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- [00:02]
A
Welcome to the observable unknown, where science meets the unexplained. I'm Dr. Juan Carlos Rey of crowscubboard.com and after two decades of working at the intersection of comparative religious studies, grief counseling, anthropology, quantum mechanics, and consciousness studies, I've discovered that our most profound human experiences often exist in the space between what we can prove and what we can perceive. In this podcast, we'll explore the measurable influences of immeasurable forces, the those hidden factors that shape our reality but often escape our traditional scientific frameworks. From the latest research in consciousness studies to the ancient wisdom that's now finding validation in neuroscience and quantum physics, we're here to bridge the gap between academic rigor and spiritual insight. Whether you're a skeptic, a seeker, or simply curious about the deeper mechanics of human experience, you're in the right place. Together, we'll examine the evidence, challenge our assumptions, and explore what happens when we dare to look beyond the obvious. Today's conversation moves us into a territory both ancient and urgently modern. The disciplined shaping of attention through breath, rhythm and contemplative practice. My guest is Spencer de Lisle, president of the Art of Living foundation in Canada, an executive performance coach and a longtime meditation teacher whose work bridges corporate leadership, athletic performance, and the physiology of resilience. Earlier in his career, Spencer worked within oncology and cardiology research environments. That scientific grounding, paired with decades of contemplative training, has placed him at an unusual intersection. He has spent much of his professional life asking a deceptively simple question. What happens to cognition, perception and moral clarity when the nervous system is trained rather than merely stressed? He has worked with executives, elite athletes and public institutions, exploring how breath regulated attention may alter decision making, emotional endurance, and the capacity to remain psychologically present under pressure. Tonight, we explore the nervous system not as an abstract concept, but as an instrument, one that can be tuned. One that can also become distorted by speed, ambition, or fear. Please join me in welcoming Spencer Delisle. And without further ado, let's join the conversation. Spencer, it's an absolute honor to be sitting with you today. And I would love to know something I been curious about for a while. You began your career in oncology and cardiology research settings. What first persuaded you that contemplative practice could be examined with the same disciplined curiosity as physiology or pharmacology?
- [02:31]
B
Thank you, Dr. Ray, and it's really a pleasure to be in. An honor to be here with you. Well, I think that just by my own nature, I've been a Very curious person. Since I was very young, my earliest memories of, you know, breaking open my toys to see how they work at the chagrin of my parents that it's spent their hard earned money to pay for them. And I think from the beginning I always wanted to know how and why things worked. And so I had that natural tendency of curiosity. And as I moved on in my education, I found that those interests and those desires were, you know, they're really enlivened by science. And so, you know, throughout my education, you know, very interested in, in work in the laboratory as well as my studies. And then when I graduated, you know, doing some really nice work with, with biotin at Mount Allison University in terms of, you know, being able to use that as a label to, to identify cancers and then, and then later on, you know, doing some very interesting research in nut biochemistry, basically studying cholesterol and you know, looking at how, you know, we could, we could lower people's kind of bad cholesterol, so to speak, that LDL in a non pharmaceutical way, so with nutrition instead. So that, that I felt was really was really interesting. And, and I think that to, to answer your question, that same mentality, you know, had me answer asking the bigger questions about life, you know, life. Why am I here? Am, am I just here to toil in the laboratory from early in the morning until late at night or you know, or is there something, you know, and, and go and have a nice time with family and friends and then, you know, have my dinner and, and then do it all over again the next day or is there something more to life? And I, and I think that there, there was a point in my life where, you know, this continually asking this question, you know, I had some kind of hunches and some hypothesises, but, but I wasn't able to really find an answer. And it, and it was an interesting time in my life because it really got me down actually. And being that frustration with not being able to find a deeper answer led me into learning about practices, very ancient practices. I thought that okay, well if I can't find an answer then maybe those ancient civilizations from the past that had wrote about this for so many thousand years, perhaps there could be some wisdom there. And, and so really it started from yeah, I guess more, you could say more of an intellectual approach. And then gradually my journey continued really in, in more of an experiential experiential kind of activities to, to get me closer and closer to the, those, those answers which, which I'm, I keep searching for today. And I have my own ideas, but I would rather than a journey of frustration, it's really become a journey of joy. And discovering that experience of love and peace and joy within me is really beautiful way to live life.
- [06:11]
A
As a short aside, I'd love to hear about the arc of meditations that you've studied, starting from the most basic and probably the beginning of this conversation to where you're at now.
