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- [00:04]
A
Welcome to the observable unknown, where science meets the unexplained. I'm Dr. Juan Carlos Rey of crowscubboard.com and after two decades of working at the intersection of comparative religious studies, grief counseling, anthropology, quantum mechanics, and consciousness studies, I've discovered that our most profound human experiences often exist in the space between what we can prove and what we can perceive. In this podcast, we'll explore the measurable influences of immeasurable forces, those hidden factors that shape our reality but often escape our traditional scientific frameworks. From the latest research in consciousness studies to the ancient wisdom that's now finding validation in neuroscience and quantum physics, we're here to bridge the gap between academic rigor and spiritual insight. Whether you're a skeptic, a seeker, or simply curious about the deeper mechanics of human experience, you're in the right place. Together, we'll examine the evidence, challenge our assumptions, and explore what happens when we dare to look beyond the obvious. Today's conversation explores one of the most quietly radical human behaviors, that of wishing. Not wishing as superstition, not wishing as naive optimism, but wishing as a structured act of consciousness, one that engages neuroscience, motivation, narrative identity, ritual, behavior, and our relationship with uncertainty itself. My guest, Brownell Landrum, approaches wishing neither as a preacher nor as a reductionist. She is a storyteller who became curious, then methodical, then surprisingly rigor. Her forthcoming work, the Art and Science of Wishing, maps wishing as a universal human behavior that lives somewhere between agency and surrender, intention and unpredictability, selfhood and cosmos. This is not a conversation about manifesting outcomes. It is a conversation about how the human mind relates to possibility. In listening, we might ask ourselves, if wishing lives between control and surrender, is it possible that its true function is not outcome manipulation at all, but instead psychological alignment with uncertainty? Without any further ado, let's join the conversation. Brownell, permit me the indulgence of saying I've longed for this conversation. Your words always carry such dignity, as your recent publication proves. I want to start off with a pretty straightforward question. Considering how your perspectives work, you draw a very clear line between wishing, goal setting, and prayer. From a purely cognitive standpoint, what makes wishing its category of mental behavior?
- [02:30]
B
Yeah, well, I, you know, as I was trying to define, you know, what's the difference between a wish, a prayer, and a goal? I realized that, you know, I had to distinguish those, and I feel like that a goal is something in your control, right? So goal is something you can say, okay, I want to lose 10 pounds, or I want to you know, plan for this trip, I'm going to go on or something. And a prayer is something usually that out of your control. You're like, okay, there's nothing I can do here. I'm going to pray for help or guidance or resolution to my problem. And when it comes to a wish, it's kind of of this. I say, you know, in the book, it's both personal and transpersonal. It, it's. It's a little bit in your control, but it's also out of your control. And so what I'm kind of proposing is that when you can take a wish and turn it into a cosmic wish, what I call a cosmic wish, which is by applying the science to wishing, then you can elevate it and you can also bring more of it into your control.
- [03:25]
A
So you emphasize that wishing requires uncertainty. Why is not knowing essential to this process rather than a flaw?
- [03:32]
B
I. That it's because some of it is out of your control. Right. And I also talk about in the book what I call the four responses. So that every wish is. Has one of four responses. Yes, no, wait, or something better. And when you kind of start understanding those four responses and they're really nuanced, like yes isn't always the best answer, and no can be, you know, maybe it's just information to get you somewhere else, or it can lead you to something better, then you can start kind of releasing the expectations and try and that control over it so that it opens up your mind to other possibilities that you might not have thought of.
- [04:11]
A
Would a fully predictable universe make wishing obsolete, in your opinion?
- [04:16]
B
I can't even fathom the concept of a predictable universe. I mean, I guess if you're saying if it's all predestined and to, you know, to steal from Shakespeare, we're all just players, that kind of world depresses me. It makes me think that. That we're just some pawns in some other cosmic game and we don't have lessons and paths and growth and development of own. So if that were true, then I guess if you were the creator and you created that world, you know, you might create wishing as some sort of way to placate the players. But you would if they don't have any power to make them come true and they're just. I don't know, I feel like almost that would be cruel in a way to create a world like that where we don't have some opportunity to improve our lives and to elevate consciousness.
- [05:00]
A
Do you feel then that perhaps wishing is a way the brain might practice humility.
