Podcast
The Non-Billable Podcast
Hosted by Non-Billable · EN
The Non-Billable Podcast takes UK legal professionals beyond the billable hour, bringing you interviews with top lawyers, law firm leaders, industry experts and legal tech innovators to uncover actionable insights on the business of law, career growth and the future of the industry.
Hosted by Oliver Attinger, a former finance lawyer at a leading City law firm, and brought to you by Non-Billable, the legal media platform for City lawyers, in-house counsel, and legal professionals.
31episodes
Episodes
Newest firstAll episodes
Why US firms are still winning the talent battle in London
1w ago00:51:13Tap to summarizeHeadhunter Scott Gibson returns to the podcast for a wide-ranging conversation on what’s going on in the London partner market. As co-founder of Edwards Gibson, Scott tracks every major partner move in the City and has one of the clearest views of how the market is moving beneath the surface.We discuss why partner movement remains near record levels despite a tougher economic backdrop, the continued influence of US firms in London, and how areas like private capital, infrastructure and real estate are driving demand. Scott also explains why mergers create far more disruption than firms like to admit, and why that often leads to opportunities elsewhere in the market.The conversation also dives into the changing economics of partnership itself. Scott breaks down the rise of non-equity partnership structures, why UK firms face a “home turf disadvantage” against US rivals, and how compensation systems are evolving as firms compete for rainmakers.We also talk about whether partnership is still as attractive as it once was, what top firms are really looking for when they hire laterals, and why law firms today may be more fragile than many lawyers realise.The Non-Billable Podcast is sponsored by Legora. To find out more about Legora, visit: https://legora.com/ Today’s episode is also supported by Definely. To find out more about Definely, visit: https://www.definely.com/nonbillable Chapters00:01 Introduction02:26 The London partner recruitment market explained04:21 Why partner moves hit record highs in 202508:17 The hottest practice areas in Big Law right now11:37 Will restructuring finally boom in London?14:41 Are Magic Circle firms fighting back against US rivals?21:30 What law firms really want from lateral partner hires27:06 The rise of non-equity partnership in Big Law45:44 Which recent law firm mergers will actually workAbout Non-BillableNon-Billable is the media company for modern legal professionals across private practice, in-house and legal tech.Visit our website: https://www.nonbillable.co.uk
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Inside Lawfront: The PE-backed law firm group betting big on consolidation
2w ago00:35:01Tap to summarizeAxel Koelsch, COO of private equity-backed legal group Lawfront, joins the podcast to discuss how outside investment is reshaping the UK legal market and why he believes consolidation is still in its early stages.Koelsch explains how Lawfront’s model works in practice, why the group allows firms to retain their brands and leadership teams, and how central investment in areas like technology, operations and business services is becoming increasingly important as law firms face growing competitive pressure.The conversation also explores what lawyers often misunderstand about private equity, the operational lessons Koelsch brought from senior roles at firms including Freshfields and Addleshaw Goddard, and why the traditional partnership model can struggle to move quickly enough in a rapidly changing market.Finally, Koelsch discusses the future of the sector, including AI, scale, talent and why he expects further consolidation across both the regional and commercial law firm markets in the years ahead.The Non-Billable Podcast is sponsored by Legora. To find out more about Legora, visit: https://legora.com/ Today’s episode is also supported by Definely. To find out more about Definely, visit: https://www.definely.com/nonbillable Chapters00:01 Introduction01:30 Axel’s journey from lawyer to law firm COO03:25 Applying consultant-style strategy inside major law firms07:18 Why Axel joined Lawfront10:38 Inside Lawfront’s “national scale for regional leaders” model14:31 How Lawfront integrates firms without losing culture20:08 The Lawfront growth playbook: recruitment, pricing and EBITDA22:25 Why equity partnership is becoming less attractive to lawyers27:46 Why Axel believes consolidation in UK law is inevitableAbout Non-BillableNon-Billable is the media company for modern legal professionals across private practice, in-house and legal tech.Visit our website: https://www.nonbillable.co.uk
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How private equity is changing the legal market in Sweden
