William Love

Summary

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Podcast Summary: The Observable Unknown

Host: Dr. Juan Carlos Rey
Guest: William J. Love
Date: July 27, 2025
Episode Theme:
Where measurable science meets the unexplained, and the transformative intersections of coaching, adoption, identity, and empowerment are explored through lived experience.

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Overview

This episode of The Observable Unknown dives into the interplay of science, spirituality, and personal transformation. Dr. Juan Carlos Rey hosts educator, coach, and motivational speaker William J. Love, whose life journey as an adoptee deeply informs his purposeful work with youth and adults. Together, they chart William’s path from formative challenges—adoption, family mental illness, and grief—through the development of resilience, self-efficacy, and the wisdom of using hardship as a source of strength.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Crucible of Transformation

(02:03–04:06)

• William J. Love’s journey began coaching wrestling at 27: Teaching and mentoring youth showed him his voice could catalyze transformation.
• Key experience: Helped a student with absent parents earn a scholarship and attend college:

  “That was probably the moment where I understood, like, the true impact of the difference you can make as a coach.” (03:31, Love)

2. The Power of Encouragement & Identity

(04:06–09:56)

• Love sees encouragement and persistence as the roots of transformation.
• Developed an interest in psychological strategies—believing every individual needs a tailored approach (empathy, pushing, or psychology-based technique).
• His own role models: especially his adoptive father who “chose” him.

  “I always felt lucky…he’s always been my role model, my hero. He told me…you can do anything you want, anything you put your mind to.” (06:24, Love)

3. Adoption, Belonging, and Chosen Family

(06:50–11:59)

• Discusses the complexity of identity for adoptees: belonging isn’t limited to biological ties but chosen relationships as well.
• Stresses the value of friendship, mentors, and coaches as “chosen family.”

  “Some people don’t get to choose. You’re born into what you’re born into…as a coach, it’s important you reach out to those kids so they know they have a place.” (09:57, Love)

4. Nature, Nurture, and Self-Understanding

(12:38–23:40)

• Love learned early about his adoption, which shaped his outlook positively rather than traumatically.
• Reflected on the “nature vs. nurture” question—how his traits and struggles (like academic strengths and depression) related to his genetic background.
• Meeting his biological mother revealed both similarities and new challenges:
  • Biological mother’s extroverted, driven nature:

    "I realized my personality was much similar to hers than...my adoptive family." (19:33, Love)

  • Acknowledgment of inherited susceptibility to alcoholism and mental health patterns.

5. Trauma, Vulnerability, and the Wounded Healer

(26:13–37:29)

• Love shares about transforming personal pain (loss of a best friend, living with a mentally ill parent) into sources of empathy and motivation for others.
• Advocates for sharing one’s story openly—when ready—as a way to heal and empower both self and others.

  “The more vulnerable you get, when you’re able to tell your own story…there’s power in that.” (26:33, Love)

• References the myth of Chiron, the centaur—the “wounded healer”—as a guiding archetype:

  “Chiron...the centaur that...was wounded himself, but also...used his wisdom...to help others.” (34:46, Love)

6. Coaching Philosophy: Identity, Strengths, and Action

(29:12–31:52)

• Love’s empowerment formula with students/adults involves:

  • Identifying core values and character strengths.
  • Leveraging strengths to overcome challenges.
  • Reframing narrative—seeing trauma as a fuel for growth.

  “First I focus on...who are you? What are your values? ...How can you use your strengths to overcome challenges?” (29:12, Love)

7. Overcoming Adversity & Reframing

(41:08–43:31)

• Strategies for overcoming difficult days:

  • Reframing experiences through gratitude lists and inventory.
  • Practicing mindfulness, meditation (even if imperfectly).

  “Taking inventory...writing a gratitude list about things I’m grateful for...just pausing and taking a breath.” (41:08, Love)

8. Universal Truths & Connection

(48:57–52:00)

• Shared human experiences—loss, grief, perseverance—are the ties that bind diverse audiences.
• Describes a “Walk the Line” exercise to viscerally demonstrate commonality:

  “Everybody’s been knocked down...we have a lot more in common than we don't.” (48:57, Love)

9. Narrative Power: Rewriting the Self

(52:00–54:20)

• Love helps others (youth and adults) focus on narrative—highlighting resilience and strengths, not only wounds.

• Promotes telling “stories of resilience” over “sob stories.”

  “Do you want to tell stories of resilience where you overcame challenges?” (53:15, Love)

10. Manifestation & Visualization

(59:07–60:44)

• Favors visualization and journaling as tools for manifesting goals.

• Informed by the Law of Attraction, gratitude, and a “proactive hopefulness” as essential ingredients.

  “Visualization, I think, is big...gratitude is important because it helps us cultivate an optimistic mindset.” (60:20, Love)

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Notable Quotes

• On encouragement as the core of family:
  “Family is where encouragement is.” (11:39, Interviewer/Interlocutor)
• On the capacity to overcome loss:
  “I’ve learned to navigate through that and respond in more pro-social ways that are beneficial for not just myself, but others as well.” (33:18, Love)
• On the wounded healer archetype:
  “I think it’s when you can look at your story and...at things that may have been painful...and reframe certain things...learning your story and how to understand it can help you provide a sense of purpose.” (35:31, Love)
• On universal connection:
  “Everyone has adversity in their lives, and we have a lot more in common than we don’t.” (49:11, Love)
• On love as healing:
  “Love provides the most meaning and purpose in my life.” (58:34, Love)

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Memorable Moments & Timestamps

• [03:31] — Love tells the story of helping a wrestling student earn a college scholarship, marking a key turning point.
• [19:33] — Realization that his personality aligns more with his biological mother than his adoptive family.
• [26:33] — Discussion on vulnerability: sharing wounds gives power.
• [34:46] — Identification with Chiron, the “wounded healer.”
• [41:08] — Describes daily reframing and gratitude practice.
• [48:57] — Walk the Line exercise exemplifying universal experience of adversity.
• [53:15] — Emphasis on stories of resilience.
• [60:20] — Visualization and gratitude as central empowering practices.

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Tone & Language

The tone throughout is direct but compassionate—anchored in practical wisdom, honest acknowledgment of struggle, and the empowering reframing of adversity. William J. Love speaks with openness about his experiences, balancing personal vulnerability with strategic, actionable advice for transformation.

