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- [00:00]
A
Hello. You're about to drift into an episode of the Nightly, a podcast designed to help you unwind and relax. For the full phone free immersive light experience, visit Hatch Co. Enjoy. All right. I'm Mat.
- [00:32]
B
Hi, I'm Josh. Welcome to the Nightly from Hatch, a slumber party for pop culture lovers. How are you doing, Matt?
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A
Very well, thank you, mate. Very excited. How are you?
- [00:43]
B
I'm doing well. I got a great night's sleep last night. It's led me into a happy and productive and healthy day. And tonight we have an extra guest at our slumber party. We are joined by the hilarious and wonderful John Cullen. John is a semi professional cur and a fully professional comedian and podcaster. Welcome to the show, John.
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C
Thank you both for having me. Thrilled to be here.
- [01:11]
A
Oh, we're very sorry.
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B
We're getting choked up.
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A
I just can't believe you're here.
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B
We're overwhelmed.
- [01:18]
C
Wow, what a greeting. Honestly, no one's ever cried when I showed up on the show before. That's really, really nice. Thank you.
- [01:27]
A
It is a real treat because I don't know how much you know, but we had. We did speak about Curlin at some length a few episodes ago and we did a quiz and it's fair to say that it was embarrassing on our end.
- [01:40]
B
We really ate it.
- [01:41]
A
Yeah.
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C
I believe I was told that that was the impetus for inviting me on the show was basically that you guys did so badly on the quiz that everyone as a collective sort of agreed. We gotta get a guy who actually knows something about curling on here. Less.
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B
Yeah.
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C
Listeners of the Nightly get extremely upset at how curling was represented on this show.
- [02:02]
B
It's kind of a Canadian eye for the non Canadian guys.
- [02:08]
C
Do you want me to talk in a hoser accent the whole time? Will that help?
- [02:14]
B
It is not required. It is delightful. So the Olympics are happening and curling is a big part of the Winter Olympics. And like, I was wondering, what do I need to know? Not just about the gameplay but like, what are the big storylines we should be following?
- [02:34]
C
I could be here all day with that. But yeah, there's a few storylines for sure. I think the from a Canadian perspective, but also from just an Olympics perspective in general. I think one of the big storylines is Rachel Homan. She is the skip of Team Canada and has basically had the two best curling seasons a team has ever had coming into this Olympics. So her team has their back to back world champions. They've had a ton of success on tour. But Rachel has also been to the last two Olympics and Kind of fell on her face a little bit. So, yeah, so she was the four person representative for Canada in 2018 and was the defending world champion and the favorite to win back then. And she missed the playoffs then. She was a mixed doubles player last Olympics they were also one of the favorites there. Also missed the playoff. It's one of those kind of. She is playing better than we've ever seen a curling team play before. She is the favorite. However, she has this kind of Olympics sort of cloud maybe hanging over her head, which I think a lot of us are familiar with. At the Olympics that does become a storyline. It only happens once every four years. So if you don't do well at a couple in a row, that's 12 years of your life where you go, oh, geez, okay. Things really haven't gone the way I was hoping. And so, yeah, so that's a big storyline for us in Canada on, on kind of the women's side of the draw. And then really I would say this, the preeminent story on the men's side for me is just how tightly packed the field is. So on the men's side, I think there's five teams that reasonably could win the gold medal in a 10 team field.
- [04:17]
B
Wow.
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C
So I think for, for fans of curling, it's just going to be extremely exciting to see how it plays out. You've got Canada, Great Britain, Sweden, Switzerland and Italy are kind of all in the mix. If of them won the gold, it would not be super surprising. And so I think it's just the drama of every four years is automatically a storyline. But then the fact that you have so many teams that could win I think is really interesting. On the men's side, so is the
- [04:47]
A
Olympics, is that the big. That's the goal for curling. That's the big thing. Is there any kind of world championships or something that takes more of a precedent or is it. This is the big one.
