Loading summary
Transcript47 lines
- [00:00]
A
Welcome to the observable unknown, where science meets the unexplained. I'm Dr. Juan Carlos Rea of crowscubboard.com and after two decades of working at the intersection of comparative religious studies, grief counseling, anthropology, quantum mechanics, and consciousness studies, I've discovered that our most profound human experiences often exist in the space between what we can prove and what we can perceive. In this podcast, we'll explore the measurable influences of immeasurable forces, those hidden factors that shape our reality but often escape our traditional scientific frameworks. From the latest research in consciousness studies to the ancient wisdom that's now finding validation in neuroscience and quantum physics, we're here to bridge the gap between academic rigor and spiritual insight. Whether you're a skeptic, a seeker, or simply curious about the deeper mechanics of human experience, you're in the right place. Together, we'll examine the evidence, challenge our assumptions, and explore what happens when we dare to look beyond the obvious. Today, I sit down with Dr. Robin Haggar, a clinician whose path began in the labs and lecture halls of the University of Arizona and was forever changed when she stepped into her first Healing Touch class. Her journey is a story of integration. From writing medical protocols that saved lives to. To guiding patients and families through plant medicine ceremonies with shamans in Peru. From the halls of hospital administration to the sacred breath of vibrational sound therapy, Robin's life is a testament to what happens when intellect bows to intuition and when science and spirit agree to walk hand in hand. This is a conversation about courage, about healing beyond the prescription pad. It's about rediscovering medicine as service, not just business. So without any further ado, let's join the conversation. It's an absolute delight to find myself in conversation with you once more, Robin. It has been far too long.
- [02:13]
B
Yes, I agree. It's lovely. I love hearing your voice. There's something very soothing.
- [02:21]
A
Well, I find your voice to be just the same, so I'll take it as a great compliment. I'm going to start off with your journey with a doctorate in pharmacy, yet expanding into holistic healing and energy work. What was the turning point that led you to integrate these two worlds?
- [02:38]
B
Well, there were a couple things leading up, and I want to start with whenever we think that things are by chance, they're absolutely not. I truly subscribe to the that our lives are guided. So in my little journey, I ended up in a pharmacy when I was in my undergrad, and I loved it so much, and I was so drawn to medicine. That I decided to get my doctorate. So I went down to the University of Arizona, and the same year that I got there, which was 1995, Dr. Andrew Weil went to the university. He was hired on as faculty, and he was setting up an integrative medicine program and clinic. And they started doing clinical trials and they started publishing from his clinic. So while I was there, I did not realize at the time how much that would influence the way that I was being taught and trained, because I just wanted to be the best clinician possible. I was striving, you know, my younger self was just striving to be very academic, very evidence based, and I wanted to get out and do great things in medicine. And it wasn't until I started really digging in and working in medicine, I realized how much we were over utilizing medications and. And it was, it became painfully clear to me that medicine was a business and I wanted it to be a service. So I had some conflict within me about that. So I started writing protocols. And the first protocol that I came across that I really didn't want to write it all about medicine, I wanted to offer more options for people, more for people. And that was a pain protocol. So I decided to sign up for my first energy medicine class. The gal that was doing my hair, she was going to take this class. It was a healing touch level one class. And I thought, okay, I researched it, it was accredited. And I had no idea what I was signing up for, but I was open. So I thought that was kind of interesting because I very, very much, you know, was naivety at that point. I was walking in, I was going to take some notes, come back to my office, you know, the hospital on Monday, and write this protocol. It changed my world. So that was 2010. It changed my world quite a bit. I did not understand it. I was still walking away from a weekend long class saying, what the heck was that? I mean, I knew it was doing something because I could feel it within my body. I could see it with the participants, but I had no idea. I did not understand how to wrap my head around that because I was so academic. I went to University of Arizona. It was one of the top schools for pharmacy in the nation. And. And I chose that school for that reason. So I was very much academic based, evidence based. And so it just, that was the pivotal moment that took me in a different direction. And then just a couple of years later, my aunt, who is my mom's sister, was diagnosed with cancer and she did not want to do chemotherapy and radiation. She did not want a traditional route at all. So she and I worked together and we just took a really deep dive into integrative medicine and alternatives for her. And that's kind of where the journey began.
- [06:45]
A
Prior to Your experience in 2010, did you ever have moments when you felt western medicine was incomplete in either servicing you or your family or even perhaps friends?
- [06:55]
B
Yeah. Yes, a lot. A lot of that. I would get these feelings that certain medications weren't good for people. And, and this is kind of funny. I always thought that I was really super smart. I was figuring things out on my own because I was so smart. And then later I realized, no, guided. You could be smart and guided, I guess.