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For Listeners Who Haven’t Tuned In:

This episode is a profound conversation about how the currents of science, psychology, and spirituality can merge in a real-life journey toward resilience and purpose. William J. Love’s story is one of navigating adoption, identity confusion, mental illness in the family, and deep loss—not as mere obstacles, but as the forge for powerful insight and healing strength. With concrete methods (strengths assessment, journaling, visualization) and personal anecdotes, the episode offers both inspiration and tools for anyone seeking to rewrite their own narrative, empower others, or simply find deeper meaning in the observable unknown.

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Transcript

[Dr. Juan Carlos Rey]

Welcome to the observable unknown, where science meets the unexplained. I'm Dr. Juan Carlos Rey of crowscubboard.com and after two decades of working at the intersection of comparative religious studies, grief counseling, anthropology, quantum mechanics, and consciousness studies, I've discovered that our most profound human experiences often exist in the space between one what we can prove and what we can perceive. In this podcast, we'll explore the measurable influences of immeasurable forces, those hidden factors that shape our reality but often escape our traditional scientific frameworks. From the latest research in consciousness studies to the ancient wisdom that's now finding validation in neuroscience and quantum physics, we are here to bridge the gap between academic rigor and spiritual insight. Whether you're a skeptic, a seeker, or simply curious about the deeper mechanics of human experience, you're in the right place. Together, we'll examine the evidence, challenge our assumptions, and explore what happens when we dare to look beyond the obvious. Joining me for this episode is an individual who has dedicated his life to making unobtainable goals a reality for hosts of people who lack the enthusiasm, resilience, and grit to attain their heart's desires. William J. Love, a coach, son, motivational speaker, brother, educational specialist, and father, shares how his personal narrative inspires him to provide encouragement where it's lacking, and through this effort, transforms lives in surprising ways. Without any further ado, let's join the conversation.

[Interviewer]

Hey, Billy, it's so good to see you again. It's always a pleasure to sit with you and to have a chance to explore different topics. One of the things I'm always really mystified by is the kinds of changes you've unfolded in your own life. You know, you've guided so many others through transformation, yet every guide obviously begins with their own unheard story. What was the moment in your life, the crucible, if you will, that made you realize your voice could heal and inspire others?

[William J. Love]

Gosh, I'd have to say, when I was about 27 years old, I started coaching wrestling. And so my dad was a coach. So growing up, I was always around athletics, and I got an opportunity to do it, and I just. Just to see the transformation that kids would make in one year of wrestling with, you know, I've taken kids that had never wrestled before, and then the following year they're in the state finals. One time I'm out a kid that I just kind of recruited in the hallway. You know, three years later, he was a state champ. So that was kind of the catalyst, that kind of Got me to realize, you know, I'm able to help people and they, they listen to what I say. As far as, like a most important thing. My first season coaching, I met a kid whose parents never showed up to any matches, never met his mom, very talented, placed at State, parents never went to a single match, and he wanted to go to college. So I got in touch with my old high school coach, who was coaching at a university by that point, and I helped him get a scholarship, which was in Kansas, I live in Las Vegas, and drove him out there and saw him graduate college. And that was probably the moment where I, I understood, like, the true impact of, of the difference you can make as a coach.

[Interviewer]

So do you think it was just encouragement that he was lacking and once you provided it, that gave him the chance to go through his own metamorphosis, or do you believe that there was something else? Having someone to identify with or possibly having someone who maybe empathized with what he was going through? Having absentee parents.

[William J. Love]

I wouldn't say that I had absentee parents, but I think just, yeah, let. Letting him know that, like, he can take ownership of his own story and what does he want his story to be? And just the encouragement and just being persistent and reminding him that he showed so much grit on the wrestling mat and how that was going to transfer into life. Just the lessons that he learned in wrestling and like, hey, I have to just keep working at things and yeah, just kind of being on his case and just keep pushing him in the right direction and helping him make the right decision.

[Interviewer]

So certainly fostering a sense of tenacity and dedication is what helped him to grow and flourish. That's a great turning point for you to realize your voice had the impact that it had. When did you decide, I'm going to use this in a different way and fine tune it or refine it or maybe just dedicate it to something that you see now playing out every day.

[William J. Love]

I think I got interested in the methodology of the psychology behind it and like, understanding why it worked and using different tactics. And then, you know, as I got more experience coaching, realizing that every kid is different, you know, how, you know, whereas one kid I might show a lot of empathy for another kid I might push a little bit harder and just kind of understanding different methods and strategies I could use within psychology, which got me interested in other aspects of psychology and it's kind of how it's evolved from there.

[Interviewer]

Oh, that's fantastic. And that's a great turning point for you, obviously, is Realizing you had an impact and how to foster different traits and individuals to help them find their best selves. Who did that for you or where? Do you believe you saw some role model in your past who believed in you when it wasn't likely you're going to be believed in?

[William J. Love]

Definitely my dad. So I was adopted, and, you know, I always felt lucky that I, that I, you know, the. My dad chose me, you know, and he's always been my role model, you know, just really my hero throughout my life. And he's the one who's kind of motivated me. Always told me as a child, you know, you can do anything you want to, anything you put your mind to, you can, you can achieve, and, you know, things like that.

[Interviewer]

Since you've brought up the topic of adoption, certainly adoption and rehoming can leave invisible threads, ties to identity, loss and hope. Generally speaking, what have you learned about belonging from the children and families you've encountered? And how has it changed your own sense of home, either through your experiences or just watching and observing this phenomenon unfold in the lives of other adoptees?

[William J. Love]

I think it's just about finding a sense of connection and, and, and kind of finding out, you know, where you, where you belong. You know, whether it's being involved in, in social activities or athletics or, you know, when I was younger, like, to me, like, as an adoptee, my friends are, are just as important as my family. Like, I consider it kind of one, One big family, you know, so I think that, you know, with what I've noticed with other kids, it's just about, you know, they have to believe in. It's how they respond to things, and it's, you know, you may encounter some adversity, but how do, how do you, how do you respond to that? And, you know, where, where do you want to be is really the question. And how do you get there? And how do you navigate through that kind of gracefully making good choices and, and, you know, finding a sense of identity to where you feel like you belong.

[Interviewer]

Okay, so you believe that the idea of identity, at least for you, was in belonging. And clearly your father was a pretty important role model. Did you have other role models who showed you or reframed for you what the idea of belonging should or could look like? To that end, I would say, is there the possibility that in this concept of chosen family, you've pointed rather directly at. You have specific friends or maybe guidance counselors, teachers, professors who showed you that there was a balance between what's naturally a position to be placed in or to belong to because of your born family or the position that you make for yourself in a chosen family?

