← The NewsWorthy
The NewsWorthy
Special Edition: Two Years of War – Israel, Gaza & Searching for Peace
00:19:01
We’re just days away from the two-year mark of the Hamas attack on Israel and the start of the war in Gaza that continues today. We’re speaking with Dr. Boaz Atzili — a professor of international security with deep personal ties to this...
Loading summary
Transcript25 lines
- [00:00]
A
Today is Saturday, October 4th. We're just days away from the two year mark of the Hamas attack on Israel and the start of the deadly war in Gaza that continues today. Just this week, a new deal was proposed to end the war. As we discuss this today, I do want to acknowledge the various and very strong opinions different people have about this topic. It's not an easy one to talk about, but we believe it's still important to do so. So we reached out to today's guest for both his professional and his personal connection to this war. We also wanted to highlight a voice that reflects the complexity of this moment, that it's not only pro Israel or pro Palestinian. Dr. Boaz Azili is a professor at American University School of International Service. His research has long focused on territorial conflict and border politics and he's written extensively on Israel and security policy. And his family has also been directly affected. His cousin Aviva Zili was among Those killed. On October 7, 2023. Aviv's remains were taken, though Israeli Defense Forces recovered his body in Gaza months later. Aviv's wife Liot is an Israeli American who was taken hostage into Gaza. After weeks in captivity. She was released in a hostage deal. Boaz Azili is here to reflect on the impact of that day two years ago for his family and the world, the ongoing costs and consequences of the war and what he sees as possible paths forward for Israelis, for Palestinians and for the region as a whole. Welcome. Welcome to the Newsworthy special edition Saturday, when we sit down with a different expert or celebrity every Saturday to talk about something in the news. Don't forget to tune in every Monday through Friday for our regular episodes where we provide all the day's news in 10 minutes. I'm Erica. Mandy. It's now time for today's special edition Saturday. Boaz Atzili, thank you so much for joining us here on the Newsworthy.
- [01:55]
B
It's my pleasure.
- [01:56]
A
Can you take us back to that day, October 7, 2023. What do you remember about first hearing the news and what the community experienced?
- [02:07]
B
So I've been here in the US When I looking at my phone and I see like hundreds of messages on WhatsApp and everybody are panicking and it's not only Aviv and Liad, but most of my family actually live in this area, in the area that oftentimes called the Gaza envelope, like close to the border with Gaza. So that includes my dad, who's 91 and not really well. And that includes like all my wife's family and everybody are there. So basically we Try to reach everybody to see if they are okay, what's going on. And the news was completely crazy and weird and unbelievable. So obviously we were very worried about everybody. We managed to get to talk to some people, but not to others. And it looked like the communication with Aviv and Liat had been lost. But it took a while until it was clear that they are not, not in Israel. And that later on there's confirmation that they, they have been, that there are hostages in Gaza.
- [03:18]
A
I'm so sorry that you all experienced that. What has the past two years been like for your family? And then, you know, what is your take on the war today, two years later?
- [03:32]
B
So the past two years obviously been like, incredibly hard because, yeah, it's the family and it's so many friends and people, you know, from that area. And for several months at the beginning, basically all the family was displaced. But very early on I understood that the main obstacle to get all the hostages back home and to end this terrible war is the Prime Minister of Israel, Benjamin Netanyahu, and the government as a whole. But first and foremost, Netanyahu. So this struggle then becomes not only struggle against the terrorist organization that attacked and killed and kidnapped people from your own community, but against the Prime Minister of Israel. And I'm living in the us But I am still a dual citizen of Israel as well. And it becomes just a horrible devastation. And it's very hard to take, especially like being in Israeli and the government of your own country is doing that. Get into my kind of professional hat. It's not only not helping Israel's national security, long term interests, it's hurting it.
- [04:51]
A
Because of international support.
- [04:53]
B
Because of international support, that's one thing. And Israel is in the end, a small country that depends on international support, it depends on international trade, etc. But also because if he wants to weaken Hamas, and Hamas would not be destroyed because it's, you know, it's not only the organization, it's the idea. But if he wants to weaken Hamas, he's doing the exact opposite, then what needs to be done. And everyone who studied counterterrorism can tell you that indiscriminate attacks against civilian population is the exact opposite. What you need to do to defeat a terrorist organization.
