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- [00:06]
A
Welcome to the observable unknown, where science meets the unexplained. I'm Dr. Juan Carlos Rey of drwancarlosray.com and crowscupper.com after two decades of working at the intersection of comparative religious studies, grief counseling, anthropology, quantum mechanics, and consciousness studies, I've discovered that our most profound human experiences often exist in this space between what we can prove and what we can perceive. In this podcast, we'll explore the measurable influences of immeasurable forces, those hidden factors that shape our reality but often escape our traditional scientific frameworks. From the latest research in consciousness studies to the ancient wisdom that's now finding validation in neuroscience and quantum physics, we're here to bridge the gap between academic rigor and spiritual insight. Whether you're a skeptic, a seeker, or simply curious about the deeper mechanics of human experience, you're in the right place. Together, we'll examine the evidence, challenge our assumptions, and explore what happens when we.
- [00:57]
B
Dare to look beyond the obvious.
- [00:59]
A
Today's unique conversation is with a man whose work resists easy categorization. Paul Samuel Doleman is not a guru in the performative sense, nor a thinker. Sealed inside abstraction, he is something much more rare, a traveler of ideas whose wisdom has been tempered by geography, encounter, and ethical consequence. Paul has spent decades moving across cultures, not as a collector of experiences, but as a listener. His work brings him into dialogue with indigenous elders, climate scientists, spiritual leaders, artists, and historians. From Chief Arval Looking Horse of the Dakota Sioux to voices shaping contemporary environmental and ethical discourse, his path has been one of sustained attention rather than spectacle. What distinguishes Paul is his insistence on remaining grounded. He speaks openly about inner orientation, spiritual intelligence, and the quiet presence many traditions describe as divine, while remaining firmly engaged with the practical demands of the human world. Responsibility, stewardship, humility, and discernment are not afterthoughts in his philosophy. They are the spine. This is not a conversation about transcendence as escape. It is about wisdom as something lived, about how one listens without appropriation, how one moves through the world awake, how insight matures when it is tested by travel, by climate, reality, by culture, and by conscience. As always, my intention is not to extract answers, but to allow a way of seeing to reveal itself. I invite you to listen slowly, to notice what resonates, and to stay with the questions that linger after the words end. So, without any further ado, let's join the conversation.
- [02:28]
B
Paul, I'm very happy to welcome you to the observable unknown. I've been looking forward to this conversation because you have a rare dual fluency, the worldly public life of media and craft alongside the private interior discipline of meaning. You've hosted thousands of conversations on what matters most your podcast and you've written books that move through comedy, coincidence and conscience without losing the thread of sincerity that you are known for. So I want to start today off by exploring the machinery behind your warmth. What you think source is, how you stay grounded while speaking about it, and what you've learned about the human animal from a lifetime of paying attention.
- [03:09]
C
Thank you. And I'm still learning.
- [03:12]
B
I think we all are. Absolutely. Let's talk about what matters most. What do you think most people confuse with what matters most and what do they overlook until life forces the lesson?
- [03:25]
C
I love the question. I well we're given an initial blueprint and a set of things and it's very linear. At least I was or it seems like society that it's very linear based and success is material gain and the illusion of security, status and power and these basically insatiable things. Because no matter how much money you have or any of those other things I just named, you never fill the hole or you feel that you can never fill up enough. As we see by the incredible hoarding and the struggles that go on for the ages, somehow that doesn't work. And it really doesn't work. There's nothing wrong with it and you do need the basic modicum of survival and enough but you're not going to find whatever it is in bright shiny things or things you can't take with you because you can't even take your body with you. So you're not going to find it there. So that's what you're sold you. And because you don't know any better, I didn't know any better. You kind of buy in to varying degrees and when it doesn't work you think it's you. And if nowadays that the moment that feels awkward, they probably put you on some sort of prescription medications because to numb you out because it must be you. It can't be the machine which is so holy and sacred. If you're fortunate, you take the pain which is inevitable and the rupture as you use that great word and from that there's potential and possibility to go find something more meaningful. Whatever that is is for the listener or the individual uniquely their own. And then it's a quest, it's the hero's journey. Like Campbell talked about hero A Thousand Faces. And it's not like in a movie where it's like, oh, the hero got struck by lighting or almost drowned and died and gets it and then lives happily ever after. It's an ongoing sort of a fitness program for the spirit, soul and body. There has to be integration. And then you constantly manage that balance. And so that's kind of. I fit that motif that seems to be universal. And then you come in and out of it. There were periods where I was way more spiritual and less material and then more material, less spiritual, like seasons. And then it go. You go with it. And as you get older, that changes too. Like you're. It's almost like you're a planet and you're positioned to. The central star changes and so does everything about it.
- [06:02]
B
So I love this mask. What experience made your answer what it is not in theory, in your nervous system.
- [06:10]
C
My. The. The trauma, the. The. The rupture, that type of stuff. I think it was the brutality of the world and the brutality of the system. I felt like I had been almost a misdiagnosed, but I was sent to the wrong place. I felt like I had done something from somewhere. They sent me here almost as a corporal punishment. It sounds funny in hindsight, but it just feels like so much of what's going on here doesn't seem practical, efficient, kind feels wrong. It's off, you know. And you could say that about today and this morning, and it was very dissonant. And that's what brutal polarity is. So I was, while enormously successful, popular, and what you would think was like, oh, the golden boy. I grew more and more unhappy and disenchanted with every new success and conquest, because it didn't. It was so fleeting. And my thought was I wanted to opt out. I wanted to leave my body. I didn't really want to die, but I didn't want to be here in my early 20s and other times like that, because I just thought it was a brutal place and I was a meaningless fragment in a cold and impersonal universe. But through grace time and lots of synchronicity, which I see now but at the time seemed more random, I started to find clues. And I also almost drowned off a beach in Martha's Vineyard at the time. And in that I had a separation between what I didn't realize at the time, my consciousness and the personality. There was like a remote viewing and things like that, and I got pulled out of the water by beings that suddenly appeared, but I didn't realize that till later. And that was quite the, you know, fall your knees and weep moment. And that was one very dramatic incident, but it was a million other things. Words from a person. The fact that I suddenly had this desire to meditate, even though I'd never heard the word or knew what it was. And then I immediately met a meditation teacher, like two nights later at an art opening. And. And then this. And then Book showed up, and then Joseph Campbell showed up, and the Road Less Traveled and Illusions by Richard Bach. And suddenly I was immersed. And the more I leaned into it, it leaned back fivefold, tenfold. And then I just had one breakthrough experience after the other where it was real. I feel it now. I got chills that there was this ineffable, beautiful, loving force and it cared about me, but it. It was so much more complex and I was it, and it was me. And even saying that, intellectually, if you hear it, it's hollow, it's words. But when you experience it, when you viscerally have these experiences that are mysterious and beyond words, ineffable, it changes you. And then I also met a healer who I went to for years who just ran energy on me and like put me back together like in the Matrix where Neo gets put back together. And so there's really thousands and thousands of experiences. I always used to say it reminded me of when you had a jagged stone and you put it in this beautiful river, and if you checked on it 5,000 years later, it was all smooth and looked like piece of art. And I think that's the process through time and eternity.
- [09:42]
B
That's beautiful. And I'm a huge fan obviously of.
- [09:45]
A
Dr. Campbell as well.
