A (5:26)

Yeah, I love that because that's also a part of healing, is being in community and getting to be together. I think that's really beautiful, the way that ties in with each other. And I really resonate with so much of your story. I grew up outside of New York City in Connecticut, but I, you know, New York pizza is one of the things I miss the most from being gluten free. And I was diagnosed with Hashimoto's just maybe two And a half or almost three years ago. But I was always the person who, oh, I could eat anything. I don't have those sensitivities. And then to be diagnosed and realize that in order to really maintain my health, I need to switch my diet. I mean, I always ate healthy. I like to eat healthy food. But, yeah, gluten was a part of. I loved cheese. So, yeah, that was a big shift. And it was a big shift on so many levels. Cause our food affects all the different parts of us. Our identity, our ego. There's so much involved with it. And so, yeah, I really relate to your story. So in that vein, can you talk about inclusive eating, what it is? And I feel like it's a central theme to your cookbook. So can you discuss that with us?

B (6:38)

Yeah. And, you know, I love that term. Sometimes I wonder if people get confused because that word is used in other contexts. So maybe I have to start to shift it, like dietary inclusivity. I don't know. Years since I published the book and while I was writing it, but mostly now that it's out in the wild, it's really kind of like a metaphor almost. I think includes my idea of inclusive eating, or, you know, that idea is out there in the world. But what I believe it to be is just making space for people at your table that have differences than you in this. It's dietary differences. But the world is a crazy place right now. I think a lot of people have different ideas about things and are becoming more and more divided and isolated and separated, and it's a shame. And I think. I think that we can. And we should try to keep people in our lives and at our table that have differences from us, you know, within reason. Obviously, if something is abusive or just whatever. I understand that there's exceptions to that idea. But I think that food is love. We all know that. You know, like, cook. Cook from the heart. That's how I feel. I cook from the heart. I season from the heart. I don't use recipes that often, to be honest, which we can talk about later. But I think if you really are someone who loves to cook and host, you know, because there's different layers of that. Like, some people like it, but, you know, it can be a bit of a chore or frustrating. Some people are just overwhelmed by the whole thing. But when I talk to someone who is enthusiastic about home cooking and hosting and cooking for the people that they love, they want to know what your preferences are. It's like watching someone open a present. I get Joy, when I watch somebody really enjoy eating what I've made them. And if. If you're accommodating somebody, you're really telling them, I see you, I care, and I made this for you. And isn't that nice that I thought about it? That doesn't mean we have to become short order cooks and jump through hoops, but I do think that it's not that difficult to accommodate people. And I think once you kind of learn a few tips and tricks, it's quite easy. I think it's important to be together. I think it's important to share meals together where we, you know, share our stories and our. Make our memories. And I just think it's very healing. I've read a few articles about this, that it actually improves your hormones when you eat in community. I think it's what humans are designed to do. Yeah, Yeah.

A (9:22)

I love that. And I love. I absolutely love. I don't know if it's a metaphor because it's actually just what happens, but the putting aside our differences and just being together just as we are and accepting each other's differences. And I feel like, yeah, the dietary stuff is such a metaphor for that, and that's really beautiful. And I find that in my life with family members that maybe have different political or social outlooks as me and who also maybe have different dietary things, but the ways that we can come together over good food and enjoy food together and find the places where we bridge and where we share interests and share love instead of focusing on the differences. I think that's so lovely. Yeah.

B (10:09)

Yeah. I think, unfortunately, I agree with you, and I think social media is the culprit. I think that we are just getting, you know, the algorithm is feeding us our opinions and our things so that we are just kind of like. Yeah. And there's like maybe 100 teams out there and you got to pick your team and then that's the. You're on. And, you know, I don't want to be surrounded by people that agree with every single thing I say.

A (10:31)

And it's totally.

B (10:33)

It's so boring. I would much rather learn and talk and have a little curiosity and, you know, I don't know, it's more dynamic to be in community with all kinds of people in different walks of life and belief systems and ways of eating. Yeah, that's life. That. I mean, that's, that's, that's what we're supposed to be doing. I don't, I don't really know what else we're supposed to be doing.

A (10:53)

Right. It's like diversity, right? It's like having a more diverse community.

B (10:58)

Right. The microbiome is supposed to be diverse. I mean, I feel like that's what makes life interesting.

