Conversion

Summary

The Oath: Episode "Conversion" - A Deep Dive into Conversion Therapy and Medical Ethics

Released on April 30, 2025

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Introduction

In the gripping fourth episode of The Oath, titled "Conversion," TVO delves into the contentious and emotionally charged subject of conversion therapy within the medical profession. This episode scrutinizes the case of Dr. Melvin Iscove, whose medical license was revoked in 2018 for alleged sexual abuse of two patients. As journalist Krisha Collier and co-producer Brennan Lefler investigate, they uncover unsettling connections between Iscove's practices and the discredited theories of a 1950s psychoanalyst, Dr. Edmund Burglar, who purported that homosexuality could be "cured."

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Defining Conversion Therapy

Krisha Collier begins by exploring the nuanced definitions of conversion therapy, distinguishing between legal definitions and expert interpretations. She notes, “There are different definitions of conversion therapy. There's how it's laid out in the law, and then there's how experts see it” (03:19).

Historical Context and Legal Framework

Krisha provides a brief history lesson on the evolution of homosexuality within the medical community. She explains that in 1973, the American Psychiatric Association (APA) removed homosexuality from the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM), marking a shift away from viewing it as a psychiatric condition. By 1987, it was permanently excised, and in 1998, the APA formally opposed conversion therapy.

Canadian law has also taken a stand. Conversion therapy was criminalized federally in 2022, with Ontario having banned it since 2015. According to Jordan Sullivan, a survivor and advocate, “Any messages or pressures to suppress, deny and change your identity...is considered a conversion practice” (05:18). However, Krisha highlights the complexity of legal definitions versus professional perceptions, stating, “The criminal breakdown is pretty complex... if the person has a concealed intent to enforce heterosexuality or cisgender identity, then it falls under conversion therapy” (05:45).

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Personal Stories of Survivors

Jordan Sullivan's Journey

Krisha interviews Jordan Sullivan, a trans man who recounts his harrowing experiences with conversion practices. From a young age, Jordan struggled with his gender and sexual identity, subjected to religiously motivated self-conversion attempts. He shares, “Every morning I would lift up the covers to look between my legs to see if I had what I needed... it was really disconnecting from myself” (07:27).

Despite moments of relief, such as a supportive conversation that “saved” him, Jordan eventually succumbed to the relentless pressure of conversion therapy. It wasn’t until a pivotal moment of self-acceptance that Jordan embraced his true identity, stating, “I realized my understanding of what it meant to be homosexual needed to be changed... my inner homophobia was stopping me” (24:17).

Kate McCobb's Experience

Kate McCobb, another survivor residing in Portland, shares their story of being manipulated in therapy to suppress their sexuality. Initially seeking help for unspoken childhood traumas, Kate was diagnosed by a therapist with sexual abuse they didn't remember. This led to intensive therapy sessions aimed at “curing” their homosexuality. Kate reveals, “He was starting to kind of shame me about my sexual orientation... I definitely do not recall pushing back on that” (11:19).

The therapy extended into group sessions and forced relationships, culminating in alienation from family and persistent loneliness. Kate reflects, “There's been so much to untangle... it is still very difficult for me to have romantic relationships” (25:45).

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Expert Insights on Conversion Therapy

Dr. Alan Peterkin's Perspective

Dr. Alan Peterkin, a psychiatrist at the University of Toronto, provides a critical analysis of conversion therapy. He emphasizes its ineffectiveness and harmful repercussions, noting, “It doesn't work... 1973 was when homosexuality was no longer considered a psychiatric diagnosis” (12:03). Dr. Peterkin outlines the severe consequences for individuals subjected to conversion practices, including substance abuse and increased vulnerability to predators.

Travis Salloway on Regulatory Failures

Travis Salloway from Simon Fraser University highlights the shortcomings of medical regulators in addressing conversion therapy. He points out the daunting nature of filing complaints and the lack of tangible support for victims: “To make a complaint to a medical regulator... is really a very daunting task” (16:25). Salloway cites a survey indicating that 10% of GBQT2 men in Canada experienced conversion practices, with 30% occurring within licensed healthcare settings (17:59).