[William J. Love]

I mean, I have a lot of different mentors, you know, in different domains of my life, whether it's like spiritually or, you know, other head coaches, you know, that I've worked under as an assistant, that I, that I've looked up to, that have kind of seen me grow and that, that still give advice. What was the second part of the question?

[Interviewer]

So in those individuals whom you clearly look up to, is there some balance between the belonging that comes naturally to us in the families we have found ourselves in as children and the kind of belonging that you build for yourself by selecting a family or family members, picking a mentor, picking a coach, picking a best friend, picking a spouse, these chosen family models and how they allow you or afford you a different style of belonging to.

[William J. Love]

I mean, you know, some people don't get to choose. Right. Like you're born into what you're born into and that, and that can be tough. So I think as an educator, as a coach, it's important that you reach out to those kids to kind of let them know that they have a place, that you have a place for them and just showing them empathy, compassion, love, so that they can feel connected and start to kind of develop a sense of self efficacy for themselves and realized, hey, I can do this too. I can. You know, it's kind of like follow the leader.

[Interviewer]

Yeah. So do you think your experience as an adoptee allowed you to more fluidly or flexibly approach the idea of chosen family as being equal to or perhaps even greater than born family, which would then give you a special perspective on the problems of people born into families they don't fit into or prefer.

[William J. Love]

I would say it's definitely equal to, aside from my dad. I mean, my dad to me is ultimately, you know, number one. But then yeah, my friends and family and like, who you choose to be around, you know, is important. And I think that that requires good mentorship and whether it's learned through experience of like, maybe you made some bad choices and you hung out with some people that maybe weren't heading, you know, weren't headed door down the right path and you learned from that and then chose to select a group of people that were more inspirational to you. So yeah, I would say, I would say it's equal for myself.

[Interviewer]

Okay. You know, thinking about that, the idea of where chosen family or not natural born family comes from, it sounds like you're saying family is where encouragement is Is that something that you recognize and have tried to replicate in your own life?

[William J. Love]

Yeah, I mean, I. I think the root of it, like I said before, all stems from my dad. And now as a parent myself, I try to encourage my kids to, you know, take on challenges, to not be complacent, to. To seek goals and an opportunity. And the same thing with my students. I mean, it's. It's never too late. You know what I mean? It doesn't matter really what circumstance you may be born into. It's about, you know, what. What do you want your story to be? What do you, you know, who are you? What do you want in life? And. And how do you. How are you going to get there?

[Interviewer]

So taking that in the perspective of your own story, looking at the moments that you've had, I'd love to hear about your challenges and advantages being an adoptee. Did you look at it as a disability or did you look at it as an advantage when you first discovered? And when did you first discover?

[William J. Love]

Okay, that's a good question. So, obviously, I feel like when I was younger, I always felt like I was chosen, and I still feel that way. There'll always be a part of me that. That feels that way. I think naturally, as I got older, I got a little bit more curious about what is my. What is my birth family or biological family like, and do I have things in common with them and just like genetics and just started becoming more naturally curious. I also had a. My mother, My adoptive mother was very sick when I was growing up. She was mentally ill. And, you know, I realized at a really young age that. That I made better decisions than. Than she did, and so that that affected me as a child. So I don't know, that would be probably more what Nate. Or nurture, the nurturing side. But also, as I got older, I'm like, how much of that is nature, too? Like, was I genetically predisposed to being sensitive anyway? Was it because of, you know, the experiences I saw my. My adoptive mom go through? So, I mean, those are questions that I had growing up.

[Interviewer]

When did they disclose to you that you were adopted?

[William J. Love]

As young as I can remember. I mean, four. Four years old? Five.

[Interviewer]

Do you feel like that was something that gave you an advantage, or did it cause you more challenges in your future?

[William J. Love]

I don't think it. It. It gave me any more. It caused any problems. I mean, I would recommend telling a child earlier than later. I mean, I can't imagine I. I knew. I mean, I could recognize that I was adopted Even based on just how I look compared to my siblings who are not adopted. But, yeah, I think that the earlier you do it, the better, just because I think the shock value, you know, you read about it all the time online, where someone, they go on, you know, 23andMe or whatever, they do some genetic test, and they realize their dad was never their dad or, you know, their mom was never their mom, and it creates some. Or their mom was their aunt or something like that, and it can create some conflict. So I think the earlier the better.

[Interviewer]

With having known as early on, as you knew, did that motivate you to live differently than your siblings who were natural born in your family?

[William J. Love]

I don't think it motivated me to live differently. And again, I. I don't know if it was my dad so much or if I. If. If I was just intrinsically motivated through. Through genetics or where, like, my, for example, like, both my sisters struggled in school, whereas, like, academically, like, I always did really well and tested really high, and school is really easy for me. So I. I don't. I don't know if that answers your question, but that's.

[Interviewer]

I think it does. I think it does. So the genetic factor is obviously one that I'm sure you've thought a lot about. You clearly live in a world where lots of information is available. When did you start paying attention to the genetic differences and how that might have influenced your way of thinking, your way of being, Differences that you saw between yourself and your father, who you very much looked up to?

[William J. Love]

Yeah. Yeah. I'm sorry. Finished. When I was. Probably when I got to college and I got to be the age at which my parents gave me up for adoption, and I started to kind of reflect a little bit more about it and realize, you know, like, for example, my dad is not as extroverted as I am. He's not as social. And I also had an episode of depression, probably in, like, the middle year, my sophomore, junior year of college. That really made me think. I'm like, okay, is this genetic? Like, I really want to know. Like, does. Does depression run in my biological family?

[Interviewer]

What did you discover?

[William J. Love]

So I wrote a letter to the adoption agency, and they basically gave me all my medical history, and that's really all they gave me. There.

[Interviewer]

There was.

[William J. Love]

I mean, it was a closed adoption, so I didn't know anything. Anything other than that. And then ironically. So I was probably 20 when that happened. After I turned 21, I got a letter from Catholic Social Services in the mail stating that my biological mom wanted to meet me. And so it was just kind of ironic that I had reached out to the agency about the medical history and then, you know, that following summer or that, that, that next fall, she, she had reached out and wanted to, to meet.