- [09:46]
B
And yeah, I've got to tell you, the idea of the heroes Catabasis being a singular event is something that most of Western civilization really gets drilled down in their consciousness without thinking that it could be a patchwork, it could be a mosaic, multiple events. You write and speak about consciously merging with source. When you say source, are you naming a psychological state, a spiritual reality, a disciplined way of paying attention in a purely physical way?
- [10:15]
C
I'd say all of it. That's the coolest thing you get in this, like, Venn diagram. And when it lines up like a sundial or spiritual dial, whatever it is, it chills. It's suddenly you're there. But the personality, Paul. A story, but yet you're suddenly very, very, very small. But you're there, you're observing and you're part of something. Like you found yourself in a sea of consciousness or sea of something. And it's just beautiful and connected and everything makes sense and there are Varying degrees of it. I've never tried drugs. I hear this sounds like a trip of some mushroom thing or whatever. I've had it in meditations. I can't control it. But I recently did an experiment where if I really focus, I could merge. But if I relax the energy, I went back. So I thought, I realized, and you can converse with it easily. I said, oh, so that's the default setting to be, like, in an identified egoish. And he said, of course. So you can have the experience, but if I'm intentional, I can be more merged. But otherwise I move back into duality and I'm a person. I've had a few experiences in the last few years where without doing anything, I can't explain it, I became like, oh, my God, I'm everything. And it was amazing. And then suddenly, there I was, small and meek and hungry and, you know, annoyed at something or whatever it was. I wasn't the universe, even. But I know that's true because I was there and I had it. Once I went to an ashram in Georgia. This is probably the first time I really felt it. And I sat with this master who, please, begged everyone not to call him a master, which was beautiful. And I sat with him one on one, and also sat right in front of him with thousands of people. And in one of those meditations, I had that where I was like, oh, wow. And I had the very naive thought, I'll never have a bad moment the rest of my life because I see it all now and it's perfect. And within an hour or two, I was a person again. It's accessible to anybody. It doesn't cost anything. It's just there.
- [12:38]
B
It's just there. And, you know, I have to say, since source right now is currently used as kind of a brand word and popular spirituality, what do you refuse to do with that? How do you distance yourself from it being marketed, essentially?
- [12:52]
C
Yeah. I try not to market it. And there's so many words. I remember when Eckhart Tolle didn't like to use the words love and God because God now, Christianity, Jesus, there are words with a lot of baggage. I guess if we found out our deity was named Nazi, it's a Nazi. You'd be like, oh, that's. How do I do that? You know, because of the baggage of the word. It would be funny, though, right? Like, if it was everything backwards. And there was a great book, Childhood's End, where these beings who came to help the earth actually, when they were finally revealed, looked like what we Would call Satan. They were red with horns and it freaked everyone out. But they were, like, hid. Because they said in your myths, you remember us, but you've made us the evil entity when we're actually the helpers. So when you come to source, spirit, soul, whatever, it's pointing. And even as I'm in it, I can't discard. I bet I can't even sometimes define it or explain stuff that's happened to me, to myself. So you have to. But it helps, like in situations like this, to have dialogue, you know, so we can even order off a menu if we didn't have any words. Be very chilling and tough. But ultimately I think it has to just go find. If you can go find an experience at yourself if you're listening. And maybe again, and it's different and yet the same every time, you'll go, oh, people that have had these experiences go. I know what you mean. Yeah, I've had that. Or people that died and came back. And the. The teachers teach in metaphors. So I remember being in the ocean, and it said, you're a wave and consciousness is the ocean. And where does the wave start or stop in the ocean. The source, it says, depends on how you feel. So when I'm your level of awareness, expandedness. So when I was everything, I felt like the ocean. And when I'm small and petty, I'm a little tiny wave that's about to hit the shore. But it's still all the same. It's always the ocean, and yet it's never, ever exactly the same as it was a second ago. Because there's infinite variables, so it's both. And that's where the brain starts to blow a fuse. Because it has a hard time with contrast and polarity and holograms and what would then give it another word, phenomenon, which means we can't explain it. That's the original Greek meaning.
- [15:18]
B
So when you're in this space, fixing your attention on returning to source, what kinds of things do you find distracting you? What kinds of things pull you out of that space?
- [15:29]
C
The news of the day, an aching knee. Biological desires, loss, grasping, greedy thoughts of not enough. The horn, the latest atrocity, Aging. I mean, things. But what you do is. You say I do is I sit there and I just watch. It's almost like sitting in front of a madman episode and my ego's pitching me things. Do you want to think about this? Do you want to worry about that? Do you want to fantasize about this? And if I just sort of watch it all and go, wow, this is fascinating. It's a living energy thing, whatever it is, and don't give it a lot of energy one way or the other. It sort of peters out and then behind the curtain, then the current lifts up and then there is no curtains. And then I just try to observe and listen. I don't have a real focus, like, oh, I think I'll go find the source. And then you can just sort of get into the zone. Walk in the Nature's easy for me, walking the beach in the redwoods garden at night. It's sort of like the quiet of it. The stars are great for perspective canyons, but you know, if you can find it just in your chair and it's there too, but make it easier if you want to sit in a comfortable place, go somewhere quiet, put on the waves, whatever you think. I listen to ohms of monks actually chanting and that vibration will just kind of flips a switch and the brain goes, ah, there it is.
- [17:13]
B
Now you've lived in rooms where reputation is currency and also in nature where no one cares who you are. What did each world teach you about the self?
- [17:24]
C
Beautiful question. I actually like both and it's easy to say, oh, this one's better or worse. I primarily reside in the quieter world, which feels more real, like off stage, you know, people say you don't always want to be on, but what's fun is if you've had sort of some modicum of awareness expansion to then go put on the Armani jacket, the gold whatever, the suit, the role. It's like you're gonna go play the sheriff or something. And then to participate joyfully, but not with any sense of if it happens, I'm more. If it doesn't, I'm less. It's like going to the game and rooting like crazy or playing a board game and bingo, you're trying to win. But all right, we, we won some, we lost or we got, you know, routed. But you can have a lot of fun that way. But I used to be in it and really think that everything about me was tied up in knit and I was so ambitious. It's hysterical now. I'm glad I was. And I understand that that's a phase, but it's so freeing to not to just know you're already it. You're already there, you know, and then you participate too. You have to. Maybe you have to render on a Caesar, pay the bills and do stuff. And the last time I was in LA was like a year or so ago. Helping friends try to get some music and films. And it was the most fun I'd ever had. I had a blast. And because it was strange and wonderful that I literally didn't care. I was just playing. I've never seen the Law of Attraction for whatever that is. Worked like and so effortlessly and so much fun. It was like it hacked it the casino. And after a while they. They were going to kick me out. Like, oh, no, you're not supposed to win like this in and not care. You're. You're ruining the game for the others. You know, beat it. Here, here's some winnings. Get out of here.
- [19:21]
B
So when you're going into that space, when you're communing with Source, what does it strip away first for you? Urgency, Vanity, Fear? Narrative.
