Special Edition: Science of Scrolling & How to Stop

Summary

The NewsWorthy — Special Edition: Science of Scrolling & How to Stop

Host: Erica Mandy
Guests: Dr. Julie Frattantoni (Cognitive Neuroscientist), Shannon Algeo (Psychotherapist)
Date: October 11, 2025

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Episode Overview

This special Saturday edition dives into the “science of scrolling”—why our phones are so hard to put down, how excessive screen time affects our brains and relationships, and what we can actually do to change these habits. Host Erica Mandy speaks with Dr. Julie Frattantoni, a neuroscientist, and Shannon Algeo, a psychotherapist and digital detox leader, to deliver both the “why” and “how” of healthier phone use.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Digital Addiction: More Than a Phone Problem

• Dr. Julie Frattantoni emphasizes that digital addiction is not only about technology, but “an emotional regulation problem.” Many people are using their phones to escape uncomfortable feelings or cope with stress, rather than addressing the real issues. (01:21)
  • Quote:
    "Oftentimes people are using their phone or social media as an escape, as a way to avoid uncomfortable feelings or to cope with stress. So it's really more about not just the phone as the problem, but what are your coping skills, your emotion regulation skills." (01:34)

2. The Habit Loop Behind Tech Use

• Phone use often happens subconsciously, driven by a “habit loop” of trigger, behavior, reward.
  • Example: Check phone for weather → end up scrolling for 10 minutes without realizing it. (02:13)
  • Quote:
    "It can become very automatic, but you can break that cycle with the awareness." (02:41)

3. What’s Happening in the Brain

• Smartphones and notifications exploit neuroplasticity, making us more distracted and stressed.
• This strengthens the brain’s reward networks, reducing motivation for essential real-life activities and increasing dependency. (02:49)
  • Quote:
    "Smartphone use... is building a more distracted brain, which ends up building a more stressed brain." (02:49)

4. Linking Screen Time to Health

• Research suggests high scrolling time can shrink brain volume and impact mental health.
  • “Scrolling itself can contribute to negatively impacting mental health, increasing stress... it’s also about what screen time is taking you away from: sleep, exercise, social connection.” (03:42-04:39)

5. Kids and Tech: Modeling Matters

• Children's brains are even more susceptible due to heightened neuroplasticity.
• Parental modeling is crucial: kids imitate what they see adults doing, not just what they’re told. (04:50-05:47)
  • Quote:
    "Children imitate what you do, not what you say. So just making sure that your own phone use...you’re modeling those behaviors..." (04:50)

6. Detox and Environment: How to “Reset”

• Short digital detoxes (even 72 hours or 2 weeks) can reduce depressive symptoms and improve attention “as if they were 10 years younger.” (06:45-07:40)
  • Quote:
    "Within one study that looked at a two week period...they saw a reduction in depressive symptoms that was better than antidepressants and...on par with therapy." (06:45)
• Both environmental changes AND emotional regulation are needed; willpower alone is not enough. (06:06-08:06)

7. Mindfulness and Breaking the Scroll Habit

• Becoming aware of how scrolling actually feels can diminish its reward value (a concept taken from Dr. Judd Brewer’s habit research). (08:42-09:49)

  • Quote:
    "Go ahead, use your phone, scroll as much as you want, but while you're doing it, pay attention to how you're actually feeling...people will notice they actually feel more anxious or stressed." (08:42)

• Practical tools include mindful scrolling and the “physiological sigh”—a quick breathing technique to lower stress in real time. (10:05-10:51)

  • Technique (10:05-10:51): Inhale fully, add a quick extra sip at the top, then exhale with a sigh.

