Podcast
The Non-Billable Podcast
Hosted by Non-Billable · EN
The Non-Billable Podcast takes UK legal professionals beyond the billable hour, bringing you interviews with top lawyers, law firm leaders, industry experts and legal tech innovators to uncover actionable insights on the business of law, career growth and the future of the industry.
Hosted by Oliver Attinger, a former finance lawyer at a leading City law firm, and brought to you by Non-Billable, the legal media platform for City lawyers, in-house counsel, and legal professionals.
34episodes
Episodes
Newest firstAll episodes
BCLP senior partner Segun Osuntokun on growth, mergers and weekend emails
1w ago00:28:30Tap to summarizeSegun Osuntokun, senior partner at BCLP, joins the podcast to discuss leadership, firm strategy and what it takes to run a global law firm while continuing to practise as a partner. Having held senior leadership roles at the firm for more than seven years, he reflects on BCLP's recent return to growth and the long-term strategy behind it.The conversation explores the lessons learned from the merger between Berwin Leighton Paisner and Bryan Cave, why Osuntokun believes successful integrations must start with clients rather than firm economics, and his views on the current wave of transatlantic law firm combinations reshaping the market.We also discuss mental health, sustainable leadership and the demands of modern legal practice. Osuntokun shares his perspective on resilience, the importance of wellbeing in a people business, and the comments that sparked debate across the profession about sending non-urgent emails at weekends.The Non-Billable Podcast is sponsored by Legora. To find out more about Legora, visit: https://legora.com/ Chapters00:01 Introduction01:36 From Nigeria to City law and becoming BCLP senior partner04:26 BCLP's return to growth and the strategy behind it07:35 How BCLP positions itself in the transatlantic legal market09:12 Lessons from the Bryan Cave and BLP merger13:34 US versus UK law firm culture: more similar than different?15:47 Life as senior partner and balancing leadership with client work18:19 Weekend emails, mental health and sustainable leadership24:01 The future of Big Law, scale and BCLP's growth plansAbout Non-BillableNon-Billable is the media company for modern legal professionals across private practice, in-house and legal tech.Visit our website: https://www.nonbillable.co.uk
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Private equity and the future of law firms | Podcast special
2w ago01:08:28Tap to summarizePrivate equity investment in law firms has become one of the most talked-about trends in the legal industry. But how much is actually happening? Why are investors interested in legal services, and what does outside capital mean for the traditional partnership model?In this special edition of the podcast, Oliver is joined by Patrick Savage (Burford Capital), Peter Jackson (former managing partner of Hill Dickinson), Adil Taha (legal industry consultant), and Oscar Dean (Grant Thornton) for a candid discussion about the future of law firm ownership.The panel explores why legal has become attractive to investors, whether private equity activity has slowed in recent months, what makes a law firm investable, and how external capital can be used to fund growth, technology and talent. They also discuss consolidation, succession planning, the differences between legal and other professional services sectors, and why some investors are becoming more selective about the firms they back.Finally, the conversation turns to the biggest unanswered question in the market: exits. The panel debates whether private equity-backed law firms can deliver the returns investors need, who the eventual buyers might be, and whether outside capital will become a normal feature of the UK legal market over the next decade.The Non-Billable Podcast is sponsored by Legora. To find out more about Legora, visit: https://legora.com/ Today’s episode is also supported by Definely. To find out more about Definely, visit: https://www.definely.com/nonbillable Chapters00:01 Introduction01:30 Introductions & setting the scene04:40 Why investors are bullish on legal services12:55 Why legal is different from accounting and other professional services22:30 Has the private equity boom in law firms stalled?27:30 Why law firms seek outside capital, and what changes afterwards42:40 Talent, AI and the future law firm business model53:50 The exit problem: IPOs, secondary sales and investor returns1:03:50 Advice for law firm leaders and predictions for the futureAbout Non-BillableNon-Billable is the media company for modern legal professionals across private practice, in-house and legal tech.Visit our website: https://www.nonbillable.co.uk
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The business of international arbitration with Boies Schiller’s Tim Foden