- [19:31]
C
Yeah, I love it. This. You've obviously had these experiences because you describe it much more eloquently than I am. The. Yeah, it's that it's. It's. It's the literal. Where you're not any of the things you just described. There's an underlying love and humility and sort of. You're so infinitesimal, but you're like part of the team. You're part of the big team, but it's all. It's not you that you've been known to think of as you. Although if they call you at the dmv, you have to answer to that. You know, they're going to yell out, infinite Source. Oh, is that okay? I'm here for my driver's license. Okay, come on, Infinite Source. Go sit with Infinite Source. And that will make you an fake id. The. It's more just, oh, okay. And then you let everything happen. You're not really in a hurry and you just kind of being wherever you are, or if you're sitting on a plane or you're sitting at a coffee shop, you're sitting in your chair at home or sitting in the park or this is happening, that's the next thing that's happening. And I always look and ask. I say, let me just be useful in a loving way and be kind. Let me just. That's my currency. Let me be present and kind with a smile. Open the door, listen, really listen. And then be generous because of one. Whatever that is. But I mean, I did. I got it made this time. But. And okay, how can I serve? And I literally ask, let it be joyful. I like to learn. Enjoy. I don't want to learn the hard way. Suffering. Let the channel stay open. Please guide me. Mh. And let this be a joyful day. Protect my form because I am a big baby. I don't want to hurt and all right, what do you want me to do next? I don't need to know the nine year plan or the nine month plan or even the nine day thing. Just what should I do next? Which way am I going? Or what should I eat? What should I not eat? Should I say hi to so and so? Should I be quiet? Should I open that door? Should I pay for that? Somebody to do that? Oh, it'll randomly just suggest things. Give him $20. Oh. And in my mind I say, how about sin?
- [21:58]
B
So here's where it might be a bit strange, but I have to ask. We live in Western civilization. We live a very special kind of life, very privileged to be sure. How would this advice land with people in third world countries who don't have the advantages or the safety that we have to commune with Source in the way that we can commune with Source.
- [22:21]
C
Great, great question. That's also why I love to travel. Well, here's a bit of irony in dichotomy. So this year I was in Vietnam and Thailand and Dubai and these other places and I was around a lot of people who had no, not much material means, very day to day, very moment to moment, did not live in any of the privileged and lavish luxury that I have. And then I know people with a thousand fold more than me. What was fascinating to me is that more often than not. Sounds cliche. There was an innate joy for the most simple things and for each other and for things like family and community and a generosity, an open heart, a kindness that despite working seven days a week, 14 hours a day. Unbelievable, Unbelievable to experience the inspiration of these people. The natural smile, the eye contact, the lack of pretension or playing a role or puffed up piousness to protect oneself. Just there they were. If they had an apple, maybe you needed half of it. They're the most generous people, the people with the least. And the easiness of the smile, it was also heartbreaking. Like to be in the Muslim country and realize how maligned it's been through lies. And I remember sitting in a park and I try not to cry when I'll tell the story. I watched a father play with his daughter and the way he ran reminded me my dad at the park with us and I burst into tears. I like burst into tears. And I thought we're all the same. And he just a dad with his little girl playing soccer. He does, he. He's just Trying to feed his kids and love his life. And then I remember walking past all these men and they were going. It was. I was there once during Ramadan, and I was like, curious. I saw these mobs and this beautiful man just said, oh, you're curious. So where are you from? I said, united States. He said, why don't you come? Come. We're going to give our prayers of thanks. And then we have this lavish banquet every night. We feed anybody and everybody. And he said, it doesn't matter what you call your God or whatever, or whatever, but all beings are welcome. I crying right now thinking about it. I started crying. He said, ah. I said, oh, it's just the beauty of the human spirit, man. And, you know, then I go to Vietnam with this, our horrible history here of what we did to those poor people. And I still could feel and see the scars. My heart hurts now. And what were we doing over there? Trying to steal their stuff. And like, we are now in Venezuela and everywhere else, the empire. And it just broke my heart. And yet they were leery because they're like, I probably look like a CIA guy or the devil. But once you got past, oh, you know, it was like I was a lion amongst the gazelles. And it's like, oh, but he, He.
- [25:36]
B
He's a.
- [25:37]
C
He's veggie. Sure. Yeah. Well, come sit with us then, you know. And what's your country like? What do you think of our country? What do you think of this? What do you think of that? You know, that's why it's good to get out of a bubble. So materialism will not bring deep connection to peace. And if you're attached to it, like anything, your identity, your role, the letters after your name, you're creating layers and obstacles to your own self fulfillment, awakening.
- [26:14]
B
So would you say that materialism, generally speaking, is the opposite of source?
- [26:19]
C
I would say it's an aspect of source. And source is effortless. I would say the blind pursuit of materialism at the expense of connection, kindness, compassion, and your own humanity would be the opposite of a deeper, more resonant life. And connection to source. Everything source. Even Donald Trump. I have to eat that like a sandwich on toast. But I have to remember that, that these are characters in this dream, right? Is the comet bad? That wipes out us and the dinosaurs? Well, if you're very attached to the form, your carbons in this particular time, it's not good. But like the God of Shiva's death is the liberator too. It liberates you from the dream that said the train on the track should be avoided unless you're looking for a reboot.
- [27:12]
B
Very clear. It's very direct. I like that.
- [27:15]
C
Very clear.
- [27:19]
B
Now, you've written books with a strong current of coincidence and encounter. Do you see synchronicity as meaning or just pattern recognition that becomes meaningful through response?
- [27:30]
C
It could be both. You're dancing on both sides of polarity, and I love it. Also, for all those out there saying, at this point, this guy needs to shut the fuck up. I hear you and I'm with you on this thing. That would be me, not you. But, and here's an irony I love. When I was younger, I had so much to say and wanted to get on all these shows, and I did a lot of interviews. Now that I'm older, I feel like I rarely do stuff like this because I feel like who am I to say anything? And I just shut up and be nice, you know? But enough of that. But a shout out to DIA is like, gotta get you out there. Yeah, she's the best.
- [28:04]
B
She really is.
- [28:05]
C
She's incredible. So I love her. She gets it like nobody's business.
- [28:09]
B
It's a brilliant, really brilliant human. Beautiful.
- [28:11]
C
Yeah, yeah. So it's kind of. Tell me the great question again. You just ask me some really good.
- [28:17]
B
So. So with your writing, as many. As many books as you've written, there's always a strong current of coincidence and encounter. So do you see synchronicity as meaning or as pattern recognition that becomes meaning after the response has been yielded?
- [28:31]
C
It's up to you. Like, all of it. Everything is. You define the meaning. People want to find meaning. Instead, what you do is you create meaning. You don't find it. It. The. The art materials are everywhere. What are you going to make of it? What are you going to create today? To me, synchronicity. A lot of times, one I. What's part of my intentional prayers? It's like, why don't you surprise me? Do some great crazy today. And when it does, I like shrieking like, I can't believe it. And it'd be like if I went to the restaurant, I ordered a steak or swordfish. And then when they brought it, I was like, oh, my God, it's a miracle. How'd you know? And they're like, you idiot, you ordered it. What the wrong with this guy? So it's more like to me, they're invisible clues. There's this, these. There's this. These energies, very playful. If you want to play with it, has a wicked Sense of humor. And it's loving, but it's. If you're playing with the game, the quantum particles, the dancing masters. Gary Zukoff called him. It's like you can really start playing around with this stuff. Some of it's just so. You got to be kidding me. Crazy. Like it's so wild now. And I, I loved writing it down and I used to keep a journal and I'd forget 90% of them. And then I go back and read stuff and go, that. That alone should have changed my whole life. It was so unbelievable at the time. And I think it's kind of fun to just kind of play peekaboo with this beautiful consciousness. It loves to play too. What else has it got to do? It's hanging around for eternity.
- [30:07]
B
That's fair.
- [30:07]
C
And everything is communicating. You could, you could talk to everything. It's got some energy.