8. Quality Over Quantity: Rethinking Screen Time

• It's not just about less screen time, but how you use your device: active use (communication, work) is less harmful than passive scrolling. (11:38-12:46)
  • Quote:
    "It's not just the overall amount, it's really the quality of screen time that you're doing." (12:46)

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Interview with Shannon Algeo: The Emotional Impact & Practical Strategies

9. Phones and Human Connection

• Digital communication lacks vital elements of empathy: tone, facial expression, body language. This leads to a sense of “disconnection” despite being constantly “connected.” (15:40-16:40)

  • Quote:
    "Our brains crave tone of voice, facial expression, body language...We’re craving more than what online discourse can provide." (15:53)

• FOMO and Peer Influence:

  • Phones feed into our innate need for belonging, making social media especially addictive. (16:56)
  • Quote:
    "There’s this deeply biological impulse to do what others are doing so we can be a part of the movement." (16:56)

10. Digital Detox Retreats: Confronting Avoided Emotions

• On multi-day “digital liberation retreats,” people experience waves of previously suppressed emotions—especially grief.
  • Quote:
    "Emotion can get stuffed or ignored or avoided when we are constantly scrolling to distract ourselves...Suddenly the whole circle was in tears." (17:57-19:46)
  • This creates “collective effervescence”—a deeper sense of connection and shared humanity. (19:46)

11. All or Nothing? Finding the Middle Ground

• You don’t have to quit cold turkey; start with small boundaries (e.g., checking your phone at specific times, or making your first hour of the day phone-free). (21:47-22:59)

  • Quote:
    "Our phones should be a tool to support us. We should not be the tool that the phone is directing." (22:59)

• Morning Ritual Example:

  • “The first hour of every day is mine.” (22:59)
  • Even if you’re busy with kids or work, being present (not scrolling) can enhance connection in those moments. (23:41-24:03)

12. Practical App: 1sec

• Shannon’s recommended app, “1sec,” adds an intentional pause before you can open certain apps, helping interrupt mindless scrolling. The “strict block” mode enforces longer breaks. (25:00-26:02)
  • Quote:
    "I’m obsessed with the strict block feature... they are completely blocked until 10am every day...it just completely takes off the table the possibility of me compulsively or accidentally clicking Instagram." (25:00)

13. AI & Empathy: The Next Challenge

• As AI grows, Shannon urges caution against viewing AI as a replacement for human connection, especially in therapy or support contexts.
  • Quote:
    "AI is going to mostly please and cater and accommodate the participant….That is going to be so seductive….If I’m going to a computer or an artificial intelligence more than I’m going to my support system, I think we have a big problem.” (26:24-29:04)

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Actionable Takeaways

Quick, Practical Steps to Begin Changing Habits

• Notice the Urge: Next time you reach for your phone, pause. Ask, “Do I really need it right now?” (29:15)
• Find a Worthy Replacement: Replace phone time with something hands-on and enjoyable (music, crafts, walks).
  • Quote:
    "We need a good, worthy replacement...something that ignites desire within us." (29:15-30:45)
• Start Small: Try phone-free mornings, or use apps like 1sec to create digital boundaries.
• Practice Mindful Use: If you do pick up your phone, tune in to your feelings while you scroll.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Dr. Julie Frattantoni:
  • "Children imitate what you do, not what you say." (04:50)
  • "You can't heal in the same environment that made you sick." (06:06)
  • "Willpower won't work here...You have to actually get to the root of things." (08:06)

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• Shannon Algeo:
  • "Our phones should be a tool to support us. We should not be the tool that the phone is directing." (22:59)
  • "Emotion can get stuffed or ignored or avoided when we are constantly scrolling to distract ourselves from thinking, feeling what is underneath the surface of our human experience." (17:57)
  • "We need a good, worthy replacement if we're going to confront and reckon with and change our smartphone behavior." (29:15)

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Timestamps for Major Segments

• 01:21 – The real roots of digital addiction (Dr. Frattantoni)
• 02:13 – Habit loops and subconscious patterns
• 03:42 – Scrolling & health—mental, physical, brain volume
• 04:50 – Kids, neuroplasticity, and modeling behavior
• 06:45 – Detox studies: attention and depression
• 08:42 – Mindfulness as a tool to break the habit
• 10:05 – Breathing technique: The physiological sigh
• 12:46 – Quality vs. quantity of screen time
• 15:53 – Impact of tech on empathy (Shannon Algeo)
• 16:56 – FOMO and social media’s pull
• 17:57 – Digital detox retreats and emotional processing
• 21:47 – Avoiding all-or-nothing thinking
• 22:59 – Building better boundaries in morning routines
• 25:00 – Using the “1sec” app for mindful tech use
• 26:24 – AI’s risks & the future of human connection
• 29:15 – Simple first steps: Notice, pause, replace

