The New Yorker Celebrates a Hundred Years as a Poetry and Fiction Tastemaker

Summary

The New Yorker Radio Hour: Celebrating a Century of Poetry and Fiction

Episode Title: The New Yorker Celebrates a Hundred Years as a Poetry and Fiction Tastemaker
Host: David Remnick
Guests: Deborah Treisman (Fiction Editor), Kevin Young (Poetry Editor)
Release Date: February 4, 2025

---

1. Introduction to The New Yorker's Centennial

David Remnick opens the episode by highlighting the New Yorker's upcoming centenary in February 2025. He reflects on the magazine’s transformation from its inception as a "comic paper" under founder Harold Ross to a prestigious platform for fiction and poetry, largely due to the pivotal hiring of editor Katherine White.

David Remnick [01:45]:
"When we began, the New Yorker's founding editor, Harold Ross, saw the magazine almost purely as what he called a comic paper. Those first issues were light as air, but once Ross made the crucial hire of Katherine White, an editor who insisted on bringing the best of fiction and poetry to the magazine, things changed..."

2. The Evolution of Fiction and Poetry at The New Yorker

Deborah Treisman and Kevin Young discuss the extensive archive of fiction and poetry published over the past century. Treisman notes that the New Yorker has published close to 14,000 pieces of fiction, while Young estimates around 13,500 poems.

Deborah Treisman [02:22]:
"I mean, the New Yorker has published in its history close to 14,000 pieces of fiction."

Kevin Young [02:28]:
"Kevin, I think you might eclipse us. I think we're 13,500 or something like that."

3. Diversity and Representation in The New Yorker

Young reflects on the lack of diversity in historical publications, citing the absence of poets of color in earlier anthologies. He expresses hope for broader representation in contemporary selections.

Kevin Young [04:12]:
"...I pulled the book off the shelf and saw my underlines and was so excited. And then I realized there's not one person of color in that whole book."

Young further discusses the underrepresentation of various ethnicities and the New Yorker's potential role in fostering inclusivity.

Kevin Young [04:21]:
"It was missing a lot of opportunities for the range of American poetry. And it wasn't just African American poets. It's missing Asian poetry... Why would you send your poem there if it's not welcoming?"

4. Creating the Centenary Anthologies

Treisman and Young have curated two anthologies, "A Century of Fiction at the New Yorker" and "A Century of Poetry at the New Yorker." They aimed to capture stories and poems that resonate beyond their time while acknowledging the magazine's historical context.

Deborah Treisman [07:58]:
"I think the latter, I hope. Yeah, for the most part."

5. Editorial Insights: Selection Processes

The discussion turns to the editorial process behind selecting stories and poems. Treisman explains the volume of submissions and the criteria used to identify standout pieces.

Deborah Treisman [18:12]:
"Probably between 100 and 200 [stories]... there's an unsolicited section of submissions which are read by our wonderful fiction readers who will pass along to the editors anything they think is promising."

Young provides insight into the poetry submission process, highlighting the vast number of poems received annually compared to the select number published.

Kevin Young [18:50]:
"I more know that annually about 48,000 come in. [We publish] about a hundred a year."

6. Notable Stories and Poems

One standout story mentioned is "Cat Person" by Kristen Rupelian, which gained viral attention despite the author's limited prior publications. This underscores the New Yorker's ability to spotlight emerging voices that resonate widely.

Deborah Treisman [20:37]:
"...Cat Person by Kristen Rupenian... she had not published widely at all. She did not have a book out, but it was a story that spoke to people."

Young shares the opening poem of the anthology, "Try to Praise the Mutilated World" by Adam Zagayevsky, emphasizing its significance in the post-September 11 context.

Kevin Young [14:31]:
"This is Try to Praise the Mutilated World by Adam Zagayevsky... It had to start the anthology. There was no way you couldn't sort of frame our current moment and looking back without that iconic issue and this iconic poem."

7. The Changing Face of Humor and Light Verse

The conversation touches on how humor in the New Yorker's past issues may not resonate today. Treisman and Young discuss the evolution of poetic styles, noting shifts in what constitutes effective humor and light verse.

Deborah Treisman [11:30]:
"The thing that seems to date maybe fastest when I look back at old New Yorkers is humor."