- [30:13]
B
That's interesting. You know, I'm reminded of Dr. Carl Gustav Jung in discussing, talking about it, really just representing acausal events that get contextualized by the observer so that it needs the interaction in order to have value, to have validity. It looks like you're. You're finding them in, in all of the things that you do. So when a striking coincidence happens, what's your rule? Act, wait, watch.
- [30:38]
C
Usually, well, it depends on what it asks, but usually when the real synchronicities, cool stuff happens or the. The events, it's just to me to bask, laugh and be in the gratitude of it or to marvel at it's the way everything's connected and how unbelievably intelligent it is or loving or. Or what is it up to? Does it even know? Is it just playing? A couple years ago, I was in Martha's Vineyard on a fall end of summer, fall day and I was leaving town on my bike and it was asking me to go to a specific place and have some tea. And I didn't want to. I was like, nah, I'm ready to get back. And with every block it felt, no, please go back. And so I turned around, I go to this place, Rosewater, and I sit in the corner. No one was there at the time except the gals working there was. It's like 90 minutes before close. So I sit in the corner table, get my tea. And sometimes that happens and nothing happens. Maybe I'm. I don't know. I don't know what. Cosmically, why it needed me to go sit in a corner. After a bit, a group of women came in and sat right next to me. Even though the place was wide open, and they're all talking. They were young and dynamic and everything. And I had brought my recyclable metal thing. And one of the young women next to me said, oh, I left mine. I wish I had. Good for you to be conscious about that. And that was the opening. And we ended up having this really long, deep conversation like you and I are having. She asked about awareness. She did this. She wanted that. Do you meditate? Will you find the questions were amazing. She's from New Zealand. She was visiting her friends there first time. Where should I go? Go up to here. The energy is incredible. And then the beautiful group leaves. And I thought, all right. And I felt like, all right, you're done. And I thought, oh, I was supposed to be there for that. Right Then the girls from behind the counter came running over and said, oh, my God, I didn't know, you know, Lord. I said, who? And they said, lord, the singer. And I was like. And they're like, that's who you were talking to. She came and said. She moved from the table over. And you guys were. I was like, oh, my Lord. No pun intended. And then. That's the funny part. Like, oh, I had a. I went and had tea with the Lord, you know, like, really? Even with the name, it's a little on the nose. Can we give a shout out?
- [33:04]
B
Yes.
- [33:05]
C
But I was like, now, whatever it is that told me, go back and have a tea. That's is part of me. I don't know.
- [33:13]
B
Yeah, the timing was perfect.
- [33:15]
C
Yeah, what the hell? Or with the hitchhiking with the book. Hitchhiking with Larry David. That day I was guided to hitchhike. Hadn't in years. And then I stick out my thumb and Larry David, the comedian picks me up. And then we have this incredible conversation like we're having. At one point, he said, I never pick up hitchhikers or blah, blah, blah. Never. You know, you're just. And you only did it because it was here or whatever. And even then, never hear. So I was like, what made you pick me up? Why'd you pick me up? And he thought for a while, and it was like. It was a little uncomfortable. There was that long a silence. And then he put his hand on his heart and said, I don't know. I just felt like I was supposed to. That's that sound you just made.
- [33:58]
B
Yeah.
- [33:58]
C
I get chills. Yeah. And then we had a ton of synchronicity that summer. And we would joke, like, we got to figure out what this is. And I'D always say, we need to go to lunch and figure it out. And he'd say, no and laugh. But I was always there first. Thank God I'd be in jail still. And at the end of the summer, on the last night of the summer, I was laying in bed. I was having a very conscious dream, which I still have. This whole other life at night with people that have passed in other dimensions and everything that's completely unexplainable, but it's as real as this, maybe more real. But that night, I'm in a theater, beautiful theater. I can see it to this day. And the universe, the silence suggests, why don't you write a book? And I'm sitting here in a theater like, I'm in this outfit now. And I said, on what? And it lit up over the stage. Hitchhiking with Larry David. And I remember going, what a great title. Yeah, I see. Yeah, it's clever. But write a book about what? And then all of a sudden, like, wait, where am I? This is different. And then I realized it was in a different place. They said, you come here a lot. Just only remember it sometimes. I said, I hope I remember this. And they said, you will. And when I woke up, I wrote it on a little piece of paper. Hitchhiken with Larry David. Carried it around for weeks. I'd never written a book. And then I just thought, all right, let's. I'm gonna say yes to life. I'm gonna say yes to the invitation. I'm just gonna start writing. I didn't think, I'm gonna write a book. Just start writing. Friend moves in who's going through divorce. He takes the upstairs and he sees me working away. And it turns out he's. I've seen him as a TV producer, actually, had been an editor at a magazine for nine years. So the universe moves. An editor in above me, my own house. I was doing a kindness to a friend. Yeah, shout out to Peter. He helps me edit this thing. Still don't know if it's a book or a Google document. And it goes out into the world, right? And this last week, I've gotten four emails from people in different places who told me that book meant something to them. Sometimes I got five in a week. Sometimes I won't get anything for months. But they're very personal notes. And it was almost like one of those NASA explorers that just passed some planet, and somebody said, oh, I saw the explorer. Thank you. Thank you. It's crazy. Who can explain that? I can't.
- [36:28]
B
Yeah, that's hard, isn't it?
- [36:30]
C
Yeah.
- [36:31]
B
Do you feel like you've ever misread a coincidence and maybe learned the cost of trying to force meaning?
- [36:36]
C
Probably too many times to count. You just described my dating life. I couldn't help that. Low hanging fruit. I think I'm supposed to save you because you're beautiful. Oh, please don't save me. And. Oh, no, no, no. I better. I know better. I'm reminded. I'm the. I'm sitting by the river and I heard a splash. And this monkey comes out of the water holding a fish and he's carrying the fish up the tree. Fish looks dismayed. I'm the monkey. And the monkey said, thank God I saw you or you would have drowned. That's me trying to help.
- [37:16]
B
I love that.
- [37:17]
C
Yeah, that's me trying to help from a lack of consciousness or from an egoic place or try to bend the coincidence, you know? And I see people doing it all the time. I think Jesus wants me to steal the money.
- [37:30]
B
Oh, really?
- [37:31]
C
Or to kill the stranger. Oh, really? That's interesting. Interpretation of the gospels. He's happy bomb too. Let me find that in the Bible.
- [37:41]
B
That's good. I love that. So, something slightly different. You were a professional musician and songwriter for quite some time. What do you feel music has taught you about conversation that most interviewers never learn?
- [37:55]
C
One of the most interesting questions I've ever been asked. So thank you.
- [37:58]
B
Absolutely.
- [37:59]
C
Music was my great, great love. Part of me still wishes it had been real estate. Early on I'd be a lot richer. But I got into music and that was my first great love. And interestingly enough, that's where I learned to meditate. Before I meditated, I used to turn the lights out and play the piano for hours. And there would be no time and no me. Just music and musical notes. And there was no space between the notes and the person playing it. If there was a person there and in the room, the sound that was. I didn't realize at the time. And then on a personal physiological level that music creates incredible neural networks in your brain that allows you to process the kind of consciousness things that we're having happen and we're talking about. Again, there's that synchronicity manifest in form. So the beauty of your question too is music is mostly space and silence. At one point, and you wouldn't know it today because I haven't shut up. But at one point I decided the lost art of listening. I just want to be a better listener. I just want to be a better listener. That was the success, I think, the key to the success of the show. I try to never. I try to say as little as possible, like you're doing. You're actually beyond phenomenal. And just let these people shine and let them come out and try to guide it like a shepherd or. Or. Or the orchestrator. And that. I think all of that, combined with the music and being and stuff and listening and loving silence, that has expanded. And that listening, that desire, I meant it more linear, like, I want to just be a better listener around folks in life. It turned into the spiritual listening because by that very intense, aware listening, which is a combination of intense and relaxed, that's. That space is where suddenly, if you're okay with that quiet, suddenly there is a voice. It's the ultimate voice, or it's the voice of the redwood or something, or the hawk, the tree, the wind. It's there, but it's very subtle. Very subtle. And then you start a dialogue in a conversation, which is probably an eternal conversation, but now it's just, you're not the leaf on a tree. You're a person or whatever. You are the porpoise. And that, again, is available to anyone if they're willing to create the space and get still and wait. Be open.