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Final Take

If you feel your phone controls you more than you'd like, you're far from alone—but change is possible. Both experts agree: Awareness, mindful practice, and environment shifts matter more than willpower. Small intentional changes—like putting your phone away in the morning, using technology mindfully, or finding an activity you genuinely love—can reduce stress, improve mood, and strengthen your relationships, both with others and yourself.

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Learn More:

• Dr. Julie Frattantoni – “Better Brain” newsletter on Substack
• Shannon Algeo – Upcoming book: The Power in Your Hands: Liberate Yourself from Smartphone Attachment
• App: 1sec (not sponsored—just recommended by both host and guest)

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For more links and resources, visit thenewsworthy.com and check the episode notes for October 11th, 2025.

Transcript

[A]

Today is Saturday, October 11th. If you've ever felt like your phone has a hold on you, you're not alone. Studies show the average American now spends more than four hours a day on their phone and checks it around 200 times daily, sometimes without even realizing it. So why is it so hard to put our phones down? And what is all that screen time actually doing to our brains, our bodies and our relationships? Today, we're diving into the science of scrolling and the strategies to stop. First up, I'm talking with Dr. Julie Frattantoni. She's a cognitive neuroscientist who's spent over a dec studying how to improve cognitive performance. She's helped thousands of people train their brains and runs the popular substack newsletter Better Brain. Later in the show, we'll hear from a psychotherapist, researcher and author who leads digital detox retreats around the world. But first, Dr. Julie Fratttoni is here to explain why our phones can change the way our brains work and how we can reverse any damage. Welcome. Welcome to the Newsworthy special edition Saturday. When we sit down with a different expert or celebrity every Saturday to talk about something in the news.

[B]

News.

[A]

Don't forget to tune in every Monday through Friday for our regular episodes where we provide all the day's news in 10 minutes. I'm Erica Mandy. It's now time for today's Special edition Saturday. Dr. Julie Fratttoni, thank you so much for joining us here on the Newsworthy.

[C]

Thanks for having me.

[A]

So I know that you've said digital addiction is not a phone problem necessarily, that it's more of an emotional regulation problem. Can you explain, explain what you mean by that? And how do you, how did you come to that conclusion?

[C]

Yeah, well, I don't want to discount the fact that, yes, technology is designed to be incredibly addictive. So I'm not going to minimize that. But I will say oftentimes people are using their phone or social media as an escape, as a way to avoid uncomfortable feelings or to cope with stress. So it's really more about not just the phone as the problem, but what are your coping skills, your emotion regulation skills. How can you regulate your nervous system and learn how to do that without having to depend on something else to kind of numb or distract?

[A]

And does this become a subconscious thing that is happening, like people aren't realizing it?

[C]

Yeah. So I want to explain what's called a habit loop. So you've got a trigger, a behavior, and then a reward. And so oftentimes this is this Happens so quickly, from having the trigger to then doing the behavior and then feeling the reward that we're not even realizing we're doing it. So oftentimes you might find yourself, you know, you went to check the weather or the time on your phone, and then all of a sudden you're, you know, you've been scrolling for 10 minutes. It can become very automatic, but you can break that cycle with the awareness.

[A]

Can you explain what the science says about what is happening with our brains when we're scrolling or getting notifications on our phone?

[C]

So your brain is constantly adapting to your environment and things you're doing based on how you're using it. That is neuroplasticity. And so smartphone use, when we are constantly scrolling and getting notifications, it's doing several things, but two big ones are. One, that it's building a more distracted brain, which ends up building a more stressed brain. Right? Having constant interruptions, losing your train of thought, not being able to be fully present with the people you're in front of or the thing that you're doing. And then it also becomes incredibly addicting, like I mentioned, right. It's continuing to reinforce the brain's reward networks, which can then really hinder motivation to do other things like have social interactions in real life or exercise or study for a test.

