B (4:05)

So it was that conversation, being pressed with the topic to see whether or not you had faith in what it was that you were practicing. That's fantastic. Was it a single person event or piece of evidence that shifted your perspective? Obviously, this cocktail party was a reason for you to face whatever it is that you really believed. But what sets you on the track of saying, you know, I want to explore astrology, because to me, this is something that might have merit.

C (4:31)

Okay, yeah, I. I guess I haven't shared that with your listeners. So just to give a little background, before I got into astrology, I mean, I was into a lot of different things, but I, starting from 12 years old, I went into the ministry on my mother's birthday, the Christian Fund. Well, I was a. I was a fundamentalist. My. My family was not and are evangelical in the Baptist, Southern Baptist tradition. And I was that for seven years until I was 19. And then at 19, I started questioning, you know, things related to the church. And then it became Christianity. And then finally, by the time I was 21, it was, or 22, it was God. And I had at that point committed to being in a program of African American studies where I was studying race, gender and class. So this is the 90s, early 90s, in the heyday of the postmodern era, where everything was more about race, gender and class. And that's what I really believed in. So I struck up a friendship. I tried to make it a courtship, but it was a friendship with a older woman who was kind enough to take me in as a friend, and she was really into astrology. And one thing for your listeners to know, I'm born on the putative cusp between Scorpio and Sagittarius November 22nd. And I told her if I had a choice between being The Arachnid, the Scorpio, and the centaur, the Sagittarius. I would clearly be a centaur. And she's like, no, I think you're the bug. And I took offense to that. But I was like, ah, who cares? Astrology is BS anyway. I mean, I really. Maybe even heralding back to my evangelical days, I always had a certain aversion to astrology, but matched with the fact that I didn't know what sign I was, I think it complicated matters. Well, I went looking for a book of magic that my mother had taken away from me when I was a kid. I mean, actual magic. I don't mean, like stage magic, of course. And I went looking for it and. But this is before Amazon. So I found it at this. It wasn't a bookstore, but it was like a local shop where this. This brother, a black man, owned. You know, he sold candy. You know, he sold lottery tickets, and he did astrology. And I found the book. Among other books, he was selling more number books or dream books, if anyone's familiar with dream books from. I'll just say the Hood in terms of where you use dreams to match with numbers in order to play them for the lottery. Now, this used to be more for underground, quote, unquote, criminal racket, but once the lottery became legal, you know, those books still stayed in popularity, right? So that's where he. He sold those books. Among the. The magic book that I was looking for, it was the 7, 8, 9, 10 books of Mo, or 7, 8, 9 books of Moses, which we don't have time to go into, but that's what I was looking for. And he said, well, have you ever had your chart read? And I was like, well, no, but, you know, I saw this as an opportunity to shut up this Gemini, this woman I liked, and solve once and for all her dilemma and thinking I was an arachnid, a scorpio. And so we set up the reading and he, you know, for the first 15 minutes, I thought it was just cold reading, you know, more like him spouting off like, well, you know, seems like you're a pretty smart fella, you know. And I said to myself, I didn't say aloud to him. I said, well, you know, I told you I was in grad school. Chances are I'm not an idiot. So I really was not convinced until he started talking about some dynamics between my mother, brother and my father during the reading. And that's when it got my attention. I was like, how do you. How do you know that also, one particular piece he said early on is like, well, you're a Scorpio. Which already pissed me off. So I was like, oh. I was like, all right. And he showed me, you know, I'm 29 degrees, 45 minutes of my son into the sign of Scorpio. I don't have any planets in Sagittarius. So, yeah, I. It started me flowing. There's more to the story afterward. But I started. I was curious, like, how he was able to SCRY and discern what was happening with my. My family, because I hadn't told that to anyone. In fact, I had only learned of the strife between, you know, my mother, father, and brother two months before. So this was in 1991. And I was. I was baffled. I thought it was some kind of trick. So I set myself flowing and trying to uncover what was his trick.

B (9:46)

Did that moment feel like a gradual softening or a sudden rupture to your worldview?

C (9:51)

It was. That's an interesting way to put it. There is no softening in my world. It was a rupture. If we were to define it, it would be more like a rupture that ultimately became a bigger fissure to the point become a Grand Canyon.

B (10:14)

So looking back now, do you think that transformation says more about astrology or about you?

C (10:20)

Both. I think it's more about interacting with Spirit. Because what he did has not been matched by any astrologer I've seen since, which is not any slight to any of the astrologers I've seen or even to myself. It really was a moment where I felt like Spirit was like, we're not going to get this boy any other way unless we knock his socks off.

B (10:50)

Right.

C (10:50)

And so I had to get my socks knocked off.

B (10:53)

Okay, so when you speak. Go ahead.

C (10:56)

Yeah, go on. Yeah, that's what happened.