A (11:04)

Yeah, I agree. I'm on team diversity. Team Interesting team. Like, let's like, just give each other a break and be kinder to each other.

B (11:14)

Eat that, then don't eat it. Here's another thing. Like, yeah, yeah.

A (11:18)

Well, I love your cookbook. It's such a moment of synchronicity. I went to the library for something else completely. I was walking out and there was a display of cookbooks, and your cookbook was there on display. And the COVID caught me. The name Kitchen Commune caught me. And I started looking through and I was like, oh, my God, this cookbook is amazing. And I took it home and I literally have been obsessed with it the past few weeks. I've made a ton of recipes.

B (11:49)

Nice to hear.

A (11:50)

Yeah, I know. It's always nice to have that reflected back. Everything I've made is so good, and my family has just loved it. My partner, my son have just been like, oh, my God, it's so good. And it's pretty simple. And I also really appreciate what you write about in it. Reading the things that you were writing about, I was like, I need to reach out to this person and see if they'll come on the podcast. And so I'm so glad that.

B (12:18)

Yeah, glad you did. I love, I love talking. I love sharing information. I love. I love this. I love conversations. So.

A (12:24)

Me too. Me too. And one of the things I really love about your cookbook, because I'm an ayurvedic health consultant and also an herbalist. So the dishes you make in your cookbook, they're delicious and they don't have the allergens, but doesn't stop there. It's also, you use a lot of herbs and spices. There's a lot of sauces, a lot of ghee. A lot of ghee. Yes, I know. I love that. I was like, ooh, she uses ghee. This is awesome.

B (12:52)

Folks. You know, I thought maybe, yeah, the.

A (12:54)

Ghee and the cilantro chutney and there's so much in there. So I just love that the food is healing. It's healing food. You can eat gluten free and eat all the processed gluten free things and be gluten free and you're avoiding that allergen. But there's a difference between that and actually really adding the nutrition and the healing. So can you Talk a little bit about the role food can play in self healing.

B (13:21)

Oh my gosh, I have so much to say on that. Food is really the only thing you're putting in your mouth multiple times a day, all day long, every day for your entire life, right? So you think about like when you take medication, right? Let's say you pop a pill, it dissolves, it goes in, it does what it needs to do. Well, your food is doing exactly the same thing. You're chewing it, swallowing it, it's dissolving. And it's either it's going to do one of two things, and I think Dr. Mark Hyman said it best, something along the lines like it's either going to completely disregulate your system or it's going to nourish you and heal you and give your body and your systems all the things it needs to do its job of detoxification and regeneration and all the things. So I think that we have an enormous opportunity to nourish ourselves in the way that our body needs to be nourished by using it as a tool. That's what I did. It was my primary tool for healing. I've worked with lots of different doctors, all of them functional in some way or another. And I've had infections and I've had to use herbs and whatnot. I've never taken antibiotics for Lyme. I don't take any medication for my thyroid. So I live pharmaceutically free lifestyle. But I very intentionally and I supplement very intentionally. I get blood work done regularly and I eat in a way that helps to heal my gut because most of us know autoimmune disease is rooted in the gut. So food is just an enormous tool I think that we can use at home to heal our bodies. And yes, the gluten free thing. And it's not only the gluten free thing for me, it's also the whole vegan versus cow debate and all of this I'm certainly not looking to fight like at all. I'm really not. I just like to explore this idea. If you're eating industrialized corn, soy and wheat and all these vegan grains, but they're industrialized, they're full of pesticides and chemicals and glyphosate and GMOs and all the things that are really, I think, at the root of a lot of our gut problems, not to mention that they're terrible for the planet, how is that better than someone who might be eating regeneratively grown animal products, which is healing and amending the soil, the environment that the animal is, the conditions that the animals are in are better. Their meat is completely different. It's full of Omega threes instead of sixes. The humans that are working there are happier. It's an ecosystem, it's how you fix things. So it's not really about I'm better and you're better because I'm vegan or you eat meat or whatever and being vegan is totally fine. But it's still important if you're only eating vegan, that you're sourcing your ingredients from places that are practicing in a way that's helping the planet and that the actual thing that you're ingesting isn't laden with garbage. So, so there's that. And in my book, I really don't even use grains, let alone gluten. There's a way to prepare rice in there because obviously for people that are vegan, if you do want to have those things, I offer a way to handle those ingredients. But I'm looking more towards whole foods and nutrient dense foods. So like a gluten free croissant, of course, it's lovely. And I'm not saying don't have a croissant. And they are out there, by the way. They're not a lot, but there are a few that are pretty good. It's not about not enjoying those things once in a while, but you can have a gluten free diet and you're eating processed flour and baked goods and packaged pastas and things all the time. And it might help your allergy, as you said, but you should be looking more towards nutrient dense whole foods. I think if you're really looking to like restore your system. That was a very long answer.