[A]

Has there been any research connecting scrolling and some of these habits that cause us things like anxiety? Has that been linked to chronic disease such as Alzheimer's?

[C]

There is a study that did look at scrolling time and how it affects brain volume and showing that higher use in terms of scrolling on your phone was associated with less brain volume, so that it was shrinking your brain, which. That sounds really dramatic and I don't want to scare people, but there is a direct relationship. And I think what's important or what you can take away from that is, you know, the scrolling itself can contribute to negatively impacting mental health, increasing stress. But then it's also what you need to notice is what is the time you're spending on your phone taking you away from? Are you scrolling up late into the night? And so then it's cutting into your sleep. Are you scrolling during the day so that you're not actually getting outside or getting sunlight or physical exercise? You know, you're getting lost in a rabbit hole online instead of making plans to meet up with a friend in person for coffee. So I think not just the screen time itself, but it's the compounding effects of then the other things that you're missing because of the time Spent on your phone.

[A]

I imagine kids brains are even more susceptible to some of these things. Would you say that's true? And what's happening in an adult versus a kid who's looking at these screens in social media?

[C]

Yeah. So in the developing brain you have incredible amount of neuroplasticity. Neuroplasticity lasts your entire life, but it is especially plastic in childhood. And this is when you're learning a lot of really foundational patterns about how to operate in the world. Right. And how to relate to things around you. So I think it is a very crucial time because this is when the brain is developing social skills and developing especially emotion regulation skills as well. I would just say children imitate what you do, not what you say. And so just making sure that your own phone use that you're modeling those behaviors of not having your phone attached to you every second of every day, having maybe a special charging station for it somewhere in the house so that it just is away or especially during mealtimes. But yeah, just really it starts with you and yourself and what you're modeling. And that's gonna be more impactful than any rules that you're gonna reinforce.

[A]

So do you think putting on one of those apps that doesn't allow you to use your phone or putting your phone away, or getting one of those brick phones, do any of these things actually help? Or is it more than that, that you need to be able to handle your own emotions before it's actually gonna have long lasting effects?

[C]

I think it's both. I think you need both. Your environment shapes your behavior. And so we know that you can't heal in the same environment that made you sick. So having a period of time where you remove that can allow you that space to then develop some better coping or regulation skills. And then you can reintroduce it in a different way so that then your relationship with the technology or that device is a little bit different so you don't fall right back into the old patterns.

[A]

Right. So when you watch the show like White Lotus and they all have to put their phones away in the resort, something like that, can that help as long as you make progress before you get your phone back?

[C]

Yeah. Studies have shown people doing a detox just 72 hours or even one as long as two weeks where you still can use your phone for texting and calling, but you just don't have Internet on it, so you're not checking email or using any social apps. And the results from that in within. There was one study that looked At a two week period of this and they saw a reduction in depressive symptoms that was better than antidepressants and it was on par with the effects effectiveness of therapy. And this is just two weeks. It struck me that also their attention really improved on measures of sustained attention. It was as if they were 10 years younger. So enhancing cognitive performance. And then they also found that they had more time. So all these benefits and these things are incredibly rewarding. So it's absolutely possible in a pretty short amount of time to see incredible benefits for mental health, cognitive function for everyday life.

[A]

It would be fascinating to follow up with those people two weeks after they return to normal life. Has that happened?

[C]

I don't know that they've done a follow up study to see, you know, how much those new relationship with technology stuck or even how long the benefits lasted or if people just went right back to where they were before. I don't know that they followed them, but I would love to see that. That should be a great follow up study.

[A]

But it does sound like that simply cutting back on your screen time helps.

[C]

Sure, it absolutely does. But I think that willpower won't work here because we're talking about really strong reward networks. Dopamine, serotonin, these systems of the brain. You can't just try to use your phone less. You have to actually get to the root of things. And you can work to sort of reevaluate how rewarding that behavior actually is. And you can do that through things like mindfulness and building awareness.

[A]

Talk me through how people can start to break the bad habit but also create more emotional regulation that can then help them with that.