B (10:59)

So when you're discussing this gentleman, may I ask, did you maintain that association, that friendship, and did you learn anything additional from him that led you down a particular path in astrology?

C (11:09)

No. I did see him at least once or twice thereafter, but no. And I've tried to reach out to him maybe some 10 years or maybe even 20 years afterward. I mean, there's still some remnants of his shop in North Philly where he was. And I did leave a message, but I never heard back from him.

B (11:36)

Have you, in your studies and in your experiences, learned what made his particular reading of you so uniquely accurate at as contrasted against the readings you've received from other astrologers?

C (11:50)

Well, I think one of the Things astrologers like to think is that the chart speaks for itself. I do not think any chart speaks for itself. I do not think as much as astrologers would like to think of their art as a science, I do not think it is a science. What I do think it is a point of communion between the mysterious, the numinous through symbol that we come to understand and connect. And so I think that becomes the moment. This is actually related to a book called the Moment of Astrology by Jeffrey Cornelius. I think it becomes a moment of astrology where you connect with a spirit some might call your daemon, your guiding spirit. And that was one way in which my guiding spirit sought to communion, to commune with me.

B (12:49)

So if I'm understanding you correctly, the special nature of that moment of astrology is more an intuitive flash or perhaps the guidance of someone's creative impulse more than it is science that would be based on calculations or metrics.

C (13:10)

Metrics, yeah. The science is in the calculations and the metrics. But the power of interpretation is intuitive and creative, as you said.

B (13:21)

That's fantastic. Thank you. When you speak about making astrology practical, what is the most personal, concrete way astrology has altered a major decision in your own life.

C (13:36)

Besides becoming an astrologer? Yeah, beyond that, because I think that was one particular manifestation of it and that was a concrete decision. It almost felt inevitable. Another one is moving out here to Santa Fe. Because I first was exposed to Santa Fe by attending a week long symposium here and then using the tools, a tool called astrolocality or astrocartography, I saw that my sun and my Neptune, which are conjoined natally, would do well here. It's on what we call the midheaven. And so there is a way in which it would help me grow spiritually and also in terms of opening me up, maybe more so related to the softening that you were talking about. Because I definitely think there has been a softening away from the hard shell life of living on the east coast, specifically in Philly and Newark and New York, Brooklyn, specifically.

B (14:46)

Fantastic. So that's an example where astrologer guided a real life decision. How since that moment have you measured its impact, the impact it's had on your life, Whether or not the calculation that was done has led to substantive results in moving to Santa Fe?

C (15:04)

Well, definitely I don't feel as hard as I, I did when I moved here. And what that means qualitatively is experiencing more grace with people, a lot more grace with myself, not thinking that anger has to be a Default or response always, that you can cultivate more. Curiosity and vulnerability is not a four lettered word.

B (15:33)

It's fantastic and very, very true. Did that decision, the decision to move in the time that you made it, defy the logic of what you should have been doing? Did it say, well, this isn't really the best idea, but it's something that I feel moved to do despite maybe financial circumstances, social circumstances, familial circumstances.

C (15:55)

Can I just say to your listeners that this guy asks amazing questions. I just want to just applaud you for your questions.

A (16:03)

I love them.

B (16:04)

I appreciate that. Thank you very much.

C (16:09)

Yes, in some way it did, because I moved to a place. You know, I mentioned earlier that I have a degree, I have two degrees in African American studies. I had centered my life pretty much around black people my whole adult life, you know, whether from I went undergrad to Syracuse University and then grad in Philadelphia. And you know, Philadelphia isn't described usually as a chocolate city, but it has a very strong and robust and historical black population. And then to move to Brooklyn, which also has that same kind of history, especially in a neighborhood I lived in, Bed Stuy, that also produced a lot of notable black artists and popular folks to move to Santa Fe, where I pretty much can count the number of black people I might see in a week. On one hand, it was different. And I knew that before I got here, I knew I would be dealing with a whole different set of people than I had dealt with before, meaning more indigenous people, more people who were of direct Spanish descent. I mean, literally tracing their heritage from the conquistadors who subdued and oppressed the indigenous folk here and who are still very proud of that. So it came to be a whole different encounter, a set of encounters than I had known before. And like I said, much of that I didn't know. I thought there were more. There would be more cross fertilization than there actually is here, but there isn't. And there's a little more isolation here and insulation in Santa Fe particularly. But we could say broadly in New Mexico. I don't know if you've experienced that out west yourself, but there's a lot more insulation than I was used to in the East Coast. And what I mean by the insulation, it's even in the architecture, it's more this ranch design or even hacienda where you may have like, you know, there's gates or fences or there are, you know, sectioned off housing, you know, part of the housing, and then you go into a courtyard and then you go to toward a main house, and this is many houses. I'm not even talking about affluent ones. And so there aren't people like sitting on the stoop or out in front of their houses, you know, taking in the night or whatever. It's just more. Even in that design, it's much more insular, people keeping to themselves.

