Podcast Summary: The Observable Unknown
Host: Dr. Juan Carlos Rey
Guest: Dr. Daniel Jorgensen
Date: September 21, 2025
Overview
In this episode of The Observable Unknown, Dr. Juan Carlos Rey explores the intersections of science, spirituality, and the margins of religious experience with renowned scholar Dr. Daniel Jorgensen. The conversation traverses Dr. Jorgensen’s personal and academic journey into the esoteric, the evolution of the cultic milieu, and the significance of studying religious and mystical traditions outside mainstream institutions. Together, they probe questions of meaning, identity, society, and the enduring human thirst for understanding beyond the measurable.
Key Discussion Points & Insights
Dr. Jorgensen’s Personal and Academic Origins
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Roots in Prophetic Tradition [02:28]
- Dr. Jorgensen grew up in the Community of Christ (formerly RLDS) church, where prophecy and supernatural communication were actively practiced.
- These formative experiences with prophecy in a conservative religious environment sparked his interest in supernatural communication and, eventually, in esotericism.
- Quote: “That, you know, that leaves a heavy influence on you. And to put it kind of bluntly and shortly, that's, I think probably the origin of my, of my interest in supernatural or otherworldly communication, divination, those areas.” [03:45, Dr. Jorgensen]
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The Existential Spark [05:09]
- Dr. Jorgensen describes his initial interest in esotericism as existential rather than purely intellectual.
- His academic focus shifted after leaving religious faith behind in adulthood, eventually channeling his curiosity into sociology.
- Quote: “It was existential, but I was able to kind of COVID it by, you know, making it a matter of intellectual concern.” [06:55, Dr. Jorgensen]
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Navigating Personal vs. Academic Tension [08:17]
- He feels no conflict between his curiosity and academic objectivity, having “sold out” to academia and approached religion as an observer rather than a participant.
The Cultic Milieu and New Age Movements
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Adopting and Expanding the Concept [09:26]
- Dr. Jorgensen adopted Colin Campbell’s concept of the “cultic milieu” to describe the loose, diverse, and often misunderstood networks of esoteric and alternative religious practitioners he studied in ’70s Phoenix.
- He sees his work as the first ethnographic study of what would become known as the New Age community.
- Quote: “…Colin Campbell’s notion of the cultic milieu… it was really eye opening, you know, from the standpoint that, hey, this guy’s got it. He’s described exactly... this phenomena that I’m looking at here in Phoenix.” [11:05, Dr. Jorgensen]
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From Fringe to Fixture [12:39]
- The cultic milieu is described as a response to the changing structure of American social and religious life—less community-based, more individual, less doctrinaire.
- The boundaries between “spiritual” and “religious” are critiqued as artificial—“It’s all religion”—and he notes the clear, ongoing decline of organized religion in favor of more fluid spiritual alternatives.
- Quote: “The cultic milieu fits extremely well with late modernity… it’s sort of loosely organized, and yet it provides an outlet for people’s religiosity.” [12:43, Dr. Jorgensen]
Esoteric Practices, Tarot, and Sociological Inquiry
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Serendipity and Study [18:12]
- Dr. Jorgensen’s dissertation focus on esoteric communities, especially tarot and occult groups in Phoenix, arose out of both personal curiosity and happenstance through personal connections.
- The academic study of tarot, at that time, was seen as frivolous by historians and sociologists alike.
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Fieldwork and Impact [21:08]
- The community was diverse but not typically highly educated; personal contacts, including his wife, contributed to foundational fieldwork on the meaning and use of tarot in divination.
- Quote: “She read tarot cards too, and she did a number of tarot card readings... that became very useful me later on in terms of doing the… analysis of divination.” [22:10, Dr. Jorgensen]
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Human Thirst for Meaning [24:45]
- He attributes the attraction to esotericism to a human “unquenchable thirst for meaning,” not simple gullibility or mere suppression of religious impulses.
- Quote: “We have a thirst, an unquenchable thirst for meaning. And we're a meaning making creature.” [24:45, Dr. Jorgensen]
Methodological Reflections: Participation, Objectivity, and Truth
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On ‘Going Native’ in Fieldwork [26:03]
- Jorgensen affirms that immersion ('going native') in the cultures he studies does not threaten objectivity but instead enhances understanding—contrary to older academic dogmas.