A (17:29)

But I love it. I love it. Yeah. And I love the point that you made about the relationship with our food, where we're getting our food. I think that's really huge. Being in right relationship, that makes a difference. I know that there's certain things that are cost prohibitive, but shopping at a farmer's market, getting a csa, doing things like that, where you're actually being in connection with the people who are growing the food, just like you said, it helps the earth. But I think there's something also healing to us in that when we're in right relationship with the ways that we're.

B (18:06)

Getting our food, any upgrade, you know, it does not being perfect, it's just about being more conscious and becoming aware. You know, even if you make 20 or 30% better choices than you did, the Day before. That's good. If everybody does that, it all adds up. And I wish people focused less on again, picking a side of what kind of an eater they are, but came together more of wherever you're eating. Try to source those things from responsible places.

A (18:33)

Exactly, yeah. And I think along with that, I think we've been touching on this, but the idea that the way that our diets can separate us and I mean, I just think about my own life. I was a vegetarian from when I was 19. I was really into yoga and things. I was a vegetarian from then until I was in my early 30s. And what happened for me was throughout my 20s, I was self righteous in that mode of like, I need to be a vegetarian, it's healthier, whatever. I was on my little soapbox around it. And then I started noticing that when I was around friends that were making chicken soup or something like that, I was like, wow. Yeah. I'm like, my body is craving that. And so I had to examine for myself, why am I still a vegetarian? When I first started, there wasn't as many choices for ethically raised meat. So that there was that part of it. But by the time I was in my early 30s, there were a lot of farms. There's ways to get ethically raised meat. So I'm like, why am I actually doing this? Is this actually the best thing for my body? And there's that ego attached to it. I really realized that I was totally in the food ego of I really identified who would I be if I'm not a vegetarian. And it was this big process of me deconstructing that and starting to eat meat. And I actually got so much healthier when I started to eat meat. And it was just this beautiful humbling of my food ego. In my more recent years, it's almost been like this opposite thing of then I went through this phase of I can eat anything and now I'm like, oh, I actually for my health need to limit these things. So it's this other food ego of. It's almost like it hits my people pleaser self of, oh, don't, I'll just eat that. Oh, don't worry about it. I don't want you have to do anything extra. I don't, don't, don't worry about it. Something I'm working on right now is not being apologetic for the way that I'm eating. So it's been this journey. But can you speak a little bit to the food ego and just whatever else you want to riff off of.

B (20:43)