[C]

Sure. So Dr. Judd Brewer is a professor and psychiatrist and he's done a lot of research around breaking habits and addiction. And one of the things he recommends and from some of his studies where they help people break smoking addiction is they actually or even eating addiction. They, they tell them don't worry about limiting. You're smoking, say go ahead. In fact, smoke as much as you want, but when you do it, be really mindful. So in this case, let's say go ahead, use your phone, scroll as much as you want, but while you're doing it, pay attention to how you're actually feeling. And what people will notice is that they actually feel more anxious or they're feeling stressed or they feel comparison or jealousy or whatever it is while they're scrolling. The example I love to share that he had shared from a participant who was smoking. They were paying attention to the experience and they said it actually tastes like chemicals and smells like stinky cheese. Like the actual act of doing this is not enjoyable. And then your brain can reevaluate. Oh, this is not as rewarding as I thought it was. Right. And when it becomes less and less rewarding, you're less, you have less desire to do that behavior.

[A]

So something really stressful at work happens and I feel like I'm going to reach for my phone, but I become more aware of it. Do you recommend? Okay, now just scroll more mindfully. Or is it I've become aware. Maybe don't touch your phone and take some deep breaths instead. What do you recommend?

[C]

Yeah, absolutely. Well, in the beginning, I think it takes a bit of training to even realize, oh my gosh, I'm reaching for my phone. Or why am I reaching for my phone? Right? Or I, oh, I am reaching for my phone because I'm stressed. So once you're at that level of awareness and you even have a little bit of a gap to make a decision, I do recommend doing a number of different things to regulate your stress, depending on what works for you. So taking some breaths is great. One that I love to teach people is the physiological sigh. It's very simple, but basically I'll walk you through it. So I'll tell you what we're going to do and then we'll try it. But so you're just going to take an inhale, a full breath in and then once you get to the top, you're going to take an extra sip of air in and then sigh out your mouth and that's it. So here we go. So take a breath in, take an extra sip in at the top, exhale through the mouth sigh.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, it feels nice.

[C]

Yeah. Just one breath really makes a difference. And you can do that a few times if you want. What I want people to understand is you don't have to go into full blown meditation mode. Right. It's simply just a few breaths and the brain chemistry behind that is really altering your neurotransmitter levels in real time. So when you feel really anxious, it's because there's too much norepinephrine. And when you take a slower breath, a belly breath into your diaphragm, it actually helps to optimize those levels so that you can get in that more calm, alert state. So it's not just woo, there is some really great science to support what's happening in real time and that can happen so quickly.

[A]

Is there a certain amount of time. Yeah. Where I should be trying these methods where it will become more natural.

[C]

So I almost think what you're asking here is like, how long does it take to form a habit? Or how long until we see how much do you need to do? And it's really hard to quantify that because everyone's use is a little bit different and every person is different. I know there was a study that looked at people wanted to form a new habit of taking a walk after dinner. And it ranged from some people formed that habit in, don't quote me exactly on it, but the difference was like 18 days to like 200 something days. Right. So there's an incredible range of individual variability when it comes to these things. I also want to say that it's not just overall screen time in general. Right. If I look at my screen time report, it does say five hours a day, but I'm using my phone for work, right. For to communicate with people, to, to research things. So it's like it's not just the overall amount, it's really the quality of screen time that you're doing. Like I said, engaging passively versus actively. And technology is an incredible tool that enables us to do a lot. And so I'm not anti technology by any means. I'm just pro brain health. Right. And using it in a mindful way.

