The New Yorker Radio Hour: Toni Morrison Talks with Hilton Als

Date: August 6, 2019
Host: David Remnick
Guest: Toni Morrison (interviewed by Hilton Als)
Summary prepared by podcast summarizer

Overview

This episode is a tribute to Toni Morrison, one of America's most influential writers, and features a deep, insightful conversation between Morrison and New Yorker writer Hilton Als. Recorded in 2015 at the New Yorker Festival, the conversation explores themes central to Morrison's work—identity, community, race, gender, trauma, and transformation—while also delving into her creative process and reflections on contemporary society. Morrison's warmth, wit, and wisdom shine through as she engages with Als on both personal and political levels, offering profound thoughts on history, family, art, and the enduring human spirit.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

The Humanity & Survival of Black Communities

• Hilton Als introduces Morrison: Als opens with a meditation on the identities of Black men in America, highlighting Morrison’s ability to give her characters meaningful names and stories, setting the tone for a discussion on narrative, history, and visibility.

  • “Every name comes with a story dear to those who have bestowed it. In her extraordinary career … [Morrison] has given names to any number of her black male characters. Names that are story in themselves.” (01:24)

• Morrison on violence and response (06:41):

  • Morrison recalls her statement: though African Americans have suffered “really vile and violent and bestial treatment,” they “did not succeed in making those descendants reproduce that violence and that corruption and bestiality as their response.”
  • She reflects on the forgiveness shown by families after acts of violence, describing it as “grander,” “humane,” and “elegant.”
  • Quote: “We always assume for some reason [forgiveness] is a kind of weakness ... whereas I always thought that that was extreme strength. Extreme.” (07:35)

Community, Care, and Changing Social Landscape

• Morrison reminisces about the sense of community in her Ohio childhood—neighbors looked out for each other, and adults felt safe telling children to “go outside and play.” (08:16)
• She contrasts past communal bonds with the present era’s climate of fear and isolation:
  • “Whatever you were doing, there was somebody else in the community who knew where you were, who you were, and whether or not you were in difficulty.” (09:28)

Fraternity and Sanctuary in Morrison’s Novels

• Als notes the recurring theme of sanctuary and fraternity in Morrison’s work, referencing the novel Home:
  • “Each person of color [the protagonist] meets helps him on his journey because they’re not asking questions about his legitimacy. They know his legitimacy.” (10:03)
• Morrison recounts experiences of generosity and safety within Black communities while traveling, contrasting them with the suspicions of the current era. (10:46)
• Discussion of Home’s protagonist’s journey and Morrison’s literary technique:
  • Morrison withheld racial identifiers at first, trusting in the reader’s ability to understand from context, only including details at her editor’s persistence. (15:32)
  • She deliberately saved vivid descriptions of “the color of trees, flowers, whatever, until he got really close to home”—creating a sense of emotional return and safety. (16:49)
  • Quote: "So that the reader would feel that ... they had returned to a place that was, you know, they may not like you, but they're not going to hurt you." (17:09)

Gender, Control, and the Genesis of Paradise

• The conversation turns to the power dynamics in Paradise, inspired by historical Black towns. Morrison describes the drive for male control, particularly over women seen as independent or outside the community’s norms. (18:09–22:36)

  • Quote: “The necessity for control, that’s male. See, my thing is this. I think that in the beginning ... there were a lot of female gods, goddesses in the early civilizations ... and then [men] began to farm ... and so all the gods changed names ... Control.” (19:34)

• Morrison explains how even communities founded by the oppressed can become authoritarian:

  • “Unfortunately, they became as discriminatory and authoritarian as the people who had thrown them out or wouldn’t let them in...” (22:10)

Shifting Between Genders in Writing

• Als asks about Morrison’s transition from writing predominantly about women (The Bluest Eye, Sula) to exploring the interior lives of men in Song of Solomon.
  • “I don’t really know what the interior life of a man is as a writer. Maybe as a human, but certainly as a writer. ... But I had this incredible serene feeling that I would know that somehow it would come to me ... and it was true.” (24:15)
• Morrison shares that strong female characters (like Pilate) sometimes “take over the book,” requiring her to intentionally mute their voices to maintain balance. (25:25)

The Influence of Morrison’s Father

• Morrison discusses her father’s protective racism, rooted in trauma from witnessing lynchings in his youth:
  • “But one of the men who ... grew up in that little town said that my father had seen two Black men lynched on his street. ... I think that's why he thought that white people were ... incorrigible.” (26:50)
• She shares the lesson of “self-approval” her father instilled:
  • Quote: "It was so perfect, I put my initials underneath ... I know, but I know it’s there. And ... that sense of, you know, self-approval. That’s right. Was very important to me." (29:28)