- [05:06]
B
Well, absolutely, in a different, you know, in a, in a similar way and yet a different way than prayer. Right. Because prayer would be kind of the ultimate humility. And I know you would know about that with what you do because that's when you say, okay, I've just, I have no ability to make this happen. I have to release it completely to a higher power to happen. Wishing is kind of more magical than that in a way. It, it. I, I think instead of the word humility, I would probably use openness and receptivity and, and knowing when you're, if you're using the word hum, humility, knowing where your own limitations are, you know, and so accepting, okay, there's only so much I can do here. Now I have to release the outcome and, and let it be. And also follow the science. Right. So that you can't. It's the way people mostly wish now or have been wishing. And of course in history wishing was a driver of survival and success where they did collective wishing. So people did wish together. But I think people might be wishing less or wishing more haphazardly. Right. Without any real forethought. But if you can apply science to it, you can get more control over it.
- [06:14]
A
On the subject of science, you've done a lot of rigorous research in your personal research. Wishing appears to activate future oriented cognition, motivation systems and emotional regulation simultaneously. What does wishing actually do to the brain?
- [06:26]
B
There's a lot of science in it. And as you know, this came to me and this book came to me as a result of writing a fictional world. So I'm a storyteller, not a scientist. And so as I was writing this book and creating this fact fictional world of where wishes are sorted and granted everything, I listened to a lecture on neuroplasticity. And that's when I was all of a sudden like it came to, became what I say, like a game of scientific whack a mole. Because all these sciences came forward. And when it comes to the brain science, there's a lot of really interesting stuff in terms of repetitive behavior. So you've got the default mode network, which I only understand to a certain degree. I know there's scientists, you probably understand it better than I do as a scientist. And so it's, it's, it's setting up your brain to look for the solutions. And the neuroplasticity says the more you repeat something, the more you became a pattern. And then the fact that I'm integrating what I call the Four. I mean, the three P's, which is that when you're making your wish that you are peaceful, positive and purposeful, that becomes a neurobiological shift. Right. Because you're elevating your own energy while you're making the wish.
- [07:34]
A
So would you say that wishing recruits default mode network activity similar to imagination and memory, or is it different than that?
- [07:42]
B
I would. You know, I mean, from a scientist standpoint, we could have a scientist here that would probably explain it better than I can. But I would say that it works in a similar way and maybe a more directed way than imagination, because imagination generally, at least as a writer. Right. I know when I'm imagining I'm opening up to all possibilities. And wishing. If you're doing it the way that I recommend in my program and in my novel, I mean, in my book, is it's about knowing what you want and. And then getting into that peaceful, positive and purposeful place and then connecting to it. So that would be kind of different than imagination, which is much open. Either way, you're looking for solutions. So they're both kind of guiding you somewhere. One is just more targeted than the other. And as far as memory, I don't even know how that would weave it, to be totally honest.
- [08:31]
A
As a storyteller, which is where you are the most comfortable, how do you see wishing interacting with narrative selfhood, the story a person believes they're living?
- [08:40]
B
Yeah. You know, it's so interesting if you. I mean, there's so much more to it than wishing. Right. When you're. When you're writing a character or you're. And my. My book that prompted this is called A Love Story to the Univers, and it's semi autobiographical. So I was going through my own experience and sort of writing it, but. But, you know, some of it's not true and some of it's drawn from truth. And looking at the difference in terms of personality characteristics of characters who might be more inclined to wish or not wish. And the character in the. There's a. There's like little sub characters within the story. And the main character actually is kind of creating this crisis in the wishing realm because she starts giving away her wishes. And that brings whole element of like, okay, you've got somebody who is giving away her wishes. Why is she doing that? And that's a totally different kind of personality characteristic than somebody who, you know, might wish for bad things. And that would be a different type of character. So how somebody wishes, whether they believe in wishing, you know, that's that's all big character development stuff.
- [09:45]
A
Your work catalogs wishing rituals across cultures through your research. Were there any that stood out as unique or peculiar to you and why?