3w ago00:36:02Tap to summarizeTim Foden is co-head of the international arbitration group at Boies Schiller Flexner in London. In this episode, he joins the podcast to discuss his path into arbitration, his time at Allen & Overy and Quinn Emanuel, and why he believes specialist disputes firms offer something fundamentally different to full-service law firms.The conversation explores the business of international arbitration, from commercial disputes between companies to high-stakes claims brought by investors against states. Tim explains how investment treaty arbitration works in practice, why resource nationalism continues to drive disputes around the world, and what it is like handling cases involving governments, mining projects and politically sensitive assets.Tim also shares his perspective on litigation funding, pushing back on the idea that funders encourage weak claims. He explains how funding has become a critical tool for many claimants, how funded cases are assessed, and why the UK Supreme Court’s PACCAR decision has had less impact on his practice than many predicted.Finally, we discuss London's position as a global disputes hub, the outlook for arbitration and collective actions, and Boies Schiller Flexner's growth plans in the UK as the firm continues to expand its London disputes practice.The Non-Billable Podcast is sponsored by Legora. To find out more about Legora, visit: https://legora.com/ Today’s episode is also supported by Definely. To find out more about Definely, visit: https://www.definely.com/nonbillable Chapters00:01 Introduction01:34 From courtroom dramas to international arbitration03:10 Allen & Overy, Quinn Emanuel and life at a disputes boutique05:06 Why specialist disputes firms think differently10:48 Joining Boies Schiller and rebuilding the London office16:16 The business of international arbitration and investor-state disputes22:30 Litigation funding, PACCAR and access to justice30:59 Why London remains the world's leading disputes hub33:55 The future of disputes and Boies Schiller's growth plans in LondonAbout Non-BillableNon-Billable is the media company for modern legal professionals across private practice, in-house and legal tech.Visit our website: https://www.nonbillable.co.uk
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Why US firms are still winning the talent battle in London
May 2700:51:13Tap to summarizeHeadhunter Scott Gibson returns to the podcast for a wide-ranging conversation on what’s going on in the London partner market. As co-founder of Edwards Gibson, Scott tracks every major partner move in the City and has one of the clearest views of how the market is moving beneath the surface.We discuss why partner movement remains near record levels despite a tougher economic backdrop, the continued influence of US firms in London, and how areas like private capital, infrastructure and real estate are driving demand. Scott also explains why mergers create far more disruption than firms like to admit, and why that often leads to opportunities elsewhere in the market.The conversation also dives into the changing economics of partnership itself. Scott breaks down the rise of non-equity partnership structures, why UK firms face a “home turf disadvantage” against US rivals, and how compensation systems are evolving as firms compete for rainmakers.We also talk about whether partnership is still as attractive as it once was, what top firms are really looking for when they hire laterals, and why law firms today may be more fragile than many lawyers realise.The Non-Billable Podcast is sponsored by Legora. To find out more about Legora, visit: https://legora.com/ Today’s episode is also supported by Definely. To find out more about Definely, visit: https://www.definely.com/nonbillable Chapters00:01 Introduction02:26 The London partner recruitment market explained04:21 Why partner moves hit record highs in 202508:17 The hottest practice areas in Big Law right now11:37 Will restructuring finally boom in London?14:41 Are Magic Circle firms fighting back against US rivals?21:30 What law firms really want from lateral partner hires27:06 The rise of non-equity partnership in Big Law45:44 Which recent law firm mergers will actually workAbout Non-BillableNon-Billable is the media company for modern legal professionals across private practice, in-house and legal tech.Visit our website: https://www.nonbillable.co.uk
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Inside Lawfront: The PE-backed law firm group betting big on consolidation
May 2000:35:01Tap to summarizeAxel Koelsch, COO of private equity-backed legal group Lawfront, joins the podcast to discuss how outside investment is reshaping the UK legal market and why he believes consolidation is still in its early stages.Koelsch explains how Lawfront’s model works in practice, why the group allows firms to retain their brands and leadership teams, and how central investment in areas like technology, operations and business services is becoming increasingly important as law firms face growing competitive pressure.The conversation also explores what lawyers often misunderstand about private equity, the operational lessons Koelsch brought from senior roles at firms including Freshfields and Addleshaw Goddard, and why the traditional partnership model can struggle to move quickly enough in a rapidly changing market.Finally, Koelsch discusses the future of the sector, including AI, scale, talent and why he expects further consolidation across both the regional and commercial law firm markets in the years ahead.The Non-Billable Podcast is sponsored by Legora. To find out more about Legora, visit: https://legora.com/ Today’s episode is also supported by Definely. To find out more about Definely, visit: https://www.definely.com/nonbillable Chapters00:01 Introduction01:30 Axel’s journey from lawyer to law firm COO03:25 Applying consultant-style strategy inside major law firms07:18 Why Axel joined Lawfront10:38 Inside Lawfront’s “national scale for regional leaders” model14:31 How Lawfront integrates firms without losing culture20:08 The Lawfront growth playbook: recruitment, pricing and EBITDA22:25 Why equity partnership is becoming less attractive to lawyers27:46 Why Axel believes consolidation in UK law is inevitableAbout Non-BillableNon-Billable is the media company for modern legal professionals across private practice, in-house and legal tech.Visit our website: https://www.nonbillable.co.uk
