeking an accessible yet in-depth exploration of marijuana legalization in America—its legal, economic, social, and cultural dimensions, with an ear for both expert analysis and the voices of those living through the “green rush.”

Transcript

[A]

From One World Trade center in Manhattan, this is the New Yorker Radio Hour, a co production of the New Yorker and WNYC studios.

[B]

Welcome to the New Yorker Radio Hour. I'm David Remnick.

[C]

Look at this little tent. It's like, for baby growers, for propagation, for the seedlings.

[D]

Yeah.

[C]

And then there's, like, a lot of paraphernalia.

[B]

It's a Tuesday morning in the summer in Vermont, and our contributor Sue Halpern is checking out supplies at the gardening shop Green State Gardener.

[C]

So show us around. I know that there's a lot of fertilizer. I'm looking at something called the magic bubble washing machine.

[A]

It's not really for washing clothing.

[B]

No, that's how it's marketed.

[C]

Oh.

[D]

Oh, wow.

[C]

Okay. What is it for? That is for essentially knocking the trichomes off of the flowers in order to make hash. Okay. I don't even know what any of that means.

[B]

Vermont is one of 11 states where it's legal to get high, and 33 states allow medical marijuana. Nationally, 60% of Americans now support legalization, and the pace of change on this issue is incredible. So this week, my colleagues and I want to dig in and understand the ramifications of this sea change in American life. Sue Halpern will show us how Vermont's unique DIY approach to pot works. And I'll talk with Jelani Cobb about how the legalization movement is trying to undo decades of damage that the War on Drugs has done to communities of color. To explain how this movement accelerated so quickly, I wanted to start with Bruce Barkhot. His book Weed the People. That's Weed the People is about how the state of Washington and Colorado first legalized recreational use. I think you have to say that 30 years ago, if you had told me that we'd see the day when marijuana was legal and maybe on the way toward national legalization, I wouldn't have believed it. How did public opinion change so quickly on this?

[D]

I have to agree with you. Thirty years ago, there's no way I would have believed this would change. I think that it changed gradually. I think the modern era really began with the AIDS crisis in San Francisco in the 1980s, when gay men were suffering from wasting disease, one of the manifestations of aids. They couldn't eat. They couldn't keep food down, and cannabis stimulates appetite. You know, you get the munchies and it quells nausea. So people there started up marijuana buyers clubs, and eventually San Francisco passed legalization for medical use in 96. California passed medical use statewide, and other States followed suit. And then I think, you know, what that medical legalization did was kind of enact a kind of pilot project where different states stuck a toe in the water and the walls of civilization didn't crumble. And then that led to the first adult use legalization votes in 2012 in Colorado and Washington. And I, too, was skeptical about it, but it actually, it worked in my own state, in my own community.

[B]

Hmm. For the first time in history, cannabis reform is gonna be an issue in the 2020 election. Nearly all the Democratic frontrunners support legalization. How did this become such a big deal in the race? And why is it such a big deal?

[D]

I'm kind of shocked, actually, at how many Democratic candidates have essentially just turned and embraced legalization. The only person who really has res is Joe Biden.

[B]

Right.

[D]

And in the previous election, the only person who was for legalization was Bernie Sanders. And essentially it is in the numbers. You know, every poll that comes out now about adult use legalization hits 65%, 68% support. And it's support that's not red, it's not blue. It's across the board. This is an issue that it doesn't divide down party lines, but Democrats see it as a way to essentially embrace younger folks because the breakdown in support is very much generational. The oldest demographic does not like it, is not in favor of it. The youngest demographic is absolutely in favor of it.

[B]

Well, Bernie Sanders, though, has young supporters, but he's not a young guy neither. And Elizabeth Warren isn't either. What does it say about Biden that he's not supporting legalization?

[D]

The thing about, I mean, Biden was notoriously one of the people who was pushing the crime bill back in the 90s. You know, the other element that's come into play with this is our over incarceration crisis and our growing national awareness of racial disparities in law enforcement. And really, there is one book that is like the silent spring of this movement and of cannabis legalization, and it's Michelle Alexander's the New Jim Crow that really opened up a lot of people's eyes. And I wish, frankly, Joe Biden would read it.

[B]

Now, what about the Republicans? John Boehner, the former speaker John Boehner is on the board of one of the country's largest cannabis corporations. Why is this stop being an issue for the Republicans?

[D]

It's the weirdest thing. I mean, Jeff Sessions was sort of the last of the great drug warriors, and even members of his party sort of were baffled by why he rode that Hobby horse of marijuana prohibition so hard. It was like an obsession with him, you know, and his successor really doesn't give a darn about cannabis. So, yeah, I don't know, it's. We've seen this with a number of politicians where once they're out of office, all of a sudden they're running to join the new legal cannabis industry. John Boehner was sort the leader in that sense. But I think you'll see a lot more of those folks coming into this industry because it is booming now.

