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- [00:04]
Dr. Juan Carlos Rey
Welcome to the observable unknown, where science meets the unexplained. I'm Dr. Juan Carlos Rey of crowscubboard.com and after two decades of working at the intersection of comparative religious studies, grief counseling, anthropology, quantum mechanics, and consciousness studies, I've discovered that our most profound human experiences often exist in the space between what we can prove and what we can perceive. In this podcast, we'll explore the measurable influences of immeasurable forces, those hidden factors that shape our reality but often escape our traditional scientific frameworks. From the latest research in consciousness studies to the ancient wisdom that's now finding validation in neuroscience and quantum physics, we're here to bridge the gap between academic rigor and spiritual insight. Whether you're a skeptic, a seeker, or simply curious about the deeper mechanics of human experience, you're in the right place. Together, we'll examine the evidence, challenge our assumptions, and explore what happens when we dare to look beyond the obvious. Joining me for this episode is someone who stands at a profound convergence, that of clinical insight and compassionate humanity, Dr. Wesley W. Detweiler. Based in Palm Springs, California. Dr. Detweiler is a licensed psychologist and counselor who has dedicated his practice to supporting individuals navigating the labyrinth of addiction, identity and mental health. Today, we explore what moves beneath the surface. The unconscious tides of shame, desire, longing and ancestral pain. We'll look at how those invisible currents can shape or stall our evolution. Together, we'll peer into the shadows, not to judge them, but to understand them. And perhaps even discover the sacred alchemy that lies at the heart of recovery.
- [02:13]
Interviewer
Let's begin. It's always very good to see you and to hear you. I hope that you've been well. It's been quite a while since we've chatted. I want to. It has been a minute. It absolutely has. I wanted to dive right in and ask something I'm certain you are very, very clear on and probably approach every day with many of your clients. It's a look at the invisible roots of addiction. In your experience, what unseen emotional or cultural forces most often lie beneath addiction? How do you think these differ from the kinds of problems that might drive someone to other kinds of behaviors that that might be erosive or might be challenging in their private life, Whether that's leading them to impatience or insomnia, difficulty with interpersonal relationships. What do you see as unique about addiction and where it forms?
- [03:16]
Dr. Wesley W. Detweiler
Well, that's a very multi pronged question to answer and to dive into. I think it's a really great question. I Think we have to first start by defining what is addiction and what is an addiction to one person, or it might be addictive to one person, might not be addictive or addiction to the other. I think addiction, if we look addiction is defined by a behavior that becomes problematic or interferes with one's ability to successfully navigate the world on their terms. You know, then addiction can be some of those corrosive behaviors that you just mentioned, right? It can be impulsivity, it can be anxiety, it can be shopping, it can be sex. It can be all kinds of different things. When a behavior or a. Like a. We talk about sometimes process addictions or chemical dependence or chemical addictions or drugs, when, when they start to interfere with our ability to live our life normally, then it can. Then that's when it becomes an addiction. And I think that at its root cause also addiction, because it can be defined or can be looked at a. An overly used coping mechanism or coping strategy that isn't successful. So kind of doing this, doing something over and over again, expecting an outcome or result and not getting that outcome and result, and yet continuing to do that behavior. I. So I think as an opening, I think that kind of touches on some of. Some of your questions. And I mean, does that kind of, kind of build upon what you're. What you're looking for?
- [05:02]
Interviewer
It does. It absolutely does. And I'm. I'm only looking for the wisdom that you can bring to the conversation. So thank you very much for that. I am struck at how much your description sounded like the sort of circumstances surrounding the development of other disorders like OCD and add. There appears to be a parallel there. Do you recognize that in your practice? And to that end, do you see differing causes in members of different communities? Whether we're talking about ethnic communities, sexual orientations, or differently marginalized communities? Are there differences in the model that you see for each patient that you approach?
- [05:44]
Dr. Wesley W. Detweiler
So, you know, I think it. Well, you mentioned OCD and add. I think OCD and ADD are, Are kind of. Those are closely aligned in terms of neurodivergence and in anxiety. And, you know, we, you know, addiction, people with ocd, people with add, and people with depression, like all of us can be, Have. Have a history of addiction. Again, as if, as you have somebody with OCD or add, as they start to engage the world and they look for ways of dealing with the world on their terms, sometimes we can fall into addictive patterns of beh. We can use drugs or alcohol or for example, as a way to help us to overcome Some of the, you know, the focus or attention or the ruminating thoughts or whatnot. So we can both can be present at the same time. And I think that you just said, you know, different models for different groups. And I think that, you know, when we're talking about multicultural concepts or multi multicultural approaches, I think that we always want to be aware of what is, what is, what is the history of the individual that's in the session? You know, what are some of the, what are some of the norms around? You know, what are some of the norms around? I'm not going to say drug use or whatnot, but I think for the most part the model of how do we approach addiction? Let's say if we're talking about chemical addiction or, or alcoholism, there's different approaches like the 12 step model or a smart recovery model or Dharma recovery, or you might have different religious groups that have, that apply a religious doctrine. There's different pathways to seeking solution around addiction. But I think the common thread for a lot of these approaches is that there's kind of something greater, something like, like a power that is external, that helps people to forge a path towards enlightenment and, and kind of seeking. Seeking that ability for themselves to make a change that might not otherwise have been possible. So again, I think hopefully that answers kind of your question or kind of.
- [08:13]
Interviewer
It does, it does. Thank you for that. So that's an insightful piece. Do the forces that you think lead a person to their recovery or a patient to whatever salvation they're seeking seem to you mirror forms of the same forces that led them to their addiction in the first place? Ancestral, societal, developmental. When we're looking at a complex weaving of these three features, fields of thought, do you recognize that a patient or an individual falls victim perhaps to societal standards or maybe familial relationships, and that results in the same addiction that can be cured using a model formed in the same forge, if that makes sense.