- [07:22]
A
Of course you can. Of course.
- [07:24]
B
So, so. But I was taking all the credit, you know, at that time. And now I understand that it is, it is multifactorial. But it was, it was when I was starting to realize like this, you know, a drug would come to market and we would start using it. And I'm like, this is not the right dose. I don't think we should escalate this way. And so I would find really smart physicians to work with. I would go into the medical records and pull credentialing files. At the time, they were all housed at the hospital. And I would pull out, you know, an MD, PhD, somebody who could really, like, have some great conversations with me and get behind me supporting my mission. And it just turns out that, you know, my mission was to keep people safe, but it also saved a lot of money. So when I set out, like, for instance, the erythropoietin Alpha products that first came to market, market, we were dose escalating very, very quickly and it was causing harm. I didn't have any evidence of that. It was just a gut feeling. It was a. It was, you know, now I understand very much intuition and intuitive feelings. And so I would write protocols to help us dose escalate, but do it safer. And so those protocols are actually still in place today. And studies came out to show exactly what I was imagining, right? I was saying that, hey, this is too fast, it's too much too fast. And then they started putting black box warnings on and really, you know, putting out safety alerts so that other people would not make those same mistakes. So it was just a very interesting journey and that would happen over and over again. And in the beginning, I was pretty much thinking that, you know, we were thinking our way through it, that we were being very smart and academic and the approach was very scientific and it was but it was also very intuitive. And that's where it clicked. I was like, this isn't just my mind thinking through things logically. This is also a very much a gut feeling. It's an intuitive hit. And so that's when the world started coming together for me also in my aunt's journey and her, in her experience with cancer. And she had breast cancer and it became stage four. So she had in multiple areas of her body. That journey brought us to the shaman. We decided that she integrated her, her therapies. So she did a lot of complementary medicine and alternative medicine. So we did, you know, medicinal mushrooms and things like that. We did juicy, we did aromatherapy, we did energy work, we did pretty much everything put together. And then she decided that she was going to add in some chemotherapy and some radiation and she did surgery. When she did that, her body did not respond very well to the traditional chemotherapy. To me, it's very barbaric the way that we're still utilizing that type of medicine. I know that for some people that works, but you really have to be on board with the belief that it's going to work for you because not everybody does have the same experience. So her experience was that it really compromised her body and multiple systems in her body. And so I happened to have an employee and one of my pharmacies that. And this is very interesting too, she decided, even though she did not believe in medicine, that she was going to work in a pharmacy. So she went to school, she got her pharmacy technician certifications. She and one of my supervisors hires her. And I noticed her eating her lunch in the lunch area one day and I thought, well, that's an interesting lunch. And I immediately identified it as high vibrational. I'm like, she's eating all plant based and some interesting things that not many people at that time were eating. They were eating it today, which is great. So I started up a conversation with her and she told me that her father was a shaman in Peru. And so that's the connection to the shamanic work is through her. Because I shared with her my aunt's story and that we were looking for some. Something more significant than what we were doing. And I had a lot of fear, year of losing my aunt at the time because my, she's my mom's sister and I had lost my mom when I was 29 years old. So I had some, you know, fear of abandonment and, you know, losing her. So I was, you know, driven, if you will, to seek out other alternatives. And it ended up being One of the best experiences of my life and very life changing to work with a shaman on that level. And although my aunt ended up passing away, and that's a whole story in itself, we realized through the journey that it was the journey that was meant to be, that her illness was what triggered my deep dive into plant based medicine, which was ayahuasca in San Pedro. And those experiences brought my awareness, if you will, to a totally different level. So that academic brain was completely shifted. And it felt like, and this is just an analogy, it just felt like I put a new pair of glasses on and I saw the world and all the things around us extremely differently. After going through some ceremonies with the.
- [14:08]
A
Shaman, was the shaman who treated your aunt, the one who exposed you to these ethnobotanical principles? And to that end, were ayahuasca and San Pedro specifically used in your aunt's treatment?
- [14:20]
B
Yes. Yep. So that's where we initially, we were introduced to ayahuasca and plant based medicine. And because he was a traditionally trained shaman, he. He left the United States, went down into Peru, lived there for 20 years, trained with Peruvian shamans down in the deep part of Peru. He had a lot of very traditional approach to ceremony. It was very much an honor. And there were a lot of rituals, you know, honoring Mother Earth, honoring the medicine. It wasn't just, hey, come out to the desert and drink some sappy to me, nasty tasting syrup, lay down and do your work. It wasn't like that at all. It was very much. It was tradition and honoring the rituals and honoring the medicine. And so I have a lot of respect for that and how we were, I guess, exposed and taught to do the same is to honor the medicine.
