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- [00:03]
A
Welcome to the observable unknown, where science meets the unexplained. I'm Dr. Juan Carlos Rey of crowscubboard.com and after two decades of working at the intersection of comparative religious studies, grief counseling, anthropology, quantum mechanics, and consciousness studies, I've discovered that our most profound human experiences often exist in the space between what we can prove and what we can perceive. In this podcast, we'll explore the measurable influences of immeasurable forces, those hidden factors that shape our reality but often escape our traditional scientific frameworks. From the latest research in consciousness studies to the ancient wisdom that's now finding validation in neuroscience and quantum physics, we're here to bridge the gap between academic rigor and spiritual insight. Whether you're a skeptic, a seeker, or simply curious about the deeper mechanics of human experience, you're in the right place. Together, we'll examine the evidence, challenge our assumptions, and explore what happens when we dare to look beyond the obvious on the observable unknown. We explore lived experience, honest inquiry, and the quiet territory where science story and interior life meet. My guest today brings a body of work and experience that intersects with many of the themes we explore here. Mo Choice carries an array of finely tuned tools to every conversation he makes time for. I urge you to please listen for the deeper questions beneath the surface. As you listen, I invite you to notice not only what is said, but what resonates most within you and has the potential of shaping your own story. So, without any further ado, let's join the conversation. Mo, it's fantastic to have you sitting here with me today. You walked away from scale after loss. What did burnout actually feel like in your body before it became a business story?
- [01:57]
B
Wow. So I. I don't. I don't know if the term is burnout. I don't really know. I haven't. I haven't meditated on the. On the semantics of it, but I couldn't. I couldn't face the world physically, mentally, emotionally, spiritually, socially, I couldn't face the world. I couldn't get out of bed. I couldn't. I didn't want to talk to anyone. I didn't feel like I was myself. When I did get out of bed, I felt like I was acting and there was a real heavy weight on my shoulders every moment of. Of my being. So I remember that intensely, actually.
- [02:42]
A
Did it spur you to seek any kind of care, any kind of special treatment?
- [02:48]
B
No, I didn't know there was. I thought. I thought there was something wrong with me that couldn't be fixed. I thought there was just something wrong with me, really. Not that something was happening to me and I didn't really diagnose it. I didn't really think about it. I just tried to. I just tried to get through the day. I remember there was a three week period in a row where all I did was binge watch tv. I never done that in my life. And I think it was just to distract my, you know, to distract my focus away from the troubles I was having. So I didn't, I didn't. I don't remember ever trying to figure out what was wrong or coming up with a reason for it. I don't remember ever doing that. I was just trying to get through the day, really.
- [03:35]
A
Did you suffer a great deal of pain? Were there a lot of somatic symptoms of burnout that you recognized? Headaches, insomnia, maybe weight loss or gain?
- [03:44]
B
Yeah, I couldn't, couldn't sleep properly. I was drinking heavily at that time as well. And so that numbed a lot of it. Definitely headaches, definitely. I don't know if they're migraines, but frequent headaches, mouth ulcers, bad skin. I remember developing this like, it was like a wart below my lip, my bottom lip, really awkward place. And that made it even harder for me to want to face the world, you know, and, and I, on reflection, I think that was a physical manifestation of me not telling the truth.
- [04:28]
A
That's very interesting.
- [04:29]
B
And I developed, and I developed a. I don't know if cyst is the right word, but it was like a bag underneath my right ear as well. And my, my partner at the time, intimate partner, Jesse, said to me, not only are you lying, which is why this thing has happened under your mouth, but you're also listening to lies, which is why it's developed behind your ear. And I thought she was insane. I was like, what are you talking about? It's got nothing to do with anything. This is just bad skin or stress or whatever. But I, I believe that now.
- [05:03]
A
So now when someone says to you, I need freedom, how often do you believe they're really describing nervous system fatigue rather than ambition?
- [05:15]
B
I'm, I'm very particular about words. So whenever someone says something to me, it needs a quite a deep discussion before I make any judgment on it. And so if someone says to me, I need freedom, or I'm struggling or I'm stressed, I'll try, try my best to unpack that. In fact, in many ways I'm trying to help them unpack it really. By asking them what it means. What do you mean by stress? How do you know you have it? Similar to your questions from earlier. Where are you feeling it? How do you know it's happening? Why is that different? And so I think it's super important to get super clear on what someone's internal world is and why they're picking the words they're picking to describe it, and what the physical, mental, emotional manifestations are, what their beliefs are, what their principles are, what their values are about these things before I can make any judgment on it. And I think I've become very good at that, actually. Yeah.
- [06:15]
A
Do you find yourself.
- [06:17]
B
Yeah.
- [06:17]
A
Do you find yourself turning people away because you realize they don't have ambition but instead are really just looking for a way to get out of the somatic symptoms they're suffering?
- [06:31]
B
I'm going to try to be as honest as possible here. If I believe I can show someone something about themselves that's going to help them progress in their lives, I will say yes to them. I don't really think beyond that. So it's, It's. So progress is the intention, not a specific goal or an outcome. Of course I want. I want social proof for the work I do. So the way I've positioned myself, I want people to say yes. You know, with mo, I was able to achieve xyz, but actually, I'll give you a small example, it's quite a trivial one. I had a client who wanted to be a, what I call a solopreneur, which is essentially taking all the risk on themselves to create whatever life they want to create. And they decided through my process that they didn't want to be a solopreneur. They wanted to go and get a job and have that safety net and be part of the team. And so I could have seen that as a failure because I didn't help them achieve, you know, the goal that we'd set out to achieve, the goal that they paid me for. But actually they now know what they want and they've made a decision that's helping them get what they want. And so for me, that's a massive win, irrespective of the outcome.