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How private equity is changing the legal market in Sweden
May 1200:29:02Tap to summarizeIn this episode, Maria-Pia Hope - former managing partner of top Swedish law firm Vinge and now CEO of private equity-backed legal group AGRD - explains why she believes the legal market is entering a “paradigm shift” driven by AI, technology and changing client expectations. Backed by Nordic PE firm Axcel, AGRD has already brought together eight Swedish commercial firms and is now one of the country’s largest legal groups.Maria-Pia discusses how the model works in practice, with firms retaining their own brands, clients and day-to-day independence while pooling resources around AI, technology and central functions. The aim, she says, is to help entrepreneurial firms embrace industry change without losing their culture or identity, while also benefiting from faster decision-making and longer-term investment horizons.The conversation also explores how private equity’s role in legal is evolving, with Maria-Pia arguing that modern investors bring expertise, operational support and strategic thinking rather than simply focusing on cost-cutting. She also discusses AGRD’s plans to expand further across the Nordics and eventually into the UK market, where the group sees significant opportunity.The Non-Billable Podcast is sponsored by Legora. To find out more about Legora, visit: https://legora.com/ Today’s episode is also supported by Definely. To find out more about Definely, visit: https://www.definely.com/nonbillable Chapters00:01 Introduction01:30 Leading Sweden’s top law firm Vinge03:50 Why Maria-Pia joined private equity-backed AGRD06:07 Building a group of entrepreneurial commercial law firms08:38 The “Nordic governance model” and preserving firm independence11:15 AGRD’s AI and technology strategy13:00 How private equity-backed law firms operate day-to-day18:00 Leaving the Swedish Bar Association to take PE investment19:50 AGRD’s UK expansion plans and the future of legal consolidationAbout Non-BillableNon-Billable is the media company for modern legal professionals across private practice, in-house and legal tech.Visit our website: https://www.nonbillable.co.uk
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The private wealth opportunity behind Taylor Wessing’s US merger
May 600:30:17Tap to summarizeToday, we unpack the private wealth angle of Taylor Wessing’s merger with Winston & Strawn. Partners Gabriel Estevez and Nick Warr explain how the firm defines private wealth as a holistic, multi-service offering built around high net worth individuals and families, rather than a narrow private client practice.They discuss how the market has evolved, with clients becoming more international and more sophisticated in how they structure and invest their wealth. Today, the vast majority of clients operate across multiple jurisdictions, and the rise of second and third-generation wealth is driving a more institutional approach to decision-making.The conversation also touches on the migration of wealth out of the UK, with hubs like Milan and Dubai gaining traction. While recent tax changes have accelerated the trend, the shift has been underway for years - and for globally positioned firms, it often creates more complex, cross-border work.Finally, they look ahead to the Winston Taylor combination, with private wealth set to be a core pillar of the new firm. The ambition is to build a genuinely integrated US-UK offering - something the market has so far struggled to deliver at scale.The Non-Billable Podcast is sponsored by Legora. To find out more about Legora, visit: https://legora.com/ Today’s episode is also supported by Definely. To find out more about Definely, visit: https://www.definely.com/nonbillable Chapters00:01 Introduction01:30 Private wealth vs private client: what’s the difference?02:54 How the private wealth market has evolved04:37 The rise of international, mobile wealth06:27 Are high net worth individuals really leaving the UK?09:32 What private wealth lawyers actually do day-to-day14:10 How Taylor Wessing positions its private wealth practice20:10 Winning clients in a relationship-driven market23:48 What the Winston Taylor merger means for private wealthAbout Non-BillableNon-Billable is the media company for modern legal professionals across private practice, in-house and legal tech.Visit our website: https://www.nonbillable.co.uk
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A psychologist on why lawyers burn out
