Podcast Summary: The New Yorker Radio Hour

Episode: Tommy Orange and the Urban Native Experience
Date: July 31, 2018
Host: David Remnick, co-production with WNYC Studios and The New Yorker
Featured Guest: Tommy Orange (interviewed by Deborah Treisman, The New Yorker fiction editor)

Overview

This episode delves into the life, work, and perspective of Tommy Orange, a debut novelist whose book There There explores the underrepresented world of urban Native Americans. Through a thoughtful reading and intimate conversation, the episode illuminates the complexities of identity, belonging, and community for Native Americans living in cities, as well as the creative journey behind Orange’s critically acclaimed novel.

Key Discussion Points

1. Tommy Orange’s Creative Journey and Influences

• Early Relationship with Reading and Writing

  • Tommy Orange shares that he was not initially drawn to literature, nor successful in academics. He became a musician and pursued sound engineering before landing at a used bookstore, where his love for novels began.
  • Notable Quote:

    "There was a moment I was on break from the bookstore and I was parked outside of a donut shop eating a donut and reading Confederacy of Dunces. And I realized what the novel could do. And, you know, in that moment, I knew I wanted to write one." — Tommy Orange [01:47]

• Transition from Experimentation to Personal Storytelling

  • Orange discusses writing "really weird stuff" before incorporating autobiographical elements, which gave his fiction more structure and significance.

• Academic Development and Community

  • He pursued an MFA at the Institute for American Indian Arts in Santa Fe, where he discovered the importance of community and found freedom to write authentically.
  • Notable Quote:

    "...you don't have to explain yourself, you don't have to explain your culture, and everyone knows your context...the freedom to write into something that's more, particularly your voice..." — Tommy Orange [03:08]

2. Representing Urban Native Americans in Literature

• A Need for Urban Native Stories

  • Orange notes a scarcity of novels about urban Native Americans, suggesting a link between this gap and questions of cultural authenticity.
  • Notable Quote:

    "I couldn't find...They're not prevalent. I think it's related to a struggle for authenticity and feeling like you're native enough. Growing up in the city, that's my only guess..." — Tommy Orange [04:14]

• Complex Identity and Belonging

  • With a mixed White and Native background, Orange reflects on frequently being misidentified, feeling an outsider in both cultures, and ongoing scrutiny about his Native status.
  • Notable Quote:

    "If I was in...around a Mexican community, they spoke Spanish to me first every time. And in high school, I was...called racial slurs for being Chinese...But people always wonder...are you Native? And the follow up question after I say yes was...well, how much?" — Tommy Orange [05:13]

3. The Structure and Purpose of There There

• Multiple Voices, Rejecting the Monolith

  • Orange conceived the novel as a polyphonic narrative, focusing on diverse Native characters who converge at an Oakland powwow.
  • Intentional resistance to the "monolithic view" of Native culture by depicting a range of ages, interests, and modern experiences.
  • Notable Quote:

    "Because we struggle against, like a monolithic view of our culture...I wanted to show the dynamic range. I wanted to write characters that were different ages and were into different things that have to do with pop culture." — Tommy Orange [06:36]

• Significance of the Powwow Setting

  • Powwows act as microcosms for urban Indian life—intertribal, vibrant, not meant as spectacle for outsiders.
  • Notable Quote:

    "It's a perfect microcosm for urban Indian life because it's inter tribal. This...makes urban Indian life different than reservation life. Because usually on a reservation you're one tribe...people came to cities on relocation...Now, you can't ask them to necessarily just identify with one." — Tommy Orange [07:36]

• Community vs. Touristic Performances

  • While non-Natives may attend, powwows are not performances for outsiders—they are for the Native community.
  • Memorable Exchange:

    David Remnick: "And it's not attended by white people. It's not a performance of Indianism for sort of tourists."
    Tommy Orange: "Yeah, not at all...it's definitely not for non Native people. It's for us." [08:28]

4. Native Renaissance and Future Hopes

• On a Cultural Renaissance

  • Orange acknowledges a possible renaissance in the arts post-Standing Rock and in reaction to the Trump era, but hopes it will be lasting, not another fleeting wave.
  • Notable Quote:

    "I hope that the renaissance isn't one of these waves, because it happened in the 70s and it happened in the 90s. I hope it's not just a temporary thing. I hope we can build something sustainable." — Tommy Orange [09:05]

• The Next Generation of Native Writers

  • He expresses optimism about the talent among his students at the Institute for American Indian Arts.
  • Notable Quote:

    "...a class just graduated with a ton of talent. Like, it made me feel like our class wasn't, you know, you were the warmup." — Tommy Orange [09:53]

Additional Memorable Moments and Quotes

• On Writing from Lived Experience:

  "Once I realized that I was going to include details about my own life, I think my writing changed and took on more form and moved away from experimentation." — Tommy Orange [01:47]

• On Questions of Authenticity:

  "There's just so many gradations. There's a big range of what it can mean." — Tommy Orange [05:13]

Timestamps for Important Segments

• Introduction and Reading from "There There": [00:19–01:37]
• Tommy Orange on Discovery of Novels and Writing: [01:47–02:49]
• Discussion of Community in Native Writing: [03:08–03:59]
• Addressing Urban Indian Literature: [04:14–04:58]
• Discussion on Identity and Mixed Heritage: [05:13–06:19]
• Book Structure and Purpose: [06:36–07:16]
• Powwows and Urban Native Microcosm: [07:36–08:28]
• On Exclusion of Outsiders from Powwows: [08:28–08:51]
• Native Renaissance: [09:05–09:49]
• Teaching and Future Native Writers: [09:53–10:15]

Concluding Thoughts

This episode shines a light on a vital, frequently overlooked facet of American identity—the urban Native experience. Tommy Orange's thoughtful reflections on culture, authenticity, and artistic expression reveal both the difficulties and richness inherent in his community's modern life. His novel and this conversation mark a significant contribution to pushing the conversation about Native American life—and American literature—forward.

For more information on Tommy Orange and his work, visit: The New Yorker - Tommy Orange

Note: Subsequent segments (Supreme Court Justice sketch and wedding story) follow in the full episode but are unrelated to Tommy Orange’s feature.