- [15:40]
A
From an oncological perspective, did it have any impact on your aunt's condition at all?
- [15:45]
B
Did it? Did so in 2014, she made a miraculous recovery. She our first ceremony, we. I had to will her in in a wheelchair. She had her neuropathy in her feet so significant that she could not, she could not stand on her feet. So she had to be willed into the ceremony in a wheelchair. And then we assisted her to a massage table where she stayed at during ceremony on the table while the shaman worked with her. And I did my own work during that ceremony. My aunt, I think it was like about four to six hours. Somewhere in there, we were concluding, you know, everybody was kind of coming to and sharing experiences. And my aunt was able to get off the table with assistance. I mean, she didn't just jump off the table, but she got off the table with our assistance. And she stood up on her feet, and she said, I don't need the chair. And so we were able to walk her back to her room to rest. And from that point forward, she decided no more chemotherapy. And that was a commitment that she made in that ceremony, is that she would no longer. Longer partake in the traditional chemotherapy approach. So it's kind of like an agreement that she made, unfortunately, that summer. So about six months later, she went to her oncologist and she had a PET scan, and she had, you know, her normal check in, you know, her blood work done in a PET scan. And. And her oncologist told her about this great new medication that had come to market. It was actually taken to market much faster. It was taken out of its clinical trial and made available to the public because of the outcomes that they were seeing in the trial. So he was super excited. It was for stage four breast cancer. And so in her mind, I'm not sure if she actually heard him say it was chemotherapy, but in her mind, it was not. And so she got it field, she filled the prescription, and she began taking it, which is, you know, in conflict with her agreement to not do that. And so she and I had many conversations towards the last few months of her life about, you know, your. Your niece is a pharmacist, and you didn't call me and talk to me about this before taking the medicine. And she just said. She called me Robbie. And so she said, robbie. It was just a little white, round pill. I didn't realize. I thought it was for my bones. And so I share this story because I think it's common that, one, we don't utilize the resources that we have around us because, you know, she thought she. You know, she thought she had it. You know, she thought she understood. And two is that, you know, we realized later that there are no mistakes. And so she fully embraced that. That was part of her journey. And we ended up working once again with the shaman. We. We invited him to come into Las Vegas to work with us. And through those ceremonies, things got a lot more intense, especially between she and I, our relationship, understanding our soul contract together. And her role for me was to be the person who brought all this into my world, which I fully honor and respect that. And we. We. The way that we say it is that she gave her life so that I could live. And. And that was with my mom, too. It's. The three of us are definitely connected through a. Through a contract. So my mom went first. She was only 56 when my mom passed, and then my aunt passed at 72. And so we were all kind of on this journey. And as my aunt was exiting and. And transitioning, we, you know, I would read to her every day. I quit my job at the hospital, by the way, which at first she thought was, like, crazy. Like, why would you quit. Quit this great job that you have? And I said, you know what? I don't. I no longer subscribe to that. I no longer subscribe to. You have to be, you know, a W2 employee. And I feel like I want to spend the rest of your days on the planet with you every day, rather than, you know, in the rat race on the hamster wheel and believing that a paycheck is, you know, going to save me or you or anyone else. And I said, and when I decided to enter back into that world, I will do so with. With, you know, I will be rested. I will be maybe even focused on something different. And it ended up turning out quite well for me to do that. So I. I took time off. I was with her. We. We read a lot of books together. I would read to her some Dolores Cannon stuff, some Brian Weiss stuff. It. We just. We just got a chance to connect and bond. And it was. It was quite. It was quite the experience. It was very hard because you bump up against this belief that you'll never see them again. Right. Because that's kind of what I grew up with. But that's not at all what happened. You know, not only did I do I get to see her, it's not. I see her with my eyes. I see her every day in nature. And everything that I do, I feel her. And then we have these little games that we play. So we had this little cartoon that we would watch and laugh. It was the. Oh, gosh. It was the. The little penguin. And he would go to the igloo to get his pancakes. I can't remember what it's called, but. And he would get the pancakes and he would say, more butter. And he wanted more syrup and more butter. And so anytime butter is brought up, I know it's her. Just. Just this little, like, game that we play.
- [22:59]
A
When he was coming to the end of her life cycle, did you or she believe that her experiences with plant medicines, obviously introduced to her by the shaman the two of you contacted, make her transition easier?