- [09:52]
B
I. The couple of things. One was I found it fascinating, the jumping of the seven waves in Brazil on New Year's, that they will jump seven waves and make a wish while they're doing the jumping at the beach. And I thought that was a really lovely ritual. And so I wrote a kind of a sub story on that. As far as there was a character who was doing that and she made these really outrageous, like, I mean she was a four year old and she's making these outrageous wishes that weren't even possible in her mind, like anybody's mind. They were like, she's making these wishes. And then as I'm writing the story and having them all come true, that's when people were like starting to pay attention differently. So I, I found that interesting. And then I. I kind of encounter. I conjured one of my own that may, or, you know, who knows, it may actually be true. Maybe I'm just pulling in some sort of knowledge from somewhere. But I imagined if you were in the Black Plague and one of my other books, I write a little bit about the Black Plague and if you can imagine the devastation of living at that time and where people would be on their wishes. Right. I mean people are, you know, literally dying in the streets. Um, and so I imagined the. That there, there was a wish fairy in talked or that kind of brought up the idea and gave the consciousness to people to blow out, blow the dandelions. You know, you blow all the little dandelion puffs, the puff balls. And that, that when they did that, they imagined this love, their loved ones souls going to heaven. And that was the kind of idea that I conjured from a fictional standpoint that I just imagine would be really, really beautiful and could, you know, it could be something that could have gotten people through a time like that. So there were others. I, you know, of course the, the lanterns, what they released the lanterns is really beautiful. The ema boards in pan, you know, a lot of really cool rituals.
- [11:34]
A
You may have recognized as a storyteller that there are many cultures discussing the danger of wishing. Certainly in many Middle and Near Eastern cultures, there's discussions of entities like Jin who grant wishes that usually backfire or the age old fable of the monkey's paw. Why do you believe in a narrative context making a wish dangerous is somehow useful to the society that considers it as such?
- [11:58]
B
I do think that there are, there are definitely negative wishes. I think that one of the things in the program I'm launching, you know, it's imperative that the wishes are peaceful, positive and purposeful and that so. And I also think that there is a bit of a. Another. I have a chapter in the book called the Problems and Pitfalls with Wishing. When people think, oh, all I have to do is wish once and my, you know, the Ferrari will be outside my front door. And then they get mad at, you know, yell at somebody else. Well, if you didn't get your Ferrari, you didn't wish hard enough or you weren't a good wisher. And there's a lot of that toxic kind of positivity. So I think that it is important that wishes are framed properly delivered with the right energy. So it's not just the wording, but it's the feeling and the energy that you're using and that we're wishing for, not against. I mean, there was some really interesting science that got into that.
- [12:50]
A
On that note, why do you believe ritualized actions appear to stabilize intention psychologically, even for skeptics?
- [12:57]
B
Yeah, the writing about the skeptics was fun because, you know, I like looking at the idea of somebody coming in and saying, okay, brown Ale, you don't know what are talking about, or this wishing stuff is too woo woo, or whatever. And I'm like, tell me what you think. I want to hear all the sides of everything. And so there can be, you know, criticism toward it. There can be people saying that this is a waste of time or we shouldn't be doing it. But you know, to kind of answer your question, the whole idea of collective energy and like I said, I mean, I'm going to admit some of the science is beyond me. I mean, I have over 400 research article attributions and I know, you know, as with all knowledge of science, you trump me in every possible way in terms of your knowledge of science is that, you know, you get a study and the studies on a narrow topic and then we try to extrapolate that into something wider to apply. And as I think I mentioned to you before that I felt it's so important to get this book out. This could have been years worth of research, but I think the world needs it now. And I think that just from looking at the knowledge of what I've seen in the science and what I know kind of in my heart to be true, and also looking at some of the historical context about how collective wishing rituals united cultures, I just think we could use that now. And that's really my big point of writing the book, is that I want to try to see if we can use this. And I don't know if you're familiar with the David Hawkins power versus force, but we're kind of in this lower level of this force energy, and it's dark and it's despair and it's anger. And if we all started just feeling. Even if all we did was feel peaceful, positive, and purposeful for one minute a day, and maybe we all knew, like, let's say there's a time on the clock, and right now in my clock, it says 2:48. And if 2:48 is when all of a sudden we all make a wish that's peaceful, positive, and purposeful, I just, I. You know, that's where I guess some of it is also my faith in the science and. And faith in my own faith that it could really be beautiful and powerful and we could elevate.
- [14:59]
A
There's a lot to be said for collective action. You know, Emil Durkheim had a lot to say about collective effervescence. And I like the idea that you're proposing if people in the same time frame are trying to make the same secular ritual active, it might have an impact. But to that end, do you secular rituals work? Because belief is optional, but structure is not.