I mean, everything you said, I'm like, yeah, well, first of all, there's so many things you said. I almost wish I had notepad. Because I think we eat differently all throughout our lives. I think, as you know, your bodies change. And I think women, I mean, of course men, we both experience this, but I think different needs, right? But I think that even as a young child, like, ew, I don't want that. And then five years later, they're like, okay, I'm ready to taste that vegetable or that weird ingredient. I think there's an intuition that we have. I also was vegan when we lived in Los Angeles. Of course, for 12 years, I gave being vegan a good, hearty try. I really tried. And I think that there were aspects of it that. But in the end, I was just gassed. I needed the iron, I needed the B vitamins. It ended up not being. And then when I've learned so much more about my thyroid and autoimmune disease, I mean, I. I lean in hard to clean animal proteins. I really do. And I think I would be quite sick without them, to be honest. Actually, I know that I would be. But I think we change over time, and we go through these seasons and we have these intuitions and we have these cravings and that those are things to pay attention to and that you have to remember when you were talking about, you know, I tried on being vegan, I feel like you're eating from your mind. You're not eating your body, and then you're around chicken soup, and your body's like. And your mind is like, no, I'm vegetarian. But your body's, like, salivating, right? So, yeah, those are important things to pay attention to. The food ego, the people pleasing. So real. Such a part of the journey when you are really taking responsibility for yourself and your health and you have to stand up for yourself and make choices that are usually in the minority. I would say for the most part, I'm that person at the table or out with friends, with the waiter. And I used to be. When you said people pleasing, it makes me want to ask you about your childhood, but we can talk about that. The people that have that problem have more complicated. Maybe family struck things going on too, because there are people out there that are just like, nope, I don't eat that. And they're not feeling guilty or bad. And I'm always like, man, you're awesome. You know? But, yeah, the food ego. I identified as a proud omnivore. I realized I eat everything and If I'm gonna be really honest, I think that there was something about being cool wrapped up in that. Like, I'm cool. I'll go down to, you know, Chinatown and eat tripe and weird things because I have a very wide open palate and I'm not afraid of funny things and. And not that I had to necessarily give those things up, but when I started to say no to things, I noticed the way the reactions of the people around me were and that. And there's a spectrum there. There's the people that roll their eyes, that just think you're annoying. Some people doing it to be cool. And it's like, if I could eat bread, I would. I'm gonna be perfect. I absolutely would. And I actually, I can eat bread. I choose not to because it. My body does not like it. But so there's those people. Then there's the people that feel like you're maybe silently judging them because you're eating better than they are. And it's like, no, I got really sick. And, you know, I think food is just a very emotional trigger for everybody. Janine Roth, do you know who she is? She is amazing. She had an eating disorder back in the 70s, I believe, and then healed herself and then has been teaching people and written many books about this topic, about healing eating disorders, but also just unpacking the whole food thing. And one of her quotes is, your whole world is on your plate. World is on your plate. How you dish yourself up at a buffet. The way you choose to put the food on your plate, how much you put. Do you eat without chewing? Do you eat putting your knife and fork down in between every bite? Everything. It's this reflection of your inner world, basically. I think food is historical, it's economical. It's all the things, right? You're gonna go to someone's house and say, sorry, I'm gluten free and I don't eat eggs. And they're like, but this is my grandmother's birthday cake. It's a 60 year recipe. People feel like you're being a pain in the ass. There's all the things, so. But I think also when you get to be almost 50, me too, you kind of are like, yeah, sorry. Not gonna hurt myself for a five minute mouth experience. Like, Right.

A (25:45)

Yeah. I think that's a part of growth too, is to. Yeah, exactly. And I'm okay in myself as I am. I don't need to impress anybody. I don't need to be any different. This is what we're. I know that I'm not trying to be cool. I know that I'm not judging anybody else for the way that they're eating. And so settling more into that has been the work. So one of the things I love in your cookbook that really stuck out to me is talking about eating foods that you love, that love you back. And I love this concept so much because that's what I'm doing. I'm eating the food that is going to love my body, the food that I enjoy it. There's a relationship, it makes me feel good and it's giving my body love because it's not hurting it in any way.

B (26:41)

I miss you. I, I agree 100%. Yeah, it's not. I've reached a point where I'm not going to eat something that I know is going to hurt my body. And, you know, I've definitely developed some tactics. If I go to someone's house that I've never met before, I don't want to put them out if they've gone to the trouble or whatnot. So what I typically do, especially if I'm heading out into the wild unknown, like if I'm going somewhere, if it's a restaurant, I can look it up in advance, I can see what there is and I can plan accordingly. You know, if I'm starving and there's nothing there for me, or if I'm going to someone's house who I don't know, to be perfectly honest, I'll eat before so that I don't end up in a place very, very hungry, when I'm more likely to make poor decisions because I like to eat when I sit down, I want a nice big plate that I love that I can enjoy. And if I don't know that that's going to happen for me, I will definitely take care of that before I go out. So that, that's again, to me, that's my responsibility. I do have special needs that, and I know that not a lot of people are on board with this or even aware of it yet. So it's up to me. I had this health coach once, Unique Hammond. She does bean protocol. She says she brings her health with her everywhere she goes. No excuses. Like her house. And one of the things she grabbed before she left, besides her dog and some clothing, was fiber and some beans. Because she's like, I'm going to end up at a friend's house and this is not going to be an excuse for me. She healed herself from a debilitating life threatening condition. Crohn's disease and coach and helps people now. And she is devoted to her health practice. And so I kind of feel that way at this point. I'm going to make sure that I need to do everything I can to bring my health with me wherever I go.