- [06:22]
B
Sure. So I think once again, from very early on, I like spending time on my own. You know, I guess you could say I'm a little bit more of an introvert than an extrovert. And, and I just appreciate being, having time on, on my own. And I think from that point, you know, from, from a young age be observing my own thoughts. I, I grew up in the Christian tradition, so, so being in prayer and you know, kind of listening for an answer to my prayers was another practice, you know, I had done in movement and throughout the day. But also, you know, I guess you could say I didn't call it meditation at that point, but just sitting after a prayer in silence. So, so that that practice, you know, you could say was, was the beginning and then, and then later on I would say in university I read an interesting book called the Tao of Physics.
- [07:18]
A
Fritjof Capra, one of my favorites.
- [07:20]
B
Yes, yes, exactly. So, you know, this, this was a very, you know, interesting flip on, on not only how I thought about physics and chemistry that I was studying and I was reading it as a part of a physical chemistry class I had, but also the way I thought about life and, and, and kind of thinking outside of the box and you know, led into, I guess you could say, some meditation techniques that were, you know, kind of more Buddhist based and reading more about that and, and then practicing as well. But I would say the vast majority of the meditation that I have done is, is with a grouping of meditations called Automatic Self Transcending Meditation. And, and really it ha. It has to do with becoming an observer, becoming a witness to everything that's, that's within you and outside of that is really for me where I've really found, you know, this infinite joy and, and ability to connect with, you know, you could say that unseen aspect of myself. Many people, some may call it the self, some may call it the, the soul. And the way I did it was through the Art of Living foundation has a program, it's called Sahaj, Samadhi meditation. Sahaj means effortless and samadhi is that deepest state of your own self. And through this practice of becoming a witness and a specific mantra that's given, you're able to really, you could say, kind of descend through those different six layers to the seventh layer of your existence, to the self, and really abide in that space. And I would say that is the place where I have the most experience and, and the most results, actually.
- [09:20]
A
That's fantastic. Now, many people approach meditation as relief from distress. You've worked extensively with individuals who are already highly functional. What changes when regulation becomes a performance variable rather than a coping mechanism?
- [09:33]
B
A performance variable rather than coping mechanism. So you're moving, you're moving from a place where someone is feeling burdened and stressed out of a trauma. And you've gotten to a point, a healthy point, where actually you're moving into a state of performance. Is that what you mean by your question?
- [09:56]
A
That's right. Using meditative practices to hone performance standards.
- [10:00]
B
Wonderful. Yeah, yeah. So, so, so that's it. You know, I think now there's a huge body of research, you know, demons, demonstrating the benefits of meditation, you know, not just for someone that's dep or anxious or coming out of trauma. We do a lot of work with veterans that come back from the war and are experiencing post traumatic stress and even moral injury. They can't sleep, they can't eat. You know, it's a horrible existence to have this kind of, you know, unseen, unspoken collateral of the war. And the results are incredible. You know, what we've seen, you know, being, you know, many of those veterans come to us and tell them that they feel like they got their life back, including their spouses. You know, I feel like, you know, you gave me my. My husband back or my wife back, so. So that is really beautiful. But it's a great point because, you know, this is not just for people that are having a tough time. This is also for high performers. And, you know, if we take a similar example of the police, we do these high performance workshops for police. It's called Sky Resilience. It' with our sister organization, the International association for Human Values. And you know, what we've seen is that by, by doing these breathing practices, we're actually able to. To regulate the level of cortisol in the system so that an officer's has, instead of reacting to a situation out of an emotion, they're able to respond instead. And that response time can be just as fast or sometimes even faster, but the result is very different. Rather than having, you know, an emotional meltdown and doing something you regret now the mind is in a much more calm and centered state. Emotionally, the officer is much more grounded. Obviously, that cortisol level has come down with the practice of these daily breathing techniques that we. We teach the officers so that, you know, instead of having a cortisol unmanageable and it's flooded the cerebral cortex, so even the neurons can't even communicate. That's why often in crisis situations, we, we can make, you know, very rash actions. Now at this point, the cortisol level has reduced. There's excellent cerebral connections in the brain, and the officer can make that calm, cool, collected decision in the heat of the moment. And, you know, this is something that's not just useful, you know, in the. On the streets of whatever city you live in, but, you know, or on the battlefield. So to. This is something that, you know, on the battlefields of the boardrooms is also very useful because, yes, you know, oftentimes, you