A (2:19)

That's the last thing I would want anybody to do.

B (2:22)

But if it's on the agenda.

A (2:24)

Just saying. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That's exactly where I'm at right now.

B (2:29)

Well, I hope you feel better soon. That is, even when it is an extremely minor affliction, it is the worst thing that's ever happened to anyone. Every time.

A (2:39)

Oh, 100%. Yeah. I think my girlfriend did say the comparisons to the Black Death were slightly over exaggerated today.

B (2:46)

Well, I mean, you are still alive, but she doesn't Know when it's gonna escalate.

A (2:50)

Yeah, exactly. Ye.

B (3:01)

I was thinking tonight we could hop into the pop culture time machine because I have a moment from the past that has been really at the top of my mind lately and I would like to bring you there with me.

A (3:15)

I would absolutely love to do that. Josh, what moment are we talking? Where is it that you want to take us back to?

B (3:21)

So we're going to go back to January 19, 2002, to the AFC Divisional Playoff game of the NFL. Matt, how familiar with you. And there is no right or wrong answer here with American football.

A (3:40)

I would be lying if I said I knew anything other than the very basics. I. Okay, I've started watching it a little bit now because it started to appear on a terrestrial TV channel over here. So if it's on, I will put it on for a bit and occasionally I will seek out the super bowl and watch that if I'm not working. But apart from that, nothing.

B (4:03)

Oh, that's nice. And I guess the super bowl is on a little later where you live than it is here.

A (4:12)

It tends to be in a hotel after a gig, I think. Oh, that's on. I'll watch that more like, you know, when you just. There's like a live event that you feel like connects you to the rest of the world when you've got nothing else going on.

B (4:25)

Yeah, it's nice to feel grounded, especially when you're on the road. It's nice to have something. Okay. So I grew up outside of Boston, Massachusetts, a place that people who aren't from there hate. And I. So this might be a little controversial for our listeners who like to take an easy just drift off into sleep gently. But I hope I'm not getting people too agitated because I am going to bring up the New England Patriots, a football team that people hate even more than they hate the city of Boston generally and they hate out of. It's jealousy based and it's people who are being small minded, frankly, is what I think in 2002.

A (5:15)

So just very briefly, straight off the bat here, I get the impression that you are a New England Patriots fan.

B (5:21)

I am a New England Patriots fan. I grew up a New England Patriots fan. I drifted away from the NFL for a little while. It kind of coincided with the Patriots being bad for a few years.

A (5:34)

It's weird how that happens, isn't it?

B (5:35)

Yeah, it was kind of a moral high ground I was taking that coincided with the games being less enjoyable for me to watch and now that they're good again so this is kind of the news, Peg, is the Patriots played a very easy schedule this year, and they really ripped through the worst teams in the league. They got a new coach, and they were 14, three.

A (5:59)

Okay.

B (6:00)

But right now, we're in 2002. It's the AFC divisional playoff game between the New England Patriots and the Oakland, at the time, Raiders. So the Raiders have since relocated to Las Vegas, but this is when they're playing in Northern California in the Bay Area. And this is an extremely controversial moment in NFL history because the game turned on an obscure rule that people at the time didn't believe was real or didn't believe was valid. And so there was a lot of controversy, although I believe, according to the letter of the law, this is correct. So what happened was Tom Brady, who was the quarterback of the New England patriots for about 20 years, won five Super Bowls, six Super Bowls of the Patriots, and then another one with the Tampa Bay buccaneers in his mid-40s, which is not usual. He's kind of what you might call a freak. And please stop me anytime if you have questions. Tom Brady was about to throw the ball, and he went to make a forward pass, and he got hit by a defensive player named Charles Woodson, a great defensive player for the Raiders. And the ball came out of his hand and was recovered by the Raiders. Right now, that seems pretty straightforward. That's allowed.

A (7:37)

Okay.

