The New Yorker Radio Hour

Episode Summary: "The Two-State Solution, and a Standing Desk Problem"

Date: January 20, 2017
Host: David Remnick (WNYC Studios and The New Yorker)

Overview

This episode of The New Yorker Radio Hour explores three main segments:

1. The viability and future of the two-state solution for Israel and Palestine, featuring perspectives from an Israeli settler-turned-diplomat, a prominent Palestinian pollster, and a liberal Israeli parliamentarian.
2. A cultural review of the rap duo Run the Jewels and their politically charged album, as discussed by New Yorker writer Hua Shu.
3. A humorous essay on the "standing desk" phenomenon by Tom O'Donnell.
4. A literary profile of poet Elizabeth Bishop, including readings and new insights from biographer Megan Marshall.

This summary focuses on the substance and core arguments of the episode’s main topics, with notable moments and quotes identified by timestamp.

Section 1: The Fate of the Two-State Solution

Context and Introduction

David Remnick lays out the pessimistic landscape surrounding Israeli-Palestinian peace prospects after decades of failed peace attempts and shifting US-Israel relations; he notes the entrenchment of the settler movement and skepticism on both sides.

"It seems to me after so many failed attempts at negotiations, so much violence ... that we've reached a point now that's called a frozen conflict." — David Remnick [02:32]

Part A: The Settler-Diplomat Perspective—Danny Dayan

Interviewee: Danny Dayan, Israeli Consul General in New York, former leader in the Israeli settler movement.

• On Settler Motivation:

  • "We thought that the right thing to do is to move to Samaria... because Israelis in that area were suffering the terrorist attacks of the first Intifada... We thought that we have to strengthen Israel's presence there." [05:27–06:11]

• On Palestinian Recognition:

  • "As long as the Palestinians do not recognize the right of Israel to exist, not just its de facto existence, but the right of Israel of a Jewish state in that part of the world to exist, it's inevitable that they will try again and again." [06:40]

• On Political Innovation:

  • "I think that we have to be much more innovative... maybe we'll have to engage, I would say, in political architecture... a solution as peculiar as this conflict is peculiar." [07:40–08:17]
  • When pressed for specifics: "I don't know exactly, but we have to stop... What we need desperately in this conflict is fresh thinking." [08:49–08:58]

• On Settler Fate in a Two-State Solution:

  • Suggests settlers could remain as minorities: "They can stay if they want as residents of the Palestinian state... If Nelson Mandela would have said, I want majority rule in South Africa and to expel all the white residents..." [10:21–10:54]

• Memorable Exchange:

  • Remnick: "I don't see any Mandelas around on the scene."
  • Dayan: "No, but in that. That's exactly what I am saying. On the Israeli side included, I see many Mandelas in Israel. I don't see any Mandela in the Palestinian side." [10:54–11:06]

• On Peace Process Realism:

  • Calls for "peaceful non-reconciliation," or living as normally as possible under abnormal conditions, such as easing Palestinian access to Israeli job markets. [12:13–13:39]

Part B: The Pollster Perspective—Khalil Shikaki

Interviewee: Khalil Shikaki, Palestinian pollster, director of Palestinian Center for Policy and Survey Research

• On Palestinian Mood:

  • "There's no doubt that the mood among the Palestinians is highly pessimistic." [14:03]

• On Settlement Impact:

  • "The perception is that the Israelis, by building settlements, have made the two state solution no longer viable... Having said that, I would still say that I don't think that we've reached a point of no return." [14:33]

• On Palestinian Priorities:

  • "When we ask Palestinians, what is your most fundamental goal? The Palestinian state is selected by almost half of all Palestinians immediately... independence and sovereignty and self-determination is a deeply rooted interest." [15:39–16:25]

• On Support for Solutions:

  • "About half on both sides support a two state solution... About a third of the Palestinians support a one state solution." [16:47–16:59]
  • Defines one-state in South African terms: "Basically equal political and civil rights in one state ... the South African model." [17:04–17:31]

• On the Unviability of One-State:

  • "I tend to agree ... I don't see the one state solution as viable... a lot of Palestinians turn to that out of the conviction that the two state solution is no longer viable." [17:45]

• On "Sliding Toward One State Reality":

  • "We are sliding in that direction and yes, there are elements of that reality on the ground. But I think the point about this one state reality is when do you reach a point of no return? I do not believe we have reached a point of no return." [19:13–19:51]

Part C: The Labor Politician Perspective—Merav Michaeli

Interviewee: Merav Michaeli, Israeli Labor Party member

• On the Two-State Solution’s Viability:

  • "The two state solution is so possible and there are so many partners who can make it possible. Yes, it's going to be much more complicated ... but it doesn't mean that it's impossible." [20:12]

• On Political Will in Israel:

  • "Once we have in the chair of the Prime Minister in Israel political will to act out the two state solution, to make it happen. It can be done." [21:15]

• On Public Will vs. Leadership:

  • Insists majority still supports two states, disagrees it’s a "slight" majority: "Not even so slight, that's what I'd say. It's not even so slight." [21:22–21:26]

• On Israeli Political Weakness:

  • Admits Labor’s weakness: "Unfortunately, you are not very wrong. It's true. It's not only about personalities, it's also about the narrative ... some of our center left leaders have come and said there is no partner. Once they have said it, we lost our narrative." [22:48]

• On Decline of Liberal Zionism:

  • "The short answer is no, not at all. But it's a cultural thing. We think of everything as if it was a Hollywood feature ... even if this act, they have their hand up ... doesn't mean that they're going to win after the subtitles go up." [23:49]

Key Quotes & Memorable Moments

• "Israel can either be Jewish or democratic, it cannot be both, and it won't ever really be at peace." — Recapping John Kerry, David Remnick [03:12]
• "I am quite pessimistic about the date of arrival of the final status agreement." — Danny Dayan [13:30]
• "Despair shouldn't be an option for any of us." — David Remnick [24:33]

Section 2: Culture & Protest—Run the Jewels and Middle-Aged Hip Hop

Main guest: Hua Shu, New Yorker writer and hip-hop aficionado

• Backstory and Chemistry:

  • LP and Killer Mike come from contrasting backgrounds; their connection was catalyzed by Adult Swim. [27:39]
  • "In 2011, 2012 ... they were both a little despondent, a bit bitter about where their careers were, and they came together and the results have been pretty startling." — Hua Shu [27:39]

• On Retrospection in "Down":

  • Sample lyrics from Killer Mike: "I hope, I hope, I hope with the highest of hope that I never have to go back to the trap and my days of dealing with dope..." [28:44]
  • Comment: "Rappers are particularly good at retrospection and sort of narrating, sort of self mythologizing." — Hua Shu [29:35]

• On Middle Age and Rap:

  • "I think hip hop is a young person's game. Even if you're older ... it's difficult to kind of stay relevant. So they've had to find new audiences." — Hua Shu [30:36]

• On Political Activism:

  • "Killer Mike spent a lot of last year stumping for Bernie Sanders." — Hua Shu [32:33]

• Notable moment — Marketing jokes:

  • Comedy about marketing: "Do you ever think about faking your death to sell records?" [31:38]
  • Killer Mike: "I think we could sell more records if we left LP dead. But he's my friend, and I don't want him dead." [32:14]

• On Protest and Relevance:

  • "I think all music is innately political ... But I think this one [album] is [a protest album]. It may not have been recorded that way ... but there's something really powerful about just the unlikeliness of their story, their friendship." — Hua Shu [34:09]

Section 3: Comic Relief—The Standing Desk Problem

Author: Tom O’Donnell
Segment: Satirical monologue on the extremes of standing desk evangelism.

• "Sitting has been called the new smoking. The only difference is that smoking looks cool and is a great way to meet people and isn't actually that bad for you. I smoke. Sitting, on the other hand, looks ridiculous and shameful..." — Tom O’Donnell [35:21]

• "In a few months, I might even switch to a treadmill desk, which is a great way to prepare for a swimming desk. By this time next year, I will be dangling from a ceiling mounted rock climbing desk..." [36:41]

Section 4: Elizabeth Bishop—Life, Love, and Precision

Guests: Megan Marshall (biographer, author of Elizabeth Bishop: A Miracle for Breakfast), David Hagland (New Yorker literary editor)

• On Bishop’s Reserve:

  • "She was not a warm presence in the classroom. She began by telling us she didn't believe poetry could be taught, and that was off-putting." — Megan Marshall [40:31]

• Reading of Bishop’s “One Art”:

  • The poignant villanelle is read and discussed as a meditation on loss. [42:10–43:28]
  • "She makes the experience of, you know, that she's describing ... feels universal. And in that way you're not really pushed necessarily to think about, well, what is she describing from her own life?" — Megan Marshall [43:28]

• On the Poem’s Origin:

  • "In fact, most people have read it as an elegy to Lota ... But in fact it was very much about Alice Methfessel, her beloved partner of later years, and her fear... that she would one day lose her." — Megan Marshall [44:08]

• On Bishop’s Letters and Openness:

  • "Do we feel that way about male poets? ... In protecting her, what would be gained? I think, in fact, one of the reasons her reputation is so high is that people have come to know Elizabeth through her letters." — Megan Marshall [47:14]

• On Art as Survival:

  • "For her, the writing of these poems was... a life raft that she could float on and sometimes float away. But it's clear that at an early age, art became the saving grace." — Megan Marshall [51:25]

• Elizabeth Bishop reading “At the Fishhouses”:

  • "...It is like what we imagine knowledge to be. Dark, salt, clear, moving, utterly free, drawn from the cold, hard mouth of the world..." [52:11]

• Host signoff:

  • "God, that knocks me out." — David Remnick, after Bishop’s reading [54:42]

Notable Timestamps (Segment Guide)

• Two-State Solution – Part 1: 00:31–24:33
• Run the Jewels Feature: 26:25–34:46
• Standing Desk Comic Essay: 35:03–37:41
• Elizabeth Bishop Profile: 38:47–54:42

Additional Memorable Quotes

• "Despair shouldn't be an option for any of us." — David Remnick [24:33]
• "Choose the lesser of the evil people and the devil still gonna win; it could all be over tomorrow. Kill our masters and start again..." — Killer Mike (Run the Jewels lyric), [34:30]

Conclusion

This episode offers a dense, nuanced look at the political deadlock between Israelis and Palestinians—showcasing entrenched narratives and flickers of hope—contrasted with vibrant cultural discussions (Run the Jewels, Bishop) and a dose of levity. Through interviews and music, it highlights the persistent human need for new stories and new forms, even when solutions—political, artistic, or health-related—remain as elusive as ever.