know, I remember working for one of my advisors who was a great researcher, great research mind, but his method of communication was screaming. Not always the most useful and, you know, very high level of intellect and, and brilliant mind. But the emotional regulation was very immature and that was disappointing because it limited the effectiveness he could have. And we see this in the. In the boardroom all the time. We have another sister organization called the Transformational Leadership for Excellence Institute, and it's basically does all our corporate programming. And what we've seen is that, you know, sometimes if you're, if you're in a meeting, you're meeting with your colleagues or your team, someone says something that's triggering for you, your emotion overwhelms you. And once again, you make a rash decision. You make a rash action that could destroy that relationship or make it very difficult or time consuming to mend. So by doing regular. And having your own regular meditation practice, this can kind of put us in the driver's seat. You know, there are a number of neuroscience studies that look at that gap between the stimulus, our thoughts, our emotions, and those. Those emotional hormones and chemicals that rush through the body. And they say it's 60 to 90 seconds that we have. And if, if you're able to kind of, you know, weather the storm, so to speak, then you're able to make that very calm and cool decision with the mind in a settled place. And, and that's the thing, you know, like, where do the best decisions come from? Does it come from a ra Know, Bubbling with rage mind? Well, not really. It comes from a calm, settled, centered mind. And, and really, I would say that is what these meditation techniques bring. And, and what I've seen in my experience with Sahaj Samadhi meditation is that it really gives me an even keel so that no matter if things are going very well, I don't lose my focus. And if things are not going so well, I'm still able to look at the bright side, see things as they are, rather than perhaps that this, these sunglasses of emotions would have me see them so that I can take proper action at the proper time. And effectively, that is the definition of yoga, is skill in action. And Sahaj Samadhi meditation we've seen in the corporate world as well, can really give that.
- [15:36]
A
Do you have a personal triage method for arresting the chemical cascade that typically gets precipitated by an emotional trigger?
- [15:44]
B
Yes, that's a great question. So what can we practically do in the moment? Because the beautiful thing thing is that as the years go by, and I'm sure you could attest to this as well, now that surge of emotions is much less intense than it was, you know, 5, 10, 20 years ago. It's. It's almost like before it was like a line through concrete and then a line through. And then it became a line through water, and then now it's almost like getting towards a line through air. Like the emotions still come, but the intensity is less. And that frequency of that rush of negative emotions is, Is less now. Now what to do when you do have. Are overcome by those emotions, you do have that surge of emotions, that emotional storm, so to speak. Well, the 3Amethod I find is very practical. So those A's are awareness, acceptance, and action. So the first one, awareness. Typically we are not so aware in our lives. I mean, there are some exceptions, but typically we're breathing. We don't know we're bre. We can feel a certain emotion. And because we're so overwhelmed and stressed and we're multi, we're. We're multitasking or you could say shifting our attention. Our energy is low and it becomes difficult to be aware. So even emotion may come up and we're not aware and we just react. So the first step is to just simply become aware that, okay, I'm feeling this emotion. Okay, there's some, for example, there's some anxiety coming up. Perhaps I have to give a big presentation. There's a lot riding on the honest decision and I want to do a good job and I feel some anxiety. So what we know is that the mind and the body work on different laws. If you put some resistance on something. So say I put some resistance on this computer, I can push it away. But in the mind, it runs by a different law. The more you resist in the mind a thought or an emotion, what happens? The more they persist. So, and I mean, that's our first reaction, right? Like, I mean, I think any of your listeners here would be hard pressed to say, oh, you know, if I asked, who likes to feel anxious or fearful? Not so many people, actually. Yeah, exactly. So being able to have the courage to say, okay, you know, an emotion is like a wave in the ocean. Can a wave destroy the ocean? No, no, of course not. So can an emotion destroy me? No, of course not. So by being with this feeling, by allowing myself to feel this and just being present with that emotion, giving it that attention, it will dissipate and disappear. Once we've given it that time and attention, it settles down and it moves on its way. In fact, that is the nature of an emotion. You could say it's energy in motion. And often it's like we're trying to stop the current of the emotion. No, I don't want to feel like that. No, this is not the time. Okay, this may not be the time, but this is the way it is right now. So being able to simply accept the moment as it is, have the courage to be with that emotion, you'll notice. Notice that the emotion will settle down. And then with a calm, clear mind, you can take that rational, decisive, intuitive action. So those would be the. A nice. A nice kind of trio that you can use in those difficult situations, the three A's. So awareness, acceptance and action.