- [08:57]
Dr. Wesley W. Detweiler
So when you were asking that question, kind of the image that came to me, addiction is kind of like you're in a boat and you're in the middle of the water. And it did. And an addiction is like taking a spoon and attempting to row the boat using the spoon. You're. It's. It's seems like it's going to work, but it's not effective. It's. It's addiction like alcoholism or drug addiction. It becomes the mechanism of the tool by which we start to deal with life's problems, like our feelings, our emotions, anything we can. It becomes the tool that we use to cope with that. And until we're given a better tool or until we're, until we're, we learn how to use the row or the, or we're going to continue to be stuck in the cycle of using the spoon. And so I think that treating addiction is about giving people better tools so they can, when they're confronted with feelings or emotions that are difficult or life on life's terms, they're better able to get to where they want to go. And, and I think that it, you know, all of us along the way, I think people who are addicts, I'm, I'm an addict. I've gonna be sober 10 years in September.
- [10:16]
Interviewer
Congratulations.
- [10:18]
Dr. Wesley W. Detweiler
Thank you. Somewhere along the line, somewhere along my path, I picked up a spoon instead of an ore and I started rowing, attempting to roll through life. And, and I, and I literally wasn't getting anywhere. And it wasn'. I. And trust me, I, I tried my. I. I wrote my heart out. Like I just kept going, I'm sure. And it wasn't until I was able to go into treatment and go. And, and really the 12 step model for me was a recipe for elegant living. And it gave me the tools for me to finally get traction in my life and to kind of get to where I am today. So, um, so yeah, you just left.
- [11:01]
Interviewer
A bit of a nugget I want to get clarity on. You viewed the 12 step program as a nugget. I'm sorry, I used the word nugget. You said as a formula or a recipe for elegant living. Could you clarify that for me?
- [11:13]
Dr. Wesley W. Detweiler
So the. For I always say this. I think that the 12 step program is a recipe for elegant living. I think the Cornerstones of the 12 STEP program are unity, fellowship and service. So it kind of gives us a way of living a life where we live a life examined. We look at like, how are we operating? Have we heard anyone? Are we of service to those who we could help? And it allows us to move in the world in a way that we're conscious of spiritual principles that allow us to show up for ourselves and for other people and to continue this cycle of recovery where we give back what we have gained. Right. So for me, I got sober through. I learned to love myself again through seeing myself through the eyes of other people in recovery that loved me and taught me to love myself. And by going to meetings, you know, if I don't go to meetings and I don't participate in this cycle of recovery, then there's no meetings and there's no place for people to go that are struggling, that need solutions. So it's this beautiful cycle that gives back to itself over and over and over again where we're able to create a home for people that need solution. And, and it's more complex than that. I'm simple simplifying something that is a lot more complex. But it's, it's certainly a recipe for, you know, I think for me, I had such a hard time with adulting growing up. I, I, I, I, I struggled as I also am a gay man. I was out very young. I knew my, I knew I was gay very young. And I also knew that it was something I needed to hide. And I think for me, early on, drugs and alcohol became a way for me to get the courage to face the world. And it worked for me until it didn't. And so I found this whole adulting concept to be very difficult. Even though I was able to go to school, I was able to, you know, work on my degree, I was able to get a PhD in psychology, believe it or not. I still felt there was this nagging emptiness inside of me that I was attempting to fulfill with alcohol and drugs. And when I got sober and I started to engage a program of recovery, it was like, you know, the education prior to that, my education, my family life, my love and desire to help others, all of those were operating in a silo. When I got sober, they finally all started to work in concert to help me to become the man that I, I always wanted to become, but wasn't able to become because the alcoholism and the drug abuse was standing in, in my way. So essentially, I was able to get out of my own way, follow this program of recovery, this recipe for elegant living. And here, 10 years later, it's transformed my life in ways that I could never have imagined.
- [14:19]
Interviewer
That's really beautiful, the concept of integration and community being the solution to the problem. That does necessarily, though, bring me back to an idea that frequently I've heard bandied about in different circles, that the very cornerstones of community are some of the ills tied to the problem of addiction. But before I get to that, I wanted to ask you about your personal low. Where your turning point was, at what point, and if you don't mind sharing details of that story, did you decide you can't continue along the lifestyle that you were living when you, you reached rock bottom?
- [14:58]
Dr. Wesley W. Detweiler
Absolutely. Let me. One of the things that I feel like is really fascinating is the opposite of addiction is not sobriety. The opposite of addiction is connection. Connection is the thing that we seek when we're. When we're. When we're in our addiction, we're seeking connection. Oftentimes we find a false sense of connection through the communities of. Of. Of. Of addiction that we participate in. And that's just kind of an aside for me, I believe. It's kind of a funny story. I. When I. When I really, truly found my solution was I. I went to burning man in 20, in 2015. And I knew, going to Burning Man, I remember writing in a journal. The only thing I wrote in the whole journal on the way to Burning man was, I hope I find what I'm looking for essentially, is what I wrote something very small, very, very short. And the Burning man experience was incredible. The being in this environment where the rules were altered, there was this love bubble. It was. It was just askew. Is life askew? It wasn't necessarily that it was full of drugs and chaos and sex. It wasn't necessarily anything like that, you know, those were present. But it was more full of love and understanding and all these incredible people. And when, you know, you're just able to engage people where they were at. And towards the end of that experience, the people that I was with, we all did some acid. And because of all the love and experience I've had during that week, and then to do the acid when I did it, the. The trip that I had, it was a journey where the child in me, the young, the young, you know, if you will, Christian boy in me that was so full of purpose and hope for the future, was looking at the adult I had become and was just disgusted with the adult that I had become. I was estranged from my family. I was probably going to be arrested if I didn't stop in the behaviors that I was engaging in. I was. I was being reckless. I was being careless with my health. I was being. Being careless with the drug use that I was using. I was, you know, being incredibly careless with my life. And I was disgusted and so disgusted that the whole next day after that, that journey, I was tearful and despondent and inconsolable. And we returned from. That was on like a Saturday. Sunday. Monday we were back from Bernie Man. And the following Friday, I was in treatment. And that was the beginning of my sobriety journey. So it was this incredible moment of clarity that came through a psychedelic experience that allowed me to see myself clearly for the first time and to see that there's a path in front of me that I can take or I will probably expire. And it was just again, this beautiful. It was actually, I would say beautiful now, but at the time it wasn't so beautiful. It was terrifying.