- [23:15]
B
Oh, most definitely, because she had already transitioned in ceremony. So what I didn't realize when we started the journey is that ayahuasca is actually means plant of death. And so when. And it's not everybody who goes into Ceremony will experience this. We certainly did. And I. And I have many times that I've gone into Ceremony, transitioned to the other side. And when I watched a documentary on NDEs and they would share their experience and all, it was like maybe five or six people in this documentary that were being interviewed, and each of them had a very different experience. Experience and transitioning out of this, you know, 3D world. I had every single one of their experiences. So I'm like, oh, my gosh. And it didn't even dawn on me that that's what was happening. But so it certainly did impact her transition to be much more peaceful, gentle. And we would talk a lot about the fact that my mom. Mom would be there with her, and we talked about a lot, you know, angels, ancestors coming into the room with her. And towards the end, she could see them. It was like the veil between this world and that world was thinning, and she was able to, you know, see them. And so that's always comforting for people when they're transitioning.
- [24:54]
A
So when you restarted your career after her departure, was this when you. You started to see your movement forward in the professional world as a unified path instead of two parallel roads?
- [25:06]
B
Yes, that's exactly what happened. So. So prior to that, you know, I always had, like, salt lamps and oil diffusers and crystals in my office, and people would say, what is this? You know, because back in the day, that was hippie dippy, right? They didn't. They didn't know what it was, you know, And I'm. I'm saying, you know, hey, can I. Can I rewrite the menus for the hospital? Like, we are overcooking food. This isn't even food to me. That's not healing food. And they thought I was a little nutty, but I thought the kitchen and the food was more important than the medicine. But that's still not totally come to fruition in the hospitals. But when I went back in, so I re. Entered the business world and the world of medicine, I went back in. I was working in the pharmacy, and I didn't realize at the time that the CEO, hospital CEO that had hired me was getting ready to retire. And he said, well, I hired you because your skill set is very strong in communication and executive presence. And I would like for you to come into the C Suites and begin learning how to be an executive administrator. So that's kind of the transition out of kind of clinical world into that world, which opened up a whole Nother journey of me being able to influence the programs and services that we were offering. So for instance, you know, being a hospital administrator or CEO, you know, I said I would like to have our morning stand up meeting outside on the grass. And I invite whoever would like to take off their shoes to take off their shoes and join me on the grass. And then I began teaching about grounding my leadership training for my team was, you know, based on the four agreements, you know, very subtle, very soft, but very powerful, very powerful teachings. And then we got into breath work. I would invite speakers in to work with my team. And then I began inviting people to join me in writing protocols for aromatherapy, pet therapy, music therapy, which is a lot more palatable because still at that time, and this is like 2016 to 2019, at that time, you know, people really weren't getting the energy medicine part, you know, who I found to be more on board with that are the folks in hospice and palliative care. They seem to have this infinity or an alignment with it and understand that a lot more. So then I wrote a palliative care program and I brought that into the hospital because I thought, okay, well we can get more like minded people speaking the same language and verbiage and then this will grow. And that is exactly what's happening, is it's beginning to grow.
- [28:31]
A
Was there one therapy that surprised even your skeptics?
- [28:36]
B
Yeah, you know, it's sound vibrational therapy is, is so very powerful. So I, you know, the singing bowls, you know, bringing in the Tibetan singing bowls. And so even today in my hospitals we will offer that for folks. And, and when I feel, because I feel the energy when I go down on the units and I'm around the nurses. So to me my focus is the caregivers and the people going in and touching the patients because I say be mindful of the energy that you bring. These folks are very sensitive and very vulnerable. We need to be our best selves, we need to be grounded, we need to be mindful of our energy going into the rooms. And there's plenty of books and documentation on this. This Jill Bolty Taylor wrote the. I think it's my stroke of insight. So when, when people are get being inquisitive, I will buy that book for them or encourage them to listen to it because it really does identify with the healthcare worker because of her experience and in being in hospitals.
- [29:51]
A
So have you recognized any qualitative clinical results proving that patients responded differently, more positively when these modalities were introduced into their treatment? Regimen.