[A]

Still ahead, another small practical step you can take today that could make a major difference. I've actually been using it since I did this next interview coming up and it's already had a huge impact. Our next guest is Shannon Algeo. He's a psychotherapist, researcher, author of the upcoming book the Power in youn Hands. Liberate yourself from Smartphone Attachment. And he hosts the Soul Feed podcast. He's been named 3535 in wellness to Watch by Wunderlust and has spoken at the United nations and more. He also leads digital liberation retreats around the world where people put away their phones for days at a time. What he says happens during these retreats and once people go home and why you don't have to fully disconnect from your device to start to feel better. That's coming up. But first, a break for our sponsors. The Newsworthy is brought to you by Quints. When it comes to fall style, I'm looking to invest in pieces that feel timeless. And last season after season, that's exactly what Quince delivers. Everything they make, from $50 Mongolian cashmere sweaters to washable silk tops and premium denim, feels polished, comfortable and well made. I still wear my favorite wool sweater from Quince that I got last year. I've also been loving the bracelet my friends gave me from Quince. Beautiful, simple and something I wear practically every day. And what I love is how every piece from Quint's feels wearable for real life. From weekday errands to weekend dinners. It's not just luxury you have to save for special occasions. It's comfort you actually want to live in. And here's the thing, Quints works directly with top tier ethical factories and cuts out middlemen so you and I get luxury quality at half the price of similar brands. It's smart style that feels just as good as it looks. Find your fall staples at Quint's. Go to quince.com newsworthy for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. Now available in Canada too. That's Q-U-I-N-C-E.com newsworthy the newsworthy is also brought to you by Fatty 15. As I get older, I'm focused on health that lasts, not just quick fixes. And one product that's earned a spot in my daily routine is fatty 15. It's a clean, vegan, science backed alternative to fish oil, but with something completely new, a molecule called C15. It's the first essential fatty acid discovered in more than 90 years and it's been shown to strengthen our cells from the inside out, supporting longevity, heart and liver health, and even better sleep and focus. What I love most is how simple it is, just one small capsule a day. It's so easy to take because it's small and it tastes like nothing and it's great. Knowing something so effortless is helping my body stay strong and resilient. Fatty15 is on a mission to optimize your C15 levels to help you live healthier longer. You can get an additional 15% off their 90 day subscription starter kit by going to fatty15.comnewsworthy and using the code Newsworthy at checkout. Again, go to fatty15.com newsworthy and use that code newsworthy at checkout. Now to my conversation with Shannon Algeo. Shannon Algeo, thank you so much for joining us here on the Newsworthy.

[B]

Thank you so much for having me, Erica.

[A]

So first, as a psychotherapist and someone who's researched smartphones extensively and their impact on us, what do you see as the biggest impact our smartphones are having on our mental health and our relationships?

[B]

The impact that smartphones and technology have on human empathy? There's research that shows that the the Discourses that we have online hidden behind our devices when we're trying to. Like when we're fighting with our uncle on social media or unfriending someone. There are so many neurobiological reasons why our brains were not designed to be relating to each other online. And that's because our brains crave tone of voice, facial expression, body language. Our brains developed for nearly 2 million years to crave these things. Our brains are craving more than what the online discourse can provide to us.

[A]

And I think all of us know in some way that there's a negative side to all the scrolling and smartphone use. And yet a lot of us are doing it a lot, every day anyway. So why is that?

[B]

Social media apps can uniquely exploit the human mind. We are designed to mirror and mimic and seek belonging in the tribe. Right? Like that's how the human relational development works, is we want to be a part of what other people are doing. And so we all know that experience of like, fomo, like, if I leave social media, if I'm not up to date on people's lives, if I'm not following the latest trend on TikTok, then am I gonna fall behind? And so there's this like, deeply biological impulse to do what others are doing so that we can be a part of the movement.

[A]

And is it truly the tech pulls us in or as another guest that we've talked to for this segment has mentioned that it's also, are we able to regulate our own emotions and be with discomfort, or are we looking to distract ourselves from that?

[B]