- [19:05]
A
Tremendous. Thank you very much. I certainly appreciate that. And I know the listeners do as well. Breath work is often framed in symbolic or highly spiritual language. If we translate it into neurophysiological terms, which systems are most directly influenced by sustained, rhythmic breathing?
- [19:21]
B
Well, I would just like to keep it simple. And I would say that, you know, meditation has an effect on our entire nervous system, brain, spinal cord, all the nerves throughout the body. And I think the biggest culprit that prevents us from being our best and from, you know, our whole body complex from working the best is stress. And, you know, if you think about it, you know, if we think about just something simple like digestion, our digestive system, you know, they say, you know, our, our. Our second brain is in the gut. We talk about the. The vagus nerve and et cetera, but that simple process of digestion is really an incredible symphony in and of itself, you know, and what do we do? How are we a part of that symphony? Well, first we chew the food, we swallow the food, and then what do we do after that? Well, there's not so much to be done, actually. We, we just let go and we let that inner intelligence of our nervous system, our digestive system, our circulatory system to do the rest. And I mean, now there's so much research demonstrating the, you know, deleterious or the negative effects of stress on the system. And, and I would say that if we're able to reduce or manage, because some stress is good too, right? Like being able, you know, if you have absolutely zero stress in your life, then maybe you're not motivated to do anything and that's not a good position to be in either. But having a, an optimized, you know, level of stress. I remember there was a bel from this study from the early 1900, I believe, and there was this kind of sweet spot of stress where you had enough stress that you were motivated and enthused but not so much that you were overrun or burning out. And I think being able to have a tool, as you were saying, with the breath, it can really be a powerful way to give us more control over our nervous system, system because typically, typically the autonomic nervous system, we don't have control over it, active control anyway. And, and the breath can really change that for us. And instead of it being something very passive, we can take an active role in, in the autonomic nervous system. In one sense, if we look at the parasympathetic nervous system, you know, the, the rest and digest system, so to speak, that, you know, how can we, how can we affect that system? Well, we know that through, for example, Ujjay breath, which is the breathing technique that's used to soothe and calm the system. We can actually get in, tap in to that parasympathetic system and calm the system down and soothe that system and move our whole nervous system into that rest and digest mode to rejuvenate ourselves. And conversely, once I'm rejuvenated, then I'm in the perfect position to actually jump into action. And, and I, and if we, on the, the rejuvenation side for a moment talking about that Ujjay breathing, it, it actually is one of, one of the powerful ways to get in touch with the vagus nerve. And if we're able to get in touch more with the vagus nerve, that can also help to clear the cortisol from the brain and the cerebral cortex as we were talking about earlier, enabling us to make rather than rash decisions from the amygdala to make more reason, reasoned, measured decisions from the cerebral cortex. So on the, on the rested side, if we're able to rest deeply, we automatically are able to spring into action more effectively. And on the sympathetic side, we, we also want to be focused in our life. We want to be inspired. We want to be dynamic. You know, our, our life as active professionals demands it. And, and how do we do that if our energy is low? Well, there are also breathing taps, techniques for that. There's an incredible technique called Bastrika or bellows breath. It's a very powerful technique for activating the sympathetic nervous system. And there's actually interesting research that demonstrates not only does it raise, you know, the level of, you could say your own perception of the energy you have in the system, but it also raises the level, your level of focus as well. So simply through the breath, we can have a very direct, direct impact on both the parasympathetic and the sympathetic system. And it, it enables you really to change your state. So sorry for everybody out there, but we, we revoked your past to be eternally miserable and without energy and overrun. Yeah, sorry about that. You, you, you now have at least, you know, some, some clues and some. A little bit of a taste of, of where you could go and what you could do. And of course, we did teach both of those techniques as some introductory techniques on the, on the Art of Living Part 1 program.
- [24:23]
A
Physiologist Mihaly Csikszentmihalyi, in his study of flow, discussed exactly what you brought up earlier. A requirement of stress. But how would someone entering into CPTSD or PTSD and a meditative practice to manage their condition understand the difference between usable stress and toxic stress?