A (28:31)

Yeah, I agree. Yeah. And so we've touched on this a few different ways, but I don't know if there's anything more that you want to share around just the importance of sharing meals together. Because your book is titled the Kitchen Commune. There's community in the. In the title. So if you want to talk a bit more about sharing meals and community and. Yeah. Why that's important.

B (28:53)

Yeah. Again, I just think that for me growing up, that was, you know, food culture. It was so strong in my family. All of my best memories are in South Africa and Cape Town. So my parents are from Cape Town. They came over to the United states in the 70s. My dad is a musician and went to Berkeley Music School in Boston. And I was born there when him and my mom were like hippies. And then when he graduated, we moved to New York City when I was 2 years old. And so every year, though, for Christmas we would go back to Cape Town because both sets of grandparents were there. All my aunts and uncles and cousins, like my entire family was there. So every year we would go back to Cape Town for Christmas. And it was just both grandmothers always cooking in the kitchen. Big meals all the time, everything, you know, salad dressings made from scratch. They weren't necessarily bakers, actually, now that I think of it, I don't remember really any bread baking in the oven, but there was always meat and vegetables and laughing and lots of smoking and wine drinking things. But there was just this beautiful big table with food all the time and my cousins and I had to do the dishes and it was just like, that's. To me, that's my favorite thing. That's like the only thing I want to do all the time is just eat and make food with people I love and wash dishes, play music, have a dance party in the kitchen, have a cup of tea and go to bed by 9:30. I'm good. So I just feel like if I can facilitate it and make it easier for someone to sit down at my table and share a meal with me, I'm happy to do that. And I just think. I just think it's so important for us to eat together. It just feels. It's just. It's just how you share your love and make your memories with your favorite People.

A (30:40)

I love that. Yeah. Yeah. And so I know this may be a hard question, but is there a recipe from your cookbook that is your favorite? I'm just curious, not actually hard.

B (30:53)

Well, there's two. I mean, I love them all. I actually really, really do. And it's really the food that I eat. I'm going to write more, but I wanted to give people a good foundation, like sauces, salad dressings, how to prepare meat, fish and chicken, how to have a couple of things in there for the holidays. I wanted it to feel easy and not complicated. I want it to be universal. Everything in there is for people with allergies, but a lot of it is familiar, which was intentional and really is stealthy. Like, the idea is that when you're sitting down to eat with me, you're not going to notice that this meal is special. You're just going to be like, it's roast chicken with vegetables and salad. Yes. There happens to be no gluten or dairy in it. And if there is, I will often, if there's someone at my table that it's that kind of food, I will buy beautiful loaves of bread and cheese and put them on the side. And so my favorite recipe, speaking of bread, is the grain free vegan. I tested that months and months. I tested that recipe, I'm not kidding, like 75 times.

A (32:02)

Wow.

B (32:03)

It's my favorite. I love it. And then the caper current relish, which is a sauce in the.

A (32:10)

Yum. Yeah. Yeah. That's one of the things I really love about the cookbook. And when I took out from the library, I was pretty quickly like, oh, I need to buy this cookbook. Because there's so many things that are just staples in it and there's so many ways that you can put different things together that there's all of these base things and then you can get really creative depending on what you have on hand or what your preferences are, to put them together in different ways. Ways. And I just love that it feels like a very essential cookbook for people who have allergies to have.

B (32:45)

You got it. That was the point.

A (32:47)

Yeah. Yeah, it's. It's awesome. Yeah. So you're also an integrative nutrition.

B (32:55)

So, yeah, I'm a certified integrative nutrition health coach. Iin. I don't work with people one on one. I used to. I did that for like a year and a half after I graduated. And I soon discovered I'm much more of a creative person than working one on one with somebody. I would Prefer to work with my like work recipe, developing in my kitchen and then sharing the recipes with people and then letting them take them and do it that way. I just prefer to be more creative than work with people one on one. But I am going to start teaching. I taught my first class the other night which was amazing and I'm renovating a space. There's a cool house on our property and there is a small kitchen in there that I'm renovating and turning it into a kitchen studio. And I like teaching. I'd rather help coach in more of a group mindset than a one on one situation. Again, I like community.