- [30:04]
B
So, yes, I mean, it's anecdotal from where I sit. Right. So. Because we're not doing any. We're not publishing or we're not doing any case studies, but I know lots of foundations that are. The Chi foundation is a wonderful foundation that. That does the clinical trials and publishes and they work with great researchers. But anecdotally, I mean, the patients will say, I just feel so much calmer. I feel so much better. And you can see that they're not asking for as much medication for anxiety and pain. It also, while we're taking care of the patient, we're taking care of the patient's caregivers, so the nurses get to benefit. So, for instance, two, three weeks ago, we brought in a gentleman who does the Native American flute. And, you know, this was the second or third time that we invited him in to play. And it was for a patient who had her PhD in Native American studies, and she was struggling her prognosis, so her family had asked if we could do. If they could do some things for her. And so when we got wind of this, our patient advocate came and said, well, can't we participate? I know somebody who plays the flute. And, you know, I think that would be. That would be very congruent with what she believes and her life journey and what she studied. So we did that, and the staff went bananas. They just loved it. They're like, oh, we need that guy back. Because it's very soothing, you know, and. And it's not sound. Vibrational therapy is not just going to take care of one person. It's going to take care of everybody in that space. So that's one of the reasons I love that. And it's, it's. It's very powerful.
- [32:03]
A
It is. Do you think other hospitals are ready for a deeper integration of metaphysical practices?
- [32:09]
B
I do. I do. And they're doing it. So Scripps in San Diego, Cleveland Clinic, I think even the Mayo clinics are now offering. I know that MD Anderson, when you go in for your chemotherapy, you're offered acupuncture services, and you're offered maybe some reflexology and things like that. Here in Las Vegas, you. UMC also has. They have a tranquility program that offers energy medicine in their tranquility, they also offer aromatherapy. And I believe just recently they put in some healing gardens into their space. Even though they're right there downtown, in a very congested and intense, energetic place, they have managed to build some. Some sacred space within there. And so I do believe that it is coming. It's just, it's slower than I would like to see it. But we still, even as leaders in, in this medicine world, we have the ability to touch lives. And it's not just patient lives, but it's the lives of the, the caregivers, it's the lives of, of those around us.
- [33:30]
A
Very well said. Now you have trained extensively in healing, touch and other energy medicine modalities, obviously. How do you explain in scientific or empirical terms what's happening in these sessions?
- [33:43]
B
Yeah, so, so one of the ways that I like to kind of break it down just. And it's very simplistic, it's really oversimplified, but that works. Chemo electric beings. So our bodies are mostly water, made up of water and then we're electric, right? Our heart is electric, our central nervous system is electric. We have electrolytes. So, you know, potassium can start the heart or stop the heart, depending on the dosage. So it's an electrolyte that can do that. So the way that I explain that is, you know, water conducts electricity. And because water, we are chemi. Electric beings, we are very, very sensitive to current, to electricity and frequency. And so I explain it that way to, to help them identify. Then we can kind of get into a little bit of the chakras and how we have, you know, these wills, these vortexes, these will energy wheels going on and spinning off of their meridians. And people, people really understand acupuncture because it's been around so long and I think it's been, it's been quite effective. And so I try to bring it back to that, you know, Chinese medicine. So, and then explain to them that your breath, your breath, the way that you're breathing is going to also have an impact on how you are running energy in the body and that your energy goes beyond the physical skin and out into your, the levels, your biofield and explain that. And that's why, you know, and people, people are so smart and they're already, they already understand it, they just don't have words for it. So when I say, you know, when an angry person walks into the room, you can feel that they're angry before they even open their mouth. And they're like, yeah, yeah, you know, they really identify with that. Yeah. And I'm like, okay, same thing. You're, you're sensing their energy before you're sensing the words. Like we speak more with our biofield than we do with the words that are coming out of our mouths.
- [36:05]
A
That's absolutely correct. Do you see as a clinician, measurable effects like changes in vitals or biochemistry on a regular basis or infrequently, you.
- [36:16]
B
Know, because I am administration, so I'm not always at the bedside. I just hear about all the good stuff that's going on out there. But I know that that is true because it's all documented. There's so many publications documenting that. And more and more people are reaching for breath, work, work and visual realization, work and you know, guided meditations to bring themselves into a relaxation state. Because we live in a world that's really, really stressed. And if you subscribe, you can go down the rabbit hole of fear, right? You can do that, but it won't serve you. And they're certainly starting to make the connection between stress, inflammation and disease. So I think that piece right there, that connection for people is becoming very real. And they're, they're, you know, they're not sleeping as well. They're, they're understanding that these things are helping. Right. And so I think that as we move forward on this journey together on this planet, that I think more and more people are turning to these modalities and these other alternative ways to live better. Right. Live happier, live more peaceful.
- [37:49]
A
Yeah. A big part of living more peacefully is communicating the value of that to individuals. How do you personally balance language for skeptics versus belief believers?