- [07:48]
A
To that end, many solopreneurs believe expansion equals safety. At what point did you realize growth can also become another form of threat?
- [07:58]
B
Yeah, it's an interesting one because a lot of people I meet these days, they use the word scale as well. They go, I want to scale. And I go, what does that mean? And then when they explain it to me, it's like, isn't that just growth? Isn't that just more money? And then they say, yeah, it's the same thing. And I go, if it's the same thing, why are we using a different word? And actually, scales become a buzzword for, for growth. But it means something completely different. It means you can achieve more impact, revenue, profit, with less of your resources. Right? That's the idea of scale, is that I'm not doing more to achieve more. I'm doing either the same or I'm doing less to achieve more. That's really the, the idea that I've got behind living life on your own terms is that you can increase your impact and you can increase your reach and you can increase having your needs and your desires met without having to expend more energy, without having to expend more resources. That's the idea of scale. And I love that idea. And I think we should constantly be thinking about how to do that. And the simple way of doing that, in my opinion, is to have your competence grow. If you have more competence and more value, more experience, to share more, know how, more connections, then you can achieve a lot more with a lot less of your time. And that's really what I'm trying to help others achieve while achieving that on my own as well.
- [09:16]
A
What habits look productive from the outside but feel dysregulated from the inside?
- [09:22]
B
Sorry, you just cut out, so I missed the question.
- [09:25]
A
No worries. What habits look productive from the outside but feel dysregulated from the inside?
- [09:32]
B
Oh, any, anything that's taking away from the tasks at hand. And I can give you examples if that would be useful.
- [09:40]
A
It would be.
- [09:42]
B
So here's a good question to ask somebody. How do you know what you're doing works? How do you know? Not why do you think or why do you feel. How do you know it works? So we're looking at more objective, observable data. And usually they don't have that. Right. Usually because people don't tend to track data. Some people don't even know how to track and what data to track. So that's a really good first question. And then, and then the second question would be, okay, well, let's, let's track the data. And when we track the data, we can now track progress, track patterns, figure out what's working and what isn't working. And then so the next question becomes, we now know what's working or what isn't working? Well, how do we do more of what's working and less of what isn't working? And they have to answer that question. And typically speaking, when we do a reflection like this, people are putting their effort into things that are not working. Why? Mixture of reasons. It's easier, it's safer, it's more comfortable, it's not as challenging. It kind of like distraction, you know. So I'm gonna sit here and try and find a, a new software to help me. When you know that, you know, sending messages to people or emailing them or following up with your clients is a better, is a better use of your time, but that's harder. Having a confrontation is harder. Trying to sell something is harder. Putting your prices up is harder. Having a difficult conversation with your client is harder. So I'm just going to go and update my logo or change my website banner or scroll LinkedIn for 5 hours making comments on people's posts, hoping to get the attention of the right people. That is a real example of what people do to avoid doing what's necessary to getting the things that they want or that they say they want to get.
- [11:45]
A
Now you speak about positioning and focus. Strip away the jargon for a moment. What happens to attention when someone is afraid of being irrelevant?
- [11:57]
B
Happens to attention when someone's being afraid of being irrelevant? That's a really good question. I, I, if I, if I bring it up to the macro, my, my belief is everybody wants to be, everybody wants to be good enough to be loved. If I, if I bring it right up to the macro, right? This is the, what my mentor used to call the battle with your parents, right, the father, and I don't mean that actually your father, but more of the masculine manifestation of your parents. The father says you're not good enough and the mother says you're not loved enough. And so what we look for is signs from our parents that we are loved enough and signs from our parents that we are good enough. And the judgment of our, of our parents really impacts our ability to believe that we are good enough to be loved. And all parents judge, at least the ones I've come across anyway, whether it's intentional or not, whether it's verbal or non verbal. And so the reason I'm bringing this up is because if you don't care about what your parents think, then you're not going to care about what anyone else thinks. That's a really, it's a really important thing to understand in my opinion, because then the pathway becomes super clear. Work on not caring what your parents think. That's the pathway that's in your control and so that needs difficult conversations with your parents if they're, if you're lucky enough that they're still alive and they're still willing to talk to you. Now, of course, you can still have conversations with people when they're not around or when they're not alive through, through different mediums. You can just write them a letter and write a letter back from them, and you can embody the. Them spiritually and energetically. And. And I've done this work with a lot of people, even though we're supposed to be talking about positioning and offers and marketing, because there is a. A real barrier to their potential internally that comes from their fear of judgment that ultimately stems from their parents. And that's a really deep way of, of looking at it, because people look at me and say, well, he's a LinkedIn coach, or whatever they want to call me. I don't. I don't really know what to call me, but I'm super curious about your world, and your world is built on your beliefs, and your potential is blocked by those beliefs. And I think you can change your beliefs consciously, intentionally, purposefully. They're just a belief. They're just a set of beliefs. They came from somewhere. You picked them up on the way, you decided they were true, but you have no real evidence that they are unconditionally true. So change them. Believe in the things that help you. And so we come back to this question that you asked about relevancy or irrelevancy. It's like, who do you want to be relevant to and why? And what does that even mean? What does that even look like? And why does it matter so much? And I think these are the important conversations to have. We. We need to have. We need to understand the philosophy of the individual before we start talking practically about what needs to happen.
- [15:16]
A
Excellent. In the same vein, is clarity something you build or something that emerges when pressure decreases? Whether that's pressure from perceived parental figures, pressure from peers, pressure from the economy.