[B]

You were living in Seattle when the state of Washington voted to legalize marijuana, but you originally weren't in support of it. What ended up changing your mind on this?

[D]

I was. You know, it was back in November 2012, and it was a dinner with friends. We were all discussing who we were gonna vote for, and we were going down the ballot, and marijuana legalization was on our ballot in Washington state. And I said, look, you know, I'm kind of on the fence leaning no on this. I don't like pot. It's not my thing. I worry about my kids. And a good friend of mine actually was a lawyer at the time for the aclu, and the ACLU was behind the effort in Washington state. She said. She turned on me and she practically poked me in the chest. She said, you know what? Nobody gives a shit about whether you like or don't like pot. This is not about you. This is about hundreds of thousands of people, mostly people of color, being thrown into jail for something that's really less harmful than alcohol.

[B]

You saw Washington legalize marijuana, and 11 states have now done the same. They've joined Washington, which states have done this really well. And have any states done it poorly?

[D]

Yeah, I think that Washington and Colorado did it well under the circumstances. They were first. They were the pioneers, and so their laws were not perfect. I think the better laws that are coming on now, there's a lot of eyes on Illinois. The law in Illinois is like 615 pages long. It's insane, but there are a lot of provisions written into that law that weren't in other states that people are very hopeful about. It deals with things like expungement of past convictions for marijuana. I think it addresses or at least touches on things like workplace discrimination and parental rights so that child Protective services isn't going to come take your kids away if you're using cannabis legally. There are a lot of little micro issues that have emerged since the big issue of simple legalization has come out in 2012.

[B]

What about the business aspect of this. California had stars in its eyes and they had huge problems as it turned out with their rollout. The officials there predicted a billion dollars in tax revenue and they ended up with less than half of that. That what happened?

[D]

Yeah. Part of that is the fact that California's illegal industry is so entrenched and so enormous and gets by not just with feeding its own state. I mean it, it produces seven times as much cannabis as California residents consume. So it's going into the rest of the country. And then the regulations in California were pretty tough and so it made it pretty difficult and very expensive for folks to move from the illegal space into a legal space to get their, get their licenses and get security. And it took a lot of money and investment to do that. And so they've been having a harder time moving people from the illegal market into the legal market.

[B]

Who's going to make a lot of money off of marijuana? Last year I think the marijuana industry was valued at around $10 billion. And the projections are to go much, much, much higher than that in the future. Who are the big players in the industry? Who's making a fortune?

[D]

Fewer people are making fortunes than you might think, actually at this point. I think that as we go along, what we're seeing right now is the larger players coming in are. Our investors are coming in. Large investors are coming in quietly. Beer companies are coming in quietly as well.

[B]

Which ones?

[D]

Constellation Brands, which is the distributor for Corona Beer, they have a significant investment in Canopy Growth, which is the largest Canadian cannabis company.

[B]

Are we going to see multinational marijuana conglomerates?

[D]

Oh yeah, yeah. It's, you know, we've, we're seeing obviously Canada has full federal legalization at this point. Germany has full legal medical marijuana. Mexico is coming online soon. The Mexican Supreme Court has declared that the country's prohibition on cannabis is, cannot stand. And so they're working on establishing a legal system right now. We should see it in the next year or two. So ultimately this will be a global industry. It's just right now we're still in the phase where in the United States it is very much a state by state industry. Those walls are very high, but those walls will come down.

[B]

Now part of what impressed me so much about your book is that it's very shrewd and fair minded. You're covering this as a journalist and you're looking at data, you're talking to both sides and it's clear that you come out on the side of legalization. But what's the most convincing argument that you found against full legalization.

[D]

I don't have one. I mean, honestly, it's the. I think the. Initially, the biggest arguments against it was that it would unleash a flood of real public health issues. That was the main concern. And if that happened, I think we would have seen states draw back. I think we would have seen other states not adopt legal policies. And we really. We haven't seen. There's been no state that's gone back and said, you know, we did this, we tried it, and we don't like it. We're going to withdraw. One of the things that pushed me into the area of saying, yes, this is the right thing to do was that ultimately the data and the science I felt were on the side of legalization, that the folks who were scrambling to stop this movement were picking data, picking studies that were deficient or weren't telling the whole story. And I ultimately did not trust their data. I didn't trust their science, I didn't trust their narrative.

[B]

And that includes the data on the correlation between marijuana usage and schizophrenia. And I hasten to say it's not a causation. A correlation.

[D]

Yeah, that's one of those issues where, as an editor and a science writer, I love that issue because it is so unsettled. I took a plunge into it and spent a whole chapter in my book looking at it. And what I came away with, looking at what little science, what little research does exist, is that if you have a family history of schizophrenia, if you have a family history of mental illness, you should know that. And do not touch cannabis until you're well into your 20s, if you want to. And then the scientists don't think that cannabis causes schizophrenia. The most they can say is that it could hasten the onset. In other words, if you're 18 and you're susceptible to schizophrenia, if you start going in and smoking pot every day, that could hasten the emergence of schizophrenia. And what we do know about schizophrenia is the. The longer it can be delayed, the later that emergence comes, the more likely a person is able to manage it and deal with it. I mean, some sort of connection between schizophrenia and cannabis or the cannabinoid system does exist. But to say there's some sort of tide of psychosis rising, it's just preposterous. It's just not there. Nobody can point to it.