[Interviewer]

So hearing upon receiving that letter that she wanted to meet you, did this excite you, scare you, change your attitude towards. Well, number one, your depression and number two, the life you were living at the time.

[William J. Love]

I definitely feel like it was a life changing moment. I think at the time I was just curious. I think I was just naturally curious as a 21 year old young adult. And yeah, I was. I don't want to. Excited isn't the right word. I wouldn't say that I was like overly excited because I remember when I was talking on the phone, what was. I forget the lady's name from the adoption agency. I used to remember it but you know, she was always like, she would tell me, she's like, it's not all rainbows and bubblegum. And like she sent me like all these pamphlets to read prior to about, you know, what to expect when meeting a biological parent and you know, really not getting your hopes. Not really, you know, getting your hopes up.

[Interviewer]

So then you clearly met your biological mother. What was that like? Did she meet your expectations or fail them?

[William J. Love]

I mean, we have a very special relationship. Most, most adoptees don't have this, the type of outcome that I, that I've had either. Like the novelty of meeting the person wears off initially. Like, okay, I met them, I know them. Okay, good, nice to meet you type deal.

[Interviewer]

Or.

[William J. Love]

You know, one party doesn't want to meet the other party or there's differences in expectations. But I think we just kind of hit it off. You know, she's a pretty excitable lady. She's fun to be around. And I realized that I had. My personality was much similar to hers than it was to anybody in my biological family. That makes sense. And my, in my adoptive family. That makes sense.

[Interviewer]

It does make sense. Earlier you mentioned some difficulties that your adopted mother faced. Clearly that sets you up with a certain idea about how mothers acted. Did meeting your biological mother change that sharply or largely keep you in a place where you believed there was a specific way to look at life, Living mental health, things of the variety that by most people's standards we learn from our parents. Clearly you knew that you had a different set of parents out in the world. Did you change your attitude towards those things, Change your attitude towards mental health, towards family cohesion, how people should act or shouldn't act.

[William J. Love]

The issues with my, with my, with my adoptive mom are lifelong. I mean, it's, it's never really changed. It's always, you know, she's been in and out of psychiatric hospitals my entire life. I mean, literally probably 100 times, you know, several suicide attempts, etc. And by meeting my biological mom, it provided a sense of ease, probably like realizing, okay, like, my biological mom isn't. Isn't. I don't want to say crazy, isn't mentally ill. But on the other hand, when I met my biological mom, we had gone up to the suite that she had at the Bellagio, and she asked me if I wanted a beer. And I said, sure. So I went to the fridge and grabbed a beer, and I was like, oh, well, what do you want to drink? And she's like, oh, I don't drink. I'm an alcoholic. So she was maybe like one year sober at that time. And, you know, I've seen her whole journey through. Through sobriety. I think she has like 20, 20 some odd years now. So it did make me aware of, like, oh, you know, alcoholism runs in my biological family. That's which. Which didn't run in my adopted family.

[Interviewer]

So that was a novel recognition that you obviously faced in meeting your biological mother mask about your biological father.

[William J. Love]

Yeah, I don't really know much about him other than he didn't want to meet, you know, as far as I know, like, it was. It was a. As far as he's concerned, it was a closed adoption. I know that he was an athlete in college. I know that he worked in law enforcement for a lot of years, works the D A. I've seen pictures of him and, and things like that, but that's. That's really all I know about him. I've never met him.

[Interviewer]

So in the grand scope of what this looked like, finding out about your biological mom, meeting her, seeing the life she was living, what sharp distinctions, what kinds of contrasts did you see between the way she lived and the way your adopted family had raised you to live? And then what does that do to calculate into your formula for success?

[William J. Love]

I don't know how it calculates into my formula for success, but. So I grew up, you know, lower middle class, my adoptive family, and my mom, when I met her, was very affluent and, like, to this day is very affluent. She married very well. And so that was like quite a. Quite a shock to me. That was something that was definitely new and different.

[Interviewer]

So the idea of how maybe success is achieved or how dreams are realized isn't something that you saw clearly distinguished between your biological mother and your adopted family, but something must have gone into. Not just your attitude towards resilience and tenacity, but also your attitude towards goal setting, establishing a framework for achieving goals. Do you think this is just coming from your father's role model, other mentors, or is there a genetic factor that you recognize?

[William J. Love]

I think that my mom is a go getter. I mean, for sure she's done a lot of things, helped thousands of women over the past 20 some odd years and, and was successful in her own right even prior to, to meeting her husband. And she knows how to, she knows how to hustle and get things done. And I can definitely relate to that. I mean, 100%. And she's, she's a big motivator. She, she's a, she's definitely a cheerleader and tries to, you know, want, wants the best for her kids.

[Interviewer]

Absolutely. Well, that's a key component. You mentioned earlier that you're an extrovert, but your father, your adopted father was not an extrovert andor is not at all. Your mother, however, is the biological mother. She's an extrovert. So this is probably, I think, a foundational point to what you might recognize as your skills or your success metrics is how much you're able to motivate people, engage people, excite them. Seeing that this is something that you probably did inherit from your mother genetically, did that change your attitude towards that skill set? Did you decide you want to sharpen it more? Did you have the realization that this is something I can really bring to other people and change lives with?

[William J. Love]

Like, I think that I learned more of like, even though my dad was an introvert, like the grit aspect of like working hard, like putting your nose to the shoulder, to the grindstone or nose, whatever that phrase is of, of like actually putting in the actual work and being a hard worker. But from the social aspect of like, not be with my biological mom, of not being afraid to ask for things or to talk to people or to meet people or to look for opportunity, whereas like a lot of people be afraid to go ask for an opportunity to ask for a job or to, for whatever it might be. I mean, she, she definitely influenced me, had a big influence on that aspect of my life.

[Interviewer]

Fantastic. So motivational speaking often involves turning pain into power. How do you personally walk the line between sharing your wounds and protecting the sacred spaces of own healing?

[William J. Love]

I think, you know, the more vulnerable that you get and the more when you, when you're able to tell your own story. It kind of gives it power. And, you know, there's certain aspects that I'm just not ready to tell it yet, you know, and. And I'm still working through that and, and reflecting through that and trying to find a. A way to kind of navigate what actions do I take now so that someday I can tell that story and help others. So I think that, you know, for the most part, my. My life is an open book. But, yeah, I think that sometimes there's wounds that people may have or there's things that people don't want to share. They're just not ready to share it yet. And, you know, like I said, my mom is. Is an alcoholic or recovered alcoholic. So I've been to AA meetings where I've seen people share for the first time, you know, and I've seen, like, how emotional it can be, and then I can see how happy they feel afterwards when people, you know, a person might say, hey, that. That really resonated with me, or they're. I can relate to your story and how that, you know, sometimes our own wounds and, and helping others, like, helps ourselves, if that makes sense.