A (33:53)

Yeah.

B (33:54)

Idea of being with a group, demonstrating, eating together and being able to have the conversation. Because I think again, when we hear other people talk and share their stories, we don't feel alone. I felt so alone on my health journey for so long because a lot of my conditions have, you know, invisible symptoms to the outside eye and people will look at you and go, but you look fine. And I'm like, really? Because I feel suicidal or depressed or I have no energy or whatever the thing is. And I think it's so important to share our stories so that we're not by ourselves.

A (34:33)

I agree. Will you be offering things online as well when you're teaching?

B (34:39)

I'm. This is all now, sort of. This year is going to be about at the end of last year. I'm like, okay, cookbooks had a year out in the world. I need another project. I'm not just producing recipes for Instagram. It feels so empty and like, like it doesn't belong to me or something. So I wanted another project and I, I do think I'm going to write another cookbook. But teaching feels like a good next step because growing my audience on Instagram is one thing, but actually connecting with like growing an audience that's IRL is more rewarding and it's what I'm craving. I want to find a community. I want to find my community and have a lot more of that being versatile.

A (35:24)

So I love that. I resonate. Yeah. Yeah.

B (35:29)

So yes, I have a part time assistant. I met with her yesterday. This space should be ready to go by April. I could probably have my first class in there. And so we were talking about how to maybe broadcast it online or offer something online because I did a few talk shop lives online and that was great. I definitely think that there's, there's something there about with this and I just don't know the form yet, but awesome. Always direct message me and Ask questions. I love connecting. So great.

A (35:58)

Yeah, yeah. I'll have all of your information in the show notes. If people want to connect to you. Well, to close, if you're willing, I would love for you to be. To give listeners a small action step that they can take into their world.

B (36:13)

Implemented in their life on a daily basis. And it's at the root of my success with my healing journey is to bring in more curiosity. Curiosity for your body, curiosity for the people in your life. I think that if you, if your body is speaking loudly to you and it is telling you that it is unhappy and it is sore and it is suffering, that of course, you know, you go to the doctor and do what you have to do. But I was put on medication right away and that soon became clear that that was not going to work for me. And it was my curiosity that has led me right to this moment. I have known nothing. I ask questions, I find people. I find people that have the people that have the answers. I won't stop until I get to something that's like, that feels right, that feels like a good next step. And I think it's important, I think it's how you make space for people at your table too. Like, oh, you don't like to eat that. Okay, what do you eat? Oh, instead of like, oh, you're annoying or like, you know, maybe, maybe get curious. Maybe you'll learn something more deeply about that person that will give you compassion. Or, or maybe it will put you in a situation where you have to learn a whole new recipe that takes you out of. Maybe you're a great cook, but you've never cooked gluten free food or baked anything like that. And that curiosity could lead you to like a whole another door opening in your kitchen. Just think, I think we could use more of it.

A (37:58)

Yeah, I agree.

B (38:01)

More curious.

A (38:03)

Yes.

B (38:04)

Want something a little more concrete? Drink more water.

A (38:07)

Yeah, that's a good one.

B (38:09)

Drink half your body weight in ounces of water a day.

A (38:13)

Yeah. Awesome. Those are both, both really good ones. Thank you so much. I so enjoyed this conversation. It's so lovely to connect with you.

B (38:23)

Me too.

A (38:24)

Yeah. And yeah, if you, if you publish another book and want to come back on your own, always welcome.

B (38:32)

I will definitely keep you posted.

A (38:39)

Hi, it's me again. Thanks for listening to that conversation and I'll have all of Shay's information in the show notes in case you want to connect with her or find her cookbook. And I hope that you have a really, really wonderful week. Hey there. Thanks again. For listening. I want to let you know about a couple of resources that I'm offering if you're interested in going a little deeper. I have a deep breath meditation as well as a Nourished for Resilience workbook. There'll be links in the show notes if you're interested in checking them out. And I'm also currently offering offering one on one coaching around nervous system health, self care resilience. I like to weave in Ayurveda herbs, somatics if it makes sense, as well as Ayurvedic consultations. So if you're interested in seeing if we're a good fit, I have a schedule for booking an exploratory call in the show notes. Hope to connect with you soon. Have a great week.