Kevin Young [12:00]:
"But some of that is so great. It's so playful with language."

8. The New Anthologies' Structure and Themes

Young explains his unique approach to organizing the poetry anthology, likening it to the progression of a day to create thematic coherence.

Kevin Young [13:29]:
"I said, well, what about if it's like a day? And so it starts with the morning, a morning bell, and then has a lunch break, and then it has an after work drink and goes like that."

9. Reflections on Editorial Challenges and Triumphs

Treisman shares anecdotes about the challenges of fostering new talent while maintaining the magazine's high standards. She highlights the balance between nurturing emerging writers and recognizing established voices.

Deborah Treisman [19:51]:
"Usually between 20 and 25% of stories in a given year are by people who are publishing in the New Yorker for the first time."

10. Conclusion and Celebratory Remarks

Remnick concludes by acknowledging the efforts of Treisman and Young in compiling the centenary anthologies and extends gratitude to contributors like Deborah Garrison. He encourages listeners to engage with the new anthologies and celebrate the New Yorker's rich legacy.

David Remnick [21:06]:
"...A Century of Fiction and A Century of Poetry come out this month and of course, you can always [e-mail]..."

---

Notable Quotes

• Kevin Young [04:57]:
  "I actually, what is interesting to me is I haven't gone through the archive and figured out, is it people didn't send. Because there is a kind of level of, you know, if it's not welcoming, why would you send your poem there?"

• Deborah Treisman [06:25]:
  "...even geniuses don't always write their best work right off the bat."

• Kevin Young [12:18]:
  "I think especially the 20s, a kind of rhyming, clever poem quatrains, no doubt, that comes to a clever conclusion."

---

Key Takeaways

• Historical Significance: The New Yorker has been a cornerstone in American literature, publishing thousands of influential fiction and poetry pieces over a century.

• Diversity and Inclusion: There has been a historical lack of diversity in the magazine's publications, but recent efforts aim to rectify this and broaden representation.

• Editorial Excellence: The rigorous selection process ensures that only the most impactful and resonant stories and poems are featured.

• Evolving Literary Styles: The magazine reflects changing literary tastes and societal norms, adapting its content to stay relevant.

• Legacy and Future: The centenary anthologies celebrate the New Yorker's enduring legacy while paving the way for future literary contributions.

---

This episode of The New Yorker Radio Hour offers a comprehensive look into the magazine’s illustrious history in fiction and poetry, the challenges of maintaining editorial standards, and the ongoing efforts to embrace diversity and contemporary relevance.

Transcript

[W.W. Norton]

WNYC Studios is supported by W.W. norton and Company, publishers of 44 poems on being with each Other. This celebratory anthology is a new volume that offers immersive reflections on the human connection, revealing the ways we relate to each other, the world around us and ourselves. 44 poems On Being with each other features 44 poems curated by Padre Gotuma, the host of On Being's Poetry Unbound podcast, and is available now wherever books are sold.

[Progressive Insurance]

This episode is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. Do you ever find yourself playing the budgeting game? Well, with the name your price tool from Progressive, you can find options that fit your budget and potentially lower your bills. Try [e-mail], progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates. Price and coverage match limited by state law. Not available in all states.

[Kevin Young]

The New Yorker Radio Hour is supported by Dell.

[Progressive Insurance]

Dell Technologies is celebrating with anniversary savings on their most popular tech For a limited time only, save on select next gen PCs like the XPS 16, powered by Intel Core Ultra processors and more. Plus curate your dream setup with great deals on select monitors, mice and more. Must have electronics and accessories. When you shop [e-mail] deals you'll have access to leading edge technology to match your forward thinking spirit and free shipping on everything. Again, that's Dell.com deals listener supported WNYC.

[David Remnick]

Studios.

[The New Yorker]

This is the New Yorker Radio Hour, a co production of WNYC Studios and the New Yorker.

[David Remnick]

This is the New Yorker Radio Hour. I'm David Remnick. In February, just a couple of weeks from now, the New Yorker will mark its centenary 100 years of publishing. And yet when we began, the New Yorker's founding editor, Harold Ross, saw the magazine almost purely as what he called a comic paper. Those first issues were light as air, but once Ross made the crucial hire of Katherine White, an editor who insisted on bringing the best of fiction and poetry to the magazine, things changed, and over a century's worth of issues, we've published an immense body of short fiction and poems.