[Interviewer]

It does. Is this because you see your wounds in others or because you take pity on the wounded? Because you are wounded?

[William J. Love]

I think both. I mean, I think that what makes me a good educator or is. Is being empathetic and showing compassion towards kids who. Who've gone through some. Some trauma. And I think that. What was the second part of the question or the second part?

[Interviewer]

Well, about having pity on people who are wounded because you view yourself as wounded.

[William J. Love]

Like, if I had to say the word pity, I would say it's like it's momentary. Like it's. It's a. Yeah, you show pity momentarily, but then it's like with. With kids especially, I'm like, okay, now we know. You know, you're aware of what. Of what's what. And I'm empathetic, and I understand now, what can we do to move forward so that you can be successful? What steps do we need to take? How can you. How can I empower you to reach your goals?

[Interviewer]

What is your empowerment formula most often sound like? What do you put into. Whether it's exercises or maybe even conversations where you're motivating kids or adults to. To get to their goals?

[William J. Love]

So first I focus on, like, who are you? You know, what are your values? What are your strengths? And I'll. I'll do like, a character strength assessment with the, with the kids and have them Identify with. I mean, there's 24 of them, but I'll have them focus on their top five strengths. So just by being aware of what they are, helps them figure out, kind of give them a little sense of identity. And then how can they leverage those strengths to overcome challenges that they may have or problems that they're facing in life? Like, how can, if you, if bravery is one of your top choices, how can you use bravery, you know, to get your, your grade up in, in math? Let's say something silly like that. Well, go talk to the teacher. You have bravery. Did you have a conversational. I don't like to talk to the teacher. But, but you're brave. Well, just go have a conversation. Don't write an email. Go, go talk to them in person. And then I try to tell them, hey, teachers are very empathetic and understanding and you know, by you exercising the strength of showing bravery and showing them that you want to get improve your grade, they're going to help you.

[Interviewer]

Tell me more about the strength assessment. When you use it, how you use it, and does it give you a taxonomy to set your students in or does it just give you a compass to navigate their success path?

[William J. Love]

So I one, it gives me an idea of what they're good at so I can kind of see what get to know them a little bit better, which helps me develop a rapport. But most importantly, it's for them. And then it's like, so how do you, I'll say, how do you use your strengths now? So tell me five ways that you use bravery now or tell me five ways that you use love right now or curiosity or whatever, whatever your strength may be, and then tell me five new ways that you can use that strength. So like in the future, moving forward, how can you use, you know, maybe it's, there's a challenge. I'll be like, write out a challenge that you have. How can you use each of your strengths, top five strengths to overcome that challenge? Or if it's something that you want. So like I said, I start with the, the who are you? Part and then what do you want? So how can you use your strengths to kind of get what you get what you want? And with kids, it usually starts out with like materialistic things like, well, someday I want to own a house, someday I want to own a car, or I want to live in San Diego or, you know, whatever. And with adults, it's, it's a little bit more, you know, personal with, about personal growth and sometimes not so, so much about materialism, it'd be more about like, improving a relationship or improving or something like that.

[Interviewer]

So just on a personal level, I know that you've chosen to tell your story in memoir form. What truths or experiences feel so vital, so urgent, that they must be preserved on the page? And what do you hope your readers will discover about themselves when they meet your story? Seeing your vulnerabilities?

[William J. Love]

You know, at a. Right before I got into coaching, my best friend committed suicide. And that was very traumatic for me. And I've lost a lot of friends in various ways. Coupled to suicide, coupled to drug abuse, car accidents. I mean, people that I ran with every single day, that, that, that shaped me. The second thing I would share, want people to know about is just the trauma that I suffered with having a mentally ill adoptive mother and just that lifelong process of, of learning how to set boundaries and, and dealing with that. And then the third would be like, you know, meeting my biological mom and how that changed my life in good ways and how it's become a very, you know, at times, complex relationship. And it's not so much that I would want the readers to just find something that maybe that, that resonates with them and that basically just the same story that you read in any other, any other movie that we watch or book that we read that, you know, the, the hero's journey or, you know, you get knocked down, but you get back up again and like, you can still be successful and still achieve the things that you want and, and how do you respond? You know, because there's been times in my life where I didn't respond well to adversity, but, like, I've learned to navigate through that and then respond in like, you know, more pro social ways that are beneficial for not just myself, but others as well.

[Interviewer]

Thank you. You mentioned the hero's journey and referencing Joseph Campbell. I feel like that's a pretty significant piece of the puzzle, especially when you think of rehomed individuals or adopted children across multiple cultures. There's rarely an identification with the family that an adoptee comes up in. Obviously your father was your role model, but there's still a sense of separateness, of otherness. And in cases like this, it's very normal for individuals to turn to literature, art, music, movies, or the myths of their culture to find some method of setting goals and establishing expectations for themselves. Was there a myth or a piece of literature, a film or a song that when you were coming up real, realizing that you were an adoptee and didn't look like the Other members of your adopted family you resonated best with and thought you wanted to model your life after.

[William J. Love]

Gosh, I mean, I really like Greek mythology. There's a few that I could. I could use there. I can identify with Odysseus with, like, being reckless at times and still kind of finding a way to persevere and get your way through. Through obstacles. But I would probably say Chiron, you know, the, the. The centaur that, like, helped, like, was wounded himself, but like, also, you know, was. Used his wisdom and, and to help others.

[Interviewer]

Yeah, the wounded healer, Chiron. That's something that I wasn't expecting, to be honest. Tell me more about how you identify with him and how that plays out in the life you're living now.