- [24:42]
B
Well, I think it's a great question because when you're injured and when you're in a, a constant state of hypervigilance, you, everything seems like a threat. So, you know, the, you, you may feel that there's a tiger at the door, but it's just your kids. It's just a bunch of little baby tigers. But, but that for you is, is really disrupting your nervous system tremendously. So, so, so. And so in the beginning, it's, it's so interesting because, you know, a behavior and something that soldiers have honed so well to become vigilant, that it has actively saved their lives and saved the lives of many of their colleagues as well, and enabled them to be highly effective on the battlefield is something that is actually tearing them apart at home. So you know, perhaps before being able to distinguish between these two types of stress, really we need to do, you know, a complete healing of the nervous system and a complete rejuvenation of the nervous system and effectively train the nervous system that it's okay to, to be in, to rest. And, and really, you know, in these workshops that we do or in the research studies that we're doing, we're doing a research study at University of Toronto with Mount Sinai Hospital looking at these tools that we teach to be used on an online format. Um, so we're teaching the Sudarshan Kriya and accompanying techniques like Ujjay Bhastrika, different types of these pranayam or different breathing techniques coupled with guided relaxation and meditation and particularly the sky breath meditation or Sudarshan Kriya as, as an online solution. So there is a situation where, you know, many veterans, because of the hyper vigilance, the moral injury and many other things, things, high levels of anxiety, they don't feel safe outside of their own home. So, or they may be in very rural areas and to come to a course to learn these things, it's just not practical for them. So we wanted to pair the success that we've had with our in person programs and be able to offer them in a remote scenario. And so far it's been really great. Actually we've had some great results. Dr. Abhimanyu Sood at the University of Toronto is leading this study with his colleague colleagues and, and typically what we've seen through from the veterans is that they come to the course on the first day and you know, their head is basically on a swivel. Any little noise even in their own environment, you know, for that study or say it for our in person programs, you know, so much so that I remember one veteran was sharing with us that since the, for the past 10 years since he had retired from the military, he had not had more than, than four hours sleep in a night.
- [27:47]
A
Oh gosh.
- [27:48]
B
So you know, I mean for us I think that you know, four hours sleep would be, you know, we can do it every now and then but for a, like that is the best sleep he had in 10 years. So you can imagine, like how is this person even functioning? It's remarkable, the resilience. So I remember that you know, the first night, day, the day after actually that we did this Sudarshan Kriya sky breath meditation, the rhythmic breathing practice that we teach, he came back and he was kind of tongue in cheek, angry with us. And he says, he said to us, okay, you guys, you guys are in trouble. I almost missed my dentist appointment and it's all your fault. And so he said, okay, how's that? So then he said, last night I slept 10 hours and I almost missed my dentist appointment because of you. So to see this technique in a very short session, session of practice, you know, we have a longer practice that we do in a group and then we have a shorter practice that you, the participants, whether, whether they're CEOs in the business world or whether they're veterans or police or what have you. Athletes, we also work with athletes. The course is structured towards their, their particular situation. We have specific techniques to use in certain situations. But the Sudarshan Kriya Sky Breath Meditation, that foundational technique is the same. And in only a few minutes it just completely transformed this person, you know, to be able to see him, you know, rested and really happy. Actually he told us it was the first time he felt happy since his deployments. So you know, I think, I think that if we're able, through the power of the breath, power of meditation to tap into that, you know, that ability to, to, to, you know, rejuvenate the parasympathetic, activate the sympathetic where necessary, we can get incredible results. And from a basis of rest and well being and self healing from that point, once we've gotten to that point, then we can start to, to decipher between those different levels of stress and those different types of stress and, and once again that awareness, awareness can, can bring so much growth and, and we can start to make much more healthy
- [30:02]
A
choices and the kind of transformation that brings about has to be remarkable. With the pranayama respiratory disciplines that you teach. Have you seen these altering perception itself in patients or primarily emotional tone and reactivity to stress?