- [15:18]
B
You know, I think that there are certainly people within a religious ritual world work, and I embrace that too. I like the idea of a wish because even the word wish is kind of a mantra. I mean, it's like breathing out and it's like releasing tension. Just the word wish. I mean, just say that word, and it's a beautiful word. And I wanted to create something that allowed for rich religious. Religious ritual. And religious belief also included those that didn't have it. It was like, we can all wish, whether you're. Whatever religion you're in, whatever faith you believe in, what, wherever you believe. If you. If you're in the skeptics world and you don't believe there's a higher power, fine. But there's still enough science to give it a go and see if it feels better. And, you know, I'm calling it an experiment, you know, the cosmic wish experiment. I'm calling it experiment, so that we can test it out and we can see and we can and get some results and get some action and, you know, and adjust it and move it, and maybe it'll change over time and maybe there'll be brilliant minds like yours and other scientists that come in and say, how brownell, if you did it a little bit differently, we could even make it better. You know, I'm all ears.
- [16:29]
A
It's good that you're that receptive. I appreciate that. Do you think that wishing as a ritual might be a form of establishing cognitive scaffolding for people who lack it? Do you feel like it's really just a method of intention setting for those who might be ill equipped?
- [16:42]
B
Well, certainly it gives another version of it. I mean, wishing is something everyone does. I mean, maybe not everyone does every day. Some people do it multiple times a day. You know, just, oh, it's 11:11, I'm going to make a wish or oh, I just found an eyelash or a ladybug landed on me. Or you know, I see the first star of the night, or they go by fountain and they draw, drop a coin in. You know, it's sometimes it's. Some people like, some people do it multiple times a day. Some people only do it when they're blowing out their candles on their birthday cake. Some people may have not been doing it much lately. Maybe, you know, I'm, I don't know if you read the book in the blue balloon part, but that, that's a whole nother phenomena. But we don'. Know that, you know, is it a chicken and egg maybe? Are we wishing less and is that one of the reasons why we're going through the problems that we're going through? You know, it's all. My kind of purpose as being a storyteller is to ask these questions and maybe pull in some research from different scientists that know a lot more than I do to say, let's try this and let's see if it can be something that can give those people, like you say, a framework and something that feels easy. And you know, there's, there's no negative connotation to wishing that I know of, except people might think it's frivolous. And if you can make it fun, then why not do that too, right? There's nothing wrong with peaceful, positive and purposeful and making something fun. Even if you're a skeptic, you kind of can't put, you know, can't put those things down.
- [18:04]
A
I absolutely agree. Regarding the blue balloon section, you know, Dr. Carl Gustav Jung had a lot to say about synchronicities. Do you believe that wishing somehow coincides with our capacity to recognize synchronicities or our desire to seek them out?
- [18:17]
B
I think it, I think it's kind of both. I mean, I think that once you Set up an intention. Like a friend of mine was saying, well, I wish my husband and my son would get along better. And, and they're like, but. And then it's like, oh, wait, wishing is your realm and I can't wish for that. And I was like, well, you know, I. It really made me start thinking if, if that's her wish, how beautiful that might be. Because she might be thinking of ways she's not going to force them. Right. It's going to be up to them. And at the end of the day, but maybe she is going to think about something to say like, wow, I wish you'd been with me when I got to see the grandchild. You know, I wish you could, you know, get to know them. I wish you weren't missing out on this experience. There might be things that she's going to be thinking about and looking for that'll help solve that problem. And she might not, but it's going to be feeling, making her feel better just by doing it. So I do think that it can, it can give you kind of that kind of power and you're going to be looking for solutions. It's going to set up your brain to do that. And, you know, whether you thought about the blue balloon and you made the blue balloon show up, or the blue balloon was already there, there and you were given that message from some other power that there was going to be a blue balloon, or there's some retroactive retro causality where the blue balloon happened right when you thought of it. But you just, you know, the timing aspect, there's a lot of ways to look at that at the end of the day. Is it. Does it make you happy? Does it help you, you know, elevate your wishes? That's. That's the goal. Right.
- [19:45]
A
Does it help you move on? I think that's valuable and I agree with you. It does seem like there's a lot of coincidence between the concept of synchronicity recogn and the idea of wishing. You describe an inner, outer and higher self involved in wishing. How does this map onto contemporary models like internal family systems or predictive processing?
- [20:06]
B
Well, I mean, you're getting into territories of. I'm not sure how to compare to, because I'm not familiar with those. But I can explain how I see the three selves and you can maybe tell me how it weaves in. Can you help me with that?
- [20:16]
A
Of course.