[William J. Love]

Like I said earlier, I mean, I think it's when you can. When you can look at your story and you can, you know, look at things that may have been painful. So I'll just give one example. I do this river of life exercise that with. With adults and, and kids where I have them. With kids, I have them write down 25 life experiences that they've. They've had throughout their lives in chronological order. And then with adults, I do about 100. And then I have them label them green or red. Red being they were negative and then green being positive. And then so it kind of. They learn kind of coherence in their story, right? Like, they learn how to, like, look back at their life and reflect. And for example, I kind of teach them how to reframe certain things. So it's like. Well, for example, like, I was adopted. You know, some people might put that as red or whatever. I never knew my biological mom, but I wouldn't trade that. Like, I would say that's more of a green than red, you know, or my parents getting divorced at the time. Was that a. Was that a red dot on my story? Absolutely. It was. It was terrible. But when I look back, like now, my dad is much happier and, and, and doing, Doing much better. And it was a good thing, you know, it was. It was a good. It was a good thing. So I think learning, like, learning your story and how to understand it can help you provide a sense of purpose, of, like, what do you want? So now that I know my story and, like, who I am and I have that awareness, what do I want? And realizing all the resilience that you've kind of shown throughout your life, how can you use that in the future to find some type of significance, some type of meaning and purpose? That's going to serve you.

[Interviewer]

That's fantastic. So I see Odishes on one side and Chiron on the other. Almost like two ends of the same pole. A spectrum, if you will. There's lots of instances where Odisha seems kind of cutthroat. Are there aspects to either of these archetypes that you try not to integrate into your identity? Aspects that you feel are not valuable.

[Dr. Juan Carlos Rey]

Or perhaps you do think are valuable.

[Interviewer]

But get criticism from others for?

[William J. Love]

Yeah, I mean, I. I think it's good to, you know, recognize flaws, right? Like, flaws that you have and. And instances where you come up short and then learning to, you know, like, for example, if I'm resentful, like, do I want to stay in that resentment and let it, like, burn and simmer, or do I want to, like, work more towards love and. And showing love instead? And like, it's that old, like, I think it's like old Navajo parable about the two wolves that live inside you. One that has hate and guilt and shame and, you know, anger and then the. The loving side. And it's like, you know, which wolf wins? It's like the wolf that you feed. Right. So it's like, if I feed. If I feed the qualities that I seen myself that are good and that are pro social and that are beneficial to others and myself, my life is going to be on a much brighter trajectory than if I choose. Choose to be reckless or choose to be spiteful or choose to be.

[Interviewer]

You.

[William J. Love]

Know, mean or whatever.

[Interviewer]

Since you motivate so many people and guide so many people, I'm sure you're held at a pretty high standard. And to that end, it must be challenging. So when you do falter, whatever that looks like, what kinds of things do you believe have pushed you to the point of faltering, have caused you to stumble and lose track of what looks like a very good model of how to live.

[William J. Love]

What are things in my life, basically? What are things in my life that have gotten me off track?

[Interviewer]

Yeah, off the track of this model that you've presented for others and for yourself.

[William J. Love]

I mean, just ordinary daily stress. I mean, I just went through a pretty bad divorce, so there was a lot of reflection there. And that's been a. That's been a work in progress, but I'm still hopeful and, like, encouraged by other people's stories. Right. Seeing other people navigate through the similar situations and knowing that, you know, I need to be a good example for my kids and, you know, as much as I maybe have conflict with their mother, I need to navigate through that gracefully for the sake of my kids. There's been instances where I've been reckless, like with. With drugs and alcohol, where I have to be mindful about, you know, do I really. Are these really necessary in my life for me to want to be productive and. And be. Be my best self and. And be able to accomplish the things that I want? Or do they, you know, do they hinder the things that I.

[Interviewer]

That I.

[William J. Love]

That I truly want?

[Interviewer]

That's fantastic. And that brings up a pretty good question. So clearly, the pitfalls that you face, as you said, are very normal. The kinds of pitfalls lots of people go through, whether that's failed relationships or difficulties with a disorder. When you find yourself not meeting the day with your best opportunities, your best attitude, your best resilience, what do you do to pull yourself out of it? How do you change the day, so to speak?

[William J. Love]

I use reframing techniques a lot, but I also. I mean, it could. It's a lot of different things. Taking inventory, writing down, Jotting down things about my day, you know, that maybe were terrible. Right. And then writing a gratitude list about things that I'm grateful for. So it kind of reframes like, well, things aren't really that bad. I still paid all my bills. I still. I still have two beautiful kids. You know, I still did a good job at work today, even though, you know, I got an argument with Val or. Or someone like that or my ex wife. But so I think taking inventory, I think, and reflecting on that, I think just pausing and taking and breathing, like just in the moment of just taking a breath and just kind of re. Recalibrating and. And just so being mindful in a way, like, mindfulness helps. Like, really, like when I start to realize, oh, my. My stress level starting to rise. Like, why is my stress level rising? And what can I do about it? Okay, I can take a walk or I can breathe, or I can. I can do whatever to just kind of settle it down in that moment. And then, you know, on a deeper level, like meditation, which is something that I'm familiar with, but I don't practice it enough. So it's. It's really, you know, everything is a work in progress. And. And I tell my students that too. It's like, I'm not perfect. I have to work through things, and it takes work. You know, it takes. It takes effort, and it takes practice. You have to do. It takes action. So I think just creating, being aware, and then taking actions, the best steps towards the best outcome.

[Interviewer]

Absolutely. You know, One of my favorite quotes was when Joan Baez said that the solution for hopelessness is action. And that sounds like it's very much at play in what you're trying to explain to people who might lose motivation or lose the resilience that they've called on.

[William J. Love]

I mean, I think that's the key, man, to life really, is, you know, shit's going to happen and it's. How do you respond? That's, that's the whole key is things are going to happen and it's how, how. How are you going to respond? And that's where you have choice. That's where you can make a decision and then take action towards it.

[Interviewer]

Change your life or keep it the same. Absolutely.

[William J. Love]

Or. Or go the other way. Yeah.

[Interviewer]

So the adoption system can be both a lifeline and a labyrinth. From your perspective, what are the deepest misconceptions the public holds about adoption and what realities do you wish everyone could see?

[William J. Love]

Gosh, I can't speak to that in the sense that I've never given up a kid for adoption. So I, I don't. I don't know what that's like. I think that's more of, like, from a parental perspective of what. That. Of what that's really like. I think a lot of kids. I think about a lot of the kids who are lost. I think about a lot of the kids who, who never get adopted, right? Who stay in some type of orphanage or in. In some type of child care system where they. They never get adopted. So I think that there's. There's issues there. On a personal level, like, I would say that I'm pro life, right? Like, if I was ever in a situation where, and, and thankfully I never have been, I would, I would be pro life or encourage pro life, but politically, like, I'm pro choice because I don't feel like it's my right to tell anybody else what to do. So, yeah, I think that it's. I think adoption is a beautiful thing, you know, and I think that a lot of kids need homes, and I think if it's, if it's. It's. It's a beautiful thing. Most. Most of the time. And even as. As an adoptee, whatever issues you may have, you can still work through them and, and still overcome whatever, Whatever challenges you may face.