- [04:57]
C
Olympics is the big one for sure. I mean, the Olympics really revolutionized the whole sport of curling. So curling didn't become a full metal sport in the Olympics until 1998. So it's pretty new in the Olympic program for how popular it is. It's only been in the Olympics now for less than 30 years and it's really has changed the game because obviously when Olympic medals are on the line, that brings a lot more money into the sport. You know, you have countries that maybe you wouldn't normally think of as curling. Sort of powers have put a bunch of money and reason resources into It. Particularly in Asia. So, really, over the last, like, 20 years, we've seen the emergence of Japan, South Korea and China as three very, very good curling countries, which, previous to the year 2000, that didn't even exist. So that has. Obviously, it's made the game a little bit more global. It's made the game a little more professional, because now you have teams that are built like. What we will see is as soon as this Olympics ends, teams will start immediately building their teams for 20. So the expectation in a lot of these cases is we stay together for the whole four years. Yeah, maybe we win some world championships, we win some Grand Slam of curling events along the way, but really, we're. We're preparing and we're planning and we're putting this team together to peak in four years. And so, yeah, the Olympics is. Is the biggest thing by far, for sure.
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A
So, John, you spoke about how it's going to bring more money into the sport if you do well in the Olympics and all that. Presumably, that's making it putting more resources in at, like, a grassroots level for you. Personally, I don't know whether it's just because it's not a huge thing over here because of the climate, but when did you figure out that was your sport? Like, how do you get into curling?
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C
Yeah, it's maybe a little different in Canada than it is in. I presume you're in England.
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A
Yes. Yeah.
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C
Yes. Yeah. So, weirdly, like, Scotland is probably, like, the second most powerful curling country. So you're not far away from where, you know, Scotland was the birthplace of curling. The world number one, Bruce Mowatt, on the men's side, is from Scotland. But weirdly, yes, you're right. Like, in England, it's not really a thing, but in Canada, yeah, it's a little different. It's sort of woven into the fabric of the country here in a way that it's not anywhere else. Like, the sort of prevailing wisdom is that there's about 1.5 to 1.6 million million registered curlers in the world, and 1 million of those are in Canada.
- [07:33]
A
Wow.
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C
So. So that gives you a sense of kind of how it. How it is over here. And so for me, my story is I grew up playing hockey. That's also very Canadian thing to do. You know, I had the classic Canadian hockey dad. He thought I was going to make the NHL. It was this whole thing. And then I just sort of figured out I didn't really like. Like, not that I didn't like hockey. I did like it I loved it. I still do. I still love hockey, but I as playing it, you know, I got to be a teenager and it was sort of like, I'm probably not going to make the NHL in this. And also, I didn't really like getting hit. Once they started introducing body checking into hockey, I was like, I don't know how much I like this. It hurts when they do this.
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B
That's one of my least favorite parts of most activities.
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C
Exactly. Right.
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B
Is when someone else hits me.
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A
Yeah.
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C
And in curling, no one ever hits you. So. So that's awesome. And I actually, Matt, I got a chance to try it through my elementary school. So my elementary school kind of offered like a curling, and that's how I tried it, and I fell in love with it.
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A
What sort of age are we talking here?
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C
Is this 12 when I start? Yeah.
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A
Oh, wow. Okay.
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B
Yeah.
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C
Which in curling is actually can be considered a little late. Cause a lot of people get into curling because of their parents, right. So it's like my parents curl, they love it. So they bring me to the curling club and then I start curling. I didn't have that. My parents were not into curling at all. And quite frankly, my dad still isn't.
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B
I was gonna ask if they were like, no son of mine, definitely when
- [09:01]
C
I was younger, I'm sure he wasn't going bragging about his son being a curler. I think that was probably a little embarrassing for him when I was like a teenager. But yeah, so I'm like 12, 13, and then probably, I guess I'm 14 when I'm fully, like, I quit, like fully quit hockey. Stopped playing organized hockey and then just like really focused on curling. And then, yeah, a couple years after I retired, I got into commentating. And yeah, now I'm commentating the top tournaments in the world. And it's. It's been really, really fun.
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A
So if you were to make it to that Olympic level, what kind of age do people retire at? Like, what is the career span of a curler?