Language, Journalism, and Storytelling

• Morrison expresses skepticism about the representation of Black lives in mainstream media, citing the subtle manipulation of language:
  • “I remember when the New York Times started using the word ‘try’ ... it’s a kind of code. The language is manipulated and strangled in such a way that you get the message, although the veneer of accuracy is there.” (13:44)
• She describes using the Green Book to research travel for Black Americans while writing Home, infusing realism and unspoken understanding between author and reader. (14:52)

Theatre, Collaboration, and Creative Process

• Als explores Morrison’s work in theatre (Dreaming Emmett, Desdemona) and how it informs, or is informed by, her novels:
  • Morrison feels her visual, staged sense in novels influences her playwriting, not the other way around: “I think the novels inform the plays … I do see scenes, theatrical scenes and dialogue.” (32:21)
• Morrison recounts the creative spark for Desdemona, shifting the focus from Othello and returning agency to Shakespeare’s tragic female lead. (33:26)

Modernism, Manhood, and Emotional Resilience

• The fathers and sons of Morrison’s novels are discussed, such as in Jazz with Golden Gray:

  • Als references: “I don't want to be a free nigger. I want to be a free man.”
  • Morrison expands: “You’ve got to act black. … Grow up, get tough. … A black man is a powerful thing, a tough thing, a strong thing in his mind.” (35:21)

• Paul D. in Beloved. Als and Morrison discuss the image of the tobacco tin as a metaphor for the hidden, guarded heart necessary for Black survival:

  • Quote: “He has ... a tobacco tin in his chest where he keeps everything lidded, all the profound emotions. ... And it is protection. He's been through some terrible times.” (37:14)

Trauma, Transformation, and Knowledge

• Morrison asserts that every novel she writes is about characters moving toward knowledge, often through sacrifice:
  • Quote: “Every one of those is a movement toward knowledge. ... It’s not like a happy ending. ... It's just that you grow, you learn something, you know.” (39:39)
  • She offers Home as an example: “At the end, that sentence, ‘they fought like men’, becomes ‘here lies a man, a real man who permitted himself to be killed so that his son could live.’” (40:39)
• The importance of sacrifice for transformation is underscored: “I don't think it [transformation] can happen without a little sacrifice.” (41:25)

Reflections on the Contemporary World: Individualism, Consumerism, and Identity

• Morrison reflects on “the now” and its obsession with self (selfies, novels about me, consumer identity):
  • Quote: “What was very definitive about now is so powerfully, powerfully self-referential, selfies, look at me.” (42:12)
• She traces a linguistic shift from being called “citizens,” to “consumers,” to “taxpayers,” illustrating a decrease in collective identity and increase in individualistic, self-protective attitudes:
  • “If you are only a taxpayer, you are worried about who's got some money that you paid ... That's a whole different thing.” (45:59)
• Morrison shares her original title for God Help the Child:
  • Quote: “I called it The Wrath of Children. … Everybody hated it … but I thought The Wrath of Children … sounded like Billie Holiday or somebody.” (46:51)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Morrison on Forgiveness:

  “Whereas I always thought that that was extreme strength. Extreme.” (07:34)

• On Community:

  “Whatever you were doing, there was somebody else in the community who knew where you were, who you were, and whether or not you were in difficulty.” (09:28)

• On Writing About Men:

  “I don’t really know what the interior life of a man is as a writer. ... But I had this incredible serene feeling that I would know ... and it was true.” (24:15)

• On Her Father's Lesson:

  “It was so perfect, I put my initials underneath ... I know, but I know it’s there.” (29:28)

• On Media Language:

  “The language is manipulated and strangled in such a way that you get the message, although the veneer of accuracy ... is there.” (13:44)

• On Sacrifice and Growth:

  “Every one of those is a movement toward knowledge. ... you grow, you learn something, you know.” (39:39)

• On Contemporary Individualism:

  “Powerfully self-referential selfies. Look at me. Novels about me, stories about me.” (42:12)

Timestamps for Important Segments

• Introduction & Eulogy for Morrison: 00:21–01:24
• Hilton Als’s Opening Reflection & List of Morrison’s Characters: 01:24–05:38
• Community and Forgiveness: 06:41–09:44
• Themes of Sanctuary & Fraternity in Home: 10:03–12:23
• Writing Violence and Racial Absence/Presence in Storytelling: 13:40–17:00
• Gender, Control, & Black Towns (Paradise): 17:36–22:34
• Writing Men and Her Father’s Influence: 23:42–29:28
• Theater and Creative Process: 31:14–34:14
• Manhood, Trauma, and Modernism in Morrison’s Novels: 35:21–41:38
• Contemporary Society & Identity: 42:12–46:51

Tone and Style

The conversation is intimate, thoughtful, and gently humorous, brimming with personal anecdotes and philosophical reflection. Morrison’s voice is wise, warm, and both candid and poetic. Als’s questions show deep admiration and sensitivity, drawing out Morrison’s insights and stories with empathy and clarity.

This episode is not just a literary interview; it is a meditation on American history, culture, family, selfhood, and compassion—guided by Morrison’s extraordinary life and language.