- [18:26]
Interviewer
Terrifying, but transformative. Yeah, terrifying, Absolutely changing. So to that end, obviously it changes the course of the conversation a bit. I believe based on what you're saying that you have an idea. Some of these transformative events possibly precipitated by the use of hallucinogens, maybe other substances could in some cases be the key in showing a patient, a client, an individual, where they might ascend from their depth, whatever that depth looks like, whatever the rock bottom has been. Do you believe in the use of hallucinogens in either a therapeutic model or in a spiritual model?
- [19:08]
Dr. Wesley W. Detweiler
I mean I, you know, whether or not I believe in hallucinogens in use, you know, the use, the therapeutic use of hallucinogens, like I, my own story, in my own story, obviously the use of LSD was, it was, it was, it wasn't intended to be a therapeutic use, but it certainly was. And I've seen it as a psychologist, I've seen ketamine, psilocybin and LSD and all of these different psychedelics used incredibly effectively. But I've also seen people abuse them. You know, people abuse ketamine and whatnot.
- [19:44]
Interviewer
Absolutely.
- [19:45]
Dr. Wesley W. Detweiler
It really depends on the individual. It really can't be a case by case basis this and I think that, that, you know, it really depends on the individual. Right. Somebody that has, has a history of, of drug abuse and drug addiction needs to be very, very careful about what solutions they're seeking in terms of the use of psychedelics and, and, and very cautious and, and you know, it, you know, what, what works for one person may or may not work for the other. I, I defin world that needs to be continued to explored and I see a lot of hope and a lot of future in the use of psilocybin, MDMA as well. I can see how, and ketamine, obviously, I think I can see how it could be really beneficial, but it also needs to be weighed. There's also, I think that, you know, when we take, I think the ceremony of how these drugs are used and utilized is also super important and I think that that's something that is often left out is, you know, for me I was at Burning man, which could, you know, Burning man is essentially this huge ceremony. There was this whole week of leading up to it that was around self reflection and, and kind of being in an environment where I wasn't quite myself. It was this, it really set the stage, I think, for this constant, like looking at myself and examining and examining myself, who I was in this new environment that wasn't like anything else. And then to cap that off with the lsd, it just, I think everything came together very beautifully for me and I'm very lucky. But that's not to say that somebody that just pops some LSD in a normal day will have the same experience, nor should they expect to. So it's a very complex, I think, question, but again, one that I think we really need to continue to explore instead of not explore it.
- [21:44]
Interviewer
Because in your opinion, every usable tool should be made available to the patient. I'm presuming, based upon what you're saying, but each patient's path, obviously, being so unique, is going to require different kinds of assistance and they might have different thresholds, they might have different capacities. So it's very insightful and I have to agree with you. I'm a big fan of Dr. Rick Strassman. His research into the use of dimethyltryptamine is fantastic and as it applies to addiction is really monumental in many respects. Mask, Mask. In your opinion, how do the myths that we unconsciously inherit about ourselves? For instance, you were talking about the idea of you as a younger Christian male, especially around masculinity, sexuality, or worth, generally speaking, shape our inner world to either fuel or resist addiction. You gave us a great sketch in the model of you as a younger version of yourself, reflecting on the older version. Have you seen this with patients that you speak to or even friends and family members where the myth that they've been obeying is something that, because it was perhaps granted to them or inherited by them regarding their, their sexual orientation, regarding their gender identity, their. Their value, did that shape their inner world in such a way that precipitated their addiction? Or maybe you archived something and then restored it so that they could resist addiction within themselves, in yourself.
- [23:15]
Dr. Wesley W. Detweiler
Yeah. It's interesting that you, you. I love the terminology that you're using. The myth of, of you. The myth that we tell ourselves. The myth. The truth. The. The myth of the truth. Right. Like, so we. I think that when working with people who, who are seeking solution from alcohol or, or drugs or addiction, I think that we often have some underlying core beliefs. So. And we often have some plethora of negative self talk. And I think that off the. The addiction can often be operationalized in terms of how we speak to ourselves or how we think about ourselves. And I. You'll find that a lot of addicts start off with some incredibly destructive internal dialogues that, that really contribute to the spiraling and the, this lack of, the lack of control and the sense of helplessness that then feeds the addictive behavior. And so really, I think for me, what was true was coming into my solution, coming into my sobriety. These, these tapes and these, these scripts and these myths of my worth, right? I'm, I'm, I'm not worthy. I'm a loser. I'm, I'm. This, I'm. That like, constantly berated me. And in the past, I think I really listened to those and those really, those really worked well to isolate me even further and keep me in my addiction. When I was in solution and in my sobriety, I operationalized that self talk as my addiction. So as those thoughts and those feelings came in, I almost, it was, I, I, I attempted to repel them by saying, no, that's my addiction. I'm not thinking that way anymore. And again, those are myths. Those are not true. I am worthy. I am. People do want my company. I am worthy of love. I do have value. And at first, all of that seemed incredibly false and made up and, and farcical. It felt like it was like, you know, Jack Candy, Saturday live, right? I am good enough. I am smart enough, and people like me, right? But I had to keep repeating that and really reinforcing that. And after time, it has become more dis, More incongruent for me to have a negative self thought. That, that now is the odd thing because I, I just, I, any, any, anytime I indulge that negative thinking, that's my addiction attempting to come in and drive a wedge between me and the people that love me and to. And convince me that I need to go back to where I was. So I think that as you talk about the, the myths that people have about who they are and how they show up in the world certainly can fuel and further isolate themselves from the solution. And I was saying before, from the connection they seek. We all want to be connected. We all want to be connected to our family. We want to be connected to our community. We want to be connected in some way to something that is greater than ourselves. I believe. So I think that answers. I think that hopefully answers your question.