- [15:33]
B
It's. I. I wish I could give you a definitive answer on this, but let me, Let me answer it a different way. I had. I had three problems in life. I didn't know where I was going, meaning I didn't know what the point was of what I was doing. What's the point? What am I aiming at? What's the North Star? What's the vision that I'm trying to create for myself? I didn't know that that was my first problem. You know, if you, if you want to create a life on your own terms, you have to first decide what that life looks like. And so that's the first problem that clarity solves. What do I want? And then the second problem is how, how am I going to get it? What am I prepared to do? What am I not prepared to do? What are the non negotiables? Right? What's the chosen path? If you like, that's a, that's a good way of thinking about it. An analogy for that is if I want to, if I want to get from New York to la, am I prepared to take an airplane or do I want to do a more climate friendly trip? So that would be an example of how I'd want to get to the destination that I'm trying to get to. And then the third problem is what do I do next? And I think clarity. Intrinsically we have to uncover what we really want. I think that's intrinsic. So you're, you're creating clarity rather than finding it, right? You're creating clarity internally to get, to connect with your intrinsic motivation, which is the North Star, the life that you want to create for yourself. And, and by the way, a lot of people confuse the life that you want to live with the details, right? House, money, how many kids. That's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about the experience that you want to create every single day. While you're in this, being in this form. What's the experience you want to create for yourself every single day? So words like engaged and empowered and excited and creative and connected and loved, this is what we're looking at. So it's precise in its nature, but it's not specific to any particular thing or other person or, or number. So it's not measurable, let's say objectively. So that's super important. And I think that comes intrinsically. And you need a real, rather than clarity, I would say you need an alignment between all parts of yourself. Conscious, unconscious, nonconscious, subconscious, spiritual, mental, emotional, social, environmental, your, your present self, your past self, your future self. I think that's, that's alignment of all of that brings you the clarity internally. And then how you're going to get there is I think based on your principles and your values. And I think those are in part intrinsic but mostly extrinsic. So for example, if I wanted freedom intrinsically, I might externally observe that I need discipline and structure to be able to get that freedom. So that's a way of choosing a particular path to get me what I believe I can I can get using this path or by following this path. And so I think that clarity comes from observing how the world works rather than intrinsically, and then what to do next. Who cares? If you're. If you're aligned with where you're going and how you want to get there, then just keep trying different ways of getting there by following the pathway that you've chosen while aiming fully at what you want to create, where you want to land. And I think that's where clarity comes. It comes through in terms of what to do. It comes through taking action. So there's a quote that I use. I think it's mine. I definitely can't find it anywhere, so it must have come out of my own head. If you. If you know what to do, take that action, take the next step. And if you don't know what to do, take the next step. What. What's the option? What's the alternative?
- [19:27]
A
Excellent. You were mentioning past selves, present selves, future selves. People rarely bring a blank slate into business. What old identity scripts did you have to unlearn before anything changed externally?
- [19:42]
B
Love that question. I have to be in charge, otherwise it's all going to go down the drain. I have to be the one making the decisions. If no one else does it, if. If I don't do it, no one else is going to do it. No one else is good enough to do it the way I do it. So I heard a lot when I was growing up and when I was in business. You're a control freak. I heard that a lot from different people. So it. So there must have been a big element of truth in it. So I think that was a. That was a big one. The second belief I want to say was that I don't have any talent, so I have to piggyback off other people's talent to create my life on my own terms. And then I. I had to unlearn that idea as well or change that belief. For sure. Those are the two big ones.
- [20:35]
A
Have you explored where you thought they came from? Was it mom? Was it dad? Was it something different?
- [20:41]
B
Yeah, I think my mom had the. A real big controller strategy about her. I also. My dad's a. A pleaser and an avoider. He doesn't like conflict. He hopes that it will go away if he. If he hides from it. And he. He likes to please people. But again, you know, a lot of. A lot of pleasers will claim that they care about the other, but really, it's just a selfish thing. It's it's the same idea. It's, if I please them, then I'll get what I want. And I saw my dad using these strategies and my mom using her controller, and I think I decided very quickly I'd rather be the controller than the pleaser or the avoider. And so it definitely came from that. I was the eldest son of, and I was quite confident in my own ability early on. So with peers and friends and family, I would always take charge. I'd bring the energy into it. And so I think that worked. And because it worked, I doubled down on it. And so I think, yeah, so to answer your question, I learned the strategy from watching my mom and dad interact with each other. And then I tested. I probably tested a few strategies. The controller really worked for me and getting me what I wanted and getting the right results, so I just doubled down on that. But the thing about strategies, and we know this from, you know, elite sports, the reason head coaches don't keep winning is because they don't pull down on the strategies that help them win, and other people develop better strategies to beat them, and they can't let go of the old strategy. So I think when I realized that doubling down on my strategies wasn't getting me the results that I wanted any longer, I. I made a conscious decision to change the strategies that I was adopting.
- [22:27]
A
Now, have you internalized any new scripts from mentors or perhaps even consultants that you have recently decided weren't as useful for this stage in life? Have you evolved past even the evolutionary steps you've taken?
- [22:47]
B
It's a. It's a good question. I. I would probably have to reflect on it. One thing I. I noticed about. So every. Every end of year, I take off the last six weeks of the year to reflect and to kind of stop working. And when I did my reflections last year, I realized that I, I want to. Here's. Here's an old belief. No one's going to care about what you do more than yourself. And I think there's some truth to that. But actually, if you have the right people doing the right things at the right time, they deeply care about what they're doing. And that sometimes is completely aligned with what I'm doing. Whereas before it was more dichotomy, dichotomous. My thinking, it's like, this is my thing, so only I care about it. The others are just here to get paid or, or whatever it is. And I think that was a big realization for me at the end of last year, that everyone has different needs, different Distractions, different priorities. So Sarah, who helps run my webinar program, she's got two kids and she's got chronic illness. So she has things that she's dealing with that I can't possibly comprehend. I don't have children and I don't have any illnesses. And so I can't expect her to focus everything she's got on what we're doing because she has to look after her two children and she has to look after her health. And so I, I never kind of accepted that fully. And I think last year I got there and that was a really big moment for me.