- [40:39]
B
That's beautiful. When you've experienced moments when perhaps a guest is guarded, what's your musical move? Do you soften, challenge, or do you change key?
- [40:49]
C
Great question. The. A lot of times I've only had a couple that started out that way, Summer. It's almost like. And I mean, I'm lucky. I've been done a lot of these. There's been a couple, very rare, where it felt like we'd brought somebody in for questioning. And, you know, they were trying to say, like, or a teenager. All right, so where were you guys last night? You know, I don't know where. So my move usually is humor and pointing it out or making fun of it and poking. There hasn't been too many of that. I'm on. I guarantee the next show will be right. Nothing but that. But it's just. I find humor is a great opener.
- [41:25]
B
It is.
- [41:26]
C
And. And saying that the unspoken. Just directly and making fun of it or whatever and doing that. That's. That's what I like to do. But it's been rare, thank God, because the guests are phenomenal and they sense the space. There's a metaphysical thing that goes on because they'll say, I've never done one like that, or I felt really safe, or I've never Said that before. Even out to myself, yeah, that's beautiful when there's that kind of discovery.
- [41:51]
B
It is. It's. It's the growth of the conjunction, you know, it's. It's fantastic stuff. Now, I have to say you're about Page is a manifesto of daily practice. Caring, balance, quiet time in nature, laugh, being led. Which one is the hardest to keep honest when life gets busy.
- [42:11]
C
Depends on how the wheel spins. I would say probably the balance because there is a tendency for the mind to want to stare at the car accident or to go deeper. I have to sometimes there's a part of me that'll say to the ever curious deep dive guy, the nerd, did we really need to read the whole autopsy report? I mean, I think we have it right. Yeah, it's funny. It's like really want to go to the linear notes now. Another angle of that thing back into the left for those. That. That's a very obscure reference, the movie jfk. But it's kind of. Okay, that's enough of that. We're getting on the bike. Let's go swim in the ocean. I'm. I'm closing this thing down, you know. All right, the next book is fiction or something. Let's watch some Peter Sellers. And being there, like, no, no. So it's finding that not okay, you know, a balance. We're not staying up too late. Like, okay, can read tomorrow, right? Let's get some sleep. We're going to feel like tomorrow.
- [43:18]
B
Yeah.
- [43:19]
C
Same with sugar. Let's not eat sugar. And if we do only a little. Please. Everything balance all the time.
- [43:25]
B
Yeah.
- [43:25]
C
The humor luckily stays no matter how. How weird things get. Sometimes the harder, weirder things get. The humor gets darker and it's funnier, though. It's great material. That was my whole life, like the most serious moments. I had to say this, the funny thing, because it just begged for it.
- [43:42]
B
Yeah, it's. It's definitely panacea. There's no doubt about that.
- [43:47]
C
So this.
- [43:48]
B
This is an interesting path, this idea of coming back to balance, because that's the hard peace for you. It also speaks to the subject, if I may make an observation, that you have a tendency to really fix yourself on something like source or like joy, like otherness. And there's great value in that. A value that wouldn't be achieved if you really contained yourself the way balance requires. One to. How do you reconcile this? How do you see yourself as someone who both looks at with great intensity a particular topic and completely dives in, but then pulls back because balance is demanded.
- [44:29]
C
Great, great stuff. And it's interesting because there was. I had those angel cards, and I think for about 800 times in a row, I pulled self acceptance. And I would say, I want another card, which said a lot. You know, basically, I have. If you look back, and I don't know if it's a life imprint or whatever, I would always dive really intense and deep into things. Like, I got so into sports, and I had to be. I was hopeless perfectionist. That was part of the unhappiness, but also drove to excellence. There was like, how good can we get shooting a basketball or throwing a football? And I would just be relentless. And then it was playing the piano, and I'd play a million hours, and it was joyful. It wasn't like a siege, you know, but. And then after that, for a while, it was something else. And then with the writing, also reading, I just read everything. And I tend to just fall deep down these holes. And that's why you have to really. I have to be really vigilant to make sure, like, when I even played the piano, that I would go ride the bike down to the beach and swim and get some sun and play basketball and not, you know, leave the gang completely and. Or. I remember I lived in the woods for a while and then start to get up there in the woods with my dogs on thousands of acres outside of Nashville. And I'm an extrovert. I love people. But I also needed a lot of alone time. But let's start to get out there and it's sort of like, I think I'm good out here. If somebody just dropped some food off, you know, it's just I'm out here with the nature and you kind of get a little feral. So. And then luckily, you get a relationship and you'd have to get, you know, like, bring you into the shop, clean you up and do all that kind of stuff again.
- [46:22]
B
Yeah.
- [46:22]
C
So there is a tendency to not moderate, to have to consciously, you know, add the spinach to the diet or the other things, and then you feel better anyway, so. Thank God. I do love pop culture and sports and things like that to a degree where I'm not just completely whacked out.
- [46:49]
B
You know, like, do those things keep you human? Do those things keep you grounded?
- [46:53]
C
Yeah. And also watching the way I'm fascinated by the human species, and I kind of read and watch all this political stuff. I don't watch tv. I can't. I'm allergic to it. But I, I, I, you know, I love the deep dives and I like to get an event and look at it from six different sources. And that's also while traveling, what do you. To see the country from a different degree or see a Muslim country up close. I'm fascinated by the human experience. My experience as a human in this world and that always. That's very grounding because the world's so brutal. It's so beautiful, but it is brutal. And where we are, we're so primitive. Holy. It's hard to watch, you know, like it's a daycare center and they let the kids play with grenades. So every day you kind of go in and go, oh my God. You know, it's. I love that metaphor. I've never used it before, but it's.
- [47:51]
B
An excellent metaphor, let me tell you.
- [47:54]
C
And then, but then you say, well don't put the grenades in there with the kids. Oh, we always do that. In fact, the name of our place is Happy Grenade. Oh God, send me back. No, why don't you try to be helpful?
- [48:13]
B
Yeah, that's definitely the age that we're in. I, I think there's something to that. The, the starkness between the beauty of source and balance and obviously the horrors that are yielded by just day to day life. Yeah, there's something about the difference between the numinous and the material that seems like it's the same parallel there. You've interviewed an enormous range of people. What pattern have you noticed in the ones who are genuinely wise, not simply intelligent?