B (19:11)

So this move, monumental as it obviously has been, I would imagine has taught you many lessons. What most of all do you think it's taught you about trusting the symbolic over the rationale?

C (19:25)

Well, I think some measure of the symbolic helps as. I mean, it's always a question when we're talking about spiritual life, of what leads you and not necessarily all that you leave behind, but what. What is in the lead and what follows suit. So I would think of it more as allowing the symbolic to lead the rational. And I don't think this move has just brought that to the focus. I think my whole life and journey with astrology has been that, you know, learning to trust more the symbolic aspects of it. And I think we live probably more with the symbolic in our lives and cultural references then we might even be willing to admit to ourselves. But we, we reify things. So, for instance, I spent a good measure of my adult life studying race. Race is symbolic. It is. It has a literal correlate related to skin color and other physiological, physical, physiognomy issues, but that itself doesn't constitute as race. Race is more a construct, a social construct. And so another way of talking about social construct is along the same analog as symbolism, but we still take it as real.

B (20:58)

Do you draw a lot of these parallels between obviously race studies and astrology and the kind of taxonomy, gender they apply?

C (21:04)

Gender, yeah. Yeah. What I once reified is completely true. Race, gender, and class, I kind of see having nuances. Now I think by virtue of living this symbolic life that, yeah, we, we. We sometimes even trap ourselves into a reification and other times we can liberate ourselves into something that's broader, but it's something that has become literal. And when I say this, it's not to say, to wholly dismiss it. I mean, you know, someone only has to have an encounter from a, with a racist to be reminded that some people live with it as very real, especially someone who has some measure of authority. But it, it's still on a symbolic level. And this also is to remind folks, even in terms of the work we do or work that happens with astrology, you know, there are people who lock themselves into particular signs, you know, like I'm an Aries, and Aries don't do this or we do this or. And not knowing the whole gamut of astrology, they. They miss on all the different dimensions and nuances of themselves.

B (22:24)

That's a fantastic insight because they're following a narrative they're misinformed about.

C (22:30)

Partly, I mean, partly astrologers are to blame for it. Meaning that we are the ones who introduced the idea of sun signs is kind of the, the key focal point. And a lot of people don't know that they have a whole chart that symbolizes and is celestial commentary on who they are. So they, they lapse into a narrative that's incomplete.

B (22:59)

That's what's damaging. May I ask, have you ever had a reading of your own chart, obviously by another astrologer that frightened or unsettled you? And how did you reconcile that as both a believer and a professional?

C (23:12)

Frighten me, I don't think. I think it's interesting. I don't think I've experienced that from an astrologer. I think in fact, more so I may have come in with some concerns. I wouldn't call them particularly fears. Like I was once concerned about my brother passing away sooner because he wasn't doing too well. And I went to an astrologer and she, she said that he wouldn't pass at that particular time. And he didn't. He did pass later, but at that time I think it was maybe six or seven years before he actually passed or so she was. She was on. She was right. I have encountered psychics who gave a reading or said something. I won't say that frightened me, but concerned me, but related to my work as a professional and also as an intuitive. Which you picked up during a session. Because one thing I haven't talked about is I did have a brief life as an intuitive, more so before I became an astrologer, even though I really went more into the holy. The rationale. But during this reading, when she, she actually predicted that, you know, my cats were in some immediate danger and I had two cats at the time, and when she said that, I checked within and then I also knew my astrology and my transits for the time, and I was like, oh, that's not true. But I didn't say that aloud, I just listened and it wasn't true. It wasn't true for that particular time period. So, you know, this is kind of a. A moment I hope for listeners to reflect both within and whatever tools they know without, on the veracity of something. Because, just because Speaking of authority and those with authority related to, you know, what we could say, authority over symbols. You know, ultimately you have to come to see yourself as, you know, the authority. Not necessarily always the first level of authority, but the final aspect of authority, how does it check within your own guides, your own spirit, your own knowledge?

B (25:44)

So this is a really interesting dichotomy between obviously what an intuitive told you and what your chart told you. Did that. That.

C (25:51)

My own intuition.

B (25:52)

Your own intuition, did that contrast or that comparison permanently shift your relationship to fate and free will, or were you already set in your opinion?

C (26:01)

I was not set in my opinion. I have become more set in my opinion. But no, it didn't. It more so confirms something I say, even to my students. I am no longer skeptical of astrology. I'm more skeptical of astrologers, including myself. Which is not to say that I don't listen to them. I do listen to them, but you listen to them with an ear toward discernment. You know, on evaluating something is true. And I, I extend that to every psychic I encounter. Does it resonate? Do you have some measure of internal confirmation or external confirmation, you know, in terms of what, what seems to be true and how is it true? Now, the question of fate and free will. This can become a longer conversation which we may not get into. I'm more inclined to think what we talk about is free will, is an inability to locate all the dimensions of fate that, that push. Push us forward. So we think we're just creatures of free will, often not realizing that there are levels of fate anchored from our genetics to what we ate last Tuesday in terms of our gut biome, to, you know, some measure of our cognitive development. All these different ways we can talk about the strata of who we are. And I think astrology reflects that in the symbols of the planets and the movements to the signs.