- [24:26]
A
Do you think most solopreneurs are trying to build a company or repair a story about themselves?
- [24:36]
B
The way I define solopreneurship is, is as far away from business as, as I think anyone else does. So I think of a solopreneur as somebody whose mission is to create a life on their own terms. And so that could, that could be building a big business, that could be just enjoying the lifestyle. It doesn't really matter. What matters is that the solo part is that you get to make all the decisions. You don't let go of that. So I won't work with anyone who wants an investor or co founder, even payroll. If someone's talking about hiring staff on payroll, I tend to advise them to go somewhere else to learn. So I'm like, solopreneurship for me is a pure way of being where I get to make all the decisions in my own way and I get to reap the benefits and the consequences of whatever the decisions I make. So I tend to attract people who want to meet their human needs rather than create something big or legacy building. It's very rare that I hear the word legacy anywhere in the conversations I have. And so it's am I good enough? We go back to the am I good enough to be loved? Am I good enough to create a life on my own terms terms? Am I good enough to do that? And that's the answer they're trying to find. And I help them do that through, through business.
- [26:05]
A
This concept of freedom gets used constantly. And in your experience, how do we tell the difference between genuine autonomy and strategic escape?
- [26:16]
B
It's a, it's an excellent question. I don't really like the word freedom. It's a bit like the word happiness. Like what does that even mean? And I think generally speaking, we, we experience happiness in moments and I think we experience freedom in moments. And, and there are some freedoms that are given to us through government. Or through laws. And there's some freedoms that are taken away from us through government and laws. And there's freedoms that we lose because of illnesses and there's freedoms that we lose because of religion or whatever we believe in beliefs. And so I think rather than thinking about, rather than thinking about freedom and how complex it is in nature and how multi dimensional it is, again, spiritual, financial, health based, relational freedom, you know, I prefer to think about independence. Am I able to, am I, am I able to think for myself independently of others? Am I able to offer value to others independently of others? Am I able to, to create things independently of others? And so it's this idea that although we are dependent on certain things, oxygen for example, and resources provided by the city, like I need the Internet to make money and I need a passport to cross borders. So there is a dependency on that. But you're not dependent on any particular person, person or group or organization. I think that's super important to be able to experience more moments of freedom. The more independent you are, less reliant on groups, organizations, individuals, the more you're going to experience moments of freedom. And I think that's a better way of looking at freedom.
- [28:06]
A
It is in that purview of freedom. I would imagine many solopreneurs engage in the way that they do because they're looking for fewer hours, a shorter work week or a shorter work year. Is this always about lifestyle or do you believe that in the personality types you've interacted with? Sometimes it could be about regulation.
- [28:27]
B
I think, I think it's difficult for me to generalize. What I will say is, and I think this is fair, the majority of people that ask me for my help are looking for a shortcut to. I, I don't want to be rude or cruel, but they're looking for a shortcut to laziness, meaning they want to be able to just be lazy. So sit at home, not have to go to work, not have to get on a call. And, and I, and I'm using the word lazy a little bit provocatively here, okay? But they're looking for shortcuts, passive income, you know, the quickest way to do this, and the reason I know this is true is they don't really care about the process, they just want the outcome. They don't want to love the process, they don't want to love their lifestyle. The the gets them to where they want. They want to love the lifestyle at the end. And I think you want to, you, you want to, to get what you want you have to be engaged fully in the process. That's going to get you there. I don't, I don't see observedly unless you're very, very lucky or something is corrupted. I don't see anyone getting what they want if they're not fully present and engaged in the process. I just don't see it.
- [29:48]
A
But in that conversation about drive, there's obviously the myth of drive and there's the reality of drive. Do you find a lot of individuals in your industry to be driven because this is what they desire for themselves, what they're best at, or because they are looking for a way of regulating their own stress, their own broken nervous systems?
- [30:14]
B
Maybe, maybe there is. This is why I said I don't really want to generalize. Or maybe I think you might have hit on something there and that's a more positive and empathic way of looking at what I just said. It's very possible. I think here's a good thing, a good way of looking at it. Most people are happy with ordinary. Most people are happy with ordinary because they understand that extraordinary is stressful. The thing is, it doesn't take much to be extraordinary, in my opinion. It doesn't take much. It takes focus and it takes clarity and it takes intentionality. Right. Rather than trying to read 50 books a year, why not master one book? It's probably going to be less stressful to do that, you know. And so I think people go too broad and not deep enough in everything, in their thinking, in their acting, in their decision making. It's too broad, it's too distracted, it's too surface level, it's too vague, it's not precise enough and it's definitely not deep enough. And I think that's the biggest problem. And I don't think people realize that that's the biggest problem. And so they might be trying to self regulate, but I don't think they know what they're doing.
- [31:43]
A
A valuable point. Why do you think the broad approach is preferred to the fine approach?