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Dr. Melvin Iscove's Controversial Practices

The episode pivots to Dr. Melvin Iscove’s case, where the College of Physicians and Surgeons of Ontario (CPSO) failed to explicitly label his actions as conversion therapy. Krisha notes, “The committee wrote that when patient Y initially started therapy with Iscove, he liked the idea he could be cured of his homosexual thoughts and feelings” (26:07). Despite the ambiguous terminology, the influence of Dr. Burglar’s theories, which heavily emphasized the "cure" of homosexuality, suggests that Iscove's practices align with conversion therapy's objectives.

Iscove denies practicing conversion therapy, asserting, “I told him that if he didn't want to be homosexual that he could undertake analysis... I made it clear that I don't force this on anybody” (14:22). However, the use of the term "cure" and adherence to outdated theories raise significant concerns about the ethical boundaries breached.

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Regulatory Challenges and Future Implications

Krisha underscores the lack of clarity and action from medical regulators regarding conversion therapy. The CPSO claims commitment to ethical practices but lacks transparency on enforcement, as evident from their vague statement: “Doctors who engage in practices that contravene these principles may be subject to investigation and discipline” (16:42).

Travis Salloway advocates for more robust support systems for complainants and stricter enforcement mechanisms to prevent healthcare professionals from perpetrating conversion practices. The episode raises pressing questions about the efficacy of current regulatory frameworks and the urgent need for reform to protect vulnerable populations.

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Conclusion

"Conversion" serves as a poignant exploration of the dark intersection between medical ethics and discredited therapeutic practices. Through survivor testimonies, expert analyses, and a critical examination of Dr. Iscove's case, the episode highlights the enduring threats of conversion therapy and the imperative for stringent regulatory oversight. As Krisha Collier aptly summarizes, “The language in Burglar's books does appear to be a buffet of conversion therapy samplers... we think that's part of the problem” (27:03). The conversation leaves listeners with a sense of urgency and anticipation for the forthcoming episodes that promise to delve deeper into the systemic issues within medical regulation.

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Notable Quotes

• Krisha Collier (03:19): “There are different definitions of conversion therapy. There's how it's laid out in the law, and then there's how experts see it.”

• Jordan Sullivan (05:18): “Any messages or pressures to suppress, deny and change your identity... is considered a conversion practice.”

• Kate McCobb (11:19): “At that point, I definitely do not recall pushing back on that. I felt shame and I think I shut down.”

• Dr. Alan Peterkin (12:03): “It doesn't work... 1973 was when homosexuality was no longer considered a psychiatric diagnosis.”

• Travis Salloway (17:59): “Sometimes people get stuck in conversion practices because they actually were dealing with some other kind of psychological trauma...”

• Krisha Collier (26:07): “The language in Burglar's books does appear to be a buffet of conversion therapy samplers...”

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This detailed summary encapsulates the key discussions, personal narratives, expert insights, and critical examinations presented in "Conversion," providing listeners with a comprehensive understanding of the complexities surrounding conversion therapy and its implications within the medical field.

Transcript

[Jordan Sullivan]

You are listening. You're listening.

[Dr. Alan Peterkin]

You are listening.

[Krisha Collier]

You're listening to a TVO Today with TVO Today. TVO Today podcast. A listener note. The following podcast contains coarse and sexual language and sensitive themes, including mentions of suicide, which may not be suitable for younger audiences. Listener discretion is advised. Previously on the Oath.

[Dr. Alan Peterkin]

If you can imagine the worst heterosexual couple you know, then you have a faint idea what the best homosexual couple is.

[Jordan Sullivan]

So you don't want to talk about his theories about homosexuality? Because.

[Burglarian Analyst]

No, not. I just don't want to discuss what Burglar wrote about homosexuality. I basically disagree with what he wrote. I just thought he was somewhat misguided. There just an unfortunate coincidence that there was a sexual abuse case involving a Burglarian analyst and Burglar happened to be a conver. See, Burglar practiced conversion therapy. We don't know that Melisko did, and Burglar was wrong, and I don't condone it.