- [26:46]
Interviewer
It absolutely does. Thank you. So on that subject, considering the myths that we either fall victim to or find ourselves elevated by, we're really talking about, obviously, the super ego and what kinds of standards, guidelines society wants to establish, whether it's in our family, in our religious life, in our public life that we would Also take into consideration the subject of shame, since shame more often than not represents disobedience of the superego, represents the person's inability to be what is expected of them. I think shame is often invisible, but absolutely central in addiction and recovery. I, I believe that it seems evident in the lives of many addicts. What role do you see shame playing in blocking consciousness? And how do you help clients begin to see their shame and how it's shaped them?
- [27:38]
Dr. Wesley W. Detweiler
That's a beautiful question. Shame and guilt are incredibly interlinked. I, I kind of, I love helping people to see that guilt is, you know what, if I was given the information differently, I would have done things differently. I would have made a different decision. Shame is, I'm a bad person because of the decision that I made. I think guilt can help us to shape and grow and move towards making, you know, we can, we can, we can do things differently or do it better next time. I'll do better next time. Guilt. Guilt can be a very positive thing. Shame is a very destructive force. It keeps us stuck. It doesn't allow us to grow it. It reinforces itself. So I, I, I kind of will say jokingly that there's no place for shame when we're looking for solution. We're not. We're not. I think society has such a moral platitude around addiction. Sometimes addicts are looked at as bad people or as having moral feelings because they have either relapsed or gone back to their addiction. It's a very, it's a, it's again, it's a shame cycle that repeats over and over again. It just works to fuel itself. And so when we can teach people that they are not bad, they're not unlovable because they're addicts, they're not unlovable because they're alcoholics or because they're struggling or suffering under addiction. I think it's a, when they can start to see that. I think it's a really important first step for them in terms of finally seeing that they are worthy of solution. Because when somebody doesn't feel like they're even worthy enough to get sober or to seek sobriety, that's a, that's a really, really steep hill to climb.
- [29:34]
Interviewer
It is. And that, that line worthy of solution reminds me earlier, discussing the 12 step program, how frequently these sacred rituals we involve ourselves in, whether they're in an ecumenical setting or in a more secular setting, do play pretty significant roles in how we identify. How do you distinguish between destructive craving or the destructivity of craving and sacred longing in the recovery process. They seem to be mirrors of one another. By my assessment. Can the same desire that fuels addiction also become a fuel for awakening?
- [30:12]
Dr. Wesley W. Detweiler
I love that question. That actually just really made my heart stir. And what it reminds me of is when people ask, you know, coming up on 10 years, for me, I was craving. My methamphetamine was really the thing that brought me down to my knees. And I, on, on any given day, I was either buying it, selling it, looking for it, using it, or probably all of the above. Pretty much anything and everything in my life had something to do with methamphetamine. It was the people that I spoke with or what I was involved with or, or whatnot. And so when I got sober, what I kind of. One of the things that I told myself was, if I can spend as much time as I was seeking meth, then I can spend at least that much time seeking my sobriety. And at least the first year, I only surrounded myself with people who had this, that had a like mind. I went to multiple meetings a day. I participated in my sober community as much as I possibly could. And my thought was, is it, you know, I wanna, I wanna seek my solution as much as I sought my destruction, I wanted to invert the paradigm. And I think that speaks very much to what you just asked in terms of that, that, you know, what, what got me to, what brought me to my knees in terms of my demise, in terms of seeking methamphetamine use to almost my demise. Right. That drive is also I, you. I was able to tap into that same drive when I was seeking my solution. And it really did fuel a very, and I think was a very beautiful recovery and has continues to fuel an. Enlighten, an enlightenment in a life beyond my wildest dreams. Honestly, I, I would not have sat down when I got sober and said this is what I would be doing. I would have settled for a job at 7:11, a car and maybe a studio apartment that I could afford. And I would have been great with that. And my life is well beyond that.
- [32:30]
Interviewer
Oh, absolutely. I, I realize and see frequently how clearly happy you and your spouse are and your testimony to your success that speaks to the subject of where success gets placed. How people measure success Frequently, I think people measure success in comparison less than contrast. When it comes to comparison, we're usually talking about family and generational trauma. What kinds of unseen inherited trauma show up in your clients that they themselves may not even be aware of or that you've recognized in yourself since you've been on this road to recovery for as long as you've been here.
- [33:12]
Dr. Wesley W. Detweiler
That's. That's a. That's a really interesting and complex question as well. I feel like. I feel like somebody like yourself might have more depth in terms of being able to observe in inherited trauma. You know, I've. I've worked with people. For example, I've. Probably the most obvious would be. I've worked with people who have relatives or ancestors that were involved in, you know, ostrich and. And Auschwitz and were. You know, there's family ties and family origins where whole parts of the family have been lost, and that still shows up for them in a way. There's like. There's this archetype, and I think for. For my. That kind of shows up and that is. That is present. That is. That is a collective. A collective around that feeling. I don't want to get too much into that. That part, even though I brought it up, but I think for my community, it has to do with HIV and AIDS and even, you know, even though I was, you know, very young when the AIDS crisis was really hitting my community and killing many of my. Most of my brothers and sisters in the eight, in 82, 83, 84, there's. There's this incredible collective awareness and consciousness and almost in our. Ingrained in our DNA around this loss that happened that impacted our community. And I think that, you know, I work with many gay men that are in their, you know, 60s and 70s, that all of them have this unspoken, profound trauma that occurred. They lost, you know, in some cases, hundreds of friends, and. And yet it's something that is just filed away and it's just waiting and it's. It's. Sometimes it's beautiful when we're able to sit and get quiet and tap into this reservoir of pain that is still present for many of these men. That, again, it's just. We just. It's just not as talked about as it might be. And it's. It's amazing to me the pain that still exists. And I hope it's something that we never forget, because it. It's just so important that we continue to remember what. What that did to our community and how our community was shaped by the tragedy of the AIDS crisis. Even as today we all are able to be on our medication and we're not. It's not as impacted. We can't. We can't bear to forget, you know, what. What that did to us and how it made us grow as a community. And how it galvanized our community.