Apr 2800:27:23Tap to summarizeIn this episode, Dr Catherine Sykes, a psychologist and coach who works with City lawyers, explains why burnout is so common among high-performing professionals, and why it’s often misunderstood. Drawing on decades of experience, she argues burnout is not simply about long hours, but “constant effort without psychological returns with no end in sight,” where meaning, satisfaction and growth are missing from the work.The conversation explores the psychology of lawyers, particularly the role of perfectionism. Sykes also breaks down the early warning signs of burnout and why the instinctive response to “work harder” can make things worse. Instead, she argues that recovery often requires stepping back and in some cases seeking out new challenges to break out of unfulfilling work patterns.The episode also dives into imposter syndrome. Her core message is that sustainable performance comes from shifting away from perfectionism towards high standards, building self-trust and ensuring work delivers meaningful psychological returns.The Non-Billable Podcast is sponsored by Legora. To find out more about Legora, visit: https://legora.com/ Today’s episode is also supported by Definely. To find out more about Definely, visit: https://www.definely.com/nonbillable Chapters00:01 Introduction02:35 From academia to coaching: specialising in burnout04:37 The psychology of high-performing lawyers07:12 What burnout actually is (and isn’t)10:44 Early warning signs and what to do first13:48 Breaking the burnout cycle and finding balance16:28 Imposter syndrome explained21:19 Perfectionism vs high performance24:30 What peak performance really looks likeAbout Non-BillableNon-Billable is the media company for modern legal professionals across private practice, in-house and legal tech.Visit our website: https://www.nonbillable.co.uk
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The rise of the $30m law firm partner: Inside the US Big Law market
Apr 1400:37:49Tap to summarizeIn this episode, David Nicol, headhunter and co-head of Marsden’s US practice, breaks down the structure of the US legal market and how it has evolved over the past decade.From the dominance of New York as the global dealmaking hub to the distinct identities of markets like California, Texas and Chicago, he explains why the US is far more complex and fragmented than many outside it assume.The conversation explores the rise of firms like Kirkland & Ellis and Latham & Watkins, and how they have reshaped the traditional hierarchy once dominated by Wall Street white shoe firms. We also get into the economics of the top end of the market, including partner pay, the realities of the lateral market and what it takes to attract and retain elite rainmakers. Nicol explains why compensation structures, client demands and platform capabilities all play a role in driving partner moves.Finally, the discussion looks ahead to what could shape the next phase of the US legal market, from the continued growth of private capital and restructuring work to the potential impact of AI on law firm economics and structure.The Non-Billable Podcast is sponsored by Legora. To find out more about Legora, visit: https://legora.com/ Today’s episode is also supported by Definely. To find out more about Definely, visit: https://www.definely.com/nonbillable Chapters00:01 Introduction02:40 Understanding the US legal market structure04:39 Why New York still dominates global Big Law07:07 California, Texas and the rise of regional powerhouses12:30 Boston, Chicago and DC: key secondary markets16:33 Magic Circle firms in the US: what’s working and what’s not23:07 Partner pay and the $30M rainmaker reality28:19 Lateral moves, Wachtell and shifting firm models32:02 Kirkland, AI and what comes next for Big LawAbout Non-BillableNon-Billable is the media company for modern legal professionals across private practice, in-house and legal tech.Visit our website: https://www.nonbillable.co.uk
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How to drive change inside a global law firm: White & Case innovation chief Isabel Parker
Apr 700:28:15Tap to summarizeIsabel Parker, chief innovation officer at White & Case, joins the podcast to talk about what it takes to drive innovation inside a global law firm. A former Freshfields lawyer and Deloitte partner, she shares how her career evolved from practice into leading transformation at one of the world’s largest firms.She explains why innovation isn’t just about technology, even in the age of AI. The real challenge, she says, is time and mindset - getting lawyers to see tools like AI as part of their core role, not something delivered by a separate team. Her goal is to shift ownership of innovation to lawyers themselves.We also get into White & Case’s AI strategy, including the build of its in-house platform Atlas and its broader approach. Parker makes the case for developing internal capability alongside adopting best-in-class tools, particularly in such a fast-moving market.Finally, she shares her views on what will actually differentiate firms going forward - not the tools themselves, but how quickly firms can upskill their people and make better use of their data. And for individual lawyers, the key skill is simple: disciplined curiosity.The Non-Billable Podcast is sponsored by Legora. To find out more about Legora, visit: https://legora.com/ Today’s episode is also supported by Definely. To find out more about Definely, visit: https://www.definely.com/nonbillable Chapters00:01 Introduction02:30 From Freshfields lawyer to innovation leader04:37 Lessons from Deloitte and working closer to clients06:39 What a Chief Innovation Officer actually does08:59 Why time and mindset are the biggest barriers to innovation11:56 Culture, experimentation and the lawyer mindset14:59 White & Case’s AI strategy and building Atlas17:56 Build vs buy vs partner: making the right AI bets23:51 What will differentiate law firms in the AI eraAbout Non-BillableNon-Billable is the media company for modern legal professionals across private practice, in-house and legal tech.Visit our website: https://www.nonbillable.co.uk
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