- [20:17]
B
Okay. Because again, I'm, I'm, I'm still learning a lot of this as I, as I go But I also feel like maybe my framework is good for this discussion and this project because I am open to feedback and I'm not married to a particular science to use one way or the other. I'm looking at. I. You know, the book quotes 70, over 70 different scientists. So it looks at it a lot of different ways. The way I look at the selves is that I believe that we have a soul. And that soul is something that existed before we were born and will exist after we were born. And I know different religions have different variations on that and that's totally fine. I'm just kind of giving you the framework that I see is that there's a part of us that's connected to the spiritual or the divine or this higher energy. I mean, I write in a couple of my other novels that I think someday physics is going to be able to measure the power of love and that that would be the same as the definition of the divine. So I would. I kind of think, okay, you can still believe in love and not necessarily believe in quote unquote, God or creator, but there is a part of us that's connected to that level and that existed. And then I believe that that part of us chooses a body and becomes. I personally am a believer in reincarnation, but that's a whole nother discussion. And I like writing about it just because it is something to me, really fascinating way to look at life. But you don't have to believe in reincarnation to believe in wishing for sure. Or to believe in the soul. But when you choose a body, then if you want to look at it as I say, inner self, outer self and higher self or mind, body, spirit, right? The inner self is the body part of you. It's the part that when you choose a body and become you, that's the part that's its own kind of entity. One of the ways I like to look at it is imagine if your soul had chosen my body, for example, or vice versa, or somebody that you know, it would be different, right? It wouldn't be the same you. So that perfect blending of the three selves is what creates it makes us, each of us who we are. And so when you start understanding those three selves, then if, when, when I first wrote my first book is called 5 Reasons why Bad Things Happen. And that's where I get into the three selves a lot. And one of the spoiler alert. But one of the reasons why bad things happen is subconscious sabotage. And that' when our bodies aren't in Alignment with either what our spirit wants or our mind wants. And so when you're making a wish, it's important that all of the three selves are in alignment. Because if you're wishing for something that your body is rejecting, then there's going to be blocks. And the more you're aware what your body wants or your spirit wants, because your body might go, I want something bad to happen to my enemy. You know, might be in this competitive survival of the fittest mode. But your spirit's never going to want that. That's not what's going to be a divine purpose for your spirit. So may instead you wish for your enemy to become more peaceful, positive and purposeful so that maybe they stop hurting themselves and others. So I don't know how that fits in within the frameworks that you're talking about.
- [23:17]
A
Well, it sounds as though maybe either directly or indirectly, you might have been influenced by Freud's concept of the id, the ego and the superego. I also would reflect on Dr. Eric Burns concept of child, adult and parent. But it sounds as though whether we involve ourselves with unidentifiable mysticism or concept that might not have a good anchoring in hard science, that the projected self is the highest self, the ideal. And of course you relate the body to the lowest self. These all three, I would imagine body, mind and soul have to be in alignment for a wish to have a positive outcome. Is that the thinking that you were running with?
- [23:56]
B
I would not say the body is necessarily lowest. I don't think that that's a fair thing. I think that the body does run on a different plane because it is tied to this earth. And the earth has rules that. Not the same as that would be in a, in a spirit world. It's just different. I mean, the body is beautiful and powerful and it's a gift we have that we should take care of because, you know, our soul, not, not all souls get to have a body. And, and that's an important part of us. So I just wanted to. My body was like, no, no, no, don't say it's lower. It's just on a different plane, let's put it that way.
- [24:30]
A
But still equal with outer self or higher self.
- [24:33]
B
Yeah, I mean it's just, it's got a different level of energy, but it's, it's very important. And something we can, we tend to might want to blame for the things that happen to us, but when we start integrating that part of us, it's beautiful.
- [24:48]
A
You warn against what you have called Toxic manifestation. Where does wishing become psychologically harmful either to the wisher or to those around them?
- [24:57]
B
I think that, like, sometimes I run into people are like, I don't need this. I can just want something. It always happens for me and I know those people and it doesn't. And there's kind of a superiority, like, I don't need to do this. And. And of course you people don't want to follow a new science of wishing and enjoy this fun practice that I've come up with. That's up to them. There's just kind of a superiority kind of thing that happens sometimes when people act like that and then you're failing. Then of course, that's another way to subjugate others who are like, well, wait a minute, I don't always get what I want and those people don't either. There's also really some interesting research on some of these things, and I'm going to poke a little fingers at the book and movie. The secret that if the people are like, well, unless if you didn't, you just didn't do it it right, you didn't do the vision board right, or you didn't wish properly, or you didn't, you know, want it enough, and that's why such and such didn't happen. And I put that chapter after the one on the four responses. Because when you start realizing, you know, no is just information, it's not an ending, and no can help you. You know, if you get no on your wish, maybe it's guiding you to something better, or maybe you're waiting for a reason because there's something you need to do in the meantime, then there's so much more to it than just, oh, you wished for Ferrari and it's outside your front door. It's, it's, you know, there's a of laws in the universe and there's not just one, and that supersedes all of them. So it just helps to kind of have more compassion for others and yourself as you're looking at the things that you might want in your life.