- [36:10]
Interviewer
And that galvanization persists even today with a lot of political movements striking towards new rights and new recognition. Something that I believe has shaped the current zeitgeist in lots of respects. You touched on something really particular when you discussed briefly this idea of falling into archetypes. And tell me what role you believe archetypal psychology plays in an addict's path. Because obviously the addict isn't matching an archetypal role. Certainly not the way Dr. Karl Gustav Jung conceived of the archetypes. But in your mind, where do you see it playing out? Whether that's just a familial role or if this is something in maybe Adler's idea of birth order. Do you see patterns evolving where people either matching an archetype or failing an archetype or are more or less prone to addiction?
- [37:02]
Dr. Wesley W. Detweiler
So that, that I'm the prob. Sorry, I don't mean to get tongue tied. There's so much that comes to me when I think of that. What really comes to me in this particular topic is the hero's journey, right. And I'm not sure if that has to do with an archetype as much as just the, the, the how we're kind of faced with this journey of overcoming something. Through our darkest hour comes our greatest achievement. And this whole notion of that, again, kind of the, the. I don't know if it's an archetype as much as just a, A figure, but the phoenix rising from the ashes, you know, the paradox of, of our, our greatest pain. Through our greatest pain comes the most profound learning, right? All of this, this breaking down and building up stronger. It's just this beautiful paradox that occurs with recovery. I, Many, I think many would agree with me if, when I say that I'm so grateful for my addiction and for my journey, because without it, I would not be the man I am today. It has it my. My solution and my recovery has done more to shape me than anything else in my life. And so, you know, had I not been able to live through it, you know, obviously that would have been horrible. But it's been such an incredible teacher. Absolutely such an incredible teacher. You know.
- [38:43]
Interviewer
The idea of the hero's journey, that's spot on. I'm a big fan of Joseph Campbell and I do see any addicts road to recovery as part of the hero's journey. And so I think there is an archetypal model there that as you've just pointed out, does play a big part in success or failure. You Also touched briefly mentioning patients and clients who have had relatives unfortunately suffering under the Nazi regime in Auschwitz. So that brings to mind the work of Dr. Conrad Waddington and the idea of epigenetics. Do you see an epigenetic role in addiction? Do you see addiction being handed down from, from generation to generation and your clients?
- [39:25]
Dr. Wesley W. Detweiler
You know, again, when we're talking about what elements of addiction are genetic versus environmental, you know, from, from this practitioner's viewpoint, it's hard to really pick that apart. What is it? Is it 20% this, you know, 70% that and 10% here? So what I can tell you though is that I feel like we look at, when we look at patterns of behavior, we look at, you know, when you've got so, so socio economic status, you've got a history of addiction in the family, a history of poverty, a history of all these different things. One might say those are predictors of addiction and those, one might say those are prediction, predictors of, of a drug use. But then you've got people that come from very, you know, wealthy backgrounds that also struggle. And so it's so hard to make, you know, I know the research says that there's, there's a, that there's a correlation between, for addiction in terms of, it's passed down from generations that people can be predisposed to. And I'm curious, there might already be research around whether or not there's genes that predict addiction. And you know, I think that, I think that when we look at addiction and people who are prone to addiction, when we think about what people who, people who can, people who are prone to addiction are also prone to so many more incredible things and endeavors. And so it, you know, we have to look at everything in terms of the dimensionality, right? If we're, I'll look at for myself like I was a, I was, I was, I mean I was an addict. Like there's no other addict, right? I was, I was really, I, I could pursue my addiction into the, into the gates of hell and I could have. But I've also been able to use that fuel to accomplish some incredible things in my life and to work with amazing people and to be able to be an instrument for change and goodness. And I, I feel like ever since I got sober, it basically, I, I basically was given a second chance to be of service to the world and be of service to, to, to people and to, So I, I, I just feel like it's important for us to see that, like, that these people, that the addicts in Such a negative term. It can be such a negative term. Everyone is, has so much incredible innate potential. And I think it's about realizing our potential. And really, I think the journey of recovery is about finding our true potential and being able to be limitless in that and to be able to be on that path where we're able to step into that light and to step into that awareness and finally shine the way that we were always meant to shine. And somehow along the way we picked up that spoon instead of the. Or some way along the way we picked up a coping skill or a coping mechanism that didn't serve us. And it's that journey of finding the right tools to match the right situation that brings us to the place that we were always meant to be.
- [42:55]
Interviewer
Yeah, well, like you said, it's the hero's journey. Whether it's. It's a wealthy person or a person suffering under poverty, whether it's a person from one ethnicity or another, it is still the hero's journey because it's a heroic success to overcome any addiction, I would imagine.
- [43:12]
Dr. Wesley W. Detweiler
And it's a great equalizer addiction. You know, you're, you're right. It impacts every, every strata, every. Every realm, every person, every, you know, nobody's exact.
- [43:24]
Interviewer
And to that end, it really is every man's struggle not to specify the gender of masculinity. But yeah, I believe that it's, it's a wonderful leveling device and test. But there are some unique idiosyncrasies when you look from community to community. That's where I think your expertise comes in. Do you feel that qu. Identity offers a unique vantage point into collective shadow work? We don't have to talk about addiction specifically, but collective shadow work and perhaps even an early confrontation with the unconscious that most other non queers would postpone.