- [31:51]
B
Well, here's a. Here's a good test of this theory. When people really respect others, are they respecting others because of the surface level vagueness or are they respecting people who go deep in a particular craft or topic or way of being right? The people that get cited to me all the time, Gandhi and Nelson Mandela and the artists and the musicians and the actors, these are all deeply, deeply involved in their craft and they're not distracted by anything outside of that. And so I think that's. You can even look at Restaurants like you want a steak, Wouldn't you rather go to a steakhouse than go to a restaurant with 56 pages on the menu? And steak is a small part of that. You want to go to the steakhouse because you know that they've gone deep in on steak. That's their thing, that's their pride and their craft and what they're aiming for mastery in. So I think it's just natural that we, we are attracted to people that are aiming or at mastery. I think that's absolutely normal. And that's where beauty is achieved really through, through mastery. Simplicity and beauty is achieved through mastery from as far as I can tell. And so I think we know this to be true of ourselves. So why would we then want to do it a different way and then achieve the same kind of results? Now the problem with what I'm talking about is passion then becomes a thing. Passion to suffer for something thing. And, and here's the difference from the extraordinary and the ordinary. The ordinary do not want to suffer. They don't want to tolerate what they don't have to. Whereas the extraordinary are willing to suffer for the right thing.
- [33:44]
A
So in your opinion, is the approach to mastery inhibited by fear or as you adroitly pointed out earlier, laziness?
- [34:00]
B
I don't know if those are the only two options. I'll be honest. For me, I didn't think I was good enough to master anything. So I don't know if you call that a fear or a belief, a limiting belief. But, but you get the point. It's like there's nothing I can master. So maybe that's fear based again it goes back to the I'm not good enough, right? I'm not good enough to be loved. And you can look at that from that perspective. Like to be loved for your craft is different to be being loved for your heart or for your being or for your nature or for your character or personality. So I think that still holds true. That idea that we're sk. That the grand greatest fear is actually not not being good enough to be loved. That's not the, the greatest fear. The greatest fear is what happens when we realize that we're not good enough to be loved. What happens then? That's the unknown. That's the greatest fear. Because we know what it's like to be unconditionally loved. Because we usually get that pretty early doors unless we've had a traumatic childhood. We get unconditional love for three years, probably non stop from everybody. I would imagine if you had a reasonable upbringing. So I think we experience that and we're drawn to that intrinsically. And so the fear is what happens if we lose that. And I think avoiding mastery. You're probably right. There is some sort of fear about, well, no one's going to love me for this, and I'm going to prove that I'm not good enough. Time. And what we're looking for is proof that we are good enough to be loved. And here's a. Here's a really interesting idea. People prefer to not try and not fail than to try and fail. That's just. They've proven that so many. In so many different ways. People don't like setting goals because they're setting the criteria for failure, not for success. That's how they think about it. If I don't set a goal, I can't fail. And that's proper surface level. Right? Proper surface level thinking. It's like no one cares if you hit your goal or not. Who do you think cares? Nobody. So what are you talking about? And, and I think, I think we. This is a, A kind of a hip social hypnosis that's. I don't want to get into the status quo and what people are trying to get out of us. And. But I don't think there's a movement by those in charge through schools and through work to have us master things. I don't think there's a. I don't see a movement for that. I see a movement for generalization, vagueness, ordinary, average. That's what I see a movement towards. And you have to break free from that to be able to master something.
- [36:50]
A
But then what distinguishes between rejecting vagueness and toxic intensity?
- [37:01]
B
It's a really good question. Here's an idea. And, And I, I, you know what? You know, you know why I, I really enjoy this conversation, Juan? Because I, I want to ask you a million questions. That's how I know I'm enjoying the conversation. And if you want me to, I will. The. Here's a good way of. Here's an idea. It's an idea. I don't know yet if I'll flesh it out with you, if you're happy for me to.
- [37:27]
A
Of course,
- [37:30]
B
toxicity comes from misalignment.
- [37:34]
A
I agree.
- [37:36]
B
And misalignment comes from not telling the truth or not being the truth. You can look at it that way. Yeah. Okay. So. So we have to distinguish between a toxic lifestyle of drive or whatever it is, danger of burnout. We have to distinguish between that and whether or not we're fully aligned first. And my belief or the idea I'm proposing is if you're fully aligned, you will not be in danger of anything toxic. And here's, here's the quote I love. It's from an author. I think his name's Alan Simpson or Alan Thompson. Wasn't a very good book. I can't remember even what the book was called, but one quote jumped at me and I've used it ever since. Without integrity, nothing matters. With integrity nothing matters. And, and, and integrity is being your whole self fully, unconditionally embodied. And I think if you have that, the danger or the risk of breaking, burnout, toxicity, yada, yada is eliminated in my opinion.
- [38:46]
A
Brilliant quote by the way. Thank you for injecting that.
- [38:48]
B
Yeah, I love it, I love it. Crap. Author though, I'll be, I'll be honest,
- [38:53]
A
you've worked with a lot of clients one on one. What surprised you most about how people relate to authority? Guidance. Instead of choosing some alternative, let's say mass marketing approach to their education, why would they, why would they relate to authority or guidance inside a coaching container?