[Krisha Collier]

Since we started looking into this story, the term conversion therapy has come up a lot. That practice has been scientifically discredited and is known to be dangerous. And it's popped up in articles we've read from the time of Dr. Melvin Izkov's hearing. I think that's because there was a lot of focus on his use of Dr. Edmund Burglar's theories on homosexuality. The College of Physicians and Surgeons of Ontario's discipline committee never came out and said Dr. Izcove was doing so called conversion therapy. In fact, that term never appears in the decision at all. Rather, it called his use of Burglar's work controversial and only brought it up to explain the context of the alleged sexual abuse. Just for the record, Izkov denies he was doing conversion therapy, but I have to tell you, it's really hard to ignore some of the language in Burglar's work. So we wondered what qualifies as conversion therapy for TVO today, this is the Oath. I'm Krisha Collier. This is episode four, Conversion. One of the things producer Brennan Lefler and I realized pretty early on is there are different definitions of conversion therapy. There's how it's laid out in the law, and then there's how experts see it. When it comes to Dr. Edmund Burglar, how would he fit in? From what we saw, the word cure is mentioned a lot in his material, which is what got us thinking about conversion therapy in the first place. If you go to the committee's decision. Hold on, I'm just gonna pull it up.

[Jordan Sullivan]

Yeah, yeah.

[Krisha Collier]

The so it says from the outset of treatment, patient Y was introduced by ISCOV to concepts by Dr. Edmund Berglar, starting with a book entitled Homosexuality, Disease or Way of Life. All right. And then it goes on to say in the decision that patient Y understood that homosexuality, according to burglar, was a quote, clinically curable condition through psychoanalytic treatment with excellent chances of cure. So one of the things I think we're going to have to figure out is if that's, I mean, obviously no one's going out and saying I'm doing so called conversion therapy.

[Jordan Sullivan]

So really what we need to figure out is how it happens and who decides what conversion therapy is.

[Krisha Collier]

Right? Yes, exactly. So to learn more, I went to see Jordan Sullivan. He works at the community based research center in prevention and survivor support. Hello. Hi, it's Krisha. How are you?

[Jordan Sullivan]

Hi.

[Dr. Alan Peterkin]

Good.

[Jordan Sullivan]

Come on up.

[Krisha Collier]

Okay. Wonderful. Thank you. The organization is one of a handful looking at so called conversion therapy in Canada. I met Jordan at his apartment in Toronto. He's in his 60s, but you'd never know it. The only real hint of his age is the bit of salt and pepper in his hair. I haven't been to this part of town in April.

[Jordan Sullivan]

Really?

[Krisha Collier]

Yeah.

[Jordan Sullivan]

It's new buildings everywhere.

[Krisha Collier]

I know, I know. A housekeeping note. Conversion therapy is known by many names. There will be times conversion therapy and conversion practices will be used interchangeably.

[Jordan Sullivan]

At the time I was going through it, it was called reparative therapy or just a change ministry. So this is would have been the late 80s, early 90s I'm talking about. It wasn't until the last decade or so that I've heard people using the term conversion therapy.

[Krisha Collier]

What is CP then?

[Jordan Sullivan]

What is conversion practices? So any messages or pressures to suppress, deny and change your identity, whether it's sexual or gender or both or expression, is considered a conversion practice. I'm defining conversion practices broadly. The conversion therapy criminal ban defines it more narrowly.

[Krisha Collier]

Jordan is referring to the federal law making conversion therapy illegal in Canada. It's a criminal code offense that went into effect in 2022. The legal breakdown is pretty complex. So I'm going to give you the Coles notes version. Essentially what you need to know is under the law, conversion therapy boils down to a, quote, practice, treatment or service designed to change a person's sexual orientation or gender identity or expression to heterosexual or cisgender. Depending on the charge, a conviction could result in a penalty of up to five years in prison. In Ontario it has been banned since 2015. Just an FYI there was no criminal allegation or police investigation against Izco for that we know of.

[Jordan Sullivan]

A lot of people don't believe they happen still, and, oh, my God, they do everywhere. Where do they happen? In religious contexts and healthcare contexts. So social services, childcare services, psychiatrists. Yeah, psychiatrists, yes.

[Krisha Collier]

Jordan knows all about these practices. He's a survivor himself. He was exposed to it through religion.