B (7:38)

This is late in the game, and if the Raiders had recovered this ball, it would have basically ensured that they would win. Upon review by the officials, they invoked a rule called the tuck rule, or colloquially known as the tuck rule, which means if you are in the motion of passing the ball and you decide not to, and you tuck it back down to your body to hold onto it, that's an incomplete pass and not a fumble. So a fumble means ball's loose on the ground. Anyone can grab it. Incomplete pass means play is dead. Back to one. Start over again. This was immensely controversial. The Patriots maintain the control of the ball. They moved close enough to the goal to kick a field goal to tie the game, sending it into overtime, where the Patriots won on another field goal, and they went on to win the Super Bowl. This is kind of a big play, a really key moment in, like, the lore of Tom Brady. I remember watching this game. I was at a house party. I just turned 17. I was at the home of my friend Corey, and the game was on in the background, because when you're from Massachusetts, the game is always on in the background. There's no occasion where there's not also like wedding, bar mitzvah, funeral game is on in the background. So the game was on, and I remember watching it and seeing what appeared to be a fumble. And my heart sinking along with everyone in the room. Then the call being overturned, Feeling jubilation, glee. No idea that the rest of America was feeling venomous hatred towards our pure teenage hearts. And then seeing this kind of lead to a dynastic run by the New England Patriots. And so this was. I was thinking about this this week with the Patriots being back in the playoffs for the first time in several years and seeming like they might be actually good in the long term. For the first time in several years. And so this was just like a beautiful moment that I wanted to revisit with you. And I thank you for giving me the space to do that.

A (9:55)

Well, you're very welcome. For a start. Firstly, I do just want to say I love the sound of this team.

B (10:02)

Yeah.

A (10:03)

I like it when there's a team that seemingly everybody else is against.

B (10:08)

Yeah.

A (10:09)

It gives it that extra, extra spice. I really enjoy that.

B (10:12)

It's very fun. I feel that way about, like. Cause I have teams where I'm on the other side of that too. You know what I mean? I don't only root for teams that everyone hates. Like, I think the Yankees, the New York Yankees and the Los Angeles Dodgers have become kind of villainous in Major League Baseball. And I, being from Boston, am a lifelong New York Yankees hater. And I feel very righteous in that distaste. Even though I live in New York City and I have lots of friends who love the Yankees and maybe especially. Cause I. I have lots of friends who love the Yankees.

A (10:44)

Even better.

B (10:45)

Yeah, it feels great. Do you have teams either that you root for or that you root against that have that same kind of, like, frisson?

A (10:53)

Yeah. I mean, with soccer over here, it's very much a one team and that's it for life. So I've got my local team and you hate the team up the road purely because they're up the road.

B (11:07)

Yeah, of course.

A (11:08)

And that's basically what pretty much all rivalries are based on. That they're near you, but they're not you. So they're wrong. And then there is actually, if you go, like Manchester United and Liverpool, that all stems back to, you know, factory work and all work at the docks and, you know, people taking other people's jobs. And it all goes back, you know, 150 years. Some of it.

B (11:31)

Yeah.

A (11:32)

But I just wanted to go back to that decision. If you're being objective. Of course, that sounds like it was the wrong decision.

B (11:43)

So I will say that at the time, I agreed with the decision, but I also think that the rule is silly. It's just also arbitrary. You know what I mean? Like, any sports rule is just kind of like, well, we decided that that's how it is. And so that is how it is.

A (12:05)

Right. And that's still the general consensus now, is it? That a lot of people aren't happy with it, but it was the right thing.

B (12:12)

I think it is a widely reviled moment in American sports history because it was not a rule that most people knew. That's the other thing, you know, so it did kind of feel like nothing says a dog can't play basketball. And so, like, what, you had to dig that deep? So I do understand the distaste for how things turned out, but personally, I must.

A (12:40)

And.

B (12:40)

And I would even hear an argument for like, was he actually tucking the ball back down to his side after throwing? Maybe he wasn't. Maybe he was ready to. To start taking off and running down the field when he got hit. But I do think that it is a coin flip of a call enough that it holds.