- [05:34]
A
And I think it's just a point to emphasize that for anyone who doesn't realize, as you're saying, what the Israeli government is doing is not necessarily how all of the Israeli people feel. And just like we have here in the us there is a difference of opinions across Israel and probably similarly for Palestinians about how they feel about Hamas.
- [05:56]
B
Right. So in Israel, first of all, very persistent polls show that majority of people in Israel want to end the war. So some want to end the war because they understand that this is the ultimate price they need to pay for returning of the hostages. And a lot of people care about the hostages, of course. And some want to end the war because, in addition to that, also because they do not agree with what the war is doing with the Palestinians in Gaza. And they don't see, like, a revenge on that scale as something that is morally right and something that is like contributing in any way to the Israeli interest. So a large majority, between 70 and 80% in each poll, supports ending the war in return for getting back all the hostages. Also the Netanyahu government, at the same time that the war is going on, it uses the fog of war, if you will, to clamp down on Israeli democracy. Really?
- [07:05]
A
What about the argument that if you want to blame anybody, it's Hamas, that they're the ones putting civilian lives at risk by operating within the civilian population? What do you want people to know about that?
- [07:18]
B
Right. I mean, Hamas is a vicious terrorist organization. Their ideology is to destroy not only the state of Israel, but the people of Israel by any means. And so I would not try to defend Hamas, of course. And, you know, they killed my beloved cousin, they killed many others. There's no forgiveness for that in that sense. But let's talk about the children that, you know, that's not their fault that Hamas is doing what it's doing. And there's no justification for, like, this mass killing of innocent citizens in the name of getting Hamas. That's one. And the other thing is that it doesn't really get Hamas, it gets the citizens. And Hamas is benefiting from that by creating much more popularity the more Palestinians in Gaza are suffering.
- [08:17]
A
Do you believe what Israel's doing in Gaza is genocide?
- [08:22]
B
So I have two answers to that. First, if you look at the UN definition for genocide, as much as it hurts, I have to admit that it does fit the definition of genocide. I think this definition is somewhat problematic, especially because there's ambiguity regarding, like, the scale of this and how large it needs to be for it to be called the genocide. But I think that there's way too much energy and discussion gets into this question of whether or not it's a genocide, which doesn't in and of itself affect any kind of policy or response.
- [09:16]
A
Coming up, Boaz Azili shares memories of his cousin Aviv, and lets us know how Aviv's wife Liot is doing today, plus his hopes for a path to peace and why he believes it's possible to be both pro Israel and pro Palestinian at the same time. That's coming up, but first, a break for our sponsors. Coffee is a morning ritual I don't skip. It's comforting, delicious, and like a little treat just for me each day. And with Trade Coffee, the experience is taken up a notch. Trade works with more than 50 local roasters to deliver beans that are roasted to order and shipped straight to my door. The difference is instant, the aroma when you open the bag, the flavor in every cup. It's just not something you can get from standard grocery store coffee. And because they curate options for both hot and cold brew, we can enjoy it no matter the season. No wonder Trade is the number one coffee destination in the us. What I love most is that the subscription takes the guesswork out of it. Trade learns your tastes and matches you with beans you'll love. And if something misses the mark, they'll replace it for free until they get it right. So for us, it's become a simple, delicious upgrade to our everyday routine that we really enjoy quality coffee at home. Right now, Trade is offering 50% off a one month trial at drinktrade.comnewsworthy that's drinktrade.comnewsworthy to get 50% off half off a one month trial. Drinktrade.comnewsworthy the Newsworthy is also brought to you by Dose. Most of us don't think about our livers until something's wrong. But the liver is quietly doing more than 500 jobs every single day. And get this, over 30% of Americans are said to have a sluggish liver, and many don't even know it's that's where Dose for your liver comes in. It's a natural, clinically supported way to promote liver health. One daily shot has the equivalent of 17 shots of turmeric juice and it's vegan, gluten free, dairy free and sugar free. My husband and I both tried it and we were surprised at how good it tastes. Sometimes health shots can be kind of a chore, but this one is easy and it feels good knowing we're taking care of ourselves in such a simple way. In a clinical trial, dose lowered liver enzyme levels by 50% in more than 86% of participants. People who stick with it also report more energy, better digestion, less bloating, and even better sleep. Save 25% off your first month of subscription by going to Dosedaily Co Newsworthy or entering the code Newsworthy at checkout. That's Dosedaily D O S E D A I L Y co Newsworthy for 25% off your first month subscription. Now back to my conversation with Boaz at Zeeli. What is the message that you've heard from the families who are still waiting, who may still have loved ones held hostage in Gaza who are still alive?