B (27:46)

Touching on this subject of not trusting astrologers, but trusting astrology, many astrologers struggle with balancing empathy and honesty. Can you tell me about a time you had to deliver a reading that you knew would hurt someone but still felt it was necessary?

C (28:07)

1. I think honesty can be ultimately empathetic. It's more on how you deliver it. And I think, you know, we. The. The phrase brutal honesty does not recognize that honesty also can be kind. And we're, you know, true to form as the Scorpio, I, I swung the pendulum the other way. Related to your question, we're. I became much more honest than empathetic. And one particular example that stands out is, and I Went through this period of radical honesty in almost every dimension of my life, which I wouldn't necessarily encourage because I think radical honesty, if not tempered with kindness, or as you might put it, empathy, can become something else. So this one particular case with this one client, during the session, I decided to share with her that I felt that she was a psychic vampire because she talked about, you know, issues that she was having with friends. And I said it to her, and she was quiet and listened to, and she seemed to have gotten a lot out of the session. But maybe a week later, she wrote me and she said, I thought it was very unkind of you to kind of say that to me on my birthday, or I think it was near her birthday, actually. But she said, on my birthday, and I'm, you know, I was really upset about it. And that's pretty much all she said. I wrote her back and said, I. I'm sorry that that upset you. And that wasn't my, you know, necessarily my intention. I just wanted to relate to you. Do you want a refund? And she wrote back and she said, yes, I was very upset about it, and blah, blah, blah. But she didn't ask whether. She didn't. She didn't confirm whether she wanted a refund. She just went on about it. And so I wrote back, let's add, I understand that this is very comfortable for you and that I'm glad you've shared this with me. Do you want a refund? You know, going on. And eventually she did say, like, yes, I'll take the refund. But two things happened from that exchange for me. One was the confirmation, like, no, I was right. But two, I did realize that what I did was cause harm. And it also kind of brought home something I almost say as an axiom, you know, it is better to be caring and to express love in a consultation than it is to be right. And astrologers, particularly, I find, and particularly, I'll say this often male astrologers love the idea of being right. And so related to your question, I think it becomes important to deliver honesty with empathy rather than thinking that it's just a simple dichotomy. And with that particular client, I didn't. But I learned a lesson that I have since moved forward with. So in general, I've been told, even as part of my consultations, that I'm very direct, but I haven't gotten that. I'm unkind.

B (31:57)

And you are honestly one of the kindest people I know. What I would ask is, did you learn from this that truth, when delivered compassionately, always lands eventually with clients, since that specific client you mentioned.

C (32:12)

Yes. And just in general, like I told you, I went into this radical practice of honesty with almost everybody. And what I learned is that it puts people's defenses up more so than and their justifications rather than breaking through. What I have learned that works better is using curiosity and asking questions so that people can come more to their own solutions and critiques and understandings. So I might look at their Saturn moon just as an example square and say, ask them, what's your relationship to vulnerability? Would you say, you're a very vulnerable person? Rather than saying, you're pretty defensive, aren't you? That doesn't help anyone. That will put them on the defensive. But if you ask, like more the positive virtue and value in their relationship to it, then they can evaluate that for themselves and probably will continue to do so after the session.

B (33:29)

I want to circle back to something you mentioned about how, in your experience, particularly male astrologers have a desire to prove their correctness or their accuracy. Tell me the gender distinction and why that's made.

C (33:48)