- [39:17]
B
It's a, it's an excellent question. Because in my opinion the only reason they would be open to me is if I see them for who they are, I'm curious about who they are and I make it super personal. And without those elements, without me being fully present to who they are, like fully present to who they are, who they're being and where they want to go and having the, the, the, the strongest intention possible to help them get there, I think that's a, that's the right kind of rapport which means that relationship can take the strain needed to then push them and provoke them into better action. And so, and so that's the first part. It's the intentionality behind what you're doing. It's who I'm being when I'm with them. And I think the second part is I talk to them. I. Here's a really good metaphor. I love this. My mentor Eleni Sarantin, who taught me this one. The subconscious or the unconscious or the non conscious. For me it's all the same thing. Is your 6 year old self pre, pre being corrupted by social norms and society. And, and it's a beautiful idea because Aristotle, who's also Greek, like Eleni, said, show me the boy of seven and I'll show you the man and his, his idea. And the Greeks, philosophers observed that by the time the child gets to seven, their beliefs are set. Their model of the world is created and they just replay that for the rest of their lives. I love this idea. So, so subconsciously we want to get back to the six year old. The six year old who's free and intrinsically knows what they want and is ready to take on the world and is positive about everything and nonjudgmental. So what I end up doing with my clients is I talk to their six year old selves. So I bring in humor that I know a six year old would enjoy. I bring in anecdotes and metaphors and analogies that I know 6 year olds will understand. And I use language that I believe 6 year olds would understand with the intention of tapping into their unconscious, which is really who I'm talking to. Their true selves, not the filter that they've created through adulthood. And I think that's a really powerful way to connect with someone. And they don't even know I'm doing it. But it works almost every time.
- [41:46]
A
Now of course, part of that toolbox is your experience with nlp. How much did Neuro linguistic programming push you in the direction that you've now selected for managing your clients?
- [41:56]
B
Massive. Everything. This idea that the world that we live in is created through the words that occupy our thoughts is just massive. It was a massive game changer for me. And so if I can change the words, I can change the world. Isn't that unbelievable? It's unbelievable. And so I get them to change their words. Tell me, tell me how you're seeing this. Tell me how else you can see it. Tell me what else could be true? What do you want to be true? You know, so someone says to me, I hate, I don't know, I hate selling. I go, do you want to hate selling? And most of the time they say, of course not. Okay, great. So let's, instead of saying I hate selling, let's say I want to find a way to love selling. Let's just change the word, the words and, and, and let's use words that actually aim at what you want rather than talking about what you don't have. It's a much better way to frame the world so that you're aiming at something properly. And then you can orient, oriented, orientate yourself towards that, aim towards that thing. You can position yourself properly. And I think that's super important. Words can, can help us do that. You know, that's the Bruce Lee quote. You know, words are magical. That's why we spell them. And I think that NLP taught me that big, big time. It Also taught me about the idea that we are repeating patterns over and over again. It taught me that and I put that to the test and that's how I discovered my strategies and the patterns that I was repeating. So NLP changed my life. Really?
- [43:36]
A
How did you stumble into it or was it forced upon you by a mentor?
- [43:41]
B
I, I, so this is a really interesting story. When I realized I didn't want to be the person I was and I didn't want to be in the environment I'd created and I wasn't living the life I wanted to live. I was in the hospitality sector and I hired a leadership trainer to train my staff, a portion of my stuff and I went in to observe the first workshop and he was using NLP techniques and I didn't know anything about any of this stuff at the time. And within about 10 minutes of the workshop I knew I was going to be doing what he's doing, even though I had no idea what he, he was doing. I, I still get my hair stand up on my arm. I get goosebumps because I felt like a really emotional, a real, a real connection with my emotional self, with my six year old self. When I was watching him deliver this training. Ten minutes in, it was a full day training, seven hours long or whatever. Ten minutes in, I knew unequivocally that I was going to be doing what he's doing. So I went into partnership with him. He was a freelance trainer. I went and said, why don't we build a business and train, train other trainers to do what you're doing. And we did. And that's how I started to get close to the ideas behind leadership training and leadership development and executive coaching. And of course NLP underpins a lot of that and that's how I learned about it. And then I went and found an NLP expert and I joined his program, you and Mockery. And he was my first real mentor. And then I found Eleni Santino who was my second real mentor and she took me the level, the next level. She turned me into an NLP master coach and an NLP trainer. And, and then I went down the executive coaching route because I realized that's where a lot of money is being made. And so I use NLP in my executive coaching. And then I started facilitating workshops and that led me to everything was me mastering ways to get someone to figure out what they wanted, the three problems we talked about, figure out what they wanted, how they wanted to get there and what to do about it. Everything I've done since that day when I witnessed the leadership training has been designing a way to facilitate that in others. What do I really want, how do I want to get there and what do I need to do about. And I've been building on that now for it's going to be 11 years in May. Every single day that's what occupies my thoughts and those are the, that's the craft that I've been working.
- [46:21]
A
So of course mastering NLP was something that was very important to you. But with exposure did you discover other tools, other ideas that you integrated since that you've brought into your practice that you feel are adjacent or perhaps parallel to in your linguistic programming?
- [46:41]
B
100% actually I would say I was nowhere near mastering NLP because it took me six weeks to get the master coach certification. It's like how can you be a master in six weeks? And then, and then I got my train, the trainer thing like six months later and it's like that's not, that's not enough for mastery. So I, I never mastered nlp, but I used the foundations of NLP to master what I do now. Which I, I think if I was, if I was to label my mastery now, it would be solopreneurship, it would be taking personal responsibility for creating a life on your own terms. I think that's the mastery. And after nlp, when I, when I did my coach training I, I went really deep into Socratic dialogue from Socrates, this idea that I know nothing. So I'm not going to tell you anything, I'm just going to ask you a bunch of questions that's going to help you discover the answer. And then that led me into practical psychology, that led me into positive psychology and Carl Rogers, that led me into the human behaviorist, B.F. skinner and people like that. And then I went into Carl Jung, the Jungian model, Alpha Adler and I started to understand a lot more about those guys. And then I, I got certified in non violent communication and Family Constellation and lots of other mediums, timeline therapy, hypnotherapy and, and every, everything that I was learning was designed to make me more aware of myself, more, more aware of others and more aware of how the world works, how the world exists. And, and I think, I don't think there's anything that I didn't look at at least in terms of reading the, the masters of that thing or turning, doing a workshop or a retreat or something like that. So my, my knowledge of NLP stopped really about a year in and I went down lots of other Paths to just try and broaden my approach and make it more holistic and more accessible to more people. So that's. That's really. That was. That was my journey.