[Deborah Treisman]

I mean, the New Yorker has published in its history close to 14,000 pieces of fiction.

[David Remnick]

And so you went back and read every single one. And how many poems? Do we have any idea?

[Kevin Young]

Kevin, I think you might eclipse us. I think we're 13,500 or something like that.

[David Remnick]

Deborah Treisman and Kevin Young have just put together two anthologies to celebrate the New Yorker centennial. Deborah has been the magazine's fiction editor and my colleague since 2003, and she's just edited A Century of Fiction at the New Yorker. Kevin joined us as poetry editor in 2017. He's an amazing poet and the director of the Smithsonian's National Museum of African American History and Culture. And in his spare time, he's edited the new book A Century of Poetry at the New Yorker. Kevin, you said that when you were growing up, you bought a copy of the New Yorker Book of Poems anthology, which was published in 1969. What do you remember about reading that book about who was included and maybe at least as much to the point who was not?

[Kevin Young]

Yeah, I remember vividly reading it. And I still have my copy. And it's very neatly underlined in ink, which I wouldn't do now. I think I'm a pencil guy mostly. But, you know, just to see, like James Dicke's Falling, for instance, which is sort of this bravura piece. It's pages and pages. I'm not sure we would even run something as long as that. But to see it, I would hope that we would. Okay, well, you've heard it, folks. You've heard of fol. It was actually kind of surprising when you asked me to do this. I think my first response was, I've only wanted to do this since I was 15. I've been thinking about this idea. And so it was kind of a dream come true. And I pulled the book off the shelf and saw my underlines and was so excited. And then I realized there's not one person of color in that whole book.

[David Remnick]

And then you, who come along so many years later, were only the sixth black poet in our pages, you know, 1999.

[Kevin Young]

That's a long time.

[David Remnick]

What accounts for that?

[Kevin Young]

It was missing a lot of opportunities for the range of American poetry. And it wasn't just African American poets. It's missing Asian poetry. It's missing the long tradition of Asian poetry or African poetry. It doesn't include that in translation. Even an anthology, we have the advantage of looking back and selecting and saying, well, that's obvious, as Deborah's saying, but it isn't always in the process. And I actually, what is interesting to me is I haven't gone through the archive and figured out, is it people didn't send. Because there is a kind of level of, you know, if it's not welcoming, why would you send your poem there?

[David Remnick]

Right. And the poets in the 50s, I think they would have found the New Yorker anathema somehow.

[Kevin Young]

Right, exactly. The New York School often. Until then, Ashbury's in. And then he was in a lot, you know. And so that's what's interesting is it isn't one sort of taste only, but, you know, you have someone like sister Sonia Sanchez, a wonderful poet. She was taught by Louise Bogan, you know, and that connection to the New Yorker was there for her in the beginning. And so in a way, there is this tie, even though it's not shown in the magazine. So I think there's a lot of interesting connections still.

[David Remnick]

I was over at the New York Public Library yesterday, and one of the archivists showed me some correspondence between the fiction department and Jerry Salinger, J.D. salinger. And the first note is a very curt no, thank you. And suddenly it gets a lot warmer. As a fiction editor, even today, do you live in fear of missing a potential genius? When things come in, what are you always thinking?

[Deborah Treisman]

Well, I guess the thing to remember is that even geniuses don't always write their best work right off the bat. You know, people make a lot of noise about rejection letters from the New Yorker that went to famous writers or later famous writers, and they were probably justified, those rejections.

[David Remnick]

And Beatty, 44 rejections before Roger angel took.

[Deborah Treisman]

I think it was only 13, but 44, 32. He wrote her very detailed letters about what he was exasperated with in her work and encouraging her to do something different. But at least he spotted that she had something fresh and interesting and different. And he encouraged that there was a.

[David Remnick]

Period, a long period, where people would refer to the New Yorker story, that there was this thing called the New Yorker short story. What was it and how did that reputation develop, fairly or not?

[Deborah Treisman]

Well, I think generally the cliche is that it's a story about a working man in the suburbs who commutes into the city and cheats on his wife, perhaps, or thinks about it, thinks about it wistfully. You know, it's very much about white, middle class married life and that it ends with an epiphany. You know, like Irwin Shaw's Girls in Their Summer Dresses, which is just a moment of a man, husband and wife, talking in a bar and he's thinking about attractive girls. But it's these things happen. These things happen, right? There are slices of life, not so much narratives.