3w ago00:29:02Tap to summarizeIn this episode, Maria-Pia Hope - former managing partner of top Swedish law firm Vinge and now CEO of private equity-backed legal group AGRD - explains why she believes the legal market is entering a “paradigm shift” driven by AI, technology and changing client expectations. Backed by Nordic PE firm Axcel, AGRD has already brought together eight Swedish commercial firms and is now one of the country’s largest legal groups.Maria-Pia discusses how the model works in practice, with firms retaining their own brands, clients and day-to-day independence while pooling resources around AI, technology and central functions. The aim, she says, is to help entrepreneurial firms embrace industry change without losing their culture or identity, while also benefiting from faster decision-making and longer-term investment horizons.The conversation also explores how private equity’s role in legal is evolving, with Maria-Pia arguing that modern investors bring expertise, operational support and strategic thinking rather than simply focusing on cost-cutting. She also discusses AGRD’s plans to expand further across the Nordics and eventually into the UK market, where the group sees significant opportunity.The Non-Billable Podcast is sponsored by Legora. To find out more about Legora, visit: https://legora.com/ Today’s episode is also supported by Definely. To find out more about Definely, visit: https://www.definely.com/nonbillable Chapters00:01 Introduction01:30 Leading Sweden’s top law firm Vinge03:50 Why Maria-Pia joined private equity-backed AGRD06:07 Building a group of entrepreneurial commercial law firms08:38 The “Nordic governance model” and preserving firm independence11:15 AGRD’s AI and technology strategy13:00 How private equity-backed law firms operate day-to-day18:00 Leaving the Swedish Bar Association to take PE investment19:50 AGRD’s UK expansion plans and the future of legal consolidationAbout Non-BillableNon-Billable is the media company for modern legal professionals across private practice, in-house and legal tech.Visit our website: https://www.nonbillable.co.uk
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The private wealth opportunity behind Taylor Wessing’s US merger
4w ago00:30:17Tap to summarizeToday, we unpack the private wealth angle of Taylor Wessing’s merger with Winston & Strawn. Partners Gabriel Estevez and Nick Warr explain how the firm defines private wealth as a holistic, multi-service offering built around high net worth individuals and families, rather than a narrow private client practice.They discuss how the market has evolved, with clients becoming more international and more sophisticated in how they structure and invest their wealth. Today, the vast majority of clients operate across multiple jurisdictions, and the rise of second and third-generation wealth is driving a more institutional approach to decision-making.The conversation also touches on the migration of wealth out of the UK, with hubs like Milan and Dubai gaining traction. While recent tax changes have accelerated the trend, the shift has been underway for years - and for globally positioned firms, it often creates more complex, cross-border work.Finally, they look ahead to the Winston Taylor combination, with private wealth set to be a core pillar of the new firm. The ambition is to build a genuinely integrated US-UK offering - something the market has so far struggled to deliver at scale.The Non-Billable Podcast is sponsored by Legora. To find out more about Legora, visit: https://legora.com/ Today’s episode is also supported by Definely. To find out more about Definely, visit: https://www.definely.com/nonbillable Chapters00:01 Introduction01:30 Private wealth vs private client: what’s the difference?02:54 How the private wealth market has evolved04:37 The rise of international, mobile wealth06:27 Are high net worth individuals really leaving the UK?09:32 What private wealth lawyers actually do day-to-day14:10 How Taylor Wessing positions its private wealth practice20:10 Winning clients in a relationship-driven market23:48 What the Winston Taylor merger means for private wealthAbout Non-BillableNon-Billable is the media company for modern legal professionals across private practice, in-house and legal tech.Visit our website: https://www.nonbillable.co.uk
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A psychologist on why lawyers burn out
Apr 2800:27:23Tap to summarizeIn this episode, Dr Catherine Sykes, a psychologist and coach who works with City lawyers, explains why burnout is so common among high-performing professionals, and why it’s often misunderstood. Drawing on decades of experience, she argues burnout is not simply about long hours, but “constant effort without psychological returns with no end in sight,” where meaning, satisfaction and growth are missing from the work.The conversation explores the psychology of lawyers, particularly the role of perfectionism. Sykes also breaks down the early warning signs of burnout and why the instinctive response to “work harder” can make things worse. Instead, she argues that recovery often requires stepping back and in some cases seeking out new challenges to break out of unfulfilling work patterns.The episode also dives into imposter syndrome. Her core message is that sustainable performance comes from shifting away from perfectionism towards high standards, building self-trust and ensuring work delivers meaningful psychological returns.The Non-Billable Podcast is sponsored by Legora. To find out more about Legora, visit: https://legora.com/ Today’s episode is also supported by Definely. To find out more about Definely, visit: https://www.definely.com/nonbillable Chapters00:01 Introduction02:35 From academia to coaching: specialising in burnout04:37 The psychology of high-performing lawyers07:12 What burnout actually is (and isn’t)10:44 Early warning signs and what to do first13:48 Breaking the burnout cycle and finding balance16:28 Imposter syndrome explained21:19 Perfectionism vs high performance24:30 What peak performance really looks likeAbout Non-BillableNon-Billable is the media company for modern legal professionals across private practice, in-house and legal tech.Visit our website: https://www.nonbillable.co.uk
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The rise of the $30m law firm partner: Inside the US Big Law market