- [48:52]
A
Have you noticed, either in yourself or in others, patterns where we're recreating family dynamics inside professional relationships? Be that with a mentor, with someone you're paying for their services, whatever that looks like.
- [49:06]
B
100. I think. I think it all stems back to this idea that we're looking for our parents approved. We're looking for a validation from our parents that we're good enough to be loved. And if we can't get it from them, we're trying to get it through others. Right. It's this idea that every relationship is a projection of our inner world onto them and we have relationships through others, not with others. I really like this idea and so I see it a fair bit, although I try not to probe too much. I just pick up on signals and then try and get them to think about things outside of that paradigm. Right. It's. It's the idea of the paradigm shift. It's like your paradigm is I should or shouldn't have this in my world. And I'm trying to get you into a paradigm without should or shouldn't. I learned this idea of alpha. Alfred Albert Ellis I think the psychologist. And we spend. We spend our whole lives shooting on ourselves. And I like this. I think the human paradigm is should or shouldn't. And I try to take them out of that and talk about what, what do you want and how are we going to get there, rather than should or shouldn't. And if I can do that, it doesn't really matter what got them into that initial paradigm. It matters that we're able to get them out of it.
- [50:26]
A
Profound. Circling back to the concept of burnout or fatigue, people often frame burnout as failure or a lack of discipline. Did you ever interpret your own collapse in moral terms before you understood it physiologically or psychologically?
- [50:41]
B
I was misaligned. I was a corrupted individual who told lies about himself. Others in the world who didn't have any clarity on who. I didn't have any clarity on who I wanted to be and who I was and who I was meant to be and any of this type of stuff. And I was a corrupted individual that needed to be killed metaphorically. And I had to kill my old self, my old corrupted self to be reborn as the person I was meant to be. It's as simple as that. And. And since I did that, I have never suffered or, or knowingly suffered from the risk of anything happening to me on my quest to get to where I want to get to. I have just not suffered.
- [51:25]
A
So what about the relationships that have been shared? Clearly as you go through these changes, you will lose the people you've been associated with.
- [51:32]
B
Almost everybody. Almost everybody, yeah.
- [51:35]
A
So you find yourself now isolated?
- [51:38]
B
No, because I formed new relationships and actually my relationship with my parents when I decided to, I don't want to use the word attack, but when I decided to negotiate my relationship with them first, that took a big hit. My mom didn't speak to me for four months, my dad for a few, few weeks in that time too, because they didn't like what I was proposing and they didn't want to have a discussion. And I said to them, I'm doing this to, to find acceptance that you guys aren't perfect and you weren't doing things perfectly. And I want to accept that, but I want to understand why you did what you did. I want to. And there was nothing untoward, by the way. I'm just talking about decisions they made. You know, they moved me when I was very young from one country to another. I found that unacceptable and I found that hard to deal with. They treated my two brothers differently from how they treated me on certain things. They contradicted themselves and I think this is normal for, for anyone really. This is just the way things are and I just wanted to make peace with that. So they didn't like some of the things I said and they needed time to process, but when they did, we had a much, much better relationship. And I think with, with some of my closest friends, I've got a much stronger relationship. And with some others also, there is this unspoken agreement that we have where we're not going to talk about certain things. You know, I'll just come and hang out with their kids once in a while or you know, I'll come and watch the football with them or we'll go out for a bite to eat in a big group and. But we're not going to sit and have a one to one conversation because they're not going to like what I want to talk about. And I'm really not interested in what they want to talk about.
- [53:16]
A
So to this growth art, how does shame distort decision making in entrepreneurs who appear outwardly successful?
- [53:29]
B
You're talking about the idea of shame now, really, right?
- [53:32]
A
Yes. The idea of shame and how it might distort the decision making in individuals, solopreneurs or entrepreneurs who appear outwardly successful.
- [53:41]
B
I think, I think shit. For me, shame, guilt and shame are two different things. And the reason I'm bringing that up is there are a lot of solopreneurs or even business entrepreneurs, because I used to be in the entrepreneurial world who, who have guilt because they haven't spent enough time with their kids or, you know, they've had to make tough decisions with their staff or things like that. The only time I've really experienced shame is if I've knowingly done something I shouldn't have knowingly, like intentionally gone. This isn't, this is out of my integrity, but I'm going to do it anyway. And that was really my whole life until, until I, until I decided to re. Recreate myself or, or, or create my rebirth, if you like. So I, I don't know if I deal with pe. I, I tend to draw in people that don't really have this kind of energy or past. I tend to draw in people that are just really very clear on what they want and how they want to achieve it. So I guess I'm super fortunate in this way. And, and maybe, you know, it's this idea that you attract, you know, like, for like energy or something. I don't know. I haven't thought about it too much, but I don't, I don't tend to explore shame, put it that way. More, more guilt. But I don't tend to experience or connect with shame in anyone. And I think I'm very fortunate. Now you've made me realize maybe I'm very fortunate in that regard.
- [55:20]
A
Well, if it's a semantic trigger, then let's lean into the idea of guilt. Obviously, some degree of guilt might have motivated some of the conflict between you and your parents. Clearly, when you're going out with a large group of friends, it's why you won't discuss maybe the things that they don't want to discuss. And under those circumstances, how do you see guilt playing the role? How do you see that being the division between you and people who previously you had good relationships with?