[David Remnick]

And when you went back and read a whole bunch of these, how did you react to them? Did you admire them more than you thought you would? Were you bored with them?

[Deborah Treisman]

Well, I read them with a different eye because there's so much of their time. And that was also what was interesting in reading for the anthology, was considering whether it was correct to include stories that feel dated now because they are representative of their time. Or whether it would be better to simply include stories that continue to resonate.

[David Remnick]

What choice did you make?

[Deborah Treisman]

I think the latter, I hope. Yeah, for the most part. But you know that it's then you're not representing a large number of works which meant something at the time but mean less now.

[David Remnick]

The New Yorker's fiction editor, Deborah Treisman will continue in a moment. Support for this episode comes from Exile.

[Kevin Young]

A podcast from the Leo Baeck Institute and Antica Productions.

[Progressive Insurance]

The Viennese Julia Child, a rebel theater.

[David Remnick]

Director, a librarian turned spy I'm Mandy Patinkin.

[Progressive Insurance]

Join me on Exile for deep dives into the archives and untold stories of Jewish lives in the shadow of fascism.

[David Remnick]

Find Exile wherever you listen to podcasts.

[Kevin Young]

The New Yorker Radio Hour is supported by Dell.

[Progressive Insurance]

Dell Technologies is celebrating with anniversary savings on their most popular tech for a limited time only, save on select next gen PCs like the XPS 16, powered by Intel Core Ultra processors and more. Plus curate your dream setup with great deals on select monitors, mice and more. Must have electronics and accessories. When you shop [e-mail] deals you'll have access to leading edge technology to match your forward thinking spirit and free shipping on everything. Again, that's Dell.com deals.

[W.W. Norton]

WNYC Studios is supported by W.W. norton & Company, publishers of 44 poems on being with each Other. This celebratory anthology is a new volume that offers immersive reflections on the human connection, revealing the ways we relate to each other, the world around us and ourselves. 44 poems On Being with each other features 44 poems curated by Padre Gotuma, the host of On Being's Poetry Unbound podcast and is available now wherever books are sold. WNYC Studios is supported by Babbel. Are you holding back on foreign travel plans this year because you are afraid of the language gap? Well, no need to mind the gap if you have Babbel this year. Speak like a whole new you with Babel, the language learning app that gets you talking. Babbel's quick 10 minute lessons, handcrafted by over 200 language experts, get you to begin speaking your new language in three weeks or whatever pace you choose. And because conversing is the key to really understanding each other in new languages, Babbel is designed using practical real world conversations. Let's get more of you talking in a new language. Babbel is gifting our listeners 60% off [e-mail] WNYC get up to 60% [e-mail] Wnyc spelled B-A-B-B-E-L.com Wnyc Babbel.com Wnyc rules and restrictions MAY apply.

[David Remnick]

The thing that seems to date maybe fastest when I look back at old New Yorkers is humor. I'll read the supposedly hilarious Alexander Wolcott and I don't know what the hell he's talking about three quarters of the time.

[Deborah Treisman]

I think humor is really. It's time stamped.

[Kevin Young]

I mean, I mostly think that, but I think the really funny, you know, like Dorothy Parker feels very modern and crisp and sometimes what you're encountering, in my opinion, is a generic kind of of the time humor, like, you know, at a smoker, you know, in the 50s that, you know, was a hilarious, you know, golf joke. You know, it doesn't really.

[David Remnick]

Was there an equivalent to a New Yorker po as it was a New Yorker story?

[Kevin Young]

Yeah, I mean, I think especially the 20s, a kind of rhyming, clever poem quatrains, no doubt, that comes to a clever conclusion. Usually the opposite of what you might have thought. So there's a kind of like, I like going out, but I sure like staying home or like, if only. It's just something kind of like that.

[David Remnick]

But also you saw a lot of light verse, Ogden Nash and the like.

[Kevin Young]

But some of that is so great. It's so playful with language.

[David Remnick]

So if you got that today, you thought it was successful in it would.

[Kevin Young]

Go, I would hope.

[David Remnick]

Do people write it?