[B]

So we're in this netherland of 11 states having legalized marijuana, but it's still, according to the federal government, illegal. And that's kind of confusing, not just for me, but For a lot of people in the industry, how can this be legal and illegal at the same time? In economic terms, law is confusing.

[D]

Look, there is the law and then there is its enforcement. And those are two very different things. You know, federal leaders like the attorney general and U.S. attorneys set priorities about what laws they'll focus on and enforce. And back in 2012, the Obama administration essentially saw the vote in Colorado and Washington and they said, okay, look, we're gonna let you proceed. We're gonna watch you very carefully and we're gonna let you proceed. See what happens, keep it tight. We don't want to see any leakage. We don't want to see marijuana going, flowing out of these states to other states. We don't want to see kids getting into it. We're going to watch and see, we're going to keep our hands off and we're going to focus on higher priorities. And that has essentially been the detente that we have been working with ever since.

[B]

It's okay.

[D]

The problem really comes with what minor aspects that aren't so minor, like banking.

[B]

Right. The big banks have been pretty reluctant to touch cannabis since it's not legal to the federal government.

[D]

And that means those companies can't open checking accounts. More importantly, they can't get bank loans. There are no lines of credit. So to get in this business and stay in this business and grow, you've got to be independently wealthy or you've got to have a rich uncle or you've got to take on, take on investors. That's the only way to grow.

[B]

Bruce, thank you so much.

[D]

Hey, thanks. Anytime. It's been a pleasure.

[B]

Bruce Barkhot is the author of Weed the People and he's senior editor for the cannabis website called Leafly. This is the New Yorker Radio Hour and we're talking today about the impact of marijuana legalization. And we'll be back in a moment. This is the New Yorker Radio Hour. I'm David Remnick. Most states that have legalized marijuana have decided to regulate it like we do alcohol. You go to a state licensed store, you buy the product, and then you pay the state government some taxes on it. Vermont has taken its own approach and it's a unique one. In that state, it's legal to grow your own, but it's illegal to buy or sell it. So that makes for a pretty unusual economy. The New Yorker, Sue Halpern, who lives in Middlebury, showed us how it all works.

[C]

After legalization. I noticed that almost everybody I know who had a garden of some sort was Trying their hand at growing marijuana. I have a friend who was drying it in his sauna. I have a friend who was growing it among his tomato plants. And everyone seemed to have this surplus. I mean, you had to beat people away for wanting to just show up at your house and give it to you. It's just like. I mean, it was crazy. I decided that I wanted to find out how this was playing out in the state. What road is this? Hines Road, which is very, very. Which is a dirt road, which is. Now we're really in Vermont. We're in. So we're gonna go talk to David Zuckerman, who is a very interesting fellow because he is our lieutenant governor. He is also a farmer. Zuckerman's farm, Full Moon Farm, is in Hinesburg, Vermont, and it's one of the most productive farms in Vermont.

[E]

So this is parsnips. This is about a half an acre of parsnips for winter storage. And actually, you just got a whiff because we're walking towards the cannabis. You can see the cannabis.

[C]

I mean, we're pretty far away from it right now. The way the law reads, any vermonter who's over 21 can grow two mature marijuana plants and four immature plants for their personal use. Zuckerman isn't doing that. Instead, he has a license, a commercial license, to grow hemp. But the thing I learned, and it just kind of surprised me, was that hemp and marijuana are actually the same plant. They're both cannabis. And the only distinction is that hemp has very low levels of thc, which is the compound that gets you high. So it's classified differently under federal law, which is why Instead of having six cannabis plants, David Zuckerman has 500 pretty far away from it.

[F]

It's huge.

[C]

I mean, it looks like a forest.

[E]

Some of them are as much as maybe eight, even nine feet tall. Some of those spikes up over there. And literally two weeks ago, it was almost two feet shorter. And try not to touch the flowers directly too much. You can touch the leaves.

[C]

And when will the hemp come due?

[E]

Well, I'm learning. My understanding is sort of you can harvest it whenever you want. The risk of going too late, you have more risks of molds and diseases. And if you go too long, you also have a risk of growing hot product. On the THC side, what Zuckerman means.

[C]

Is that the bigger his hemp plants get, the more THC they have in them. The more THC they have in them, the more they resemble marijuana plants rather than hemp plants. And if they go over a certain level, then they are marijuana plants. And David Zuckerman suddenly is looking at a large fine and possibly jail time, which is really not a very good look for the Lieutenant Governor. So tell me about cannabis reform. You said that you've been doing this for a very long time. Why aren't we getting the tax revenue that we could get if we had dispensaries?