- [26:26]
A
So when it comes to wishing, you believe no is the beginning of a renegotiation of sorts. Tell me how that works. If someone is wishing for something, whether they're following your formula or another, and it doesn't come true, do you believe this is because of an internal flaw? Is this because they don't have enough positive intentionality? Where do you think negative responses in someone's wishing practices come from?
- [26:48]
B
Well, like I said, I mean, sometimes no is not an ending. It's information. It's just guiding you somewhere else. And sometimes yes isn't always the best answer. So, like, for example, I have a story in the other book about, you know, the three. I call them the three Justins. And one is super wealthy, and he's. They're all wishing for a bike for their birthday, and they're all the same age, and the wealthy one wishes for the fanciest bike there is, and he may get it right, but he may not be happy with it. It'll be like, oh, then it's. Then somebody across the street gets a nicer one, and then he's ma mad and he doesn't love his bike anymore. Whereas one of the other boys might not get a bike because the family can't afford it, but maybe there's a friendly neighbor across the street who helps them rebuild a bike that's left on the sidewalk. And they have a lifelong friendship. So they didn't necessarily get the wish as they wished it, but it might be guiding them to something better. So it is important to realize that, and I always like to. I have a concept that I call reverse optimism, is when you can look backward and think, oh, that happened. If that hadn't happened then, that hadn't happened, that wouldn't have led me to where I am now. So even though it felt bad at the time or it felt like a no answer at the time, you know, I know Garth Brooks writes a song called thank God for Unanswered Prayers, you know, and he looks back at a relationship that he was so in love with a girl in high school and wished he'd married her. And then he sees her to a football game while he's with his wife, and he's like, yeah, he doesn't say, dodged a bullet, but I'm making that interpretation like, I'm better off where I am. I got. I got something better. And so if you can learn to reframe it in a way that you're looking for something better, I just think that can lift off all of us to a happier place and a less judging place of others.
- [28:26]
A
What changes when wishing becomes communal rather than private? Are we looking at emotional contagion, social bonding, or something more emergent than that?
- [28:36]
B
I mean, I'd love to flip the question and ask you, what do you think? I. I personally want to see it. I don't think we have it in today's culture. I think we're in a lot of, you know, a lot of negativity and lot of, you Know, oh, you know, maybe they're wishing that something would happen to somebody or wish this person would doing this or something. And if we could lift our energy up to wishing for, you know, a healthier planet or our national parks to be preserved or like somebody that just started one of our wishing circles. Wish circles, you know, wants people to really embody their body and just treasure for eight weeks, connect with and treasure their body. That's a really beautiful thing that we can all do. And if we all knew like we said before, you know, if it's a certain time of day and everybody is wishing at that particular time, then you're not so alone. And you know, even if, you know, like I said, there's, there's science behind that saying that it would work this way, we need to test it and see how it works. But I just think it would be feel really beautiful to know there could be a hundred more people making the same wish at the same time and we could all be feeling it.
- [29:40]
A
You know, it would certainly act as a surrogate for religious ritual when people lack it. And I believe the kind of social bonding wish circles provide isn't at all unlike religious communities that might not necessarily require ecumenical representation, but I think the real value could come from the emotional contagion. Individuals who want a better future or who want something better for themselves and don't have the optimistic capacity to really see it flesh out in front of them. Maybe being around people who have a clearer vision of what good is coming to them might rub off and give them more sense of what the future could be if it changed. And you're right, this is a good time for that. You're very careful to separate peer reviewed evidence from speculative territory. Where do you believe science is genuinely approaching the frontier in this topic?
- [30:29]
B
You know, it's, it's really fascinating, fascinating to look at like what ions is doing and some of the. In fact, I don't know if you read the new Dan Brown book, but he gets into some of the frontiers of brain research and what we're learning about our ability like the idea of retro causality has always been something really fascinating to me. To imagine that, you know, we might even be able to change the past is mind blowing. And this whole idea of. And again, you know, this is way beyond my knowledge base other than what I, the limitations of what I. Although I do love to listen to science lectures at night, so I'm learning more every day. But just the whole idea of the quantum realm and the idea that there is a connection between us and the nonlocalities. And there's just this idea. And of course, some people get into the whole next level of the parallel worlds and maybe these things are happening on another level. And I love the idea. Also, I love quotes from maclunk about this. The more we can bring science and religion together, the better. And I just think that that's really, really beautiful. And you know, just to tag onto the last question related to that is, you know, while you were talking, it made me feel this really, really beautiful unity of that we are so divided by religion or non religion that wishing transcends that. Right? You can have a wish circle and you can have every possible religion in that wish circle wishing for the same wish and how that could be like just a really great uniter.