- [44:01]
Dr. Wesley W. Detweiler
I think that, I mean, kind of what you're, what you're kind of speaking to. I, I think that gay men and, and, and gay men and women, you know, or lesbians, whatnot, who are self aware at a young age. I think they have an existential crisis when they're like in elementary school, right? It's like, oh my God, I am different. I am not, you know, I am not part of what society feels is acceptable. And I need to hide that. And I feel like people who are, who are cisgender heterosexual, they, they may or may not have an existential crisis of that kind or nature, hopefully maybe within their life, but it's certainly not through elementary school and high school. Right. Like they're they have. They have the. They have the privilege of fitting in the box that society wants them to fit in.
- [44:52]
Interviewer
Right.
- [44:52]
Dr. Wesley W. Detweiler
And so I feel like I. For. For some people, that is the origins of the shame that we were talking about. For some people, that is the origins of. Of this belief that I have to be better. I have. It's the origins of those feelings of I'm not lovable, society will reject me, society doesn't want me. And so we all kind of start off almost behind. Behind the game. Right. And so I think that. I think that on the other. The other end of that, you have a lot of people that become incredible actors, artists, intellectuals, because from an early age, we've had to work harder to be better and to overcome. And. And I think. I know for me, I'm. I'm grateful for my identity, even though it has. It was very difficult growing up as a young person that was effeminate. I'm grateful for having the experience of being different, because I think it allowed me a different. A more unique perspective on the world that has shaped me and continues to shape me. And I think that other people would agree with that as well.
- [46:11]
Interviewer
Yeah, absolutely. You know, considering that and what you just said, I'm struck by the concept that queer consciousness somehow offers the gift of outsiderhood. This would essentially honor the idea that being different sensitizes one to the deeper currents of culture and psyche. That means that in that instance, at the very least, being an outlier might provide a perspective from a vantage point that, as you said, cisgendered individuals or heterosexual individuals in at least the Western societal viewpoint, might not really possess, probably promoting an earlier growth arc. At the same time, it might also promote earlier trauma and longer cycles of addiction and difficulty because of not belonging, not having the connection that you explained earlier is the opposite to addiction. The idea of these communities being integrated, which thankfully we have access to the technologies in our time that have allowed for many of these communities to integrate and to stay open and willing to support members who, under other circumstances, might not belong to metropolitan communities where finding connection is as easy as perhaps it would be in a city. Do you find that that aspect, the connectivity piece and reflecting on the disconnectedness from a person's past, from their childhood, from their early adulthood, maybe even in your own journey, is the key trauma in addiction.
- [47:51]
Dr. Wesley W. Detweiler
The key what?
- [47:52]
Interviewer
The key trauma, the key trauma yielding addiction. As you said, if connection is the solution to addiction, then by antithesis is the lack of connectivity, the genesis of addiction.
- [48:11]
Dr. Wesley W. Detweiler
Ah, I see what you're saying. I, you know, but I mean, I, my, I think that that could certainly be an element. I feel, my fear is that that simplifies things to a great degree. And, but I think there's some. That does ring true. And I'm trying to think about, you know, that question in terms of the lack of, the lack of connection. I mean, I think there's a greater story there. You brought up, you know, our technology and you brought up the kind of the state of the world in terms of where we're, where we're going. We have these relationships with these things in our pockets, these phones and these computers and we have all of these ways of staying connected, but they're also in a sense this, these buffered or kind of muted or murky ways of being connected. So it's connection. At the same time, sometimes people feel more isolated. And so I think that it's a very, it's a very. Sometimes the things that are meant to connect us are the very things that are causing us to feel more distant. Right. We're talking about social media, we're talking about Facebook, Instagram, this compare and despair mentality where we're reminded of all the things that we don't have and we're not and that we're not a part of or not invited to, we're not included on. And as we attempt to engage and be social with these mechanical manifestations of our society and our world, we end up internalizing and feeling that we're less and will less a part of than we would have in the first place. And so, so I think that it's important to really, when we're looking at connection. Sure. You know, it's a, it's a double edged sword, right? It truly is a double edged sword. I think that connection is around community and I think community can be online, but I think that it needs to also have an element of heart and blood and beating and you know what I'm saying, like tangible irl. I'm not, you know, I know that I have a lot of people in my life and a lot of clients that have very meaningful online relationships and robust communities. And I'm not undervaluing that. But I also have a lot of people that constantly measure their, they kind of measure, they compare their insides to other people's outsides and it creates this cycle of despair that is something that I think is doing a lot of disservice and, and can actually kind of contribute to, if not feed directly to patterns of addiction. I hope that is kind of what you're talking about.
- [50:57]
Interviewer
Yeah, absolutely. And I love that you. Maybe you didn't coin it, but I've never heard it until you. The concept of compare and despair as a mindset, that's really, I think common in this time where there aren't valid tests for interpersonal relationships. When you're judging life. A digital format. Which then of course reminded me back to earlier in our conversation when you were mentioning the connectivity you were seeking was through a community of addicts. So there are degrees of connection is what I think I hear you saying. The kind of connection that a community of addicts can offer or the kind of connection that a digital life can offer. These aren't necessarily the solutions to addiction, but might act as placeholders while seeking a solution or perhaps while desiring improvement.
- [51:49]
Dr. Wesley W. Detweiler
Yeah, yeah. All of that. Right. Connection can be the community. When we talk, you know, we oftentimes there'll be an acronym for God in, in 12 step. Obviously there's part of the 12 step program is this is as a higher power and God. Right. God is a very. In the 12 step program. It's a God of your understanding. And you know, for me I often think of God as a. It can be a group of drunks, it. Which is the group. Right. It can be the gift of desperation, which for me it was that desperation, that feeling of like I have to make a change. That was one of the greatest gifts that was ever given to me. And it's that gift that fuels my recovery today. It can be good, orderly direction knowing that if I do the good thing, if I treat people with respect, if I act with honesty and integrity, if I do good things, my life will take. The good things will happen to me. So I think that, I think that I, I think. I'm sorry, I got off on a little bit of a tangent.