- [48:47]
C
Great questions. Again, this is the best interview, I would say. Humility, ongoing learning and openness, curiosity, a love of the process, a love of life, a love of others. I'm thinking of a great man, Irvin Laszlo, who was nominated for. I think that he's. All these Nobel Prizes. He's written like 100 and something books. He's like 100 years old. He was a concert pianist. He's from Hungary, fled the Nazis, been on the show half dozen times or more. Couldn't be more open, curious. Love to meet you, generous. So I would say humility, love, kindness, compassion, open hearted, generous, but also discerning with good boundaries. But here, here to be helpful. And then the common theme with a lot of people, why would they come on or do things? There's an element of selflessness that. Not martyrdom, which is horrible, but just to try to like, oh man, I'm so fortunate to be alive. Like he escape for his life and some people he know didn't. But at least I live now. I can Give back. And maybe I can brighten the day or illuminate or enlighten or whatever it is, or these people that founded, like Maggie Doyle founded this learning center in Nepal helping thousands of kids. Just very quiet, huge heroes, you know, touching lives in the sea of brutality and barbaric barrack axe. There are these bright shining oasis in these lights. Becca Stevens, countless others. The book, your podcast, it's. It's just trying to do something back for the greater good, not for the great greater raising of the self. That's the reason why I did the show. I mean, I didn't start out that way. It was look how Smart Paul Is was the original title. And then we changed that. It didn't. Didn't test well. And then they suggested look how Dumb Paul Was. But I thought that was too on the nose. They. The. It's about like conversations and it's like a buffet. I put out my tiny little buffet. Maybe somebody in the books were like a little bit of, here, I'm going to shoot these little things out like a cannon. They'll circle the globe like satellite, and maybe they'll help somebody somewhere.
- [51:08]
B
Yeah, that's beautiful.
- [51:10]
C
Yeah, that's all I can do.
- [51:12]
B
Do you think they share a relationship to uncertainty that feels distinct from everyone else's?
- [51:19]
C
I. I like that term. Well, how honest do you want to be? Everything is uncertain.
- [51:25]
B
Yeah, that's true.
- [51:26]
C
The 747 crashed through his window right as he said those words. You know, it is. Or the comet or the nuclear war. You know, Trump shot something and Putin shot. I mean, or anything. The tree fell, the. The stroke, the clot broke free. We can't cope with that uncertainty, so we create these crazy artificial structures to try to overcompensate. And then we have the trillion dollar distraction business to distract us from the fact that it is so fragile and it is so fleeting and we don't even know if we'll make it to the end of the day.
- [52:04]
B
That's all on fire.
- [52:06]
C
It's all on fire. Yeah. And at best, it's nanosecond. Like, soon as you figure that out, that's like the wonder why you want to jump. It's like, wait, everything dies. It's all temporary, nothing. Well, what's the point? Yeah, and then you go, well, you somehow pulled a raffle ticket. You're here. What kind of person do you want to be? And there isn't morality. The universe said what feels best, and the things I described felt better. So be selfish and enlightened. Selfishness and do what makes you happy, not at the expense of anyone else.
- [52:40]
B
Oh, you need to coin that enlightened selfishness.
- [52:43]
C
Coin it, print it. I'll sell it as a mem. Coin. People are saying.
- [52:51]
B
So if you said, let's say, wisdom had, hypothetically, a scent or a fragrance, what do you feel it is most related to? Restraint, humor, tenderness, rigor, or something stranger?
- [53:03]
C
I wouldn't say rigor, but discipline is important. Wisdom, I think humble. I just think humility is such a key. From humility usually comes love, kindness, and compassion. These are pillars of just these gentle, gentle soul. We know when we experience people like that. And sometimes after we kill them, we lionize them. We have to kill them first because they buck the system. But then time goes by and we. We donate days to them or put them on church windows or whatever. But it's always the same thing. Be kind, caring, and then you can go as deep as you want on this thing. I once asked it, you know, for some deep meat, some. Something about what is the ultimate? This and that. And it's always honest. What else could it be? It can't withhold. It is everything. It said, I'll tell you this. I'm a mystery unto myself. I said, huh? It said, I'm a mystery unto myself. I never started, I never ended. I am just here. I'm here. I don't know where I came from. I have no idea where I'm going. I'm not time or space. I don't know what the ultimate mystery is. I am discovering it through you and everything else, and yet I am it. So I don't know. If you figure it all out, tell me. I don't know. And I said, you can't, can you? And I said, no. It's an ongoing, infinite, ultimate mystery. The brain just doesn't. What does the brain do with that? Can't do anything with that. It's trying to tie its own shoes. So just swim in it. Swim in it. Make some observations. And then you'll be here for a second, and then you'll. You'll be something else or you won't be everything. You'll be everything or nothing.
- [54:51]
B
That's fantastic. So I have to. I have to kind of address that carefully because it. It seems like a Gordian knot, you know, this concept of being both subject and object, very much a part of dream logic, something that Joseph Campbell has spoken extensively on. Is this really at the core of what source is to be, both I and thou? Or is it something more minuscule and and less grandiose.
- [55:19]
C
It's both. So you keep describing the paradox on both sides. And there's a point, I guess, if you could see, if you looked at a hologram and it's either two old ladies or a ship, whatever they are. But for. If you're just somehow in the most. Razor's Edge, that great book.
- [55:43]
B
Yeah.
- [55:44]
C
You see both, but just for a flash, because as soon as you go, oh, there's the women. Nope, there's no shit, there's. But if you're right there, and if you keep trying to make it dark or light, cool or hot, kind or cruel, nope, now you're in polarity. You felt, you tipped. But in that eternal, which is beyond time and space, it's beyond everlasting. That's. It's more. That's a temporal form torn. If it's just in the eternal now, the in between, you see both and you are both. How could that be? The wave experiences itself as the sea, and the wave, it's impossible to define. And the second you try, you're either or, and you're back in polarity, but through grace, another word, magic or whatever, patience, luck, I don't know. There it is. And it expands you like a balloon. And when the balloon goes back to its normal level, it's just a little bit bigger than it was before. Right. Sometimes people blow up. It's too much. They take drugs or maybe they just turned a light, but they don't go anywhere. Whatever you really are, that's the eternal thing that never ends. It came in, it goes, it, it goes out. It's the one on the controls. It is the game.
- [57:14]
B
It is. It's very Taoist. Very, very Taoist of you. It seems very focused on rejecting polarity and accepting unity instead.
- [57:25]
C
I wouldn't use the word rejecting. It's embracing both. It goes beyond. If you reject duality, they're going to come from me in the house and then I don't know what am I going to eat, so. But it's deeply embracing the eternal in the duality, finding the great. What's the great? Blake. Finding eternity in a grain of sand.
- [57:47]
B
I love William Blake. Thank you.
- [57:49]
C
That's. Yeah, me too. The poets do a good job. They do.
- [57:53]
B
They do. Rumi, Dylan Thomas, I mean.
- [57:55]
C
Yeah.
- [57:56]
B
That's all. No dominion. Fantastic.
- [57:58]
C
Yeah. Oh, there it is. And some of wall, leaves of grass, all the brand stuff. The prophet. Holy shit. It's like. But there it is. To see turning a grain of sand or in the smile of a child, you Know the heartbreak of it all in the beauty, tears of joy, the dichotomy, the polarity. So you're not rejecting anything, but you have boundaries. Just like, do you want to sign up to be an ICE or Nazi? No, thank you. Now they point a gun at your head. Maybe you don't want to hang around any longer. I don't know. Somebody asked me, what would they do if they put you in a camp? I'd say, what's the food like? But it's also. Maybe that's what the Native Americans do. They used to catch them and then they would just leave their bodies. So you. If they said, if it put me in a camp, hopefully it'd have a high voltage wire. You know, it's like waking up in a dream and going, all right, I'm cornered. I'll see you guys later. You know, let me reboot this thing. So it's embracing both of it. It's not rejecting. And that's hard. It's hard to embrace the whole thing. Yeah, that's an ongoing. It's ongoing. You didn't get. I've got my embrace certificate. Why am I struggling today? I went to Embrace University and graduated, gave them a lot of money, and they printed up this really ugly portrait of myself. But it's like, I mean, I'm racing here.