- Quote: “…going native or being a participant in an observer is not only not a liability, but it's an advantage if you do that… acquiring the insider’s point of view, which is presumably the goal of all basic social science.” [27:57, Dr. Jorgensen]
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Truth, Representation, and Social Science [29:19]
- He cautions against the extreme relativism that equates fiction and scholarly work, insisting on the necessity of fieldwork and empirical contact with real human life.
- Quote: “…social science could sit in their life, sit in their studies and make it all up. There would be no need to go, you know, actually deal with human beings.” [31:56, Dr. Jorgensen]
The Esoteric Landscape: Changes and Continuities
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Shifts in Alternative Spiritualities [32:29]
- Discusses the blossoming of the neo-pagan movement since the late 1970s and its overlap and distinctions with the New Age movement—marked by flexibility and eclecticism rather than rigid dogma.
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Internet and Modern Esotericism [35:46]
- The Internet is identified as a new, effective medium for maintaining and proliferating esoteric and cultic networks.
Personal Reflections & The Sacred in Nature
- Personal Spirituality and Nature [36:25]
- While not religious in the conventional sense, Dr. Jorgensen finds his own form of sacredness in the natural world, describing bike rides in the desert as religious experiences.
- Quote: “…that involvement with nature is a religious experience, or what I would consider a religious experience.” [37:10, Dr. Jorgensen]
- He critiques Western culture’s lack of reverence for the natural world, noting this as a major spiritual deficit of modernity.
The Future of the Cultic Milieu and Advice for Students
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Fertility of the Margins [38:39]
- Dr. Jorgensen believes fringe religious and spiritual groups will remain crucial subjects for ongoing research, especially as institutional religion continues to decline in the West.
- Predicts that America may eventually resemble secular Europe regarding widespread religiosity.
- Quote: “This whole world that we live in is, we don't understand it very well. We don't understand the social construction of reality very well. So there's, there's no end of, of work to be done.” [38:48, Dr. Jorgensen]
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Advice for the Next Generation [40:35]
- Encourages students to follow their personal curiosities—no matter how small or marginal they first appear—as deep exploration often reveals broader significance.
- Quote: “Go find stuff that you really like to do and do it and stay with it, because that's what's going to sustain you over the long run.” [41:09, Dr. Jorgensen]
Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments
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"I think one of the most important things to understand about human beings is we have a thirst, an unquenchable thirst for meaning."
— Dr. Jorgensen [24:45] -
"Going native or being a participant in an observer is not only not a liability, but it's an advantage if you do that."
— Dr. Jorgensen [27:57] -
"It’s all religion. You know, it's really a matter of is it orthodox, conventional, traditional religion, or is it something different from that?"
— Dr. Jorgensen [13:46] -
"That involvement with nature is a religious experience, or what I would consider a religious experience."
— Dr. Jorgensen [37:10] -
"Go find stuff that you really like to do and do it and stay with it, because that's what's going to sustain you over the long run."
— Dr. Jorgensen [41:09]
Important Timestamps
- 02:28 – 07:52: Dr. Jorgensen’s personal roots in prophetic traditions and the existential impetus for his academic path.
- 09:26 – 12:39: Discovery and application of the "cultic milieu" concept; its explanatory power.
- 12:39 – 17:23: Analysis of spiritual individualism, the decline of organized religion, and changes in American religious life.
- 18:12 – 24:45: Golden age of field research on tarot, meaning, and identity in the esoteric scene.
- 26:03 – 32:07: Methodological reflections on participation, objectivity, and representation in sociology.
- 32:29 – 36:16: Growth of neo-pagan and New Age movements; impact of technology and internet.
- 36:25 – 38:39: Personal spirituality as a connection to nature; critique of modern culture’s lack of reverence for the earth.
- 38:39 – 41:31: Reflections on the future and enduring importance of research on religious margins, advice for students.
Tone & Final Thoughts
Dr. Jorgensen’s tone carries warmth, humility, and critical reflection. He is candid about the difficulties and rewards of academic life, the value of participant observation, and his personal movement from belief to agnostic reverence for the natural world. Through his scholarly and personal journey, he invites listeners to see the margins not as peripheries, but as essential crucibles for meaning-making in contemporary life.
Dr. Rey’s closing words:
“…the margins are not simply peripheral, but essential to understanding how meaning and identity are constructed in modern life…” [41:32]
For those curious about the interplay between society, the sacred, and the unknown, this episode offers a masterclass in both empathy and intellectual rigor—urging us all to look a little deeper into the observable unknown.