- [37:58]
B
So that's an interesting question. I never take on the skeptics because to me, I'm not gonna waste my time or energy. I do send them love though, I do. I, you know, because I'm like, one day some life is gonna bring you something and it's just going to like, you know, it, it's gonna jolt you into, you know, some seeking out a different way, a different approach. So skeptics, you know, will say things like, you know, I just don't understand. I think that's a waste of money. Let's just take, let's just take aromatherapy, right? Essential oils and which I just love that, you know, it kind of, you know, it burst into this massive industry where we're almost over utilizing, you know, this, these plant based products. But what I do like about it is that it bypasses the logical brain. So their logic center is completely bypassed. So I'm like, it doesn't matter if you believe this or not, it will still work for you. So, you know, if you want to stand there with your fists clenched and, you know, your face puffed up and be angry, then, yeah, you're gonna, you're still gonna be angry and your heart rate's still going to be elevated and things like that. However, you know, if you want us to sit back and really be, you know, neutral and be open to the idea that maybe you don't know. Right. Because we don't always know. And the other thing that this journey has taught me, especially in the shaman at work, as well as the Healing Touch program, is, you know, be unattached to the outcome. So when I enter into, you know, a connection with a client or any, any situation where, you know, I'll be working with energy and whatnot, I am not attached to their outcome. And that has been a game changer because when you, you are really surrendering to whatever is going to happen for their highest and best, and you come in love and you come, come in grounded, centered and connected, I believe that whatever is going to happen is going to be for the highest and best. It's going to flow. Energy goes where it wants to go. Right? And so even if they don't believe, they still get something out of it. And it will be, it'll be just like the littlest thing I remember, I, you know, I had a, a client sent her husband to me and he, you know, he's a lawyer. So again, very, very factual, very, very black and white there. And so, you know, he had a relaxation response with, you know, sound vibrational therapy. We did some energy work, but at the end of his session, I began getting these really strong intuitive visions. And so I said, hey, you know, I know you're really worried about these baseboards that you're going to put on your house. And, you know, I just, I just want you to know, like, you know, prioritize your family, prioritize your loved ones and really focus on them. And then the. You'll be able to put the baseboards on with a grateful heart. You know, it won't be a job, it'll be something that you're enjoying. And he was blown away that I knew about the baseboards. Right. So it's just like the little subtle things like that that, you know, he may have gone through the whole session, you know, not believing, just being relaxed, which is great too. But it's the little things like that that are, like, how did she know that? You know, like, maybe there is something to this.
- [42:07]
A
So do you feel that one day energy medicine might sit alongside pharmacokinetics as a recognized science?
- [42:15]
B
Yes, I do.
- [42:17]
A
Are there steps being made now towards that?
- [42:19]
B
Yes. So, so, for instance, I chose Healing Touch Program because it's accredited. And I do believe that they will be able to bring it into, into medicine and it will dovetail into treatment plans and goals of care. So it should be a part of everything that we do. And what I do love about that particular program is it focuses on self care first. So, and, and if you get into any of your nursing and pharmacy and in medicine, our physicians are trained. We need to take care of ourselves so that we can take care of other people. And so it does right into, very nicely into that concept and then do no harm. Most of what we're doing in this particular arena is, is not harmful at all. There, there are very few contraindications. And so I feel like, you know, it just, it's a nice compliment. And what I would like to see, I would really like to see as she is less pharmaceutical because I really feel like our planet could use a little less toxicity, right? Chemicals. We need to get, we need to look at our food. We need to look at everything that we're doing. Along the way. I was, I was struggling with why so many people were low in magnesium. Like, why are magnesium levels so low and what's going on? You know, it's causing, it's causing some, some issues. And, and one day I woke up and I was thinking, well, you know, those proton pump inhibitors block the ability to absorb magnesium. And it's not that everyone's on a proton pump inhibitor, but there's enough people because it went over the counter, right? So full access by the public. I'm like, I bet it's in the soil. And when it's in the soil, it's the, the plants are being affected. So the, the plant, the plant that we're eating has less magnesium. Now I don't have any scientific proof, right. It's just these little things that go off my head that kind of, you know, put the pieces of the puzzle together. And so, so getting back to my comment about if we could just use a lot less chemical and understand how to use plants and natural resources to assist us in life and replace one for the other. So replace on something that's maybe toxic for something that's less toxic or more organic, more natural, I think that would be our best bet.
- [45:15]
A
Well, and on that topic of what kinds of proton pump inhibitors people are or are not taking, if I'm not mistaken, I don't believe digested omeprazole magnesium, number one, would lose all of its efficacy. And number two, through recycled water might be consumed and pharmacokinetically active Inpatients who are then filling back into the wastewater recycled water solution.