I just, I found it true that men will often go out of their way to talk about their rightness, especially in public spheres. There was one particular astrologer. A good number of astrologers got the 2016 prediction wrong. Many of them went with more of their political bias and predicted Hillary. And this astrologer spent pretty much four years lambasting other astrologers. He is a male astrologer lambast, asking other astrologers for getting it wrong, even though he ended up getting it wrong in 2020. And what was fascinating was he kept to his justification. He also went with the narrative that it was stolen. And as recent as 2022, he said that Trump would be reinstalled as president or would be installed as president in August. And, you know, I track these things because, you know, I'm. I don't know, I get particular that way. And he tracked, he said that, you know, that Trump would be installed even though there's no precedent, there's no constitutional precedent for something like that happening. And we know it didn't happen at all. So what I've observed is that I've seen this more from male astrologers. Now you may say, well, why? Well, I think there's a general divide between the genders and some dimension of the sexes that's happening where many men are more inclined to embrace the rational a certain way and to embrace more the sense of their rectitude than their sense of emotional truth. A friend of mine once said, many people want to be right then they want to be loved. And I think we're at a moment right now where many men want to be right rather than know how to accept and give love. And I've seen that with a number of men. In fact, there's another astrologer I know who I once called a friend who predicted for eight years that there would be another economic downturn during the Obama presidency. And so he would almost say it every year, and it never happened, even during those eight years. And I questioned him about it in 2016 as we were going toward another presidency. And I said, well, let's say for the sake of argument, you have been right. And all those people who didn't listen to you or didn't have the wherewithal to kind of shore up in terms of their jobs or lost everything in terms of the markets or lost everything in terms of their savings and other things, what would you say to them, you know, as a measure of comfort for dealing with what. What happened, if you have been right? And he said they should have listened to me and that at that moment I decided, and I told him that. That we are no longer friends, that you don't need to ever talk to me again. Because it showed me that he wasn't really. He was committed more to his rectitude with astrology than the rectitude of care in his astrology, which I think is at the heart of our work, Especially if you're a consulting astrologer. And even if you're not, you're more mundane astrologer, I would say, thinking more about what's happening in the world. That's what mundane means. It would be still with a measure of care for how people might respond or be affected by what you're sharing.

B (38:01)

That's.

C (38:02)

And I just find that I. I find that more true with men, or lack of that than I find with women. Doesn't mean. I'm not saying that there are no women like this and there are no men who do it with some measure of care. I. I know there are, but I just find this as a trend.

B (38:18)

Yeah, that's fantastic to recognize a distinction like that. I think it could be perhaps a guiding light for some people seeking an astrologer. Astrology often carries people through difficult transitions. What is the most profound transformation you've witnessed in a client who applied your guidance?

C (38:40)

I would say being able to liberate themselves from a bad marriage into more a sense of Career and trajectory that I don't think they had ever envisioned. I also see where people go into not the opposite direction, but a different sensibility where they settle into their lives. Like, I'm thinking of one particular client who came to me at one particular crisis moment where they were thinking at the time of. Of wanting to have children, but being with a partner, with a woman who did not want to have children and have been with her for, at that point, maybe 20 years, and they were in their 40s. It was the Neptune Square where you deal with bubbles bursting, you know, your own illusions. And they were like, well, you know, is it at this point, maybe I should think about leaving my wife and maybe finding someone else with whom I could have children. And I'm not of the mindset of trying to tell people what to do with astrology or using astrology as. Like, this is what the stars say. Because I think that's BS using the interrogative, asking more questions. I was more of the mindset to say to him, you're in this particular moment where you're dealing with, you know, the. The busting open of particular dreams and visions, but you have to be careful that you're not creating another illusion to follow. And one thing to keep in mind is that, yes, you could leave your wife and seek another person, but there's no confirmation that you have or will have that you'll find someone who not only you're fully compatible, but with whom you can have children or will have children. So you could pursue that. But do you feel also that you have. What you have with your wife is a value? I mean, you're the only person who can answer that. I can't answer that for you. And I. I wouldn't try. And so he thought about it, and he decided that he and his wife had already been adopting fur babies. And he settled more into the life and recognition that, you know, it was better to have fur babies with her than to kind of venture out into the unknown on a. On a. What could be a pipe dream to have children with someone maybe that, you know, could be or could not have been compatible with him. And so it became a deeper journey into his life. And I think that's beautiful. And I've seen that with other clients. You know, sometimes it does come with radical change for folks. And then for other folks, it's like to accept your destiny, your fate.

B (41:46)

So that being said, if I opened your birth chart right now, what single placement or aspect would you say best explains your way of moving through the.

C (41:54)

World, my son in the ninth house. So I have lived in ninth house my whole life. Meaning the ninth house relates to the experience of broadening our horizons, whether we're doing that through religion, through publishing, through higher ed, through religion. I think I mentioned that philosophy and. Or astrology. I mean, the ninth house is historically and traditionally the house of astrology. So I have spent, as I mentioned, I was a preacher. But what I didn't mention, I. When I went to college, I also especially grad, I became a professor. And for a time after I left college, Temple University, I also taught at a community college. And then I worked for a publisher. So that's also ninth house. And then I became an astrologer, which is ninth house. So living the life of pursuing, some would say truth, but I would say more philosophy, understanding, or seeking to understand the broader spectrum, our broader horizons. And also I love to travel. So I've traveled broadly. I've spent three months in India, maybe total of four months. So when I travel, it is more to experience a place, more than just like, oh, let's see the sights. So that's also my ninth house life. So I would say I live a very ninth house life. Oh, and one other other thing is that the ruler of my ascendant Pisces is Jupiter in Virgo. So if I had to cheat here and give another placement, it would be my Jupiter and Virgo. I'm always asking why and how is that true? Or if that's true. It's the skeptic.