- [30:18]
B
That's a great question. Principally I, I have seen principally basically three types of changes. One is in perception, the other is in observation. And the last one is in expression. The founder of the Art of Living, his name is Gurudev Sri Sri Ravi Shankar. He's a yogic and meditation master from India. He started this foundation, the Art of Living Foundation. Now 45 years ago, this is the 45th year of the foundation. And when he shared those three things with me in the beginning, beginning, you know, to look out for changes in perception, observation and expression, I started to see it, to see it more than more perception. You know, I think that the answer is in, is around us. And there are so many solutions around us but the question is, can we see that solution? Are we aware? Do we have an awareness of that solution? Are we able to perceive it in our environment? You know, there's that old exercise where you ask someone to count how many circles there are in the room. You close the, close your eyes and count how many circles there are on the room. I'll give you five seconds. Five, four, three, two, one. Open the eyes. Look at all. Look at your environment. And now close the eyes and tell me how many circles you saw. So, so, so people are thinking about that. And then I ask a second question. Okay, how many squares did you see while their eyes are closed? And typically we, you know, if our focus is on one thing, we're not going to see the breadth of the possibilities that are open to us. And that is one thing that, you know, from the pranayama, from the breathing techniques, from the meditation that's improved is that perception of the world around us because our awareness is higher. And when our awareness is higher, it's almost like those solutions just come to us, you know, so much, so much easier. Why? There could be many reasons, but one might say that a calm, clear mind is a beautiful, nurturing ground for us to be able to see things as they are. You know, rather than, as I was mentioning before, if you have rose colored glasses on and I'm asking you the color of the wall, well, will you trust me that I say the wall is white behind me, or will you trust your own perception? And typically people will trust their own perception. So the idea is to give people these tools so that they can effectively take off these glass glasses of these traumas from the past, these stresses from the past, and enable them with their own experience to see how things how as they are. And in so doing, being able to, you know, effectively take those blinders off and see more of what's available in the physical world, but also in terms of ideas and inspiration and creativity. So perception is one observation, is the other, one observation of ourselves. So typically we're not, we're not aware of our own self, ourselves, as we were discussing before. And when we start to bring an awareness to what we may be thinking, what we may be feeling in particular, there's less of a chance of that state overcoming us. Because when we give attention to those, for example, emotions, we see that they settle down. The racing mind. When we give our mind attention and we be with those thoughts, we don't try to resist them, we don't try to push them away, we just be with them. Then we see the mind settle down. In fact, I, I love poetry and I, I'm a big fan of Rumi. I don't know if you've ever read anything of his.
- [33:48]
A
Very familiar with Rumi's work.
- [33:50]
B
Wonderful. Incredible. There's a, there's a poem that I love. It's one of my favorites. It's called the Guest House. And I would recommend it for, for any of the listeners that are interested in, in learning, you know, how to become more aware of their mind. Mind and how to, how to be able to settle their mind down or be able to settle their emotions down. And I'm paraphrasing here, but he, he effectively says treat those emotions and thoughts as an honored guest. And the, the last thing we want to do with our anger is treated as an honored guest. I mean, we just want to slam the door and sayonara. We don't ever want to see that again. Right. But what he says is no, no, open the door and treat it it as an honored guest. Invite it in for tea and then see how it moves on on its own. And he says it much more beautifully than I said it there. I would recommend reading the poem. It's very beautiful. But it's such a beautiful metaphor for the richness and wealth in being able to observe ourselves and giving ourselves that freedom to do so. Who do you have to put. Perform for? Do you have to be the marionette of our society that you have to be happy, go lucky all the time? Or do you give yourself that permission to feel certain emotions and be a human being? After all, this is some good questions to reflect on. And of course, giving ourselves that freedom can enable us to have a higher level of observation. And the last, last thing I saw, I have seen, I should say, is communication and expression really. So when I am able to see things as they are, the outer world without my, without my glasses of emotions and my past, when I'm able to see myself, self reflection, see myself as I am, then we enter into that state of expression. Some people call it the zone. Other people, you know, call it just freedom. There are many ways of talking about this state where it almost feels like I'm not the doer of these actions. They're just happening. And interestingly enough, if you speak to high performance athletes or high level business people or anyone that's at a very high level in their field, if you're at a high level in your field, many of these athletes and performers. Performers have experienced this state of being in flow or being in the zone. And it's a total moment of pure, in one state relaxation and also a very high level of focus, which is contradictory. Usually we're very focused and stressed, intense or we're very relaxed and at ease and completely unfocused. And I would say one of the other beauties of Sudarshan Kriya, and it's demonstrated even in the studies that we've done around the brain waves of the brain as well as associated with performance, is that it puts you in a state of relaxed alertness. So your nervous system is completely relaxed, but at the same time you're very focused and alert, which effectively allows you to let it happen. There's a great book called the Inner, Inner Game of Tennis and the Authority talks about this, about how being able to be relaxed in, in moments of demand and performance can enable that creative, intuitive, highest level of, of performance that that's possible. And, and that's what I've seen, you know, whether it be, you know, the, the athletes that we've, we've worked with, whether that be the, the CEOs that have, you know, driven their country, their, their company to more and more success and, or whether that just be, you know, a research scientist that's, that's looking for another level of inspiration, creativity in her or his work, the level of expression becomes almost effortless. And, and that is, those are really, I would say the three biggest gifts that I've seen through our programs in whatever domain that we it's been, whether it be in the corporate world or in schools, universities, or on the sports field or the battlefield.