[Jordan Sullivan]

I'd experienced conversion practices from the earliest age because of religious belief. I practiced conversion therapy on myself through prayer, through reading religious texts.

[Krisha Collier]

It started at a young age for Jordan. He wrestled with his gender identity from the age of 4 and then his sexuality when he was about 10. Jordan is a trans man and transitioned later in life, but when he was a kid, he prayed that God would make him a boy.

[Jordan Sullivan]

Every morning I would lift up the covers to look between my legs to see if I had what I needed. And when that didn't happen, I would cry. And then I would say, oh, I haven't got enough faith. By the time puberty hit, suddenly I'm now confronted with the fact that I'm attracted to girls. That attraction to girls became much more consuming than the gender issue did. So the gender issue for me faded it in the background as I struggled with my sexual attraction to sexual, romantic, spiritual, I mean, relational attraction to girls. But what happened for me was I just went into the closet, deeper and deeper. And what that really means psychologically is I was disconnecting from myself.

[Krisha Collier]

I heard that a lot from survivors, the feeling of being disconnected. One used the word disembodied. Over the past several months, I've come to learn how deceptive conversion practices can be. There's not a one size fits all approach. So each person's experience may be different, and some people don't even know they're going through it. That's certainly true for Kate McCobb, who experienced it in therapy with a licensed professional. By the way, this was not Izcov.

[Kate McCobb]

He wasn't doing conversion therapy on everyone in the group. It wasn't like that. It wasn't like some religious camp or like what we see portrayed in the media. It wasn't like that at all.

[Krisha Collier]

I caught up with Kate, who now lives in Portland, to hear their story. At the time, Kate was living in San Francisco. It was 2006, and Kate was in their mid-20s.

[Kate McCobb]

I had been carrying around things that I felt I really needed to talk to a professional about, things I had never spoken to anyone about, things that happened when I was a little kid. I Wasn't sure if I had been sexually abused because when I was little, I was very, I guess sexualized, for lack of a better word. I acted out sexually. I just felt all this shame.

[Krisha Collier]

One day, Kate was talking with a friend who had been seeing a therapist in a neighboring city. This friend found it very helpful. So Kate made an appointment.

[Kate McCobb]

I went to my first session that time. I was in a same sex relationship. I was partnered and the therapist knew I was partnered. And he mentioned that his sister was a lesbian and that she was in one of the healthiest relationships he knew.

[Krisha Collier]

It made Kate feel at ease, like they could open up to him. So Kate decided to tell the therapist about a disturbing dream they had as a kid. Afterwards, Kate says the therapist turned to them and said he thought they had been sexually abused. I have to stop here for a second because I want to make it clear. Kate says they have no recollection of being abused. They were alarmed by the accusation, but also hungry for answers. Kate went along with it, trusting that the therapist knew best.

[Kate McCobb]

I was also coming from this place of something is wrong with me. It was the message I got my whole life. I need to understand what's wrong with me so that I can make it better.

[Krisha Collier]

At first, Kate had therapy every other week. Then they joined group therapy. Within a year, the sessions ballooned to three to four times a week. So much of Kate's treatment focused on unearthing these supposed repressed memories of being sexually abused. Kate says the therapist used to that idea to get them to question their sexuality.

[Kate McCobb]

He was starting to kind of shame me about my sexual orientation. He's telling me that I'm not really gay. At one point he said, I'm pretty sure there's a direct quote. He said, I know lesbians and you're not one.

[Krisha Collier]

What did you say to that? Because you've been out for a while.

[Kate McCobb]

At that point, I definitely do not recall pushing back on that. I felt shame and I think I shut down.

[Dr. Alan Peterkin]

You're either sick or sinful. Those were the messages absorbed by generations of people. And that's what led to these clinical forms of conversion therapy and then these religious or spiritual forms of conversion therapy that you could be fixed.

[Krisha Collier]

That's Dr. Alan Peterkin. He's a psychiatrist and he teaches at the University of Toronto. Dr. Peterkin has counseled survivors of conversion practices. So he's seen firsthand the damage it can do. What are the harms?

[Dr. Alan Peterkin]

Well, first of all, it doesn't work. So 1973 was when homosexuality was no longer considered A psychiatric diagnosis requiring treatment.