Totally a emotional component to this. So I leave these five day digital liberation retreats, I call them ceremonies, because it's like it is, it is wild to see what comes up when you put your phone away for four or five days and to do it in a group. So when I lead these workshops at the Esalen Institute, I give people these three levels, like, do you want to be offline the whole time? Do you want to check your phone once or twice a day because you need to for some particular reason, or do you not want to change your behavior at all? Most people are either phone off the whole time, they're like ready to go, or they are at the mid level where they need to check in on something once a day with a specific intention at a specific time. And so these rituals of going offline, these community practices of doing it together, because it's a lot easier to do it in a group than it is to do it alone, are opportunities to, to see what comes up when you take some kind of intentional break. And one of the things that amazes me about 24 hours in to the group going offline on these retreats is suddenly there is emotion in the room that gets. Emotion can get stuffed or ignored or avoided when we are constantly scrolling to distract ourselves from thinking, feeling what is underneath the surface of our human experience. So, for example, on the most recent retreat, one participant brought up some grief that they were feeling and became tearful. And suddenly the whole circle was in tears. Almost everyone in the room was moved to tears, and the conversation moved into a whole discussion on grief. This. I was not claiming this as the facilitator, but the group deepened into, here's the emotion I've been avoiding. All it takes is one person taking a risk or having the courage to say, I'm feeling grief. I lost someone. And then you realize how many other people in the room have lost someone and have unprocessed grief. And just one person's courage to feel and express their emotions suddenly allows for this resonance. Emil Durkheim calls it collective effervescence. This. This sense of shared experience where we feel less alone. One of the things about the technological social media experience is that people spend eight hours a day on their phones, and then afterwards, research shows that they report feeling more isolated and more lonely, even after all that time connecting on social media and via text message. And so what I see in these workshops is something really beautiful where people become more invested in their physical surroundings. The people who are around them, and I witness their capacity to. To feel emotion, actually expand.

[A]

What happens when all these people go home and have to go back to reality? Are there lasting benefits to this type of experience?

[B]

I would say yes and no. Like, yes in the sense that I think it is far better to have a reference point of, now I know what it's like to go away from my phone. Once you know that you can do that, suddenly that plants a seed for future possibilities of taking breaks.

[A]

How can people avoid that? All or nothing thinking that they. That it's either total phone dependence and checking it every hour, or it's, I have to put it away and be totally off the grid.

[B]

So, for me, I noticed my behavior after this most recent retreat. I got back my phone, and then slowly I noticed I was waking up in the morning, and first thing I was doing is checking my phone. And, you know, like, some stress in the morning is actually a good thing. We want to have enough stress in our system that we feel motivated to go out into our days. But I Realize I'm like relying on the phone for that cortisol, for that direction. What should I do? Who needs me? Who's texting me? What? What am I supposed to make of today? How am I supposed to show up? What's on my calendar? Who's emailing me? And the problem with that for me, and I think for a lot of us, is I'm always responding to the boundaryless, never ending needs of others that come flowing through the phone. Rather than checking in with myself and having a practice of landing, grounding, arriving in the day and asking myself, like, what is today about for me? What do I feel called to focus on today? To create for me, the boundary that I set with myself was, okay, it feels achievable to me to wake up in the morning and instead of looking at my phone, looking at the oven clock, the first hour of every day is mine. Our phones should be a tool to support us. We should not be the tool that the phone is directing.

[A]

Yeah. And just that morning example, you know, I'm thinking about it in my life, I might not have time for myself first thing in the morning as I'm getting my kid, you know, breakfast and out the door to preschool and all of these things. But if I still am not using my phone, I can be more present with him. I can still just be more aware of my surroundings. Even if I'm busy with other things. It can still have an impact, I imagine.

[B]

Absolutely. Yeah. Being present with the, the tasks that you're participating in the morning. I've had moments where I'm like trying to chop vegetables and all the vegetables are like washed and on my counter and I keep checking Instagram and I am like. And I'm literally, I'm having this experience of how do you chop vegetables and scroll on your phone? And then I'm like, oh, wait, that's not possible. I need to get off my phone to prepare this meal. And. And it's. That is the type of thing that I'm like, I know I'm not alone in these experiences of the phone intercepting something that we want to do with our hands.

[A]

And it's so relatable because it also might be, I want to go check a recipe or what's the best way to cut a pineapple or something? And before you know it, you're accidentally on Instagram versus finding the thing you originally picked up your phone for.