[E]

Well, that's a great question. For other people. I have advocated for a well regulated dispensary system that would promote small scale agricultural production with a craft product, much like we have in our beer side of things, that would draw tourists who would then stay at our bed and breakfasts, hike in our mountains, all the other great things that people do in Vermont, and really expand our economy, not only just from a tax revenue on cannabis perspective, but boost our tourism revenue, which is really one of the backbones of Vermont's economy.

[D]

Bye, Route 7.

[E]

Okay, so just go that direction and eventually you're going to hit one of them.

[C]

Okay, great. Thank you.

[E]

Thanks. See ya.

[C]

Bye. So we're on our way to Proctor Vermont, and I'm supposed to talk to a guy I found on the Internet named Jeff Bugay.

[G]

I was at Ace Hardware and I came out and somebody was reading my sign on my car and was like, ah, you're the weed guy, huh? I was like, yeah, cannabis. I do hemp also. And he was like, I live right around the corner, can you stop and look at my plants? And I was like, absolutely.

[C]

Jeff runs a company called Homegrown Vermont Professionals, and he drives around the state making house calls for people who want to grow their own marijuana. He's kind of like the weed doctor. What do you do for someone? They call you up and they say, hey, Jeff, I want to grow, but I don't know anything about it. What do you do for that person?

[G]

Okay, well, what I will tell you is literature and what supplies to get, if you're serious. And we would schedule a consultation and I would come to your house and I'll evaluate where you want to set it up. Where is the best place in your house if you only have one spot, then we'll work with that.

[C]

So you can't sell anything that is actually plant material. So where do people, where is people supposed to get the seeds or the plants if they can't buy them?

[G]

I offer two free plants with a home consultation, a one hour consultation. You get two free potted plants to get going, you know, so you don't.

[C]

Need to buy seed because you're giving someone a plants.

[G]

I'm giving them free plants or free seeds or free cuttings. The loophole that they left in the law was it's okay to gift. And for me, it's ridiculous to think that you can possess it, you can use it, you can carry it, you can grow it, but you can't buy it or sell it in any way, shape or form. And that's where I come in with the free gifts.

[C]

There is a gifting loophole in the law, and people have taken a lot of advantage of it. Not long after it became legal, the Vermont Attorney General, TJ Donovan, said he would consider any gift of marijuana that had a financial aspect to it to be illegal. But Jeff says that's not really stopping anybody.

[G]

There's a place around here I saw on Facebook, actually there was two or three that I saw. You buy a wooden rose and you get a bag of weed free. You know, you buy a 12 pack of cookies and you get a bag of weed free. You know, so there's a lot of people doing it and very blatantly doing it. I mean, running ads on Facebook. So. And that's not my game. That's not my bag, if you will.

[C]

Thanks a lot. Our last stop of the day is to visit my old friend and neighbor, Sherry Brown, who I met probably a dozen years ago when our daughters went to school together.

[D]

Good to see you.

[C]

Me too. Are you stoned? I just had to ask. Okay. No, but can we have some of these?

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

Are you hungry? Sherry is the innkeeper at Blueberry Hill, which is maybe the most iconic inn in Vermont. She's also a master gardener. We're looking at Sherry's garden, which has 1, 2, 3, 3, 4, 5. Where's the six? Oh, it's over there. I can't see it.

[D]

Two of them are called wedding cake.

[C]

One is called blue cheese.

[D]

The three little plants that we had.

[C]

Last year produced quite a bit. So that's. I mean, everybody I knew who was growing had so much, and they were just like, take some, have some. And it was just like zucchini. I know. I love that. I can see it just landing on my front doorstep. Couldn't you? Sherry is also a master baker, and before I left, she offered me some blueberry weed muffins.

[A]

We'll see.

[C]

I have these muffins here. I don't really know how effective it'll be, but you can have some and try them. I can't, because I can't eat wheat. Since I can't eat wheat. I couldn't eat the muffins, so I passed them on to my producer, Rhiannon Corby, who agreed with very little persuading to be my proxy. And you're not driving anywhere after I drop you off. It's true. And you can try it and you can report back.

[A]

Okay, we'll do it.

[C]

Let's check in every 15 minutes. So would you recommend one muffin to start with? I would recommend taking two muffins. Do you remember that?

[B]

Sue Helperin reporting from her home state of Vermont. And the muffins I heard were fabulous.

[C]

Did you see all the blueberries? No. I want to look at the blueberries. If I'm going to be addicted to some substance, it's going to be blueberries. Yeah, I'm pretty addicted to blueberries.