[Kevin Young]

They don't write it as much.

[David Remnick]

Why?

[Kevin Young]

I think I. Well, I have Auden's view of light verse. He edited an Oxford anthology of light verse. And one of the things he talks about, he includes the blues in there. And one of the things I think is so clever about that is he has this broad view of light verse as a kind of musical. What's interesting about looking back then, like, there's a lot of Harlem Renaissance poets who are very formal and could have easily fit in those pages. And so that's why it's a little surprising.

[David Remnick]

Kevin, you went with a different choice on how you organized this book. Maybe you should explain it.

[Kevin Young]

Yeah, I wanted to kind of give that sense of the time period and move from the 20s. And I kind of grouped these decades together, especially at the beginning. But I thought if you just marched through it, you'd have a lot of pages of things that might not talk to each other in the same way as if you think about Theme. And the other anthologies, the previous New Yorker ones were thematic in different ways or alphabetical. I think the 69 one is crazy by title.

[David Remnick]

You don't know where to navigate this thing.

[Kevin Young]

Right. So instead I said, well, what about if it's like a day? And so it starts with the morning, a morning bell, and then has a lunch break, and then it has an after work drink and goes like that.

[David Remnick]

So you intersperse the time, the progression of the day, and then it's ingenious and it really works. You begin the anthology, Kevin, with a poem by a Polish poet. Tell me the story of this poem, when it appeared, and maybe after you do, maybe you could read it for us.

[Kevin Young]

Yeah. This is Try to Praise the Mutilated World by Adam Zagayevsky. And it appears in the September 17 issue, which, as you know, was the issue right after September 11, 2001, and to be just a week after September 11.

[David Remnick]

It was the issue right after which.

[Kevin Young]

I remember 9, 11.

[David Remnick]

Yeah, with the black cover by Art Spiegelman and Franoise Mouly and long narrative by a lot of reporters about what had happened.

[Kevin Young]

It had to start the anthology. There was no way. You couldn't sort of frame our current moment and looking back without that iconic issue and this iconic poem. So this is Try to Praise the Mutilated World by Adam Zagayevsky. Try to praise the mutilated world. Remember June's long days and wild strawberries, drops of wine, the dew, the nettles that methodically overgrow the abandoned homesteads of exiles. You must praise the mutilated world. You watch the stylish yachts and ships. One of them had a long trip ahead of it while salty oblivion awaited others. You've seen the refugees heading nowhere. You've heard the executioners sing joyfully. You should praise the mutilated world. Remember the moments when we were together in a white room and the curtain fluttered. Return in thought to the concert where music flared. You gathered acorns in the park in autumn and leaves eddied over the earth's scars. Praise the mutilated world. And the gray feather, a thrush lost, and the gentle light that strays and vanishes and returns.

[David Remnick]

I remember it happening. I remember Alice Quinn giving me this thing. And I was like everybody else, a wreck. I had slept in the office half the week and I just was a puddle. I was a puddle when I got this thing and we just put it on the back page, which is not normally where we put poems.

[Kevin Young]

But I'm thinking about this just now because we've had the fires in California and we just ran a fire poem the very week it came in literally the day or a few days after, and we were able to run it. You know, that poem is out in the anthology, but there are a number of poems about COVID and pandemic and what 2020 was like and the murder of George Floyd. I mean, these are things poetry can do, and the magazine can do better than anyone and run a week later.

[David Remnick]

Deborah, how do you see politics filtering or not filtering into the short stories that you read week after week?

[Deborah Treisman]

Well, I was just thinking about 2016, when our slush pile of submissions was full of satires about Trump, and somehow it was just too direct. It wasn't nuanced. They weren't worked as literature. They weren't good writing in that sense. But then there were quite a few stories a little bit of time later that in which the Trump presidency was a backdrop and its effects were playing out in families or in relationships, and that was really effective.

[David Remnick]

Deborah, I want to ask you about your day to day work as fiction editor. How many stories does the New Yorker get a week?

[Deborah Treisman]

Probably between 100 and 200.

[David Remnick]

That's a lot of stories.

[Deborah Treisman]

It is.

[David Remnick]

So how do you. What's the process of selecting the story?