B (43:52)

So this is something that obviously would manifest in altering possible daily choices. Has this ever been something you viewed as both a blessing and a burden?

C (44:06)

Yes, I would say it is a blessing in the sense that it definitely, I believe, has made me a better teacher because my pursuit of understanding how something is true or why something is true as related to astrology or anything, helps me explain things to people and keeps things practical. Where it is a challenge, a burden is that I am not a man of faith. I'm not inclined toward faith or belief readily. So when people talk about accepting things on faith, it is difficult for me.

B (44:58)

That's interesting. That being said, if you could rewrite any part of your chart, what would it be and why would you?

C (45:07)

Well, I don't know if I would, because I wouldn't be who I am if I didn't go through what I have gone through. So, you know, I believe more in a. More Fatih, you know, love your fate, you know, embracing it as it is. But I mean, if we're Going with hypotheticals. If I had to change, you know, some element of my chart, and I have somewhat through astral locality. Right. By relocating, that just changes more your experience of a place or what comes out of you in a certain place. But yeah, in my relocated chart, my moon ends up in the seventh house rather than in the sixth house. In the sixth house I can get too caught up in my routines in my day to day and schedules and more so preoccupation sometimes related to either health concerns or the mundane. The seventh house gives more space related to other things, other people relationship. So I would put my moon in the seventh house if I could, you know, either in Virgo or out of Leo. Even though I think the moon in Leo has been a blessing.

B (46:23)

Hmm, that's interesting. Astrology requires pattern recognition, but also deep intuition. Do you recall a reading where you followed intuition over the rules of astrology and it revealed something extraordinary?

C (46:39)

Yes, I think that happens quite frequently. Just to put it in context, I mean, I don't know if it goes against or breaks rules, but it supplements rules. It becomes a way in which I can better understand what is happening through the lens of intuition rather than just kind of going with kind of what the symbols generally mean or constitute. So I can get a different sense of that in terms of that experience. But one particular reading that stands out is. So there's a form of astrology called horary. And horary astrology is where you do a chart for a particular question, like where's my watch? Or is this person going to be a longtime partner? So it's different from natal astrology where you're doing the chart for a particular moment in time that's loaded with some significance, either because something has happened or you have a particular question, or when the astrologer understands the question. In this particular example, I had a client, longtime client, who was having a regular session with me in Natalie and progressed transit reading. And then at the end of the session she delivers the bomb, which is that her daughter had been arrested and her daughter had been arrested with the goods on her person. So she was doing fraudulent activity with credit cards. And when she was arrested, they were in a purse in her lap along with her boyfriend. So my initial reaction was like, oh, she's screwed. I didn't, I didn't say that aloud of course, but I was like, oh, that, that seems like a slam, you know, slam dunk case. Well, I did the horary and the horror said exactly the opposite. The, the horror seemed to indicate that with A good lawyer. She actually had a very reasonable chance of getting off. And I said this to the mom and, and actually in real time, I had a horary teacher because I was still new to horary at the time. I called him while she was there to get confirmation because I couldn't believe, like, am I seeing this right? And he looked at it and he agreed with me. And sure enough, she got off and she's living her life. So I don't know if it was about breaking the rules, but it was using intuition or even counterintuitive notions of, or counter instinctual notions to really see a truth that I wouldn't have readily seen just by, you know, her declaration.

B (49:51)

So presuming that the client had her own ideas about how her daughter was going to end up, how did she respond when you gave her what in every likelihood was an unexpected message?

C (50:03)

It gave her hope, but I think it gave her. What I think she needed more than hope was that there's a plan of action, that there's a way forward, you know, to tell her to invest in a real. A good lawyer rather than trusting the state or, or even kind of, you know, there could have been even this impulse, as much as she. She loves her daughter, you know, to punish her daughter, you know, like, oh, well, I told you not to go with that guy, and you did. Anyway, she could have just succumbed to that, but she didn't. And she realized that this was a call to action.

B (50:50)

So in this vignette, specifically, we don't think of it as breaking the rules. How would you frame what occurred? What do you believe intuitively or even technically you did?

C (51:01)