[B]

Now. Outside of the blueberry rich state of Vermont, marijuana is a multi billion dollar industry. And that's just the legal side. In states that haven't legalized, the drug trade goes on as it always has. Here in New York, a legalization bill failed recently, but people are still expecting the change to come sooner or later. And so entrepreneurs are racing to get a foothold in the market before legalization. Jelani Cobb, who's a staff writer at the New Yorker, has been looking into this nascent cannabis economy. Who's benefiting and who's.

[F]

Recently, I went to visit a man I'm going to call El. He lives in Brooklyn and he sells some pretty high end items.

[H]

This is spreadable chocolate. So it's like a chocolate version, Nutella, vegan also. These are our skin creams. One is thc, one is cbd. These are THC brownies, lollipops. So this one here is a vegan soursop sorbet. It has 165 milligrams of CBD.

[F]

El makes his own cannabis products, puttering around his kitchen and whipping up these concoctions. He has them on like a display case. Right when you walk in the door is CBD isolate.

[H]

So pure CBD in its purest form.

[F]

He's showing me a jar of what looks like white powder.

[H]

When that, when I get those, I get them delivered because I'm scared to walk around with a white powder.

[B]

Jelani, who are his customers?

[F]

He told me it's a bit of everybody. The neighborhood is racially diverse and like much of Brooklyn, it's changed a bit over the years.

[H]

I feel like when the white presence came into the neighborhood that it made it more acceptable because they're way braver actually smoking outside than any of us would have been in the past. So it kind of normalized it overall, you know.

[F]

Really?

[D]

Yeah.

[F]

Tell me more about that.

[H]

Like, well, I started noticing it in the city. Like, you would. I'd be walking through the city. Like, I worked at a hospital for about 20 years here in the city, and I would be walking to and from work and, you know, getting off the train, I would just smell it in the air, everywhere. And then it became such, like, a normal thing. And then it became to where it's just everywhere you go now. You smell it everywhere, like, all over New York. It's amazing.

[F]

Have you ever gotten into trouble for selling pot?

[H]

I was pulled over about a year ago. The cops said that I had a broken windshield and my tail light was out. So I guess they saw the front and the back of my car at the same time, but they pulled me over. The guy gets out the car, he's walking up to my car and he's going just like this. He's like waving his. Fanning his hand in front of his face. He's like, what are you smoking in there? I'm like, I'm not smoking anything in here, right? He's like, I smell it. You're smoking. I said, sir, I haven't smoked since 12 o' clock this afternoon. Mind you, it's like one o' clock in the morning. I'm just getting out of work and the bar, right? So he was like, you're smoking in here, I'm gonna find it, right? Get out the car, go stand in the back. So there was three officers in the car, three undercover officers. The other two stood there with me while he went through my car. He found a few bags of weed behind my seat. I had some cartridges, some oils in it, and they locked me up for that.

[F]

The officers arrested l and he faced up to nine years in prison.

[B]

Nine years. That's a lot of time.

[F]

Yeah. Al got lucky. He found some good lawyers and pleaded the charges down to a violation. But the police still confiscated all the cash he had on him at the time, which was about $1,500. And here's a fact about New York. Twenty years ago, black people were about five times more likely to be arrested for marijuana than white people. They're now eight times more likely, even.

[B]

Though they use it. Basically the same rates exactly.

[H]

I always used to say, right, that if you go to, like, a small suburban town and a white teenager is found smoking weed, they'll be brought home to their parents, dropped off. I caught him smoking weed I'll have the talk with him. That will be that. You catch a 13, 14 year old out here smoking weed, Right. Their life can change.

[F]

If weed is legalized in New York State. What would you like to see in that legislation?

[H]

First thing I would like to see is that the people, the nonviolent people who are in jail because of it, get released. That would be number one. Before we move forward, we have to get those people out of there, like, get them back to their families, get them back into society to try to get a good footing in life, to be able to maybe be a part of this change, you know? And those people, I cry for them, man. Like, I sit back and I think of just how many people have done.

[F]

So many years, so why risk selling now? Why not just wait until it's legal?

[H]

While we're waiting, huge corporations are getting their stuff in order, putting all their eggs in a basket, you know, working on their packaging, how they're going to come to the market if we don't have that same freedom, how does it feel?

[F]

So Al would likely go to prison if he's caught selling his cannabis, chocolate and sorbet. But on the other hand, he wants to build his business to give himself a chance against big weed once marijuana is legalized in New York.

[B]

Jelani, how did you start exploring this?

[F]

Well, there's an interesting background in that I am in that probably minority demographic of people my age who have no experience with marijuana whatsoever.

[B]

Not one time, not once. It was just a matter of not.

[F]

Inhaling or not even getting into the room to inhale.

[B]

Fair enough.

[F]

But I heard about this issue from my friend Mary Pryor. Mary has Crohn's disease, and she uses cannabis medicinally. And she moved to LA to get better access to it and developed friendships with some other black women who were also interested in cannabis. And right away, she noticed something.

[B]

We already saw that there was a huge gap of black and brown access in LA specifically that we experienced. So even when I would go to dispensaries, I would be like, okay, there's no black budtenders here. And I'm in Inglewood. That's interesting.