- [31:59]
A
And thank you for bringing up Dr. Plank. I'm a huge fan. I would say that this notion, this concept of what happens when people are formulating ways of thinking systems of belief like wishing and groups like wishing circles is more, in my mind, a way of trying to understand what probably already exists in some aspects of quantum mechanical theory that haven't been touched on or have been and just aren't properly articulated. Practices that in and of themselves clearly want to shape reality and have the capacity for shaping reality. But we don't have a language to really fit around that concept yet. So we start struggling with fun words like intention or affirmation or wishing. And I believe that the collective thrust of a group is always much more powerfully attuned to accomplishing tasks than a single person would be. But if wishing shapes perception, motivation and behavior, what responsibility does a wisher carry for themselves and others?
- [32:58]
B
Well, it's potentially huge, right? And that's, you know, why when I set up the cosmic wish experiment and it's gonn, it's going to land on my shoulders, I guess, in a way. Is that because I'm not going to prove every wish right? When you set. When someone sets up a wish circle, there might be some people that submit a wish that I don't feel like fits the realm of peaceful, positive and purposeful. And I'll either have the choice of talking with them to see how can we reframe it to a positive thing and to make it so that it fits the energy of what I think is what we need, or I will say, no, I don't think it's right for you to join my framework. I mean, what people do is what people do. I can't control that. But I can also at least not Let them funnel through my system to try to perpetuate something. I feel even if they come in and say, I want this candidate to win this election, I would just say, let's reframe it for the most peaceful, positive and purposeful candidate. Or I don't want this news outlet to stay in business. Well, maybe it's. What if we can wish for all the news to be more guided to the more peaceful, positive and purposeful solutions that we need in the world today? So what people, other people do and what they bring on themselves is their own energy. Like I said, I can't change that. I can't affect that other than maybe having a wish, that everybody's wish is peaceful, positive and purposeful. But within my system at least, I will make sure that I elevate all the wishes that go through it.
- [34:30]
A
Well, what criteria do you follow for that?
- [34:32]
B
Yeah, well, peaceful. And there's some fun stuff in the book, as you know, about kind of the science about the energy of peace. Peaceful. It obviously you're in a. In a, you know, grounded space. You're relaxing yourself. In fact, you know, I've gotten even to the. The habit now of if I fall, as if I wake up in the middle of the night and can't fall asleep, I'll like, okay, let me just find myself in a peaceful, positive and purposeful place. And it helps me fall asleep better. It's like I get into the energy of peaceful. That's relaxed, right? That's unity. That's everybody getting along positive. It's. It's toward a positive end. It's for, you know, you know, obviously the opposite of negative. So, you know, we want something that is going to improve things. And then purposeful really is when it ties into the higher self especially, and that spiritual self or whatever, the aspect you want, whatever word you want to use it that it is. There is a higher purpose. There is a more important purpose. And so my wish is there to do something that has a. Has a higher purpose to it. So that's where they kind of all flow together.
- [35:33]
A
Do you believe wishing can become narcissistic? And if so, what would those wishes look like?
- [35:37]
B
Certainly. I mean, you know, people can use any wording they want for anything they want. There was a really interesting story, and I write about it in the first book and kind of allude to it also in the next one, but is, you know, a story of a. Of a family that went camping and the child was abducted at the camping trip and the husband was angry and furious and you know, and enraged and was probably wishing bad things to happen to the kidnapper. And the wife was the opposite. She's like, I wish or pray he has a good day. I pray for good weather for the. For the kidnapper, and thinking that the more that she would send good energy, that the less likely he would harm the child. And, you know, then they. Then they came and saw these people, you know, I don't know, 10 years later or whatever, you know, and she was healthier and happier than the husband. So that dark play. And we all know what it feels like, right? I mean, we all know what anger feels like. We wouldn't be human to learn to think, how can I transcend this? And how could I reach a higher level on this and find that peaceful, positive, and purposeful place? You know, it'll elevate. Now, do the same principles work? Or could the same principles work if people collectively wishing bad things and make bad things happen? You know, I've literally wrote the book on bad things happening. But I like to say people say everything happens for a reason. I said, yeah, I wrote the book on it, probably, and maybe that's why bad things that we're seeing happening are happening. And maybe that's why. Well, I know that. Why I'm doing what I'm doing and why I was so compelled to get the book out, even though I'm not a scientist. I welcome. I, you know what? And I think I told that, but I. I welcome scientific ritual. I mean, rigor. I would love to see scientists come in and say, let's study this thing. You set it up, but let's. Let's test it, and let's study it. I'd be all over that. I hope they don't test the dark stuff, though. I don't think we need that.