- [09:43]
C
It's a good question. And I honestly think, Matt, it's changing a bit. So I would say, like, previously, like, curling is thought of as a lifelong sport, and that sort of bled down into the, I guess, pro game, for lack of a better word. I think most curlers are not still really like, professional professional. They're not making millions of dollars. But I would say, like, it depends on what position you play, depends on your overall makeup, but usually like mid-40s, there's some exceptions to that. There's some people who Play later. But I do think the sport is changing in that the sport used to be something you could do. I wouldn't casually is not the right word. But even at the top level of the game, it was like you would have a day job, you would have a family life, like, whatever. So it'd be. You'd play maybe eight to ten tournaments a year. You. You travel to those whatever, but you have other things going on. You're not just curling. And now with how good the sport has gotten, and there are some countries who are able to pay their curlers, like their sport federations pay the curlers enough money that they don't have to have a day job. And so Canada and other countries have to kind of try to keep up with that and find ways to make it work. And so I think moving forward, maybe the next 10, 15 years, it's going to change and look a little bit more like a. A professional sport, because I think you're going to see curlers decide in their early 20s, like, I'm not going to university. I'm not. Like, I'm making this my thing and I'm going for it. And then they're going to have 15 to 20 years of going for it, and they're going to get burnt out and they're going to quit or retire earlier, I think. So I think it's going to change. But, yeah, right now, like in the Olympics, the oldest Olympian is a curler. The US alternate rich Ruinen is 53. Canada's oldest Olympian is also a curler. He's 44. The average age of the Canadian team is 41, I believe. So, yeah. It's something you can do at a high level, into your 40s, no problem. I just think the way the sport is going, people are eventually going to burn out and retire earlier.
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A
That makes sense. Yeah. Because I assume it's advantageous, isn't it? Because if it's. If physically you can keep up with the physical side of it, the older that you are, the better it'd be. You've got more experience and, you know, you've. You've kind of been there and done that. I always think that with. It's like snooker.
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C
Yes.
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A
Isn't it? Like you, you kind of peak way later.
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C
Yeah.
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A
Because it's not got the physical demands of like a soccer or NFL.
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C
Totally. And don't get me wrong, like, curling does have physical demands, but you're right. And especially in a sport where there's so much strategy, it is definitely advantageous to play as Many games as possible.
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B
At a really high level. What are the things, as a commentator for you and as fans and spectators for us that we should be looking for, like, really high level curling? Like, what separates good from great?
- [12:50]
C
I would say there's a couple things that separate the elite that you can kind of look for. The first is the sweeping. So top. Top level curlers are very, very, very good at sweeping. Like, insanely good. They can put so much pressure on the broom, they can really, really manipulate the rock with how they're sweeping. So that's the first thing you'll notice. Like, I think people who watch the only watch curling during the Olympics sometimes. It's like in the four years, they forget, like, how strong curlers actually are. Like, it's like somewhere around 2024, their mind went back to, like, oh, curlers, like, drink beer and smoke cigarettes, right? And then 2026 rolls around and the Olympics start and they go, oh, no, Right. Curlers are, like, young and fit and hot. I forgot about that part of it. The second is just the execution, literally. Like, I think the thing for a club curler, like, the game played at the rec level is so much different than the game played at the top level. Like, I would almost compare it. Like, I think basketball would be, like, a great comparison, right? Like, if you go to play basketball at the Y, when you're on defense, like, you're not running set defenses or whatever, it's just like, everybody pick up a guy, and we'll just try our best to keep the ball out of the basket, you know? And it's kind of like that. In rec league curling, you can't make as many shots as the pros can, so the strategy by default changes because you're just basically trying your best to even get rocks and play. And so that's the thing you can really notice when you watch a high level game of curling is just how many shots are being made. And I know when you watch it on tv, there's always this sense of, oh, I could start curling tomorrow and I'll be in the next Olympics or whatever. And then you go try curling once, and you're like, oh, no. Actually, it's extremely hard to get the rock to go where I want it to go.
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A
That's actually something that I've always wondered. And this is gonna probably sound like a ridiculous question, but when it comes to you, obviously throw. Would you say throw? Throw.
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C
Yep.
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A
Throw the rock. Yeah.
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B
Nail it.
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C
You're really making us look good.
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A
I did say we got zero out of four on the quiz. Yeah.
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B
We really biffed it.
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A
We're coming here.
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B
Humiliating.
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A
From a very low position.
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C
Yeah.
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B
We've been studying all week.
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A
I was gonna say stone as well. And when you said rock a second ago, I was like, rock. It's rock. Gotta say that.