- [12:01]
B
The situation now is that there are 48 hostages that are still in Gaza. We know that many of them are not alive anymore. And the families are exhausted. They afraid, they terrified. So people are afraid and they basically, they don't know. With the beginning of the war in Gaza, a city Hamas said that they will get all of the hostages outside of the ground, basically using them as a human shield. But families of hostages know that in opposition to the IDF's advice, the government still decides to go on with the assault from the air and from the ground. So this is a very scary situation. And I think most of family are just, they're scared, they're exhausted, they don't know what to do. And it's clear that the only way to bring them home alive is through ending the war. You know, some of them been on the street protesting every day, every day since in the last two years. And that cannot go on like that.
- [13:13]
A
I know this is personal for you. Can you share with our listeners a bit about who Aviv was, both as a person and as a family member?
- [13:22]
B
Aviv was really a great person. I don't know anybody who had more friends than Aviv had. He would talk to somebody for five minutes and they will be friends for the rest of their life. He was a mechanic and he ran the agricultural mechanic workshop in their kibbutz. But he also was an artist. In the last few years of his life, he created this wonderful creation from scrap metals that he would draw on them miniatures of scenery of the Western Negev, of the fields and tractors and stuff like that. And I think that also reflected his ability to take these very hard metal pieces and make them into something so warm and lovely.
- [14:19]
A
His wife Liat, a US Israeli dual citizen, came back in a hostage release deal. What can you share about how she is holding up?
- [14:28]
B
You know, I'm sure that deep down she has trauma that she has with her from being in captivity and, you know, losing her husband. And she learned that she lost her husband like one day after she came back from Gaza. So that was like a real trauma. But she's holding back really well. She's doing a lot of stuff. She's Also joined the bereaved family form that it's a group of Israelis and Palestinians that lost loved ones and she's active with them. She came back to teach in high school and she's also an instructor at Yad Vashema Holocaust Museum.
- [15:12]
A
As we wrap up, what do you hope for moving forward?
- [15:16]
B
I think we have to realize that there are several plans for ending the war that are basically achieving everything Israel says it wants in the deal, return of all the hostages, a Gaza that is controlled by somebody other than Hamas, and the security guarantees for Israel, all of that. It was in the Egyptian plan before then the Saudi plan. So it's important to know that there are choices and there are good choices that one could choose if you care to look around.
- [15:52]
A
What's just a final thought about paying tribute to all of those impacted from everything that's happened in the last two years?
- [16:01]
B
I think my final thought is there are two people that live in the space between the river and the sea, if you will, between the Jordan river and the Mediterranean Sea, Israelis and Palestinians. And regardless of how you think, each one of these groups is a genuine nation or not, and both sides trying to suggest that the other side is not a real nation. We know from the study of, you know, nationalism that nations are socially constructed. If enough people believe that they are a nation, then they are a nation. And these two peoples believe that they are a nation and they are not going anywhere. The numbers are more or less similar, I think about 7 million of each. And in the end they will not be able to eradicate or drive away the other side. And the only solution long term is a peaceful solution. Whatever you want to do it like one state, two state, 30 states, doesn't matter. The only solution is a peaceful solution. And on both sides there are a lot of people, I would say the majority, that if they believe that there is a genuine way to find a solution that will also make them feel safer and not all the time threatened by their neighbors, they will go with it. But you need the right leadership on both side to forge the road ahead and to show the people that there are ways that there is a way. And it's not going to be easy because there's a lot of people that, that like the situation of mutual violence, there's going to be a lot of spoilers. But if you continue and basically create alliance between the more peaceful, the more moderate people on both sides, that's the way to win. Not by creating a world in which you have to be either pro Palestinian or pro Israeli. That doesn't help anything. The solution is to be pro peace and to be pro Israel and pro Palestinian at the same time.
- [18:26]
A
Well, thank you so much to Boaz Atzili for sharing his personal and professional insights. And he wanted you to know there's an upcoming documentary called Holding Liyat. You can learn more about it in this episode's show notes on our website, thenewsworthy.com as always, we'll keep you updated with any big developments about the war in Gaza and other news to know, including our regular 10 minute daily news roundups that we put out every Monday through Friday. So we'll be back on Monday. Until then, have a great rest of your weekend.