Podcast Summary

Episode Overview

Podcast: The New Yorker Radio Hour
Host: David Remnick
Guest: Jill Lepore, Harvard historian and New Yorker staff writer
Episode Title: What Are We Talking About When We Talk about Socialism?
Date: February 19, 2019

This episode explores the evolving meaning and perception of "socialism" in American political discourse. Host David Remnick and historian Jill Lepore examine socialism’s complicated history in the U.S., discuss generational shifts in attitudes, and unpack the resonance of socialistic policies today, referencing figures from Eugene Debs to Bernie Sanders, and current policy proposals like the Green New Deal.

Key Discussion Points and Insights

I. The Shifting Meaning and Perception of Socialism

• Socialism as a Political Cudgel:

  • The episode opens with a montage of political rhetoric where "socialism" is used disparagingly to describe public policies (e.g., Obamacare) or left-leaning politicians.
  • Remnick observes: “For some on the right, any social program that used tax dollars was big government and big government was socialism, and socialism was Chairman Mao sending you to a re education camp. That's the story.” (00:51)

• The Generational Shift:

  • Lepore notes that younger Americans no longer equate socialism with communism due to their distance from the Cold War era.
  • "You can see [red-baiting] going on now and it's not really getting a lot of traction… Those terms have become uncoupled" (Jill Lepore, 02:20)
  • Disaffection with the Democratic Party among younger voters supports this change.

II. What Does “Socialism” Mean in America? (And Does It Mean Anything?)

• Lepore argues that the term is often conflated with social democracy and is now “unhelpfully vague.”
  • "It actually doesn't mean anything. I mean, I think that is the problem. So one is people conflate socialism with social democracy, and I would say they no longer conflate socialism with communism." (Jill Lepore, 03:03)
• The historic question: “Why is there no socialism in the United States?”—and the difficulty of even defining the term in this context.
• American traditions (the “social safety net”) often look socialistic but are never labeled as such.

III. Contemporary Policy Proposals and Historical Parallels

• Medicare for All and Higher Taxes on the Wealthy:
  • Lepore says these are not “socialistic” but represent bipartisan traditions of "good government" aimed at checking unrestrained capitalism.
  • “I don't think they are socialistic…we might be better off referring to as good government. We don't talk about good government anymore.” (Jill Lepore, 04:42)
• Green New Deal:
  • Compared in scope to the Great Society and the creation of the national security state.
  • Each was an “urgent response to a crisis… defended on the grounds that everything else would fall short.” (Jill Lepore, 05:49)

IV. Eugene Debs, Bernie Sanders, and Socialism’s American Roots

• Eugene Debs:

  • "Debs is actually best understood as essentially a lay Christian preacher rather than as a socialist. I think that his socialism drew on Christian theology." (Jill Lepore, 07:11)
  • Debs evolved from a party-line Democrat to a union leader advocating for radical equality, forming the American Railway Union, which led to the Socialist Party.
  • "He was a martyr to the cause… Running for the fifth time for president from prison was what sort of rode him into American myth." (07:11)

• From Unions to Data Monopolies:

  • Comparing the economic power of railroads in Debs’ era to today’s tech conglomerates (Amazon, Facebook, Google).
  • Lepore: "Those corporations are our railroads, right? … the Internet and the railroad are quite similar, structurally, in very meaningful ways." (Jill Lepore, 15:32)

• Bernie Sanders & Debs:

  • Both embraced socialism at personal/political cost, and their actual policies align more with social democracy.
  • “There cannot be monopolies. There need to be higher taxes. There need to be workplace safety measures…better understood as social Democrats.” (Jill Lepore, 11:13)

V. The Use—and Abuse—of Labels

• U.S. politics discredits not proposals but the labels (e.g., “socialist”) attached.
  • Remnick notes Trump’s State of the Union positioning: “We will never be a socialist country.” (13:07)
  • Lepore: “The label becomes toxic, but the ideas carry forward.” (13:28)
  • FDR is cited as Sanders’ model—though he disavowed the socialist label, his policies aligned with its principles.

VI. The "Timidity" of New Socialism

• Lepore says current emerging socialism doesn't directly confront data monopolies or other structural issues.
  • "I'm not sure that structurally anyone is calling out what are some of our gravest problems... the Facebook Google Amazon problem.” (14:27, 14:55)

Notable Quotes and Memorable Moments

• On Generational Shifts:
  “The disaffection with people on the left, with the Democratic Party, especially younger people, is profound.” (Jill Lepore, 02:20)

• On Defining Socialism:
  “It actually doesn't mean anything. I mean, I think that is the problem.” (Jill Lepore, 03:03)

• On ‘Good Government’:
  “We might be better off referring to as good government. We don't talk about good government anymore.” (Jill Lepore, 04:42)

• On Debs & Sanders:
  “Their willingness to embrace socialism during a time when it wasn't popular to embrace socialism and when it came at a great cost, their willingness to be ostracized for that and to be on the margins of American politics.” (Jill Lepore, 11:13)

• On FDR and Political Labels:
  “The way our politics works is to discredit not the idea or the proposal, but the label.” (Jill Lepore, 12:55)
  “The label becomes toxic, but the ideas carry forward.” (13:28)

• On Timidity and Data Monopolies:
  “I don't actually think that they call out the sort of data monopoly. ... I think that that would be alienating to their younger supporters.” (Jill Lepore, 14:27, 14:55)
  “[Tech giants] are our railroads, right? And the railroad and the Internet are quite similar, right? Structurally, in very meaningful ways…” (Jill Lepore, 15:32)

Timestamps for Key Segments

• Opening and discussion of “socialism” as a political insult (00:09–01:18)
• Generational shift: Cold War, red baiting, new attitudes (02:20–03:03)
• What does socialism mean now? Is it different in the U.S.? (03:03–03:50)
• Medicare for All, Green New Deal, higher taxes—socialism or not? (04:22–05:21)
• Comparison to LBJ’s Great Society and the national security state (05:49–06:55)
• Eugene Debs’ history and influence: Social Christianity, union origins (07:09–09:06)
• Debs vs. contemporary politicians and the changing social landscape (09:19–10:02)
• Bernie Sanders and Debs: policy similarities, embracing socialism (11:13–12:22)
• Labels vs. policy, FDR as model, Trump’s rhetoric (12:22–13:28)
• Wilkie’s saying and the endurance of “socialistic” ideas (13:28–14:19)
• Timidity in confronting big tech/data monopolies (14:27–16:12)
• Closing acknowledgments and next segments (16:14 onwards)

Conclusion

This episode offers a nuanced, historical perspective on the ambiguous and contested meaning of "socialism" in the American context. Through an engaging conversation, Remnick and Lepore challenge listeners to think beyond political labels—insisting that while terminology like “socialism” or “liberalism” is weaponized and muddled, the underlying debates about economic justice, regulation, and the public good persist across eras. The real test for modern movements may be whether they can address the new “railroads” of our time: massive tech monopolies and the role of government amid technological transformation.

Listen for sharp historical insights, a debunking of myths, and a call to rethink what meaningful political change might look like in 21st-century America.