[F]

Mary started going to cannabis events, trying to learn more about the business.

[B]

So we would be. Maybe we would be three out of seven black people out of a festival of hundreds. And it was all, like, white people. We were sitting at this table, looking at the room like, wow, they really don't want us in here. So the big issue that Mary is raising here is that people of color suffered from the Criminalization of marijuana for all these years. But now, under legalization or potential legalization, the people who will benefit will be white. Where? That's the fear, right?

[F]

I mean, millions and millions of people have gotten arrested for using this drug, Mostly people of color. And that's why there's a lot of conversation as legalization bills are being passed about social equity.

[B]

Can you define social equity in this context?

[F]

Well, it can mean a lot of things. It can mean releasing people who have low level drug convictions from prison. And in a lot of cases, these bills actually wipe those charges off their records altogether. It can mean using tax revenue to rejuvenate communities that were hit by the war on drugs. And then there's this interesting program in Oakland which was started in 2016. It's called the equity program. One of the beneficiaries of that was a man by the name of Tucky Blunt.

[I]

Everybody I knew growing up pretty much went to jail, you know what I mean, for different, you know, different drug crimes. But most, in most cases, it was weed. For a lot of time, I know people did federal time for growing cannabis. So all over Oakland, it was pretty rampant, People going to jail for cannabis.

[F]

Tuckey grew up in Oakland, and in 2004, he was arrested for $80 worth of marijuana in his pocket. He spent a little time in jail and moved on.

[I]

2017, I received a phone call from a good friend of mine named Michael Marshall, who is the voice of the song. I got five on it. He called me and simply said, hey, fonz, you ever caught a case in Oakland for weed? And I'm like, yeah.

[C]

Why?

[F]

What happened is that Oakland's equity bill said that half of all cannabis business permits had to go to people like him who were personally affected by the war on drugs.

[I]

And he explained to me about the program and some people he knew that were looking for an Oakland resident to help them apply for the. The business license. And I was like, all right, cool. I mean, let me, you know, go talk to them, see what they want from me, and kind of like the rest is history, like, literally.

[F]

So what happened next?

[I]

Mind you, I found out about this in November of 17. We had to turn our application in December of 17, and then we won the lottery. January of 18. So this happened, like, super duper fast. And it was a lottery. You had to pick a bingo ball, throw it in a chamber. They rolled a ball, the chamber around. And if they didn't pick your ball, the last four balls won a dispensary. And that's how we Won.

[F]

And tell me what you did with that license.

[I]

All right, so Blunsemore is the first brick and mortar cannabis store, recreational and medicinal, ever owned and operated by a person formerly incarcerated for cannabis. It's in Oakland, California, directly across the street from the Alameda Oakland Coliseum. I'm from Oakland, born and raised. And for me to be able to sell cannabis legally in the city I grew up in and went to jail for selling it illegally is just a rite of passage that I didn't even know was coming. And it's represented all through Blunts and more. Our staff, just our, our lobby area. It just shows that we are black in cannabis and, you know, we rep it real well.

[B]

So this is a guy who in the end made good.

[F]

Yeah, but he's the only one. Oakland's program was designed to give black and other people of color residents a stake in the market. And that's turned out to be much easier said than done.

[B]

Hmm.

[F]

So what are the obstacles that you and other equity applicants face?

[I]

Honestly and truthfully, I believe it's from lack of funding and lack of education in the sense of we should have got the license and had education right away because that's how quick the vultures was waiting on us. Then you run into funding issues because there was no money available at the time for the applicants. You just had the license, so now you got to go find somewhere to rent. Then you also run into real estate. People gouging normal real estate for commercial space is maybe 75 cent to a dollar in California. But most people, when they find out you're doing cannabis or anything related to cannabis, they're asking for upwards of four to six dollars a square foot. And you have to pay all of this rent, get all your stuff, all of your staff, all of your equipment before you can even get your license. So you're paying all this. Where are you getting this money from if you're poor?

[F]

Did anyone ever try to buy your license from you?

[I]

Oh, yeah.

[F]

Oh, yeah.

[I]

I got offered the most offer. The highest offer I got was about 3 million. And it was from one of the guys who ended up getting somebody else to sell to him, which is okay. You have the right to do that. You know what I mean? But what did you get out of it? You know what I mean? I'm hearing that one of them may have been offered 100,000 and 10 million in future stock options. That's ridiculous. That's ridiculous. That's not going to change your kids life. Your kids kids life. You want to be signed off you should get a good amount of money, you know what I mean? In my opinion, upwards of at least 10 to 15 million, minimum. But everybody doesn't think like me.

[B]

Wow. So a few million dollars did not seem to impress them all that much. These dispensary permits are worth a hell of a lot of money.

[F]

Yeah. Managed correctly, these could be really big business.