[Krisha Collier]

Let's put this on hold for a second because I'm going to give you a little history lesson. What Dr. Peterkin is talking about is. In the early 1970s, the American Psychiatric association, the APA, cut homosexuality as a diagnosis from the DSM. The DSM is a medical book used by many mental health professionals. Removing homosexuality was the start of a gradual transition away from the view that it was a medical disorder that needed treatment. Over the next several years, references to it remained in the DSM. But finally in 1987 it was gone for good. Then in 1998, the APA took a firm stance against conversion therapy. What are the effects of this long term?

[Dr. Alan Peterkin]

It could be not exploring the gay community and finding a family of choice. It could lead to excessive use of alcohol and other substances, in some instances self harm or risk taking. And some of these people are very vulnerable to predators.

[Krisha Collier]

To be very clear, so called conversion therapy can cause physical and psychological harm. Leading medical, psychiatric and psychological organizations have strongly opposed it. One United nations independent expert called the practice inhuman, degrading and cruel. Even going on to say that depending on the situation, it may amount to torture. I guess the question is how long should practitioners have known? This is not a credible theory.

[Dr. Alan Peterkin]

If somebody doing conversion therapy in 2002, they would not have been able to find good evidence based publications on its efficacy. So protocols and treatments change and this is why you have obligatory continuing professional education. And if it has been discredited, then you should cease practicing.

[Krisha Collier]

So in relation to conversion therapy, just because it became banned in 2015 doesn't absolve you from using it prior to that?

[Dr. Alan Peterkin]

No.

[Krisha Collier]

What is the appropriate approach for someone who is struggling with their sexuality?

[Dr. Alan Peterkin]

The number one thing to explore is safety. Learning how to love oneself rather than feeling damaged. And that would be the goal of psychotherapy now for any queer person. It would not be to have them change their orientation or to avoid loving who they want to love.

[Krisha Collier]

That seems very different than what we understand Burglar was doing, at least by today's standards. His theories on homosexuality are dated. Iscove testified he knew hardly anyone still subscribed to them. At the hearing, the CPSO's lawyer repeatedly asked him about it. They even pressed him on whether he used the word cure with one of the complainants. A term Burglar was known to use. Quote, you told him that homosexuality as a theoretical concept, homosexuality could be cured. You told him that? Izcove responded, I told him that if he didn't want to be homosexual that he could undertake analysis and with the idea that he would work toward changing it if that's what he wanted. I made it clear that I don't force this on anybody. It's hard to tell how the college sees all of this. In the decision, the committee said there was no allegation that ISCO failed to maintain the standard of practice. That begs the question then, how are medical regulators dealing with possible cases of so called conversion therapy?

[Travis Salloway]

We do see conversion therapy happening in healthcare settings and to that extent we do need the provinces and territories to act.

[Krisha Collier]

This is Travis Salloway. He teaches at Simon Fraser University in British Columbia. He's worked in two SLGBTQ Health for about 20 years and was heavily involved in the push to get conversion therapy added to the criminal code, the federal law we mentioned earlier. I reached out to him to find out what medical regulators are doing to make sure these practices aren't happening under their watch. Salloway said he hasn't seen much done at all. What do you think needs to be reformed when it comes to health care and these practices?

[Travis Salloway]

I would like to see some more supports offered to people who are bringing forward complaints. So right now I think to make a complaint to a medical regulator or to take any other kind of action against a licensed healthcare practitioner is really a very daunting task.

[Krisha Collier]

You can find some information on the college's website. There's stuff about professional obligations and human rights and health services. It also has equity, diversity and inclusion resources. Other than that, there is a decade old article in a CPSO newsletter saying it has the tools to investigate doctors involved in conversion therapy, but it is unclear if that has ever been put into practice. We asked the cpso. In a statement, the spokesperson said it is committed to ensuring that patients receive evidence based care and that they are treated equitably, ethically and with respect. They went on to say the College takes concerns about conversion therapy very seriously and views such practices as fundamentally incompatible with the ethical and professional obligations of physicians. Doctors who engage in practices that contravene these principles may be subject to investigation and discipline.