Apr 1400:37:49Tap to summarizeIn this episode, David Nicol, headhunter and co-head of Marsden’s US practice, breaks down the structure of the US legal market and how it has evolved over the past decade.From the dominance of New York as the global dealmaking hub to the distinct identities of markets like California, Texas and Chicago, he explains why the US is far more complex and fragmented than many outside it assume.The conversation explores the rise of firms like Kirkland & Ellis and Latham & Watkins, and how they have reshaped the traditional hierarchy once dominated by Wall Street white shoe firms. We also get into the economics of the top end of the market, including partner pay, the realities of the lateral market and what it takes to attract and retain elite rainmakers. Nicol explains why compensation structures, client demands and platform capabilities all play a role in driving partner moves.Finally, the discussion looks ahead to what could shape the next phase of the US legal market, from the continued growth of private capital and restructuring work to the potential impact of AI on law firm economics and structure.The Non-Billable Podcast is sponsored by Legora. To find out more about Legora, visit: https://legora.com/ Today’s episode is also supported by Definely. To find out more about Definely, visit: https://www.definely.com/nonbillable Chapters00:01 Introduction02:40 Understanding the US legal market structure04:39 Why New York still dominates global Big Law07:07 California, Texas and the rise of regional powerhouses12:30 Boston, Chicago and DC: key secondary markets16:33 Magic Circle firms in the US: what’s working and what’s not23:07 Partner pay and the $30M rainmaker reality28:19 Lateral moves, Wachtell and shifting firm models32:02 Kirkland, AI and what comes next for Big LawAbout Non-BillableNon-Billable is the media company for modern legal professionals across private practice, in-house and legal tech.Visit our website: https://www.nonbillable.co.uk
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How to drive change inside a global law firm: White & Case innovation chief Isabel Parker
Apr 700:28:15Tap to summarizeIsabel Parker, chief innovation officer at White & Case, joins the podcast to talk about what it takes to drive innovation inside a global law firm. A former Freshfields lawyer and Deloitte partner, she shares how her career evolved from practice into leading transformation at one of the world’s largest firms.She explains why innovation isn’t just about technology, even in the age of AI. The real challenge, she says, is time and mindset - getting lawyers to see tools like AI as part of their core role, not something delivered by a separate team. Her goal is to shift ownership of innovation to lawyers themselves.We also get into White & Case’s AI strategy, including the build of its in-house platform Atlas and its broader approach. Parker makes the case for developing internal capability alongside adopting best-in-class tools, particularly in such a fast-moving market.Finally, she shares her views on what will actually differentiate firms going forward - not the tools themselves, but how quickly firms can upskill their people and make better use of their data. And for individual lawyers, the key skill is simple: disciplined curiosity.The Non-Billable Podcast is sponsored by Legora. To find out more about Legora, visit: https://legora.com/ Today’s episode is also supported by Definely. To find out more about Definely, visit: https://www.definely.com/nonbillable Chapters00:01 Introduction02:30 From Freshfields lawyer to innovation leader04:37 Lessons from Deloitte and working closer to clients06:39 What a Chief Innovation Officer actually does08:59 Why time and mindset are the biggest barriers to innovation11:56 Culture, experimentation and the lawyer mindset14:59 White & Case’s AI strategy and building Atlas17:56 Build vs buy vs partner: making the right AI bets23:51 What will differentiate law firms in the AI eraAbout Non-BillableNon-Billable is the media company for modern legal professionals across private practice, in-house and legal tech.Visit our website: https://www.nonbillable.co.uk
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How Broadfield is rethinking the mid-market law firm model
Mar 3100:29:11Tap to summarizeJohn Hutchinson, managing partner of top 100 law firm Broadfield, joins the podcast to discuss the firm’s transformation from BDB Pitmans into a tech-enabled, internationally focused mid-market player. He explains the thinking behind the rebrand and the partnership with SHP, a subsidiary of Alvarez & Marsal, designed to support investment in technology, talent and global expansion.He outlines how that relationship works in practice, with Broadfield remaining independent but gaining access to infrastructure, strategic insight and tools like Harvey. The goal is to build a more integrated, end-to-end platform for delivering legal services, while improving efficiency and client value.Hutchinson also shares his perspective on private equity in law, arguing it works for some firms but isn’t the only model. Broadfield is instead focused on long-term growth, international reach and more "sensible pricing", moving beyond simply increasing hourly rates.Looking ahead, the firm is targeting expansion across Europe and the the Middle East, with a focus on private capital and cross-border work. Hutchinson says success in today’s market will come down to combining technology, talent and a clear value proposition for clients.The Non-Billable