- [52:50]
Interviewer
No, it's okay. I, I love it because I, I like the idea of these acronyms that obviously they're fantastic bite sized ways of looking at the world that most people probably don't put enough, put enough emphasis on. It's easy to have small bites of something. So I do like that. In fact I, I smiled when you were saying a group of drunks. I've never heard that before, but it was, that was very good. Yeah, yeah.
- [53:14]
Dr. Wesley W. Detweiler
And so. Yeah, I'm sorry. And that was coming from your, your, your commentary about community. Right. So yeah, a community can also be back to the family like feeling the feeling connection to the family. Maybe, maybe somebody feels that they're not lovable because they've been ostracized or maybe they're gay and they've been pushed away or they're trans. I see this way too often where somebody who identifies as trans is, is, is jettisoned from their family of origin and they have to seek and find a community of, that is a family of a chosen family that they can feel connected to. And, but you know, show me somebody that is, that is sober and that is in solution. And you know, I always say show me your friends and I'll show you your future. You, you generally will have somebody that has found their tribe and they have found their posse and they have found the people in the community that they feel that they can be connected to. Right. Like, and so that, that, in, in that in therein lies the solution. Right. So I think, and again I think that goes back to kind of what you were, you were talking about.
- [54:20]
Interviewer
It does, and wow, so insightful. Show me your friends and I'll show you your future. That's fantastic. Really fantastic. I'm going to remember that for a very long time.
- [54:30]
Dr. Wesley W. Detweiler
Doesn't that ring true though?
- [54:31]
Interviewer
It does, it does. It absolutely does. I think that's, that's a wonderful way of approaching any group or individual. In closing, I want to ask as someone holding so much space for others darkness, what invisible forces do you rely on to stay grounded, resilient and clear? What nourishes you at the threshold of each experience and each interaction? Whether that's with a client, with a friend, with your spouse, with a total stranger?
- [55:00]
Dr. Wesley W. Detweiler
That's such an incredible question. I think that it's interesting because when you first asked the question you said when I, you know, when I'm maybe it essentially confronted with people's darkness, I often will say, and I feel it's true that I'm not in the process of dealing with people's problems or pain. I'm in the, I, I feel like I'm here to help them. I'm here to be, you know, create space for a solution. And I, I think that I am such a humble servant. I'm such a humble participant. I think the work that I do is less about me and I really do believe it's more about what the universe is is. You know, I, I, I, I try to remember that I'm just upon in the universe and hopefully I can say the thing that is going to touch somebody or be what it is that they need to hear in the moment that they need to hear it. It's not about me intellectualizing or pontificating or, or, or, or, or, you know, exercising my education. It's about just being present and connected in an attempt to just be a conduit for whatever needs to come through when, you know. And again, it's a model in recovery and sobriety and our.
- [56:27]
Interviewer
In.
- [56:27]
Dr. Wesley W. Detweiler
In our 12 step community, when we're called to share or we're called to participate in the group level, oftentimes we just kind of say a prayer and say that let, Let me be able to impact at least one person in the world in the room. Whatever I'm about to say, if it can impact one person in the room and bring them solution or closer to the solution, then I'm happy with that. And I just try to maintain that level of humility in every session that I have. I hope that answers your question.
- [57:02]
Interviewer
It does, it does. It sounds like your humility and your openness to listen to receive your clients is what keeps you grounded. Unless I'm misunderstanding you.
- [57:13]
Dr. Wesley W. Detweiler
No. Yeah, I think so. I think that probably the thing I want to guard against the most is hubris, right? This feeling that like, like I have all the answers, I am the greatest. Whatever, you know, like hubris I think is the thing for a psychologist and therapist and, and really anybody, any professional, it could be the thing that really disconnects us from the people that we're trying to help. So I, I really try to keep myself as grounded and as in the room and as in front of the person as I possibly can.
- [57:46]
Interviewer
Oh, you are the least pedantic person I have ever met, Wesley. So I have to tell you, you're doing an excellent job. Please keep up with your stellar progress. Would you close by describing for me a moment when, whether with, With a client or maybe just in your own life, something completely unforeseen occurred that suddenly became real, changed everything, totally altered your trajectory that could either be in these 10 years of sobriety or prior, but something that, as a cosmic shift in your life, changed all the rules for you and, and potentially allowed you to land here where you are now.
- [58:29]
Dr. Wesley W. Detweiler
Wow. What comes to mind for that? Something that changed the trajectory of my life? Well, obviously, as we've talked about, my sobriety was something that truly changed the trajectory of my life. But let me think and see, since we've talked a little bit about that already. So I think that. Let me say this, that the. And I'm trying to find the right words to say this, but I think that the thing that is really in addition to my sobriety, my relationship, my husband finding the partner that I found or how somehow the universe allowed us to come together. Finding that person, that the right person at the right time that is able to. It was. Has been able to align with me on such an incredible level in terms of sobriety, in terms of supporting my sobriety and my recovery. But then also, I think that we really build on each other in terms of where we're at and where we're going. And. And I just feel like with my husband that we've been. We've known each other for a long time, even though we've only been married for three, three and a half years, that there's something about just knowing him and being a part of him. It feels like I've always been a part of him and he's always been a part of me. And I think that, that, that. And if it wasn't my recovery and my sobriety, then it's been. I mean, he's impacted my life on. On every single level and really informed me and informed the man that I've become. And. And I. I just. I just. And I feel like I'm so. I can't even tease out where I end and he begins. Like, it's been such an incredible journey with him already, and I'm so excited for what that brings. And. And he just brings so much to my life. And so I think that meeting him and, And. And just in being on this journey with him is. Is. Is probably the closest thing next to my sobriety that has changed the trajectory of my life for sure, if that makes any sense.
- [60:57]
Interviewer
It does.
- [60:57]
Dr. Juan Carlos Rey
And the two of you have real.
- [60:59]
Interviewer
Alchemy in a way that you only see with the coincidence of opposites. And I. I think that's fantastic, honestly, where you check mark all the boxes that he doesn't, he check marks all the boxes that you don't. So I feel that you probably have a long, long relationship ahead. I would. I would imagine. Yeah. From this lifetime into the next. So at the end of all of this, it sounds like love is really the turning point. Love, or true acknowledgment, true recognition was at least in this case, your turning point.