[B]

Totally. Oh, my gosh. And this is why I use this app called 1sec. And 1sec creates a breath. It's A visual breath that you take. So I click Instagram and One Sec comes in and it intercepts and creates this breath. But what One Sec also has is a block feature and a strict block feature. And Erica, I am obsessed, obsessed with the strict block feature. So every day there is a news app, there's a dating app, there's social media apps that I have programmed, and they are completely blocked, strictly blocked, meaning I can't change it until 10am every day. Usually it's noon or 2pm, but I recently set it at 10. And I love this because it just completely takes off the table the possibility of me compulsively or accidentally clicking Instagram when I want to be looking up the pineapple recipe.

[A]

I just downloaded it as you're speaking, so I'm excited to give it a try. Thank you for that tip. I do want to ask you before we wrap up here, what's your take on the potential impact of AI as that becomes more and more prevalent in our lives? And what's your advice for people as this next technological tool becomes so widespread?

[B]

As a therapist, I think a lot about this in the context of therapy and how people are using AI to engage in a simulation of therapy. I think it's really important that we be careful with language. And I feel very uncomfortable calling something an AI therapist where we're humanizing artificial intelligence. And I think that we need to over emphasize the real embodied wisdom of human beings just as much as a baseline, if not way more than we're valuing something like artificial intelligence. Rupture and repair is an essential part of human relating. We need to have conflict with other human beings in order to learn boundaries. Okay. When I said that thing to Erica, she didn't like that. And she let me know because I could see it on her face. And then, oh, when I said this thing to this other person, they didn't like it either. Okay, maybe my behavior is like impacting people in a certain way. I'm going to look at that. I'm going to just notice that when I behave like this, it has this kind of reaction. Maybe I can soften the way I respond when I get triggered or activated. AI doesn't do any of that. AI is going to mostly please and cater and accommodate the participant. And that is going to be so seductive. It's going to be so alluring. It's going to be so much better in some respects. Oh, this thing just gives me what I want. It just tells me what I want to hear. It perfectly accommodates it. It Never needs to take a moment. It's always available. And I think that that's dangerous. I really do. I don't think that it's bad. I don't think that we should totally avoid it altogether. I think AI can be used for purposes that are helpful. But if we're not questioning our process, especially thinking about attachment styles and how we are designed to need other humans, if I'm going to a computer or an artificial intelligence more than I'm going to my support system, I think we have a big problem. And as we move into this next stage of the next 10 years, I do think that our empathy, our humanity, and our relationships to other people are going to become so much more valuable and so much more important than they, than they already are.

[A]

I want to leave people with one action that they could take today to create a healthier relationship with their phone. What would you suggest that one thing for them to try be today?

[B]

The next time you go to grab your phone, just notice it and can you retract your arm and let the phone sit where it is? Can you not grab it? Do you really need to grab your phone in this moment right now? And what if you didn't? And with that, I would say the practical thing that I would love for everyone to reflect on is we need a good, worthy replacement if we're going to confront and reckon with and change our smartphone behavior. So, like, for me, it's my guitar or my ukulele. I need to use my hands to do something that is worthy of my attention and my presence and brings me joy and distracts me and gets me involved in something tangible. So it's really hard to just stop doing something, stop using your phone, stop grabbing your phone. We have to go towards something that ignites desire within us. So I think it's really important to build a sense of, of desire, motivation in something that is going to compel us, just like the phone compels us, but something that we're choosing to replace it with.

[A]

Thanks to both of our guests today, that app he mentioned in this interview that I downloaded on the spot has honestly been a game changer for me. This is not sponsored, but it definitely makes me more aware of my social media use. So if you want to check it out, it's called One sec. If you want to learn more from Shannon Algeo, our guest, you can pre order his book. It's called the Power in youn Liberate Yourself from Smartphone Attachment. And be sure to learn more from Our first guest, Dr. Julie Fratttoni. Her substack newsletter is called Better Brain and you can follow her on Instagram and TikTok at Dr.juliefrattantoni. find all the links by going to our website thenewsworthy.com, clicking episode notes and finding today's date. This week our team is off on Monday due to the Federal holiday, but we'll be back on Tuesday with all the news you may have missed. Join us each weekday for our 10 minute daily news wrap roundups and learn more about a different topic each weekend with our Saturday interviews. So join us again on Tuesday. Until then, have a great rest of your weekend.