- [45:39]
B
Yes. So that is exactly what is happening is that we are really, we're really a toxic and I'll call it Mother Earth. We have really polluted Mother Earth with our plastics, with our pharmaceuticals, with, you know, the things that we've done to. And it was all in the, hopefully in the spirit of making life easier. Right. You know, plastics, for instance, were supposed to make life easier and you know, synthetic materials and things like that. And, and if you think about it, you know, they're like, oh well that mattress needs to be sprayed with like some, the fire retardant spray because you know, we're trying to keep everybody safe. Right. But in so doing it, we're not, we're causing a whole nother problem. So I would just love to see people come together with like mindedness of hey, let's, let's do a little cleanup, let's. And it is already happening. It's just, I would like to see it on a massive scale for people to really understand what is causing, you know, so much disease and hardship for our, our bodies and our minds. I mean look at the rate of dementia. You know, it's, it's, this is not benign. No, what is happening there is not benign.
- [47:04]
A
Not at all. Beyond physical medicine and energy medicine, you also serve as a counselor. How does listening, presence and human connection fit into your healing model?
- [47:14]
B
So for me, just, just like, you know, it's, it's very informal, like coaching for me because, because I am a leader. So I have a lot of people coming to me, sharing with me, wanting advice, wanting different ways to um, to approach and problem solve, um, that I always bring in a little bit of everything that I've learned along the way. And I intuitively, when I'm saying, sitting with somebody, I'm intuitively discerning what it is that's going to speak to their heart. So I, I integrate things in. And I always emphasize self care because self care is where the, it, it's, it's the basis and foundation of, of where it's all at, right? It, you must take care of yourself first. But before you can come to a situation and it can be as simple as teaching somebody how to ground, you know, how to take off their shoes and get outside and into the grass and, or go lean up against a tree, or just be mindful and present in the morning, drink your coffee outside and watch the birds and listen to them start your day, you know, with that.
- [48:38]
A
So do you see? Obviously Self care, but also counseling as a kind of medicine style in itself.
- [48:45]
B
I do. I do. So my sister is. I'm very fortunate to have a sister who's in, who's in therapy, psychotherapy. She's a mft. And I oftentimes will ask her, are you guys seeing these modalities being brought into your field? And it is. Exactly what is happening is that the field of psychotherapy and counseling and they're seeing a lot of, you know, obviously intuitiveness, right? I mean, that was always there. We just never called it that. But they have intuitive. Their gut, right? Their gut tells them things, but they're also incorporating a lot of breath work, a lot of visualization. So those are kind of like the smaller things. But now we're starting to see the psilocybin, right? We're starting to see ketamine, psilocybin, things like that being also brought in to assist. And sometimes ayahuasca, you know, whether it's, it's. What do they call that? Guided. And, you know, they have, you know, professionals on site to assist. But I am, for all of that, you know, everybody, everybody gets to choose their, their journey and how they're going to do their healing. And I believe that it's, it's going to serve many people in a very positive way. Now, there's a lot of skeptics in that, and there's also this whole piece where you're bumping up against something that hasn't been legalized, right? So let's just take psilocybin. So people are microdosing it and they're doing a phenomenal job at that. And it's, it's, it's dropping the need to go on to Xanax or an Ativan or something like that, a benzodiazepine. So, so to me, if that's helpful and it's a plant, let's, let's put some, you know, some safety measures around it and let's teach people how to do things safely. Let's talk about it, right? Let's not act like it doesn't exist and people are doing it regardless of what government or regulation says. Right?
- [51:05]
A
But there is a bit of social friction there because advocates for substances like psilocybin and in earlier days, advocates for cannabis would say that the broader application of these things would start the process of the commercialization and therefore gut the uses, take away the value, the benefit. Do you feel that that's a likelihood or not something we should really worry about?
- [51:32]
B
You know what I think I think that it's always going to be a likelihood, right, because you, you have people that would like to utilize substances recreationally for fun, and then you have this group of people that need it for medicine. They need it to be therapeutic. So I always believe that in everything moderation. Right. So we're, I think we would always see that, yes, there are, there's going to be probably, you know, a certain portion of the population that will misuse it, overuse it, and, and maybe even get themselves into some trouble. Right. You know, you think about the vulnerable populations. And for me, when it comes to these substances, I think about, you know, the adolescents. Right. The teenagers, the young adults. So yeah, I do, I do think that that, that is true. So again, you know, safety, proceed with caution. And definitely education, education is key, but.