[Travis Salloway]

We hope that our healthcare system is constantly adapting and self regulating and improving some patient quality across the board. But the unfortunate truth is that sometimes because we do give health care practitioners, particularly medical doctors, we put a lot of trust in them that when they tell you, you know what, I think this is the problem. I think this is what we need to be treating. That's very persuasive.

[Krisha Collier]

To give me a sense of the numbers, Salloway Talked about a 2019-2020 survey of more than 9,200 gay, bisexual, queer, and two spirit men in Canada, 10% reported being exposed to conversion practices. Thirty percent of them said it happened in a licensed healthcare provider's office.

[Travis Salloway]

Sometimes people get stuck in conversion practices because they actually were dealing with some other kind of psychological trauma or mental health problems, and they were unlucky enough to bump up against a practitioner who happened to hold on to this what is now discredited kind of dogma that, well, maybe you don't have to be gay. They were able to actually put their patients through these practices, even if the patient or client wouldn't have gone looking for.

[Krisha Collier]

Kind of sounds like what happened to Kate. They say one of the things the therapist would tell them, homosexuality is a trauma response.

[Kate McCobb]

The solution to all my angst was to unearth all of this repressed trauma around being sexually abused, which would reveal my true self. And my true self was a heterosexual woman, and that my false self was someone who identified as gay and was androgynous and not really a very feminine person.

[Krisha Collier]

The therapist got Kate to grow out their hair, wear makeup, and lose weight. Over time, Kate fully embraced what he was saying.

[Kate McCobb]

So he starts to talk about how if I could, like, fully feel what felt like to be sexually abused, I would never want to have sex with another woman. And then he told me I was reenacting sexual abuse and I was identified with the aggressor. It just flattened me.

[Krisha Collier]

So Kate broke up with the person they were seeing and finally, frankly, stopped dating women entirely. Because if there was a chance the therapist was right, Kate didn't want to be a part of it.

[Kate McCobb]

I remember thinking, like, I guess I'll just never be in love again. So I went into it fully trusting and following his counsel to the extent that he counseled me to date and have a sexual relationship with another member of the group who was male.

[Krisha Collier]

Did he give you any sort of purpose, for lack of the better word, of why he was pushing you two together?

[Kate McCobb]

He did say, this is your biological destiny.

[Jordan Sullivan]

I was, throughout my adolescence and my 20s, into my early 30s, suicidal. It was just always there, this desire to end the pain that I was in. And so I finally decided I was going to kill myself. Some things happened to sort of wake me up on that day. And I reached out to one individual. I said, I think I'm homosexual and I'm a lesbian. That's what I said. And she said, oh, okay. Would you like strawberry milkshake? We can go for a Walk and talk about it. And it was, like, not the reaction I expected at all. God bless her. It was first time in my life I said the words out loud, and I did not receive condemnation. I received. Let's. Let's chat. Let's go for a walk.

[Krisha Collier]

Let's have a milkshake.

[Jordan Sullivan]

Let's have a milkshake. And that saved me. That saved me.

[Krisha Collier]

You can actually hear the relief in Jordan's voice here. But he did continue to struggle. About a year or so later, he went to see a pastor who recommended a Christian counselor doing conversion therapy. He began reading books and listening to materials which were all about changing his sexual orientation.

[Jordan Sullivan]

You'd listen to these cassette tapes, and I don't know if you've seen the movie with Kevin Kline in and out where he's a teacher, he's gay, he's not really out to himself or anybody else. And he puts on this cassette tape, and this man's voice comes out. He said, are you manly man? Is your shirt tucked in? Take it out, pull it out. Be a mess. Do you hear that music? Don't dance. Don't you dare dance. You shouldn't dance. And of course, Kevin Klein starts dancing. He can't stop himself. It sounds stupid, but that's exactly what goes on in conversion therapy for men. You know, don't move your wrist too loose for me. Do that. Move your wrist loosely. You know, act more like a woman. I can remember the very first time I saw my hand do that. I was driving the car. My mom was in the passenger seat, and I was talking to her, and my wrist was flopping back and forth, and I'm going, oh, it's working. You know, I'm thinking, okay, I'm starting to act more feminine. This is good, ridiculous stuff, but that's part of it.