- [38:17]
A
So for the more reductionistic minded individuals listening, talk to me a little bit about the chemistry. I know with nasal breathing and Brimari humming, there's an increase in nitric oxide which of course has a naturally sedative effect. Some of these things regulate vasopressin, cortisol, adrenaline. Obviously we're bringing the vagus nerve into alignment as well. Well, but what are some other chemical attributes that you've recognized having a positive impact on a contemplative practice in the circles you've.
- [38:45]
B
Well, I think there's, there's a lot of different, you know, aspects that are, that are improved with, with these breathing practices. One we touched on is the, the stress hormone which is cortisol. And I mean we have studies that number of studies, we have over a hundred hundred peer reviewed, published studies which demonstrate the benefits of Sudarshan Kriya. But there's one study I know that that demonstrates it's about, it's about a 57% increase or a reduction rather, in the level of cortisol in the system. So when, first of all, when you do this practice regularly, what this practice is doing is that it's actually lowering your baseline level of cortisol. So instead of getting into a difficult situation and your baseline is here, and then all of a sudden you're up here in a very unmanageable place. Well, up, up, up, up, up, up, up. With regular practice, your baseline is maybe here. And then when you jump up, you're in a much more manageable position. Rather than being thrown off balance and being totally overcome by this certain surge in cholesterol in cortisol and not being able, you know, to have that neural connection and communication in the cerebral cortex, you're actually at a point where it's giving you energy and focus to do what. What you need to do. I think another aspect that would be interesting for our discussion would be immunity. It was only a few years ago that we were all locked up in our home and, and, and we were all concerned about, about this global virus. And what we've seen in the research is that it actually increases our immunity. I know in one study, I believe there's a 33% increase in lymphocytes in six weeks from their normal range. So being able to have a tool that is really enhancing your own immunity is very powerful. You know, in, in the times that we're living in, I mean, I think there's a, there's a number of different variables that we could talk about. I know that if we talk about, if we go beyond chemicals and we talk about brain waves, we've seen that there's a dramatic increase in the beta brain waves, which are. Are associated with focus, heightened alertness. And we've also simultaneously noticed that the body is able to be. You could stay in a very happy state, you know, and we have these, these, these happy hormones, you know, this. And, and, and we have these stress hormones. And, and I know that we're able to manage the lactate a lot better and, and even, and even cholesterol. You know, going back to the research that I did in the past, we see reductions in cholesterol with no change in diet. And I know if we come back to the veterans, the interesting thing we did measure levels in the stress hormone cortisol with them. And what we found was is that not only. Or, sorry, not the levels of cortisol, it's actually the level of levels. Oh, no, it was the level of cortisol yeah, it was the level of cortisol that they had after doing these practices right after the course, actually maintained for three, six and 12 months whether those veterans actually did those practices or not. So it showed that this, these breathing practices, I mean obviously we recommend doing them on a daily basis, but whether you do them on a daily basis basis or not, they're actually, you know, they're able to have a very significant effect for the long term just having done it that, those, those two times on the, on the course.
- [42:46]
A
Fantastic. So daily practice isn't required, just recommended.
- [42:50]
B
Yes, I mean obviously we, we would recommend to do the practice daily. That's where you have the best results. But even if you don't, even if you just take the course that one time, Art of Living Part 1 course, or a veterans course course, or the corporate course, those results will stay with you for an extended period of time.
- [43:07]
A
You know, I've got to tell you, I could sit and chat with you on this for many more hours. Hopefully you'll have a chance to come back in the future. But before I let you go today, I'd love to hear what your personal favorite breathing exercise is. For an immediate reduction in stress.
- [43:21]
B
For an immediate reduction in stress, I would say the straw breath is, is a wonderful technique and I can even show it to you now if you're
- [43:29]
A
open to that, of course. Yeah, absolutely, absolutely.