I think it becomes. Yeah, I think what I did was I was able to surpass my own bias in order to look closely using the rules of horary astrology, which is different than natal astrology, in order to assess what the cosmos was saying. This is why I say we're in dialogue with something larger than ourselves when we're engaging astrology. The symbols become more the work. I mean, one of the things I tell people as a distinction between how we could talk about quote, unquote, psychism and astrology, is that a quote unquote intuitive or psychic has to learn or does learn the cascade of their own symbology, which often can be unique to them, you know, in terms of how they may see things and what they come to represent. There is a cultural narrative that has been passed along through astrology on the symbolic reference that are used in astrology. But the astrologer must surpass just even those symbolic reference in order to kind of get to something that's much more intimate and even unique to them in that symbology. So that becomes important. That may be a way in which one breaks the rules. So, for instance, many of my students are very fond of referencing Pluto as a planet of transformation. I immediately challenge that. I'm like, well, when you say that, are you talking about someone becoming a bug? I mean, what do you mean by transformation? Is this going to be like Kafka's Metamorphosis? And I'm. I'm. I'm being jocular and poking, but really kind of pushing them, like, get beyond the hackneyed phrase transformation and say something that is meaningful first to you and then potentially more meaningful to the client. You could say that there is some kind of catalytic crisis that they may endure that or the chrysalis of a crisis that precipitates what becomes a transformation. Then you have to go deeper and say, what do you think might be the nature of this transformation? You know, will they soften? Will they harden? In this particular case, if I were to go with that analogy in this, it would be more so with this horary case. It was seeing within the symbols that there. There was some. Well, basically, the key to this was that the prosecutor and the judge weren't really after her. They were after her boyfriend. And so they saw her as more victimized by her boyfriend, which was actually true. Victimized by her boyfriend. And that if she were willing to make a deal, then that would lead to her. Lead to her, you know, freedom. Now, I know there may be some listeners going, like, sam, did you tell her to snitch? And. And the truth is, I didn't tell her to do anything other than tell her mom to get a good lawyer. But I think she did the right thing in snitching, because I don't think the boyfriend demonstrated any real care for her. And there's no honor in, you know, holding water for someone who didn't care enough about your safety and security, you know, in. In the transaction.

B (54:48)

That's interesting. And, you know, I'm reflecting now on some really important points you've brought up about race and gender studies that you've applied to different aspects of. Maybe your. Your discussion about symbols, your discussion about archetypes. You also say that you're not a person of faith, but have you recognized moments when the symbols or archetypes in astrology did take on a deeply numinous or sp. Spiritual or mystical quality for you? Beyond the technical analysis you have to display to others.

C (55:18)

Absolutely. I mean, and that's where I, I have them live as numinous and encountering the mysterious. I think it is a pathway to faith. And I would say I'm on a path toward faith, not that I have been and genuine faith, because I think about this a lot, especially if we're talking about it. You know, from my history as a former minister, real faith is a full encounter with the numinous and, and the full not knowing and what I have found in the spiritual community that I don't know if we fully acknowledge that we always want to rush to give names to things. Well, that's your karma, that's your fate, that's this. And we don't know. And where my faith is and where my Jupiter Virgo surfaces is. It picks up all these things and like. Yeah, well, if we track the history of these ideas, we don't fully know, but what we do know is that there is an encounter with something that is beyond ourselves, that may go and has gone on by many names in which we, we have to kind of, not even kind of, but embrace. And that is a true aspect of faith rather than just belief. I think most people believe. I don't believe in much of anything. I am more conditioned to embrace faith.

B (56:55)

Interesting. Faith as a force rather than as.

C (56:58)

A faith is the substance of things hoped for in the evidence of things not seen. It's kind of drawing my background.

B (57:05)

Yeah, I think that's fantastic. Now, you're known for teaching astrology in highly accessible terms, but do you personally still hold certain advanced techniques or esoteric methods as your personal secret tools?

C (57:21)

Now that's an interesting question. The short answer is no. The longer answer is it, it doesn't come up that way because most clients don't want to know how the sausage is made. Now I think you're asking related to students. No, I, I, I, I will share much of what I know, although there are some things I've yet to teach. Not because I'm trying to keep them esoteric, I just haven't created a class for them. But there's just levels of it that I, I've introduced and there's some things I'm still working out. So for instance, I didn't teach two techniques for a long time, Zodiacal releasing and Fredaria, because I was trying them out and working them out for myself. So there are, there are loads of techniques to learn, but I don't feel comfortable teaching them until I know that they, they work One and then two that I understand them especially enough to teach.

B (58:34)

Is there any touching on this in your upcoming book? And can you tell us a bit about that?

C (58:39)