- [52:40]
A
Frequently in, I think an under supply for a lot of these communities, you know, even the idea of energy as a healing modality isn't something that gets discussed enough. To that end, you know, the idea of healing through energy modalities, something we've discussed at great length, usually has a personal, personal measure. Have you applied any healing modalities to correct your own illness or your own injury?
- [53:09]
B
Yeah, yeah, pretty much on the daily. But I would say that the most, the most profound for me has been through being able to regulate my heart rate, especially in stressful situations. Like, you know, I used to not like to do a lot of public speaking and now that is not even an issue for me at all. I can regulate my heart rate through breath work and visualization and it's quite effective. But the most profound experience, I think for me was when we took Auntie Lou for the first ceremony, and that was with San Pedro at that time. And I didn't share this in the very first time we've talked about it. I myself was being worked up for breast cancer. I had a lump that was found in my left breast. And I had the diagnostics were done. I had gone to a surgeon to start discussing what the treatment plan, what my options were and what they had decided that they found. And the surgeon said to me, I don't like your studies. I would like them repeated. I have a very specific radiology clinic that I want you to go to that does breast tissue very, very well. So I said, okay. So in between the appointment with the surgeon and the repeat of the diagnostics, I did ceremony with the shaman and my aunt. And in that ceremony I realized it was brought to me that my breast, the, the lump that they were calling a lump, was Actually an energy block. And it was full of grief. Grief because I had lost my mom, and I was, you know, so close with my mom and. And best friends with my mom, and I lost her so suddenly and so young that it had. It had stuck right there in my left breast. And so during that ceremony, I worked through my idea of what that was, because in our minds, we are constantly wanting to see and be with, you know, our loved one who is transitioned. And so when I could see and be with her in the ceremony, and she was saying to me, I don't need you to miss me. I'm with you. It just. It brought it all together, and I was able to release the grief. And from that point forward, my agreement from that ceremony was that I would no longer see her as gone. I would just see her as transitioned into different form, and that I would always communicate with her, call upon her. She could still be part of my life. And so, fast forwarding to going to the second diagnostic appointment. I went in, I paid my copay. They do the studies. They were supposed to put in markers that day for the surgeon. And so the radiologist comes into the room, and she says, what are you doing here? I'm like, what? That's a really odd way to enter the room. And she said, what are you doing here? There is nothing wrong with your breast. I go, what? I was shocked. And she was so upset because she thought it was a medical error. She was so upset. She said, I'm having them refund your. Your copay. This is ridiculous. And I'm like, okay, if you say it is so, you know, I put on my clothes and out the door getting my refund. And I followed back up with the surgeon. And she says, I don't know what happened. I think that their original studies were in error. And I'm like, okay. You know, I wasn't about to kind of go down the rabbit hole of, well, I know what happened. I know I was up all night in a ceremony. I know exactly what happened. But, yeah, so that was probably one of the most profound healings that I.
- [57:48]
A
Experienced, which clearly was pivotal. And so I think that's a fantastic anecdote to really push home the message that there's more to energy, work, and alternative approaches to medicine than meets the eye. Hopefully this is something that will land with future generations a way differently than it landed with ours. What an honor it's been to share this time with you, Robin. I always enjoy chatting with you and hearing your perspective. Thank you very much. And I hope to talk to you again very soon.
- [58:19]
B
Oh, thank you so much, Stacy. I really appreciate you and I'm honoring your work and how you're bringing it out to the world because I think that is so powerful, such an honor.
- [58:31]
A
That's very kind of you. Have a wonderful day. I'll talk to you soon.
- [58:34]
B
Okay. All right. Bye. Bye.
- [58:42]
A
As our time with Robin Hagar comes to a close, what Lingers is not simply her remarkable story, but the invitation she carries to live medicine as love, to honor the body as energy, and to remember that self care is the root of all care. Her words remind us that healing isn't confined to the hospital ward or the pharmacy shelf. It flows through ceremony, through presence, through the subtle vibrations we share with every breath and every touch. May we take forward the courage to question what we've been taught, the openness to honor what we've forgotten, and the humility to let healing be as mysterious as it is miraculous. Before we part ways today, if this conversation stirred something in you or offered a spark of insight, would you take just a moment to share that light back? Leave us a rating or review on Apple Podcasts it's one of the simplest ways to help the observable unknown reach new seekers and fellow travelers. Your words matter more than you know, and they help this circle grow. Until next time, remember, what appears unknowable often stands right before us, waiting to be observed through both the lens of science and the wisdom of spirit. This is Dr. Juan Carlos Rey of crow's cupboard.com inviting you to look deeper into the observable unknown.