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C
No stone's good. No, stone is fine too.
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A
Fine too.
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C
Say stone or rock. You just don't say. I would say the two main things people call it that you. That is wrong. Obviously. One is puck. Yes. So people do call it a puck, which I get it is like the shape of a hockey puck and it's on ice. I get it. But it is definitely not a puck. Okay. And people do just call it a ball. They're like, that's just a ball.
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B
Ridiculous.
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C
Yeah. No, that's not a ball.
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B
We all know what a ball is.
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A
I can't imagine how frustrating that must be for somebody like you to see that sudden influx of terrible takes on the Internet.
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C
It's interesting because I will say I think most people do just like to watch curling during the Olympics. So it's usually positive. Like, yes, they're maybe screwing up all of the terminology and stuff like that. But I feel like we're fairly. As curlers, I feel like we're fairly forgiving of that. Like, we get it. There's a lot of terminology and a lot of stuff to learn. Like, I think we're. We're pretty good about that. But you do get the usual, why is curling even in the Olympics? It's not a sport. Or the. Yeah, I could start this tomorrow and I would be in the next Olympics. And it's like, okay, I do understand
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B
that feeling a little bit. Not for curling, for any Olympic sport, because everyone you watch is excellent. I was watching the women's thousand meter speed skating the other night.
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C
Yes.
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B
And they. That one. One athlete set the new Olympics record, and then in the next heat, someone else set the new Olympics record. And I like, despite knowing watching it and going like, that's so hard. They're going so fast. They're so skilled. When I saw that they set the record twice in a span of eight minutes, I was like, okay, well, how hard could it be if everybody's just breaking the record?
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C
Speed skating, I love, like, especially long track speed skating, which is what you're talking about. I love it because certain camera angles, you're like, oh, they're not even going that fast.
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B
Right. Because they're just tracking with the camera.
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C
Yes. And then as soon as it switches to the side view or the camera's in the corner where they're making the turn. You're like, oh, my God, they're going faster than any human has ever gone.
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B
Yeah. I would fly into the stands and die immediately.
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C
Yes, exactly.
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B
But, Matt, you were asking a question. I'm so sorry.
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A
Sorry. Yes. Yeah. No, it would be a real travesty if I didn't get this terrible question out. But I've always been curious, is it more about throwing the stone or the sweeping? Like, is it all about the stone throw and then the sweeping is kind of the minor adjustments to get that perfect kind of angle in?
- [18:01]
C
Yeah, it's a great. It is a really good question, actually. That's not a terrible question at all. So. So good question. Matt, don't beat yourself up, man.
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A
Hey, thanks, Joe. Thank you.
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C
Well, and it's also funny because, really, at the top levels of the sport, we are debating how much do we want the sweeping to do. So. Shameless plug. I made a podcast called Broomgate, which was about a scandal that happened in curling, like, 10 years ago, where essentially, a new company came out with a new broom, and everybody sort of universally thought this broom is too good. And we have to do something about how good this broom is. It's sort of similar to, like, golf is going through right now, where they're like, how. How powerful should we make the drivers? How springy should we make the golf balls? You know, whatever.
- [18:47]
B
Running, too. I have a friend that's, like, a very competitive runner, and there are competition level running shoes that you. That they're like, oh, there's too much bounce in these. This is like running with, like, trampolines on your feet, and it doesn't count.
- [19:02]
C
Yeah, totally. So we're. We're still sort of grappling with that. So basically, the solution we came up with in Broomgate was a new fabric. We thought that, like, fabric on the broom was too good, and we needed to come up with a new fabric. And then we came up with a new fabric, and then the broom company started making the foam pad that's underneath the fabric harder so then you could get more out of every sweep. And then we decided the foam was too hard, and we had to nerf that. And so this is a roundabout way of saying that, like, I think most curlers would tell you they want the game to be about, like, an average shot. They would love for it to be about 80% shooting. So just, like, you have to still make a really good throw to make the shot, and then 20% sweeping. So, like, the Idea is the sweeping should help, but it shouldn't make the shot for you. And I think a lot of top curlers would tell you, with the equipment we have right now and what we know about sweeping techniques, right now, we're probably closer to, like, 60, 40, or 5. 35.