- [59:22]
B
Yeah, yeah, you are racing.
- [59:24]
C
To be sure, to make it a.
- [59:26]
B
Bit mundane, you stepped away from a very successful entertainment company to pursue obviously these avenues of meaning. What did that decision cost you substantively? And then what did it return to you as a person?
- [59:38]
C
That's a good one. The, well one. It was hard because it sounds like just decided. So when I started to realize it wasn't working and I'd put the jacket on, I was making more money than ever made. I'd been like a poor musician forever and never materialistic. Then I thought, let's play the money game and be fancy and all this cool stuff. And I gotta say, I loved it. It was so much fun. It was fun to have that. To play that role was like a great. I was in that movie and I was great in it. I won awards. But it just was like after a while, there was a voice the whole time going, all right, we're not doing this forever. Right? This is boring. And you realize it's a game. So as that voice grew, I started bouncing the idea of like, I think I'm just going to walk away and sell it. And everybody pretty much said, you're nuts, you're crazy. My own dad from the Depression. And my beautiful girlfriend at the time thought, huh, I didn't sign up for. What are you gonna. Well, everyone more, what are you gonna do next? And I would beg the universe, what's the next thing? Tell me where I'm landing. It's like, ah, you got plenty of money. You moved to town. 500 bucks. Once you travel, take some time off. Ready? Like, that's it. Like, what's my next identity? I don't know, Drifter. Oh, I can't do that. So the. I finally had the courage to do it. Only because they threatened me, the universe, my own soul said, all right, there's an easy way. You walk away or you get really sick. I was like, oh, it's blackmail. So, of course, I got out. And what it cost me is my lifestyle changed a lot. I wasn't getting massages all the time, and I sold the big BMW, and I had to let the gal go. She wanted a different thing, you know, she wanted the material life and an even bigger house and status and for us to join that club where everyone looked alike and wore the same polo shirt, which is weird, but. And so I was like, but I will say this. While I was terrified to get out, once I was out, I would never. I never would get back in the zoo or the prison after that. And my consciousness used to tell me, just take six months off. You can go back. And then the irony is, you couldn't pay me anything to go back because I got offers to go back. And I was out. I was free. And then I had to wind things down. I had to sell the house, and I went to Costa Rica for a few months, and I lived in a bag. And then when I came back, the house felt like this huge burden with a pile of mail and bills and. Cost me more to heat the damn thing when I was gone than to live in Costa Rica for a month. So I started shedding. So there I am, Mr. Extreme again. I get rid of pretty much everything, and I'm just happy and roaming and traveling. I took my mom to Ireland. I went to Europe. I was roaming around. And I had the idea for what matters most in a moment of just clarity. And I saw it as a TV show, and suddenly I had all these people to want to back it. Now, Gore, who I knew, said, I'll be on. And then Maya Angelou, and she said, sure, I'll do it. Robert Plant. I'm talking about an odd collection of folks that doesn't. But I saw, like, the finish, like, the top Of Everest. And I almost got there. Luckily I didn't, because it would have been what matters most of Paul's ego would have been a horrible thing. There it is. Look how smart Paul is. Yeah, but. So luckily that got clipped. But in it, I met him. I have a wonderful woman, and that started that journey. And that's when the hitchhiking came. And that was a book Psychically, she said to me while I was just inches from my show, I think you're going to write a book first. Which was a horrible prophecy because I thought I was inches away. So I went in that way. And then. So I had to give up everything I thought I was. The identity, the cool guy, the big house, the travel, the model s girlfriend who didn't work but was a great chef. And I gave it all back because it wasn't mine anyway. Even the big house. I kept waiting for the grownups to show up and say, there's that fraud who never worked. What are you doing like a squatter? I'm pretending to be a guy here. Oh, all right. The gig's up. I knew you'd find me.
- [64:02]
B
So then I have to ask something.
- [64:04]
C
That maybe give us that jacket.
- [64:06]
B
And I. I have to be. I have to be careful with this one because it's.
- [64:08]
C
No, you can ask me anything.
- [64:09]
B
Awkward. Do you. Do you feel that this journey that you are now on, which I recognize as being valuable, could just be a reflex to Imposter syndrome?
- [64:23]
C
Yeah. What a great question. Well, I am an imposter. We all are. I'm not Paul. There's no Paul. Paul's a made up thing. Thanks for the name. My mom and dad and somebody gave me a number as your Social Security number. And then there's a story about it. Guy wrote books or was music. The key is to change the imposter to the avatar.
- [64:47]
B
That's good.
- [64:48]
C
That's the shift. See, your great questions have made me say things I never said before. So when that happens, there it is. So what happened was the whole. We all learned. God, the biggest famous people I know, some of them are super imposter syndrome because they're a mortal life form that's going to die. A scrounging life form that happened to have some success in a moment here, whatever that is. And then. Yeah, but the kids are addicted to drugs and, you know, there's none of that. So the. What you do is you shift. Like, okay, of course everyone has imposter syndrome because they're not who they think they are. So then you become the Avatar. So the. Whatever this word is, that ineffable that I am is using this multi dimensional form to have this conversation with you and eat sushi and ride a bike and swim in an ocean and, you know, feel things.
- [65:41]
A
Yeah.
- [65:41]
C
Oh, it's hot out. Or my head hurts or knee is sore or that's beautiful. Or that's barbaric. It's a multi sensory, you know, phenomenon here. It's like this miraculous energy suit that's multi dimensional. It feels all this cool stuff and then sends it back to the home office. The source.
- [66:04]
B
That's good. Yeah, yeah. So you speak about loving who or what is in front of you in the moment. That's a beautiful line, but also very brutal standard. What gets in the way of it?
- [66:17]
C
Being around people. That's a joke. I couldn't. God, we should do that one in Vegas, where you live. That's the greatest. Our timing on that.
- [66:30]
B
Yeah, that was fantastic.
- [66:31]
C
That was really good. What gets in the way of loving, which is people, basically.
- [66:36]
B
Yeah. They doing.
- [66:36]
C
The only thing greater than my love for humanity was my hatred for people. That was.
- [66:44]
B
You know, it's. I think you're channeling George Burns.
- [66:48]
C
I know. Or George Carlin. That guy I love George Carlin.
- [66:52]
B
Brilliant.
- [66:53]
C
The. The reality is it's very hard to do. Martin Luther King had the great line. He said, oh, I'm so grateful. God said. The master said, he was talking about Jesus, to love your neighbors, not like your neighbors, you know, your enemy. Love your neighbor enemy as yourself. He said, I'm glad he didn't say like so. Which was very clever. I think he. Acceptance comes sometimes begrudgingly, but you can cut the line if you just think, all right, this is. What is. What definition am I going to do with it? Is it a terminal diagnosis if it's not that? You know, if they're out of what you wanted to eat or the restaurant's closed or the insurance went up or got canceled or whatever it is, how important is it really? And is it leading me somewhere? Is the closed door really the invitation to the other, the other one? Am I being asked to walk through the exit? So love doesn't mean there is just this blissful, drugged out acceptance. It's love sometimes is hard and you kind of just go, okay, I'm going to accept this. I have no choice. But let's not make it worse. And let's yield, let's surrender. Let's be like the tree that bends rather than breaks. And also be able to throw a fit as long as you don't hurt anybody. Yeah. God damn. This is so wrong. That's not fair. And then it blows over. Doesn't internalize and turn to disease. And then. Or maybe just take a hot shower and reboot the day. I've done that recently where it's like, let's start over.