- [43:31]
B
So the straw breath connects us with that parasympathetic system. So the rest and digest and it calms and soothes the system. So particularly if you're feeling frustrated or angry, the straw breath can be a very powerful way to tap into that parasympathetic system. So the way you do it is you can, you can do it standing, you can do it sitting, however you like. You breathe in through the nose with normal breath and then you breathe out through the mouth as if you, if you're breathing out through a straw like
- [43:58]
A
so, with lips pursed. Excellent.
- [44:00]
B
With lips pursed. And the, you breathe out for a much longer period of time and you breathe in for a shorter period of time. So in through the nose, out through the mouth and a very long and extended kind of pursed lips breath until you've breathed all the air out of your lungs and then you can repeat. And after about a few breaths you'll notice the mind calm, the system becomes more stable. And particularly if you're getting triggered by a conversation at work or in your family, it can be a really great technique to settle yourself down and kind of get your mind back, so to speak.
- [44:34]
A
That's an excellent, very pragmatic tip. Do you have any retreats coming up?
- [44:38]
B
Yes, in fact, we have courses going on throughout the country. So if people are interested in taking our retreats or participating in our in our courses, it's just artofliving.org that's in the US or in Canada. And we have beautiful centers as well. In St. Matthew du Parc, Quebec, we have a beautiful 350 acre center. We have an Ayurvedic spa, beautiful meditation hall where we can have about a thousand people meditating together and beautiful natural environment. We have an incredible center in Buddha, North Carolina and the mountains of North Carolina. And then of course we have centers, a beautiful center in Los Angeles, California and many local centers as well as centers internationally in Bangalore, India, in Germany as well. So whether you're taking one at a local center in your town or at one of our national centers centers, we would love to welcome you and share with you some of these deeper dive techniques. And if you'd like to know more about our corporate programs, our general public programs, or any of the programs we do with veterans or in schools, please feel free to contact myself and our team and we'd be happy to teach you some of these techniques. And happy to meet you.
- [46:02]
A
Absolutely. I will include the link in the description for this episode. Tell me, are any of the courses offered remotely for individuals who live too far away from your centers?
- [46:12]
B
Most definitely, yeah. You can take the courses online or in person. If you just go to artofliving.org you'll be able to look up a course near you. For our partner organization for all the institutional programs with the police or with veterans, you can just tap in IAHV.org or IAHV CA for the programs in Canada and for the corporate programs it's mind mapping matters.com or you can type in tlexinstitute.com and you'll be able to get to our corporate programs.
- [46:46]
A
That's excellent. Thank you so much for sitting with me today, Spencer. It's been a real delight and as I said earlier, you are welcome to come back later. I'm sure the benefits from these practices would suit many more listeners than not.
- [46:59]
B
Wonderful. And just before we leave, I'd like to take the moment to invite invite you as well as all your listener listeners to the World Culture Festival. Every five years or so we have a grand celebration where we invite cultures from around the world to share their dance singing, all of their narrative stories and we have a huge celebration. The last one we had in Washington D.C. on the Washington Mall. We had just over a million people attend. We had one of the largest, largest meditations in history there. We did the last one before that in India. We had almost 4 million people come together and Canada has won the bid for 2027 and we'll be celebrating in Toronto and we really hope you'll you'll join us to meditate together and really come together for a stress free, violence free world.
- [47:53]
A
Absolutely. And what a great time for it to be sure.
- [47:56]
B
Most definitely.
- [47:57]
A
Thank you so much, Spencer. Take care of yourself and I'll talk to you soon.
- [47:59]
B
Thank you Dr. Dr. Ray.
- [48:00]
A
Thank you. Cheers. What we have explored today is not simply relaxation. It is the architecture of steadiness. If the nervous system is perpetually driven forward by urgency, insight narrows, empathy contracts, and imagination becomes subordinate to survival. Practices such as breath, regulated attention remind us that clarity is rarely achieved through force. It is cultivated through rhythm. Conversations like this invite us to reconsider performance itself, not as relentless acceleration, but as the capacity to remain internally organized while the world becomes more complex. If today's dialogue has stirred some reflection in you, I would very much like to hear all about it. Please write to me at theobservableunknownmail.com or text me directly at 336-675-5836 and wherever you've listened to this conversation, your thoughtful reviews help this work reach those who are searching for language equal to their experience. If you'd like more information about Spencer's organization and projects, the link to his website is available in this episode's description. Until next time, this has been the observable unknown.