A (12:57)

I guess it was probably more reviled because you said that the Patriots went on to have a real run after that. So people will put it back to that moment where it all started. So if that hadn't happened, it probably wouldn't be spoken about now.

B (13:13)

Yeah. I think that because of what ensued, it has become a more notable feature of recent football history or the football history of this century. It also was. I didn't set the stage completely. It was a very dramatic scenario because it was snowing. So this is a game that took place in Foxborough, Massachusetts, with an open air stadium kind of open to the elements. And for the field goal that came after they cleared a path in the snow, they cleared out a little path, which I think is within the rules, so that the field goal kicker could plant his foot more firmly and get that kick across cleanly. So there was this kind of additional meteorological drama as well as a kind of hometown bias in the groundskeeping.

A (14:07)

So there's a lot of layers to it. Yes, that whole story. And I do find. I find stuff like that so fascinating because it's the ripples from a moment like that. They can go so far. It's like over here, it reminds me of. So are you aware of Manchester City?

B (14:27)

Yes.

A (14:28)

One of the biggest teams on the planet. And I remember. And this goes against every rule in this country. That me and my dad supported different teams. You should always support the team your dad supported. But he moved and I wasn't, you know, from the place he was from, but he's from a town called Gillingham in Kent. And years ago, I remember watching a playoff final to get out of the second division, so really low down between Manchester City and Gillingham. And Manchester City won that game on penalties and went on into Division 1, where they kind of cemented their place and then ended up, you know, 25 years later, getting taken over by Saudi Arabian money and all that and becoming the richest club in the world. Gillingham are still in League two. And you just look at it and think, that one, it was decided on one penalty kick. And if that had been saved, that could be like, you might have heard of Gillingham. Now that could be the biggest team on the planet. Cause no one knew about Man City before all the takeover.

B (15:31)

I didn't realize that.

A (15:32)

Yeah. So it's the sort of the same with the Patriots and who was it? Oakland? Did you say Oakland?

B (15:38)

Yep.

A (15:39)

So what happened to Oakland after the fact? Was there any they had.

B (15:43)

I don't know what happened in the immediate aftermath, but they definitely had some lean years and have been moved around. So now they're in Las Vegas, and I want. My heart goes out to the city of Oakland and the people who live there, because they are also. They've lost their baseball team as well. The Oakland Athletics is also supposed to move to Las Vegas and they're temporarily in Sacramento, which is about like an hour and a half from the original stadium because, you know, it's. Again, the owners don't want to spend the money to create a healthy environment for the team. Right. And so it has, like, been a big, bad few decades for Oakland Sports specifically, and the Golden State Warriors, Steph Curry's team, who have played in Oakland, had played in Oakland for years, just moved across the bay to San Francisco. So they've, you know, it's been a real. A real arena drain from Oakland.

A (16:40)

Wow. So I suppose in an alternate universe, that could be the same sort of Gillingham, Manchester City thing then if. Certainly, you know, if Oakland had won that game and gone on a run. Yeah, they could be, you know, you wouldn't move a team that's flying and popular.

B (16:53)

I think that's right. I don't think you would have moved that to Las Vegas at all. So this really would have been. Yeah, this is a real sliding doors moment. And I'm happy the doors slid in my direction much to the fury of again, I cannot overemphasize how much of America is furious about this, and that's okay with me.

A (17:12)

Well, genuinely, thank you very much for the education, Josh. I think I've got my NFL team now. I want to support a team that everybody hates.

B (17:22)

That's right. Thank you for joining me along the axis of evil.

A (17:27)

My pleasure. And with that, I think I'm going to turn in. But it's been fun.

B (17:33)

Yeah. This has been great. Thank you for talking through this with me. Good night, Matt.

A (17:38)

My pleasure. Night, Jo. To learn more about our phone free light and audio experience, head to Hatch Co. You can also follow us at Hatch Podcasts.