Podcast is sponsored by Legora. To find out more about Legora, visit: https://legora.com/ Today’s episode is also supported by Definely. To find out more about Definely, visit: https://www.definely.com/nonbillable Chapters00:01 Introduction02:40 From BDB Pitmans to Broadfield: the rebrand and strategy shift06:18 The Alvarez & Marsal connection and tech-driven model09:55 Private equity in law firms: opportunity and limits14:12 Building an international platform: US, Hong Kong and beyond17:43 The mid-market squeeze and rethinking pricing models22:09 AI, Harvey and the impact on law firm economics24:21 Leadership, culture and managing rapid change27:25 Hiring strategy and attracting the next generation of partnersAbout Non-BillableNon-Billable is the media company for modern legal professionals across private practice, in-house and legal tech.Visit our website: https://www.nonbillable.co.uk
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How AI-powered Lawhive plans to build a global consumer law firm
Mar 2400:31:34Tap to summarizePierre Proner is the CEO and co-founder of Lawhive. He joins the podcast to explain how his company is combining AI with a regulated law firm model to rethink consumer legal services. He shares how Lawhive pivoted from initially offering software to law firms, driven by a mission to improve access to legal help and reduce the inefficiencies in how consumer law is delivered.He discusses why selling software to traditional firms only went so far, with resistance tied to billable hours and legacy models. That led Lawhive to become a law firm itself, building an end-to-end AI operating system that supports everything from client intake to drafting and back-office work, with lawyers staying firmly “in the loop”.The episode also breaks down how the model works across markets. In the UK, Lawhive uses a consultancy-style platform, while in the US it operates through an Arizona ABS and a co-counsel network. Proner says the tech can significantly increase lawyer productivity and earnings by reducing non-billable work.Finally, he talks about growth. With over $100 million raised, Lawhive is now focused on scaling in the US through expansion and acquisitions, aiming to build a global consumer law firm powered by AI.The Non-Billable Podcast is sponsored by Legora. To find out more about Legora, visit: https://legora.com/ Today’s episode is also supported by Definely. To find out more about Definely, visit: https://www.definely.com/nonbillable Chapters00:01 Introduction01:20 From fintech to legal tech: the origin of Lawhive03:41 Building an AI operating system for consumer law06:19 Why selling software to law firms wasn’t enough07:47 Becoming a regulated law firm and changing the model10:03 Inside the Lawhive platform: AI across the full workflow13:05 Productivity gains, margins and lawyer economics17:05 UK vs US: consultancy model and co-counsel expansion21:06 Funding, US growth and the ambition to build a global consumer law firmAbout Non-BillableNon-Billable is the media company for modern legal professionals across private practice, in-house and legal tech.Visit our website: https://www.nonbillable.co.uk
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Inside Ropes & Gray's Europe strategy: Private capital, Milan and an all-equity partnership
Mar 1700:29:14Tap to summarizeRopes & Gray has been quietly rolling out one of the most ambitious European growth strategies among US firms in London. In this episode, London managing partner Rohan Massey and antitrust partner Ruchit Patel, who also sits on the firm’s governing policy committee, join the show to discuss how the firm has grown its London office from a two-partner launch in 2010 into a 250-person hub.We talk about the firm’s push across Europe, including the recent launches in Paris and Milan, and why Ropes sees London as the centre of a broader European platform. Patel explains how the strategy is driven primarily by client demand - particularly from private capital clients - and why the firm has chosen to build a single integrated European platform rather than operate offices as separate profit centres.The conversation also explores the competitive dynamics of the London market, where US firms have dramatically expanded over the past decade. Massey and Patel discuss how Ropes thinks about talent, lateral hiring and institutionalising client relationships, including why the firm emphasises collaboration across offices and practice groups.Finally, we get into one of the firm’s more unusual strategic choices: sticking with a single-tier, all-equity partnership while much of the legal industry moves towards multi-tier structures. The Non-Billable Podcast is sponsored by Legora. To find out more about Legora, visit: https://legora.com/ Today’s episode is also supported by Definely. To find out more about Definely, visit: https://www.definely.com/nonbillable Chapters00:01 Introduction 01:44 The origins and growth of Ropes & Gray’s London office04:31 The rise of US law firms in London05:43 Ropes & Gray’s European private capital strategy09:57 Paris and Milan: the firm’s newest growth engines11:30 Why Ropes believes collaboration is its competitive edge14:45 Talent, lateral hiring and building the partnership17:47 Institutionalising client relationships across the firm20:08 Why Ropes is sticking with a single-tier equity partnershipAbout Non-BillableNon-Billable is the media company for modern legal professionals across private practice, in-house and legal tech.Visit our website: https://www.nonbillable.co.uk
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