- [61:33]
Dr. Juan Carlos Rey
Point.
- [61:34]
Dr. Wesley W. Detweiler
Yeah, absolutely. Or maybe the turning point, but also maybe the destination. Like as. As you know, I. I think that in order for me to be able to be in the relationship that I'm in, I needed to go through what I went through. I wouldn't be able to be where I'm at right now with him. I wouldn't have been able to receive the love he has for Me without, without first learning how to love myself, you know, like, because that wouldn't have had that depth. I wouldn't have had the capacity. So, so, and then, and then as I feel like, you know, ask me in 10 years what the turning point is, and I'm sure that that together, as meeting each other and as we face the future together has, was, was and is a turning point for both of us.
- [62:21]
Interviewer
So, and still, even in this self love perspective that still seems the seminal piece here is connection, love, recognition. However it needs to get explained, however it needs to get articulated, it's still, I think, generally the same concept. So to that end, would you say that for most of your clients, most of your patients, once that solution comes along, once the connectivity is offered, once love is found, do you see problems autocorrecting for them? Do you still believe there's a lot of self work to do, or do you think that some things just fall into place because they were just missing one thing that then gets given to them?
- [63:05]
Dr. Wesley W. Detweiler
You know what, yes, that's great. You know, all of the above. I think I've seen all of all three of those. I think that, you know, you know, I think I can answer this by saying that oftentimes more than not when I, if we're speaking about clients and patients, it oftentimes just giving people space for them to engage in their own healing and for, and to participate in their own healing is, is, is what they need. There's a story I, I can say kind of quickly. When I first started my training as a psychologist, I was so concerned about how to say it, what to say, when to say it, what. I was, you know, I was so concerned. I thought I was the key to everybody's healing. It was what I had to say or didn't say that was going to dictate what, how somebody was going to be able to, you know, move forward or whatnot. And I was working in a, a clinic and I, and I had in front of me a grandmother who had both of her legs amputated. She was in a wheelchair. She was accompanied by her daughter. The grandmother spoke an indigenous Indian language, Native American language. Her daughter spoke Spanish. My, my medical assistant was the interpreter. And I don't speak Spanish, I speak English. And I was, I was like, oh my gosh, how can this be a therapeutic experience? What am I supposed to do? And I just started to engage. I'd asked a question, I had asked a question. My ma would translate that to the daughter, the daughter would translate that to the Grandmother. The grandmother would then respond. The daughter would translate that to my medical assistant, you know, and you can imagine that's this is what occurred for about 40 minutes, just going back and just attempting to have this, like, therapeutic experience with all these people in the room. And I was mortified. I went home, and I was like, oh, my God, I can't do this. This was horrible. I can't believe they had me be in the room with these people. And how can it be therapeutic? And I just. Oh, my gosh. And I was so overwhelmed with my own feelings and inadequacies. And two weeks later, I had the same grandmother back in my office. And the daughter was like, I don't know what you did, Doctor, but she. All she has been talking about is how you're her savior. You're her knight in shining armor. You. You. She has been. You know, she's been eating, she's been participating in the cooking. And, you know, it was what I thought was a very minor therapeutic interaction. What I learned in that moment was that just seeing somebody and experiencing them and creating space for them, the healing starts. The healing begins. It's just about showing up and being present for people for me. And that was a really good lesson for me to learn early on. You know, what I say is not as important as just showing up up and being present.
- [66:11]
Interviewer
That's fantastic. I. I love that. And what a great note to close on.
- [66:15]
Dr. Juan Carlos Rey
Thank you so much.
- [66:17]
Interviewer
Thank you so much for sitting with me, Wes. It's always great to talk to you. Please say hello to your lovely spouse for me, and hopefully I will have a chance to chat with you again soon.
- [66:25]
Dr. Juan Carlos Rey
Yeah.
- [66:26]
Dr. Wesley W. Detweiler
So thank you so much.
- [66:27]
Interviewer
Absolutely. Take care now.
- [66:28]
Dr. Wesley W. Detweiler
Okay. Bye bye.
- [66:29]
Interviewer
Bye bye.
- [66:33]
Dr. Juan Carlos Rey
In today's episode, Wesley was kind enough to share with us how it is that addiction finds its root in individuals. Where it is that it comes from, what it is that it changes in one's life, how it alters motivation, how polyvalent and ambiguous it can be. Personally, I was amazed at the parallels Wes was able to draw between his own life and the lives of his patients, the people who he treats. More than that, the lives of strangers, individuals out in the world, making choices, pursuing decisions, deciding to act on impulses or compulsions, not even understanding where it is that those choices might come from. If they're devoid of introspection, then that map might not ever be available to them. But if they have some insight, whether that's been provided by a community, that they find themselves in the connection of a good therapist or the true connection of love, then, then hope is available. It would seem to me that in all of this, the most significant force is love. I'm not someone who likes to wax poetic, but I think even the scholars and poets of antiquity knew this. They frequently would write about how remarkable of a force love was to change minds, to push nations over the brink, to bring people back home. The power of love, much lauded in many different arenas and in many different circles, is something that must surely be indisputable. Understanding that its application as regards multiple therapeutic models and human healing from trauma, as well as the problems that come along with trauma, is something that I do believe we should all pay attention to. You know, it's easy for us to say that love fixes everything. That's a very cheap answer. But to understand and to appreciate more than that, to exercise how it is exactly that love can heal everything, how true connection, as Dr. Detweiler pointed out, can correct the problems caused by artificial connection, that's really something for us to sink our teeth into and to apply not only in our own lives, but in the lives of those people around us. Remember, what appears unknowable often stands right before us, waiting to be observed through, through both the lens of science and the wisdom of spirit. Until next time, this is Dr. Juan Carlos Rey of crowscubboard. Com inviting you to look deeper into the observable unknown.