- [37:33]
A
But what do you think distinguishes hopeful orientation from denial?
- [37:37]
B
Wow. Denial is a big thing. That. Boy, that's a really deep one. There are. Sometimes we can't cope with things that we just can't cope with. I mean, and so we'll get into denial about it happening. I think that. I guess what I would like to see with this book and these programs is that. And with. Even with the concept, like I said, of the reverse optimism and the nuances of the four responses, that people could start being aware of the things that they're denying. Because I know, for example, there were people in Covid, like, we don't care what happens. We're just going to stay at home, and other people can go kill themselves and kill you know, hurt each other and spread this thing, but we don't care. And I thought, yeah, okay, but is that a really good energy when maybe we can all be helping each other now? And I guess what I'm trying to do is offer a framework so that we can care and we can realize that we don't have to be in this lower level. I, I don't blame people that, that lower level, not wanting to stay there. But if we can rise up to a higher level, maybe all, everybody can join us. You know, maybe I'm just being fanciful, but that's my dream.
- [38:40]
A
Tell me where listeners would be able to find your work. Do you have any occasions coming up where you'll. Any signings? Do you plan launch? That's going to be why they recognized any media appearances, anything of that? Right.
- [38:53]
B
Well, I am, I'm I'm just, you know, this, this is, I think my second talk on this particular book because it just came out and I didn't want to jump the gun too much. I'm the only Brownell Landrum in the world, so it's pretty easy to find me on all the social media. You can go to brownelllandrum.com to see my other books and see this book and check out Cosmic Wish Experiment. And if somebody's starting a wish circle and having a wish that they'd like to, even if you just have a few friends join, that would be fun. Or you want to join someone else's. We also are starting on February 1st, another kind of a independent. I call it Indie All Stars, where people are like, I don't want to join a wish circle, but I'd like to at least, you know, implement some of this practice and learn some of these programs and get the free playbook that they get, because everything is free. I mean, my, my goal here is, like I said, you can buy the book. If you want to buy the book, that's fine, but you don't have to to sign up and start a wish circle or join the cosmic wish experiment. There are, there's a free playbook, there's activities, there's prizes, all kinds of fun stuff. So just if they can check that out and find me on social media, YouTube. I'm doing a lot more YouTube videos so they'll be able to see that and, you know, let's all wish together. My, like, my, you know, messages make our cosmic wishes light the sky. And it's funny, just one little thing is that I have a little teddy bear and all these cute things that with wishing and the messages, look up and make your cosmic wish. And then I did some research and actually just the physical act of looking up has science behind how it's beneficial from a physiological standpoint. So let's all look up and maybe we'll light the sky.
- [40:30]
A
And that's a great piece to finish with that different kinds of wish rituals might actually change neuroanatomy for the better. Your words have absolutely carried the dignity of your work and I appreciate you sitting with me today. Please take good care of yourself, Brownell, and I look forward to reading much more of your work in the future.
- [40:46]
B
Thank you so much. I'm so glad to be here and I'm, I, I, I'm so excited with what you're doing and I've your other, your other shows and getting in the science. So I'm looking forward to hearing what your, your fans and followers think as well.
- [40:58]
A
Thank you so much. I appreciate that immensely. Have a wonderful holiday.
- [41:00]
B
Thank you. You too.
- [41:05]
A
What I appreciate most about this work is its restraint. Wishing in this framework is not a demand for placed upon the universe. It is a disciplined relationship with possibility. And perhaps that is why wishing has survived every culture, every religion, every technological age. Not because it guarantees fulfillment, but because it teaches the nervous system how to live with what cannot yet be known. Brownell Landrum is the author of the Art and Science of Wishing. This conversation has reminded us that curiosity, when handled with care, can be more powerful than certainty. As always, thank you for listening, for thinking slowly, and for remaining willing to stand at the edge of the observable and the unknown.