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A
Wow.
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B
So this. The brooms are still very powerful, comparatively correct.
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C
So I think, like, they've kind of came up. So the foam stuff all happened last year, so they kind of are coming. It's kind of like everything's on the fly. They knew they had to get to this Olympics with, like, a solution that worked for everybody. And so for me, I think that after this Olympics, they're gonna go back in the lab, and we're gonna have even more nerfing of the sweeping coming up in this next quadrennial. But it's sort of a thing where you get. You get deep enough in the quad, you can't change the rules too much because teams are prepping for the Olympics and everything, but it's like it's trying to find that balance.
- [20:48]
A
From what you were saying there about the brooms, I assume then, that that's a standardized broom for the whole sport. It's not like Formula one or something where each team's going away and trying to engineer the best broom? Because I assume they were all different.
- [21:03]
C
Yeah. So there's a few major broom manufacturers, but, yes, the fabric has to be the same, and then the foam, it's specific to each manufacturer. So it's like Formula one, where everyone has to use the same tires. Like, it's. Not everyone has to use the exact same broom model, but every broom manufacturer was told, you have to use this fabric and you have to use this foam, but that's just for competitive play. In recreational play, you can use whatever the hell you want.
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A
Right. Well, genuinely, John, I could talk about this all the time, for sure. I'm honestly so intrigued because, you know, when you come at something with just such a. It's such a low level of understanding. Everything is amazing.
- [21:44]
B
And you're such a generous expert, really bringing us up to speed on this.
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A
And it's explained so well.
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B
Thank you.
- [21:51]
C
Oh, thanks so much for having me.
- [21:52]
A
Been an absolute pleasure. But before we do wrap up, John, is there anything that our listeners should know that you've been working on that we can point them in the direction of?
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C
Sure, yeah. I mean, I did bring up a curling scandal, which was, yeah, very pretty popular podcast. Came out a couple years ago now. But, yeah, a lot of people have said that even if you know nothing about curling, it's a really intriguing story. That's kind of how it was designed. It was designed for non curlers to listen to. And if you are listening to this and you are a curling fan, I also have a book, it's called Curling Chronicles of the Roaring Game. It is now just came out in the us. It's been out in Canada since the fall, but it just came out in the US and it's also available like ebook, Kindle, all that stuff. And the audiobook is coming out shortly as well.
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B
Did you read it?
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C
I did read it.
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B
Hell yeah.
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C
Yeah. So that was fun. Insane, done that. It's a lot. It's a lot for sure. But it was. Yeah, it was good to do. So those are the two main things. Broomgate and then my book, Curling Rocks.
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A
I'm definitely. I've got a curling scandal lined up for my car journeys this week.
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C
Awesome.
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A
I'm gonna go all in on curling.
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C
I love it.
- [23:07]
A
Next time we talk, John, I'll be teaching you a few things. And one more thing, John, before we all turn in, we like to ask our guests to give a special good night. So kind of set the scene, get comfy, and you can say goodnight to a friend, an enemy, the world, you know, whatever feels right to you.
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C
Oh, geez. How do you say goodnight to an enemy?
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A
Hey, it's entirely up to you. Good night.
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B
It's like a little menace in it.
- [23:38]
C
Oh, I do. I do like that. I do like that. I will say when I say goodnight to my wife because she always falls asleep way before me because she has a real job, I will always. I adjust my good night where if she's working the next day, I say I'll see you tomorrow. But if she's not working the next day, I say I'll see you in the morning. So how about I give both and then whichever one is most appropriate to you at this point.
- [24:07]
B
That's nice. Yeah.
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C
Is that good?
- [24:09]
A
I like that.
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C
Good night everyone. I hope you have a good sleep and I will see you tomorrow. Good night everyone. I hope you have a good sleep. I'll see you in the morning.
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B
Nailed it. Two perfect good nights. Thank you so much for joining us, John. This was really a blast. Your calm and gentle expertise in the face of our rank amateurism has soothed me perfectly into bed. So it's time for me to turn in. Good night, John. Good night, Matt.
- [24:41]
C
Good night, Josh.
- [24:42]
A
Hi, everyone. To learn more about our phone free light and audio experience, head to Hatch Co. You can also follow us at Hatch Podcasts.