[Interviewer]

Did you feel that as an adoptee, your treatment, whether in your family or outside of your family, was ever different, was ever harder?

[William J. Love]

Sorry, say that again.

[Dr. Juan Carlos Rey]

Your treatment as an adoptee, was it.

[Interviewer]

Ever something that you recognized as harder inside of your adopted family or outside in the world?

[William J. Love]

Gosh, as far as treatment goes, I never felt treated differently in my adopted family. But to be honest with you, like, I do feel like I have another half sibling and I do feel like I get treated differently on my biological side than my sister who was raised by my mother.

[Interviewer]

How so? Treated differently.

[William J. Love]

Different expectations. She just has. I don't really want to talk about it, but just.

[Interviewer]

Just a different standard then.

[William J. Love]

Yeah, yeah, different. Different standards.

[Interviewer]

Yeah, I understand. Yeah, that makes good sense. Do you think that going through a family that didn't treat you like you were adopted, even though it was very obvious to you, obviously they, they wanted to keep you in the know, they were honest with you. They told you up front. Did they ever change their, their ways of managing you or treat you maybe more carefully because you were adopted than perhaps your, your sisters in the adopted family?

[William J. Love]

No, because I think I always, I always did. Well, I mean, believe me, when I growing up with a mom who had mental illness, like, know there were times where she's like, I wish I never adopted you. I mean, I've heard it all, but I know that she was sick, you know, like she just was not well. But I, I never really took it to heart because I knew she was, was sick. But yeah, that, you know, I, I don't feel like my, my dad treated me any differently. And I think that I was always intrinsically motivated. From what? Whatever. That there was intrinsic motivation and there was motivation in addition to that. The. Just the example that my dad set.

[Interviewer]

So it didn't set a different standard or bar for you. It didn't make you more of a people pleaser or less of a people pleaser. It didn't modify how you interacted with the world that you found yourself in, whether that was your adopted family or if that meant even when you finally met your biological mom.

[William J. Love]

I mean, I think my life has become more complex since I met my biological mom because there's that whole other side, right, that it's like you kind of add. I mean, imagine adding in 75 other people into your life. That and all their. All, all the things that go on and the complexities of, of what goes on in families. So at times I feel like it's been, it's been more stressful. Yeah. But it's like having two, two families and you can look at it two ways.

[Interviewer]

Right?

[William J. Love]

Like one, that's a great thing. And, and 99 of it is awesome.

[Interviewer]

It's great.

[William J. Love]

Like there's 1% where it's like, yeah, I have probably a little more stress.

[Interviewer]

Or.

[William J. Love]

Several more relationships to manage. And in different ways, that makes it things a little bit more difficult at times.

[Interviewer]

I can imagine. So you've traveled and spoken to audiences across the country. What universal truths or struggles have you encountered that connect people, no matter where they come from or what they've endured?

[William J. Love]

I think it's just. It's universal that everybody's been knocked down. You know, everybody has problems, everybody has issues. Recognizing that there's. There's an exercise that we do in one of our groups where it's called Walk the Line, where we put. Literally put a line. Tape a line down the middle of the room, and we asked them a series of questions. And either you walk toward the line or you step away from the line. And it's a very powerful exercise because it starts out with real simple stuff like, have you graduated from college? Some will step toward the line, some will stay where they're at. Have you had a parent who's had substance abuse issues walk toward the line, step back from the line? Have you. Has anyone in your family ever, you know, been murdered or. I mean, it gets very. It gets very deep. So you can see the similarities and the vulnerability in the room at times where, like, some people, they're like, you know, they'll see other people walk to the line. Like, they're reluctant at first, but then they'll see a few other people have experienced that, and then they'll have the courage to step forward and, And. And step on the line themselves. So I think it's just knowing that everyone. Everyone has adversity in their lives, and we have a lot more in common than we don't, you know, and I think that that's. That's a misconception is like, a lot of times when. When we're going through personal things, we think that we're the only ones and, and we're not. It's. It's. A lot of people have gone through that before, so developing a connection with those people.

[Interviewer]

So the isolation that people either force upon themselves or find themselves in because of alien relationships or challenging family dynamics, this is the only real problem that people suffer from. And it's a common problem. It's a universal dilemma. Do you feel that this is what people connect over?

[William J. Love]

Yeah, I do. I think that, you know, like, back to, like, just the. The examples that I've seen with my mom, my biological mom with, like, AA and like, seeing. Seeing people struggle and then get better because they found something in common with Someone else in. In that room or in that meeting that they made a connection with and that they. They were able to kind of heal. So I think that, you know, our stories help. Help others, can help others. And it's about teaching people how to tell their stories so that they can help other people.

[Interviewer]

Strength through vulnerability. That's fantastic and absolutely resonates more with Kyron than addition, in my opinion, as a coach and educator. How do you teach others to reclaim their inner narrative, to rewrite their own story? Especially when that story began with trauma, loss, or abandonment?

[William J. Love]

Gosh, first, I mean, I, I like, again, I start with. With the strengths, knowing what their strengths are, and then, you know, teaching them how to tell a story of resilience. So tell me a story. When you, when you overcame a challenge and, and sometimes, you know, you'll get people who go really deep on things. You know, like, I've heard women. It's very emotional talk about having miscarriages and, like, how they navigated through that. And, you know, I've heard stories that aren't, you know, how the kid made a friend at school or something like that. Like, something that's like, very, very basic. But I teach them, you know, what, first of all, what are you looking at in your story? Is it positive or negative? So it's really easy if I said, go, go pick five things that, you know are bad in the world or whatever and, you know, go outside and think, pick five things that are bad, oh, the grass is too long and it's too windy outside, or blah, blah, blah. Take you, like, you know, five or six seconds to find negativity and not a long time. My point is, is that, like, when you get them to shift to look at. All right now, now tell me positive things. Tell me, tell me three good things or, you know, five good things, and to get them to kind of look on what's good and start to realize that kind of. That's. That's where the power is. And where do they. Where do they want to go? And, and like, what stories do you really want to tell? Like, do you want to tell sob stories and get pity from everyone your whole life? Or do you want to tell stories of resilience where, you know, you. You overcame challenges? And I think that that takes work, too, and just explanatory style, you know, like, there's always, like, the Eeyores out there that are, like, the woe is me type deal, and things are bad. And then there's, you know, people who are positive that. That can tell you a sad story, but it's like, it's empowering, right? So it's like getting them to real, you know, what are their strengths and how do you want to tell your story?