[Deborah Treisman]

Yeah, well, there's myself and three other people in the fiction department, and we're all being sent things, and then there's an unsolicited section of submissions which are read by our wonderful fiction readers who will pass along to the editors anything they think is promising.

[David Remnick]

Just for the record, we're reading everything.

[Deborah Treisman]

We're reading everything.

[David Remnick]

Yeah. And you and the great Hannah Eisenman, who you work with, how many poems come in each week?

[Kevin Young]

I more know that annually about 48,000 come in.

[David Remnick]

Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa.

[Kevin Young]

40.

[Deborah Treisman]

They're shorter than the stories.

[David Remnick]

48,000 poems.

[Kevin Young]

Let's say 40. 40. And we publish about a hundred, 100 a year. Yeah. So we do read them, but it is, you know, a slightly smaller group of people reading. And, you know, we have.

[Deborah Treisman]

They're a lot shorter.

[Kevin Young]

Yeah. But, you know, they'll send five, you know, send just one. So I once talked to Alice Quinn about this years ago when I was just sending to the New Yorker, and she said, I would feel weird if we had less.

[David Remnick]

We have people. In a given year, Jorie Graham is most likely gonna publish a poem, and we could name, I don't know, 20 other or more, as it were, regulars that have been publishing poems in the New Yorker for a while. Same with short story writers. George Saunders arrives with something, or Lorrie Moore or Edwidge Danicat or whatever, but you're always looking for something new. How does this all work?

[Deborah Treisman]

Usually between 20 and 25% of stories in a given year are by people who are publishing in the New Yorker for the first time. So it's quite a high number when you consider that their next story, they're not in that category. I guess the goal is really just thinking about a story's ambition, what it's trying to be, what effect it's trying to have on the reader and taking it, if it's successful at that.

[David Remnick]

Can you remember a time where you've opened an envelope and it's somebody that you hadn't heard of and you just, by the end of, you know, half an hour later, you're singing oh, happy day.

[Deborah Treisman]

Well, can I remember a time when I opened an envelope?

[David Remnick]

Touche.

[Deborah Treisman]

And Fair enough. Or a PDF?

[David Remnick]

Fair enough.

[Deborah Treisman]

Absolutely, I can. Absolutely, yeah. So, you know, one fairly recent case of that is the story that went viral and got the most attention online that any New Yorker story has ever got, which was Cat Person by Kristen Rupenian and hit a nerve. And she had not published widely at all. She did not have a book out, but it was a story that spoke to people.

[David Remnick]

The books are A Century of Fiction and A Century of Of Poetry at the New Yorker, Deborah Treisman, Kevin Young, and I want a little shout out here to Deborah Garrison, who was so wonderful at KNOPF and helping us all out. Thank you so much. Happy anniversary.

[Kevin Young]

Happy anniversary.

[David Remnick]

That's the New Yorker's fiction editor, Deborah Treisman, along with our poetry editor, Kevin Young. A Century of Fiction and A Century of Poetry come out this month and of course, you can always [e-mail] David I'm David Remnick. This is the New Yorker Radio Hour. Thanks for joining us and see you next time.

[The New Yorker]

The New Yorker Radio Hour is a co production of WNYC Studios and the New Yorker. Our theme music was composed and performed by Meryl Garbus of Tune Yards, with additional music by Jared Paul. This episode was produced by Max Balton, Adam Howard, David Krasnow, Jeffrey Masters, Louis Mitchell, Jared Paul and Ursula Sommer, with guidance from Emily Botin and assistance from Michael May, David Gable, Alex Barge, Victor Guan and Alejandra Deckett. The New Yorker Radio Hour is supported in part by the Tsarina Endowment Fund.

[Deborah Treisman]

Here's a way you can support WNYC in our centennial years. Donate your used car. We'll turn your old car into the news and conversation that we've been serving to the community for over 100 years. Many listeners have already donated their cars to WNYC. It's an easy way to support the station, and you'll get a tax deduction. Learn [e-mail] car.

[W.W. Norton]

WNYC Studios is supported by W.W. norton Co. Publishers of 44 poems on being with each Other this celebratory anthology is a new volume that offers immersive reflections on the human connection, revealing the ways we relate to each other, the world around us, and ourselves. 44 poems On Being with each other features 44 poems curated by Padre Gotuma, the host of On Being's Poetry Unbound podcast, and is available now wherever books are sold.