[B]

So, Jelana, you've reported on the issue. You're talking to people about the problems. What do you want to see happen? How do we legalize marijuana fairly taking into account the damage that's been done all these many years in the War on Drugs?

[F]

Well, it's complicated. What seems clear is that the remedies need to be as extensive as the problem itself. It's not enough to decriminalize or even legalize cannabis if you don't also void convictions and expunge records. But beyond that, it seems that even granting licenses to people of color who are affected by the war on Drugs will ultimately be more symbolic than effective unless it's also paired with concrete steps and resources to actually get those businesses off the ground. So it's not inconceivable that these cities would also provide seed money. You know, no terrible pun intended. Beyond that, it seems that revenue from the taxes on this product in particular could be directed into other remedial efforts. And, you know, the dispensaries are just one small part in a much bigger production chain. And the people who I've talked to who think about this a lot are really very invested in seeing people of color have positions in equity throughout the entire system. So there are growers, there are marketers, and they want to be in on every level of it. And while there's a lot to be done, it does seem that you can see maybe that there are some steps being taken in the right direction.

[B]

Jelani Kopp, thank you.

[F]

Thank you.

[B]

Staff writer Jelani Cobb. And you can read everything he's written for [e-mail] among the Democratic presidential candidates, Cory Booker has been probably the most assertive about legalizing marijuana, saying we should use that tax revenue to benefit communities that have been harmed by the drug war. I'll talk with Cory Booker about that issue and many others on the New Yorker Radio Hour next week. This week, we're talking about the legalization of marijuana. And I'll be back in a moment with the New Yorker's Gia Tolentino. Stick around. Welcome back. I'm David Remnick, and this is the New Yorker Radio Hour. We've Been talking a lot about the big issues around marijuana legalization, the politics, the economic policy, the public health aspect. A whole lot of serious talk about something that was supposed to be, in the first place, a good time. So I asked Gia Tolentino to stop by my office for a chat. Gia is a staff writer at the New Yorker. She's got a new book out called Trick Mirror, which is a big bestseller. And Gia is, without doubt, one of the more outspoken people I know about her habits. So, Gia, I want to know, and the people absolutely want to know. What's your favorite thing to do or watch or listen to when you're high?

[A]

I don't know how you feel like, I am not. Despite being a sort of career stoner, I don't really like all of the traditional sort of stoner movies. Like, I never got into, like, Fast Times, the Ridgemont High, and Big Lebowski. They seem kind of cheesy, because the thing about weed is it's not cool, you know? So to make a big deal out.

[B]

Of it, when you say it's not cool, meaning as opposed to some other intoxicant or drug or whatever, well, it's kind of cheesy.

[A]

Like, there was something about movies about all these sort of deadbeat men who had, like, their sort of cultural identity was, I smoke weed. And there was something about that that I never really vibed with. When Broad City first came on, it was the first time that women were at the center of the stoner thing. And I appreciate the way that women get high a lot more than the. Or the stereotypical way women get high, more than the stereotypical way that men get high, which is, like, Big Lebowski, male part.

[B]

What's the female part of the situation?

[A]

It's like having this super, super energetic, let's go for a walk. Let's go for an adventure. Let's get into some trouble. Let's be outside in the world and. And have fun and mostly be normal.

[B]

Ah, so it's not eat an entire pizza, then collapse.

[A]

Yeah, it's not this sort of, like, I'm gonna wear my drug rug and, you know, like. Like, sit in the house and talk about weed, you know, with. Like, with. In my experience, like, what I like to do when I get high is go do. Do stuff, Right? There's this really funny episode of Broad City where the two girls, Abby and Alana, they decide to grow up. And for Abby, this means finally buying weed instead of sponging off of her friends. And for Alana, it means doing her taxes herself instead of calling her dad or whatever to get her dad to help her. We got the W2s and the W9s.

[D]

But we're to trying.

[C]

How do we get three through eight?

[A]

Dude, I don't know. You get the things you get.

[D]

You sign them and you send them back.

[A]

She doesn't know and she is mean. I'm sorry that I snapped.

[D]

I'm in a bad mood.

[A]

I'm just. I'm having a really hard time finding weed.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

It's like, yeah, you gotta grow up. Gotta get a weed guy. You gotta do your taxes. You gotta go about your day and have a little fun adulting. Yeah, yeah. Oh, I hate that word, but yes, there it is. It's more fun to sit down and clean your house and listen to a whole record if you're a little stoned and you listen to the music a little more.

[B]

Now, I gather that you're in the number two position that David Attenborough documentaries. You got a favorite?

[A]

Yes. So Blue Planet 2.

[B]

Very good.

[A]

Like, a friend was telling me about this, and he was like, gia, you gotta get high and watch this episode of Blue Planet 2 where there are saltwater lakes at the bottom of the ocean. And I was like, what? You know, like. Like my whole brain was just like.

[B]

You know, cutthroat evil scavengers come to.