[Interviewer]

So power in secret places or power through the injury and trauma itself.

[William J. Love]

Yeah, that's empowering. Once you take ownership of it, it can be very powerful.

[Interviewer]

That's fantastic and very insightful. Thank you for that. One of the things I think a lot about is how people connect. You know, there's a general connection people make where they're having the same interests or they have the same feelings, fields of study or research. Then there's a more personal, more direct connection. In order to be successful not only as an educator, but also as a.

[Dr. Juan Carlos Rey]

Motivational speaker, you have to connect to.

[Interviewer]

A lot of people on a very personal level. Is there a method, a tool, or maybe just an anecdote that you use to connect with everyone in a group or an entire class?

[William J. Love]

I mean, I share stories all the time, and as you know, you know, kids will complain about a coach or something like that, or they'll complain about a teacher and like, I'll share a story about. Yeah, hey, I had a difficult time with my math teacher when I was a sophomore in high school, and, you know, she failed me and I had to retake it, you know, the following semester and how I changed my attitude and how I got, you know, ended up getting a B in the class or whatever. So I'll share real basic general stories, but, you know, I hear real sad stories too. Like, you know, obviously the, the as you get to know the students, the more they'll share with you and, you know, I'll. I'll open up more to them on a personal level with, you know, like, loss of friends or, you know, like, I lost a student a couple years ago who was. Was shot and killed, and like, several of the kids were upset and, you know, so I shared stories of loss, you know, that I had and like, how I work through that and how it's. It's. It's things that can happen in life. And how do you respond? How are you going to respond to it? You know, are you going to.

[Interviewer]

Go.

[William J. Love]

Down a rabbit hole of despair or for how long are you going to go down that rabbit hole? Or are you going to, you know, do something positive to honor your friend? You know, things of that nature.

[Interviewer]

What mystery, whether personal, spiritual, or universal, continues to guide your work and your life's journey?

[William J. Love]

I think just like believing in the good, in humanity. And I don't know what that. I mean, I feel like it comes from the universe kind of focusing on love, you know, and, like, bringing people together and. And using it as, you know, I don't know if it was Martin Luther King, but, like, darkness is. Darkness leads to darkness to. Leads to light and hate. Hate leads to love or whatever. Can lead to love or whatever. You know, after I forget the quote, but just realizing that, you know, there's. I can use my. My wisdom to. To help others and that, like, you know, we're all wounded in some sense, but we all can tell a story and we can all use that story to. To help others, and it's a universal thing.

[Interviewer]

So love is your universal truth and why you think it's possible to heal any wound?

[William J. Love]

Yes.

[Interviewer]

That's profound. Is there a moment in your life when you didn't believe this and what caused you to not believe this?

[William J. Love]

Is there a moment? I mean, sure, there's been moments in my life, like when I, you know, when I went through the divorce, it was terrible, but realizing that I love my kids and like, that's, That's. That's the light, that's the way out and. And taking care of them and making sure that they're good. And that's how, you know, I use love to kind of negate some of that resentment that I have, some of that. It's all a work in progress. Like, it's. It's never. It's. It's all about taking action, and it's. It's about awareness is like the first part. Being aware and reflecting and having that awareness and then taking action and knowing what you want. And when I say by knowing what you want, like finding meaning and purpose and living a life that has meaning and purpose, and I try to do that through love. Like, love provides the most meaning and purpose in my life.

[Interviewer]

I can see that. Definitely. You're a good example of that concept. When you establish a goal for yourself, or if you're counseling someone and you have to help them establish a goal, what's your favorite tool to help them achieve that? Your favorite method or secret? If I can say that.

[William J. Love]

I would say just doing a lot of visualization, I think is big and like journaling and. And getting them to kind of manifest things. And I. I think that that's something that I'm naturally kind of good at, where it's. It's not always at the forefront of my mind, but it's like in the back of my mind. And then it's like an opportunity will come up and I'll, I'll take advantage of that opportunity. And then obviously there's short term goals that you can teach kids, like smart goals and like, and all stuff like that. But on a bigger picture, it's about kind of manifesting what you want and, and, and taking the steps toward realizing that goal. Who taught you about visualizing? Mike D. I read a lot of Mike Dooley, the, the Secret, the, you know, the movie the Secret. Just attracting what you want, you know, and through the choices that you make and, and things like that.

[Interviewer]

The Law of Attraction. Yeah, that's a great metaphysical piece that in every likelihood, most people don't really acknowledge as being active in their success.

[William J. Love]

Framework, but probably is gratitude too. I think gratitude is important because it helps us, it kill, it helps just cultivate an optimistic mindset, you know what I mean? And if you can keep optimism and hope at the forefront, you're going to be more likely to be gritty and be willing to put the work in and do the things you need to do to accomplish the goal.

[Interviewer]

Yeah, I believe that. I do. What a fantastic note to finish on. Thank you so much, Billy. It's always great to chat with you and hopefully I will have a chance to chat with you again soon.

[William J. Love]

Yeah, thank you, man. You're the best.

[Interviewer]

Yeah, absolutely. Take care of them. Thank you so much. In today's episode, we discovered that the.

[Dr. Juan Carlos Rey]

Gap between success and the lack thereof lies in encouragement. Traditionally, people find encouragement from family, from friends, from the institutions they belong to. But sometimes there's a deficit and in order to achieve real success, they have to be given some kind of support in some way and from some place that they might not expect it. I can't help but to believe that Billy's background as an adoptee shaped his desire to encourage others. His desire to help those he might have seen some part of himself in and wanted to heal the wounds that he felt perhaps he had suffered. At the end of every day, family, whether chosen or by birthright, is more often than not where we will discover our real success. In the encouragement that they give us us, we can find resilience, grit, the desire to do better, to be better. Remember, what appears unknowable often stands right before us, waiting to be observed through both the lens of science and the wisdom of spirit. Until next time, this is Dr. Juan Carlos Rey of crowscubboard.com inviting you to look deeper into the observable unknown.

[Interviewer]

Ra.