[Krisha Collier]

Back in California, Kate was trying everything to change their sexuality. They became very isolated. Kate told me during this period, they pretty much only socialized with people from group therapy. They even started dating the male patient the therapist recommended.

[Kate McCobb]

We dated for a number of months, and he even lived with me for a short period of time. And I had sex with him. I mean, this is just. God, I look back and I'm just.

[Krisha Collier]

Like, wow, that's a lot of influence. It sounds like he had over you.

[Kate McCobb]

Absolutely. He and the rest of the group were my whole world.

[Krisha Collier]

Did you feel like maybe looking back, he was trying to create a distance between you and your family?

[Kate McCobb]

Oh, absolutely. He very intentionally pressured me and encouraged me to cut off my family, which I did.

[Jordan Sullivan]

It seemed to encourage anger at my parents. I can remember the day I left therapy and fell apart because I had just discovered my mother was to blame for this pain that I had lived with my entire life. What a horrible thing to put on, not only on me, but on my mother as well.

[Krisha Collier]

For years, Jordan was in and out of conversion practices until one night it all came to a head.

[Jordan Sullivan]

And I was lying flat down on the floor, face down on the floor, just upset that God was so quiet and not telling me what to do. And suddenly I heard a voice, very clear voice in my head that said, I have no problem with you being a lesbian. You're the one who can't accept it. And for the first time in my life, I realized my understanding of what it meant to be homosexual needed to be changed because that's what was preventing me from accepting myself. So in other words, my inner homophobia was stopping me. I had to go through the same process around gender when I was in my 40s. And I finally came out as trans man when I was 51 and transitioned to Jordan.

[Krisha Collier]

Fast forward to 2013. Kate is now in their 30s. At this point, they had already ended the relationship with a guy from the group. It just didn't feel right. Kate started to realize the therapy wasn't working. They still didn't have one explicit memory of the sexual abuse. And Kate wanted to regain control of their life. It took a bit to break free, but after eight years with the therapist, they finally stopped going. Kate reconnected with their family. It had been about a decade since they they last talked.

[Kate McCobb]

There's been so much to untangle and so much to like, sift through. And it is still very difficult for me to have romantic relationships and not worry that I'm hurtful in some way. And I end up experiencing a lot of loneliness because of that.

[Krisha Collier]

Here's the thing. Trying to determine whether so called conversion therapy happened in the Izcov case is tricky because there's one big thing we can't ignore and that's patient X. He maintains he's straight and claims Izkov tried to convince him otherwise. That's not the way we usually understand conversion practices. Patient Y is a different story. Though. He definitely struggled with his sexuality on paper, the committee wrote that when patient Y initially started therapy with Izcov, he liked the idea he could be cured of his homosexual thoughts and feelings. This could conceivably be more in line.

[Jordan Sullivan]

The bottom line, and this would line up with the law, is if your intent is that a person has to be heterosexual or cisgender. If that's your intent, because it's the only normal way to be, then you're.

[Krisha Collier]

Practicing conversion therapy regardless if the person has come to you. Yes, When I left the conversation with Jordan, I felt I had a better sense of what conversion practices are, but it's complicated. The reality is, I'm far from an expert. Izkov dismisses any suggestion he was practicing conversion therapy. We'll get into this more in episode six. Still, we have to say the language in Burglar's books does appear to be a buffet of conversion therapy samplers. The CPSO hasn't been clear where it stands, though, and we think that's part of the problem. Why bring up Burglar in the first place? That's baffled us from the start, and the only people who really know the answer work for the medical regulator. We tried to get to the bottom of it. They weren't exactly eager to explain. That's on the next episode of the Oath. The Oath is hosted, written and co produced by me, Krisha Collier. Brennan Lefler is a co producer and writer. Sound design and editing by Damien Kearns Editing and technical support by Matthew o' Meara. Theme music by Alison Layton Brown Spider Special thanks to the Berry and Lori Greene Family Charitable Trust who made this podcast possible for tvo. Katie o' Connor is the Managing Editor of Podcasts and Digital Video. Lori Few is the Executive Producer of Digital. John Ferry is Vice President, Programming and Content. Thank you for listening.