- [68:27]
B
Yeah.
- [68:28]
C
The flow is just today. So something's up. I don't know what is. We're going to go back to bed and meditate. We're going to get up, we're going to take a hot shower and have another latte and let's try. Let's try unplug it and plug it back in. And it worked, you know.
- [68:43]
B
Yeah, that's. That's a beautiful approach.
- [68:46]
C
It's just practical too. You're still a person. Not going to be happy about brutality or horrible things.
- [68:53]
B
No. You could be. Honestly, no.
- [68:56]
C
Unless you're detached and doing. Avoiding, you know, disassociation. That's. That'll show up in other weird.
- [69:03]
B
Yeah, of course. Usually in the form of disease.
- [69:06]
C
Yes.
- [69:07]
B
Yeah. So if you personally could design one experiment for a modern listener, a seven day test to discover what for them matters most, what would it be?
- [69:19]
C
Another good one. I would take seven days. Get a journal, get a nice pen, get quieter, start paying attention. Free. Write. I'm stealing from Julia Cameron, who came on the show here. She had the artist's way. She came on a couple times. Just write stuff, see what comes up. Don't judge. Let's put the critic out in the outhouse and lock the door for seven days. If you think the tree is talking to you or the ocean or you have an idea. You want to do this. Let's leave the critic out. Let's not think in terms of practical terms. Let's just be really creative. Let's go get a big ass piece of white paper, one of those pads and all kinds of colorful markers. Even a whiteboard maybe. You know, let's splurge on our inner child and self and let's just start putting stuff down. Let's put on the greatest music we love, even if it's on repeat. Let's create a nice ambiance. Let's light up, go get a nice candle. That smells good. Boy, sounds like you're spoiling yourself. Yeah. Parents are away, the critics away. Let's. We got the credit card, the car keys. Let's just kind of start this thing. Let's take some hot bath showers. Is there somewhere I really want to go? What would that be like? Is that something I Want to write? What's this? Interesting. Something can come out of nowhere. Wow, what an interesting idea. What would it look like if I follow that? Not for approval or commercial reasons. Well, I've always wanted to thank. Okay, let's just kind of see what that week looks like. Let's just sit for 10 or 15 minutes with our eyes closed. Even if crazy comes up, of course it will. Just pay attention. Let's write about our dreams when we first wake up. Let's maybe in that seven days, eat really well. Let's move every day. Let's get out and walk if we can maybe rent a bike. Let's. Let's get out in the nature a little bit. There's got to be some nature around here somewhere. Let's just create some space. And guess what? Let's invite whatever this thing is in. Really? Does it care? Maybe it's listening. Hey, I'm curious about you. I heard that idiot on the show. What he said. Will you talk? What's up? What do you want of me? Will you speak? Are you there? Talk to me. And whatever comes, you know, and then discerning, if it says go kill your neighbor, don't do that. So. But even if he deserves it. So just listen. Let's do seven days. Let's keep track of this thing. Let's see what it feels like. Let's see what we feel like after seven days. Wow, that was great. Hey, wanna guess what? We make the rules. Wanna do another seven days? Yeah, why not? Let's do it.
- [72:20]
B
And then it becomes a lifestyle. That's fantastic.
- [72:22]
C
There it is. There you go. And we share it where it's safe. I think I'll go tell my hypercritical so and so, this idea. No, don't do that. Protect it. Protect your young self. Protect the inner child from the critics in the blue meanies like in the old submarine. And maybe you need to prune out some people. The dream stealers, the critics, the harsh mar. Don't be a martyr. And then if they're related to you, doesn't mean they have the right to do anything bad to you. Let's start saying, what would boundaries look like, man? It might be a little draconian at first, but they can be malleable. Self care, self love. Learn to love yourself. Not an ego way or narcissistic way. Don't become an influencer, for God's sakes. But the. Just. Let's experiment here. How does that sound? It's all improvised here, as you could tell.
- [73:17]
B
Yeah, no, that's That's a beautiful formula. It's a fantastic prescription. I think that many people would benefit from that because our response to the harshness around us is to be harsh unto ourselves.
- [73:28]
C
Yeah, it's behind internalize it.
- [73:32]
B
Yeah, we really do. I think it's because we didn't know where else to put it. The world is too full.
- [73:36]
C
They're well said. Yeah. And then we take on our critics, voices throughout life. Long after they're gone, we use their software to pound ourselves.
- [73:48]
B
It's an unfortunate dilemma, but it's the kind of pressure that a diamond gets formed under. So there you go. Be grateful for it.
- [73:54]
C
Yeah.
- [73:55]
B
That's fantastic.
- [73:55]
C
The pearl.
- [73:56]
B
Yeah, that's beautiful. Paul, you are an amazing person. I'm sure you've heard that a thousand times. And I want to thank you very, very much for sitting with me today. I know that the listeners who step in and take a moment to hear your words will find tremendous wisdom in what you've presented to us.
- [74:14]
C
Thank you. Beautiful questions, too. You really made me dive into a deeper consciousness.
- [74:19]
B
Oh, I appreciate that. Thank you very much. Before I let you go, any parting words of wisdom? Anything you'd like to leave us with?
- [74:25]
C
Have fun with it all.
- [74:27]
B
That's beautiful.
- [74:28]
C
Have fun with it all. You're playing with house money. The old Vegas phrase. You are playing with house money. You got incarnated here. Why are you here? Play the game. Don't hurt anyone. Play the game lovingly towards self love. Pour first inside. Fill yourself so you're overflowing with love and joy, compassion, humility and kindness. And then it'll just overflow into the everywhere room you go into. You don't need to convince anybody of anything. You don't need to sell anybody on who you are or what it is. Just go like a really bright, beautiful light or a singing bird goes in a room and lights it up and wow, what beautiful. That bird is so. Song was so beautiful. Just is. Be that in your own way because it's your song. Be original. Be the source.
- [75:19]
B
Yeah, that's tremendous. Be original. Be the source. It's fantastic. Thank you again, Paul, and I hope to hear from you again very soon.
- [75:27]
C
Thank you, my brother. Thank you.
- [75:28]
B
Take care. Cheers.
- [75:30]
A
As we come to the close of this conversation, I invite you to sit with what was offered rather than rush to translate it into conclusions. Pa While Samuel Doleman does not present answers meant to be consumed and discarded, what he offers is a posture toward the world, one shaped by listening, by responsibility, and by a willingness to remain awake. Inside complexity. In a time when certainty is often confused with wisdom, this conversation gestures towards something quieter and more demanding. Attention. Humility, the courage to move through many worlds without claiming ownership over any of them. If anything lingered for you here, let it linger. Insight rarely announces itself fully formed. It ripens in silence, in reflection, in how we choose to act once the words have faded. As always, I welcome your thoughts, questions and reflections. You can contact me through my website, Dr. Juan Carlos.com or through crowcubboard.com I read more than you might imagine, and your voices help shape where this work goes next. If you find value in these conversations, please consider leaving a review or sharing the episode with someone who listens carefully. That quiet act of transmission matters more than metrics ever will. Thank you for spending this time with me. For your attention, for your patience, for your willingness to dwell with the unknown rather than to rush past it until next time. This has been the observable unknown.