Sure. So the book that I have written a draft for and then now need to revise most likely during the fall as things quiet down a bit for me because I've been, I've had a busy winter and spring and summer, three seasons, you know, between a new relationship and then also speaking engagements, teaching engagements and other life stuff. Coming back to it, it is a book looking at various general astrological cycles like the Jupiter returns, the Saturn returns, nodal returns and oppositions and Uranus oppositions, the Neptune square that I alluded to with that one client and talking about what are the mandates, the celestial mandates, what particular life tasks might we seek to accomplish at those times? And some practical strategies and stories either from, you know, people's real lives in terms of everyday people's real lives, or even from celebrities. But more so I'm looking to do that, to redo the book related more to everyday life so that people can look at these life marker points and move with more purpose. And not only move with more purpose, but move with more strategy and power. Because I think some measure, you know, power has become this four lettered word for many people. But the truth is as we age and grow more into the society that's made us, I think it is learning how to leverage our power in order to kind of shape not only ourselves, but our society. And that happens on multiple levels. It may just happen on the level of your family, but it could happen on the level of your community or even your nation, independent of people's politics or even your listeners politics or your own. I'm going to mention one particular example. Donald J. Trump surfaced in terms of his successful, his first successful presidential campaign at his sixth Jupiter return. And I thought that was a significant moment. And there were multiple times and I talked myself off that ledge, but it turns out I was wrong. But multiple times I was like, considering his astrology, he's likely to win, which he did. And you know, like, well, is that a good moment for the country, blah, blah, blah. I'm not evaluating on that level. What I am evaluating is that he, he felt a call whether we want to adjudicate that as correct or useful or whatever, to step forward as an elder, to, to be on the, the national level as president. That is something that can happen for most people or many people, not necessarily president, but at some level where you leverage becoming an elder to become instrumental in shaping the society that's made you now there. That can happen at the 5th Jupiter return or Saturn return when they come together, or it can happen at the 6th and the 6th one. You may not have necessarily as much vitality, but you may have experience or other things that you can leverage, which he did, besides also money, in order to kind of step forward. And so it's helping people to realize that this is what's happening and what these celestial machinations and movements come to be. And the tentative title for the book is consider your movement. And the reason why I have that is consider is actually an astrological word. It comes from the Latin con, which is with. And sidar or sidr comes from sidere, which means stars. So the actual word means to think with your stars.

B (63:01)

The brilliant insight. I. I love that. And you said that our listeners would be able to potentially find this book in the fall or perhaps.

C (63:08)

No, no, I'm going to go back to writing it. They may not see it for another year or two, so. Yeah.

B (63:15)

Yeah.

C (63:15)

So I still have to write it again.

B (63:18)

I'm looking forward to it. And I'm also looking forward, if you'd be willing to. Having you on again. I think there's a lot of ground we didn't really have time to cover.

C (63:25)

Yeah, I would love to do that. And I just want to say. Yeah, I mean, it was great to. To meet you and I really respect and highly regard your work. I'll keep sending people your way.

B (63:37)

I appreciate it.

C (63:38)

And you know, my girlfriend listened to your podcast. You know who she is. I'm not gonna get into that, but.

B (63:43)

Right.

C (63:44)

You know, she listened to your podcast and she was like, it's great, you know, so I. I concur.

B (63:49)

Thank you so much. I really appreciate that. And more than simply appreciating the praise, I appreciate the portion of your journey that I've been allowed on. Thank you so much, Sam. It's been very.

C (63:59)

Thank you.

B (64:00)

Absolutely. I do look forward to talking to you again soon. Please take care of yourself. And until next time, I guess we will certainly be looking forward to touching base with your social media and with your website.

C (64:14)

Oh, I should mention that. Yeah. You're gonna. Yeah. My website is unlockastrology.com and on social media, if people want to follow me on Instagram, it's S, as in Sam F, as in Fred Reynolds. So SF Reynolds. That's also on threads and then on Twitter X, it's Unlock Astrology.

B (64:35)

And if anyone wants to reach out to you specifically for possibly having a chart cast. They would go through your website, I would presume?

C (64:43)

Yes. Yeah, they would go to my website.

B (64:44)

That's fantastic. All right, thank you so much again, Sam, and I look forward to talking to you again soon.

C (64:50)

Same. Thank you.

B (64:50)

Bye. Bye.

A (64:53)

In today's episode, Sam shared with us how almost every aspect of his life pointed him towards a future that required almost no guesswork. He was set on a path that had been carved out. The goals were understandably reasonable and something that, whether he looked forward to to it or not, he was more or less willing to fall into. Then one moment, that's all it took, changed everything. One insight, one revelation completely altered his trajectory and ended up placing him exactly where he was supposed to be all along. I can't help but to believe that sometimes enlightenment arrives when we least expect it. And being receptive to the enlightenment as it reveals itself is exactly what allows us to win in every arena, to succeed in realizing precisely the identity we were always meant to have. My deepest thanks to Samuel F. Reynolds for guiding us through the intricacies of astrology and offering a glimpse into the ideas that will one day shape his forthcoming book, a work we will have to wait until after the fall of 2026 to hold in our hands. If today's conversation stirred your curiosity, you can continue exploring sam's world@unlockastrology.com find him on Instagram and threads at SF Reynolds on X at Unlock Astrology, and on Facebook @ebonyskytalker. Until we meet again here on the observable unknown. Keep this the stars are far away, but the truths they point to are often much, much closer than we ever imagined. Remember, what appears unknowable often stands right before us, waiting to be observed through both the lens of science and the wisdom of spirit. Until next time, this is Dr. Juan Carlos Rey of crowscubboard.com inviting you to look deeper into the observable unknown.