- [55:49]
B
Yeah, I, I understand. I, I think I might have misunderstood the question at the beginning. I think here's a really, here's a really good, here's a really good way of thinking about this. I, it, the, the, the goal, if we want to call it that, or the intention, the desired outcome was independence. And independence means I don't need anybody. Remember how I said earlier, no dependence on any one particular individual or group of people. That includes friends. And so that's what I work towards. How do I become independent at every level of analysis? And one of them was being. Was, was making peace internally with whatever anyone thought about me and showing up as who I wanted to be unconditionally, irrespective of what they wanted from me, and dealing with the consequences. And so I started to think about it as the, the reaction of the other to me being who I want and saying what I want in the way I want to say it is going to give me the information I need to know what I need to do next. And, and I made those decisions to either stop speaking to people or to only speak to them in certain scenarios or about certain topics and only to be with them in certain scenarios within certain environments. I made those decisions based on what I saw from them when I presented them with who I really was as fully as possible possible. And, and why I said it was an unwritten rule was I made those decisions and created that relationship with my own intentionality. And they adopted to that. They adopted that or adapted to that, I should say. And so that's why I said it was unspoken, really. Yeah. By the way.
- [57:58]
A
Yeah, go ahead.
- [57:58]
B
If I, if I could. If I could, if I'm okay with myself, and, and I don't mean with myself sitting, doing nothing. I mean with my own thoughts. You know, I, I spend time getting to know authors by reading their books. I spend time getting to know new age thinkers by listening to their podcast or, or watching them on YouTube or. I go out and I, I like to, you know, I went to a. I'm in Montevideo, in Uruguay at the moment. I went to a jazz bar the other day on my own. I just wanted to sit and listen to the jazz. I don't need anybody with me. And in fact, in some sense, I prefer that on occasion because, you know, I go out with certain people who don't have the same intention. You know, they want to chat or they want to, you know, hit on a girl or whatever it is. It's like that we're not here for the same reason. We're not here to create the same experience. So. So I'd rather be on my own. And I've. My mom said to me before she passed away, I was always like that. I was always able to interact with people and, and socialize with them at the drop of a hat, but I was also always able to go up and play on my own in my room and sit and she goes, used to talk to yourself. And, and that was my way of trying to understand things and negotiate with myself and understand myself better. And I think I lost that somewhere along the way and I found it again. And I'm okay being on my own because there's lots of people I can connect with without having to actually interact with them or to get an interaction back from them. There's a lot of ways for me to connect with the world without needing that. And I love gold.
- [59:33]
A
Yeah, that's fantastic. Because so many people really suffer the weight of being segregated from others and having shallow relationships or vague relationships, as
- [59:44]
B
it were, and, and, and, and why? Because they want something out of it. It's completely selfish. It's. If I don't have this relationship, then who am I going to lean on if I need to borrow money or if I need a place to stay or if I need an introduction or if I need someone to look after my kids? And this is what I mean, this is, this for me is out of. You're out of your integrity now. And that's why if you have integrity, nothing else matters. And if you have integrity, by the way, alignment, I think, I think of them as the same. Well, alignment is the means to integrity. Let's, let's put it that way. If you have integrity, you don't need anything anymore. You have what you need, and that's you being whole.
- [60:27]
A
So if there was one thing someone could institute into their life to gain integrity where it's lacking, what would you recommend?
- [60:36]
B
The. The three. Solving the three problems. What do you want? What is your. What do you want your life to look like experientially, in, in as precise detail as possible? How do you want to get there? What are the principles? You know, this is a beautiful idea. A principle is only a principle if followed when most inconvenient.
- [60:58]
A
That's true.
- [60:59]
B
And most people I know don't have principles, let alone follow them when most inconvenient, they don't even have them. And so get real clear on the principles that you're going to follow unconditionally. That's the how you're going to get to where you want to get to and stay in action. Keep progressing and you'll find that clarity that we talked about earlier that aligns the three. Right. Where are you going, how you want to get there, and what you're doing about it. And when you align those three, you will find your integrity for sure.
- [61:28]
A
A profoundly enlightening chat. Thank you so much. If listeners want to find more about you or to join your program, where would you send them?
- [61:36]
B
LinkedIn is my permanent residency so they can find me on on LinkedIn. Mo Choice Moe Choice and I've got a gift if you're happy for me to share.
- [61:45]
A
Of course.
- [61:47]
B
I run a masterclass every few weeks about how I found the front framework that gave me this ability to live life on my own terms and I share the details of that with some of the stories along the way that people seem to really enjoy. And so I've created a special landing page for your guests, MoChoice.com forward/podcast and if they sign up on that page and I know that they came from you, I'll send them a couple of interesting resources that will help them to think about their own lives as well.
- [62:17]
A
That's very generous of you. I appreciate it. You are a gentleman and a scholar. Mo. Hopefully we'll have a chance to chat with you again someday soon.
- [62:25]
B
Please take good care of your I loved it. I loved it. Thank you so much.
- [62:28]
A
Cheers. Mo, I'd like to thank you again for spending time with us. Your reflections are profound and the journey that you have had is one that is not only related, relatable, but remarkably insightful. Your wisdom is something that, in this time of tremendous noise, feels like a peaceful oasis somewhere that transparency can be found with the slightest of efforts. To my listeners, if today's dialogue has stirred reflection in you, I encourage you to sit with it for a moment before rushing back into the noise of the day. The observable unknown exists as a space for thoughtful listening, for careful questioning, and for the slow work of meaning making. If this conversation has been valuable, you can support the work by sharing this episode, leaving a thoughtful review, or reaching out directly with any reflections you may have. Until next time, take care of your nervous system, stay curious, and remember that the most important insights are almost never the loudest ones.