[F]

The shores of the Brian Lake in.

[C]

Search of something edible.

[A]

And the fact that there are pools of salt water at the bottom of the saltwater ocean, that really blew your mind. Really blew my mind.

[D]

Spending too long in it can send.

[C]

An eel into toxic shock.

[A]

But the real thing that blew my mind was there's a part of that episode where they have a fish. The. I think what it's called. What's it called? The bobblehead fish. Sorry, I wrote it down, bubble. I just forgot it. This is the downside.

[B]

I basically have you at the New Yorker for another few years, and then.

[A]

And then the brain is just really leaking out the ears.

[B]

She was fantastic. You would. You would remember her.

[A]

Okay. It's called the barreleye fish.

[D]

A fish with a transparent head filled.

[F]

With jelly so that it can look up through its skull.

[D]

Wow.

[B]

So this is the equivalent of a Grateful Dead movie.

[A]

Yeah. I mean, let's go see the Grateful Dead.

[B]

So do you work. Do you ever write high?

[A]

Sometimes.

[B]

And is that. What's the result?

[A]

It's totally.

[B]

Yeah, it's good.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah. I work exactly the same when I'm high as when I. I would never report high, but I do Often so good to know. Actually, that Weinstein piece that I wrote, the one that went really big, like, right after the Weinstein case, I wrote that while I was stoned because I was so stressed out that I couldn't get calm. I couldn't. Like, I was so upset personally. And it calmed me down the way half a glass of wine would. And then I just sat down and was able to write this very emotionally direct thing. And it helped. Like, it. Yeah, sometimes. Also, if I get a note back that's like, can you make this a little funnier?

[B]

Add the funny. Yeah, no, look, I think you're many fans even already know that you're an extremely disciplined writer and reader, and yet you allow yourself to talk publicly about drug use and smoking weed.

[A]

I feel a little guilty about that, though, you know.

[B]

Why? Did your mom get upset?

[A]

No, because I'm conscious of the fact that I, you know, I've been able to smoke weed kind of with enthusiasm in public because I'm this very kind of benign looking young woman, you know, like nobody is gonna. I have pretty much lived knowing that no one's gonna arrest me for walking down the street smelling a little bit like weed if I'm tucking a joint in my pocket and that. I feel a lot of guilt about that. But I also.

[B]

Do you have any hesitation about legalization at all? Do you have any or any hesitation about it whatsoever?

[A]

Yeah, for sure. I mean, I do think that it is possible to have a. You know, I happen to not have a physically addictive tendencies in my constitution, which is really lucky. But I do think that actually where we're at, I mean, you see it with all those people that are getting sick from vaping. It's this transition period. Like weed, if it was fully regulated, it's, you know, such an enormous tax base. And it's also the gray market where. Where there are so many stores in California that are selling legal weed that actually are unlicensed. That's where it gets dangerous. I think that if we fully transition to a legal system, it'll be a lot better than what happens now.

[B]

And what about music?

[A]

Well, music is the best thing. I went to the Vampire Weekend show at MSG on Friday. Lots of, you know, lots of high bros hugging each other. It was really lovely. But I was thinking about when that Tame Impala album, Currents came out in 2015, and I saw them a couple of times at festivals. You know, the classic, like, it's sunset, everyone's high, everyone's having a really good time. And there was this. Paul, halfway through Let It Happen and where it just. The song just starts vamping and it sort of sticks. And I remember listening to it and just like, you know, the sky's pink and, like, all of my friends are around me and we're all super stoned. And it just felt like everything had frozen. Like we were just in this. In this really, really, really good loop for, you know, forever. And I think that's the feeling that being high and listening to a really good song can give you, like, you. It makes so much space within the song and you can hear the math of it and it's just. Yeah, it felt good.

[B]

Hearing the math of it is a great phrase.

[A]

Yeah. You know what I mean? You know what I mean?

[B]

I do. And it's that. Yeah. You know what you mean.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[C]

Let's leave it at that, shall we?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Gia, thanks for coming by.

[A]

Thank you.

[B]

The New Yorker's Gia Tolentino on Broad City, David Attenborough's Blue Planet 2 and the band Tame Impala. Her new book is called Trick Mirror. I'm David Remnick. And that's it for today. I hope you enjoyed the show and I hope you'll join us next week for my conversation with Senator Cory Booker. See you then.

[A]

The New Yorker Radio Hour is a co production of WNYC Studios and the New Yorker. Our theme music was composed and performed by Meryl Garbus of Tune Yards, with additional music by Alexis Cuadrado. This episode was produced by Alex Barrett, Emily Botin, Ave Carillo, Rhiannon Corby, Jill Duboff, Karen Frillman, Kelilea, David Krasnow, Caroline Lester, Louis Mitchell and Stephen Valentina, with help from Meng Fei Chen and Emily Man. The New Yorker Radio Hour is supported in part by the Chorina Endowment Fund.