Chrissie Hodges: Acceptance of OCD (#507)

Summary

The OCD Stories – Episode #507

Guest: Chrissie Hodges
Host: Stuart Ralph
Title: Acceptance of OCD
Date: October 12, 2025

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Episode Overview

In this thought-provoking episode, Stuart Ralph welcomes peer support specialist, advocate, and author Chrissie Hodges for a deep-dive into the concepts of acceptance and radical acceptance within the context of living with Obsessive Compulsive Disorder (OCD). Speaking not from a clinical but a lived-experience perspective, Chrissie unpacks what acceptance truly means, why it's so widely misunderstood, common barriers (especially with taboo themes), and why practicing acceptance is often one of the hardest but most essential skills in OCD recovery. The discussion is packed with practical wisdom, vulnerable stories, and validation for anyone struggling to "accept" the reality of their OCD.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Chrissie’s Current Work and Community (02:00–04:16)

• Chrissie shares her updates: development of an online support community/app for people with OCD offering forums, book club, victory sharing, and support groups worldwide.
• Launching in-person international events via her organization OCD Game Changers.
• Starting a master’s in counseling, combining new clinical skills with ongoing peer support work.

2. What is Acceptance in OCD? The Source of Misunderstanding (05:55–08:45)

• Acceptance is commonly misunderstood as “approving” or “believing” intrusive thoughts are true.
• Chrissie’s definition: “Acceptance is acknowledging or recognizing something that is true, such as a fact or an offer.” (05:55)
• Crucially, acceptance is not about accepting the content of intrusive thoughts, but accepting the presence of OCD and the experience as part of one’s life.

3. What Acceptance is NOT (09:12–15:23)

• Not approval:

  “Acceptance is not approval. This is the number one thing I think I hear or I hear from individuals when we talk about acceptance... ‘If I have to practice acceptance, then I have to approve of the thoughts...’”
  — Chrissie (10:12)

• Not surrendering/giving up:
  Many fear “surrender” means endless suffering or becoming their intrusive thoughts.

• Not weakness:
  Letting go of the fight can feel weak, but often it’s the bravest act.

• Not ‘being OK’ with the content:
  You’re not accepting the truth of the thoughts, but accepting their presence.

• Acceptance is a nuanced, layered choice; it may look different when insight is high versus when someone is deeply triggered or doubting.

4. Acceptance is Not the Same as Relief or Peace (19:38–29:19)

• Misconception that acceptance should feel positive or easy.
• Practicing acceptance often evokes difficult emotions (pain, shame, despair)—and that’s OK.
• “Acceptance is painful... Acceptance evokes deep negative emotions sometimes. And that’s okay too.” — Chrissie (21:52)
• Stuart shares his own experience: Acceptance didn't make anxiety disappear instantly, but it stopped the cycle of struggle.

  “I wasn’t at peace, but I wasn’t fighting it anymore. So in some way I was in pain, but I wasn’t struggling...” (23:56)

5. Barriers to Acceptance (especially with Taboo Themes) (35:57–41:13)

• Intense shame, guilt, and self-blame undermine acceptance, especially for taboo or disgust-inducing intrusive thoughts.

• “Acceptance is difficult... due to the intense fear, shame, self-blame, and that the thoughts might be revealing one’s true self, leading to resistance rather than acceptance.”
  — Chrissie (36:07)

• Fear that acceptance = risk (of harm, of being the “bad” person OCD claims).

• The “deserving” piece—feeling unworthy of happiness blocks acceptance.

• Wanting to feel continual disgust/agitation as “proof” one is not the feared content.

6. Low Insight: Unique Challenges (19:10–19:38, 39:26–41:13)

• Acceptance is especially hard when insight is low and it feels “this time, it isn’t OCD, it’s real.”
• Building insight can take time and repetition; self-compassion is a crucial ingredient.
• Therapists can help increase insight and tolerance for uncertainty.

7. Radical Acceptance: Beyond Basic Acknowledgment (41:13–54:11)

• Definition:

  “Radical acceptance... means completely embracing and challenging facts of your reality with your whole being. It involves accepting the past and present situation fully without judgment.”
  — Chrissie (41:17)

• RADICAL acceptance feels terrifying:

  “It feels like the epitome of being trapped. I am trapped in this moment and all I want to do is look to the past when it used to be better and look to the future... with doom.” (41:39)

• Chrissie: She can’t practice radical acceptance in the thick of an episode—might come later, when she can see things more clearly.

• Radical acceptance is not approving of, condoning, or liking the experience—it’s about letting go of the urge to make reality different before moving forward.

8. Visual Metaphors & Strategies (44:57–47:38)

• The “tug-of-war with a monster”/dropping the rope metaphor (Act): Letting go stops the struggle.
• “The mind is like a muddy puddle... It’s best cleared by leaving it alone.” (Alan Watts) (44:57)
• Practicing radical acceptance gives freedom: “There’s freedom in seeing exactly what’s happening right now and not judging or having to change it—because eventually, it will naturally change on its own.” — Chrissie (47:11)

9. Acceptance in Everyday Life: The Difficult Person Analogy (51:35–52:20)

• Radical acceptance in OCD is like learning to be with a difficult family member—you don’t approve/like it, but you accept the reality and let go of the urge for them to change.

10. Recovery is an Ongoing Practice (52:20–54:11)

• OCD may always be present; symptoms can recur.
• Acceptance is not a finish line—it evolves with recovery.
• “Acceptance is whatever it is to you. ...It is something to be practiced. It is fluid and will likely change over time as you get deeper and farther into your recovery. But keep practicing.” — Chrissie (54:02)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the biggest misconception:

  “Acceptance is not approval. This is the number one thing I think I hear... it’s not approval of the thoughts.” (10:12)

• On why acceptance feels so hard:

  “If I accept and I surrender to this, then whatever dark feeling I've experienced before—I'm just allowing myself to experience that every day, all day, for the rest of my life. And that is terrifying for people.” — Chrissie (11:50)

• On practicing acceptance in pain:

  “I was in the haze for a while with OCD... I fought for a good three hours. And then, very much like you, the surrender... the sadness flooded it. That is not relief. That is not peace. But what it was is exactly what you said: it was stopping the fight.” (25:22)

• On the role of shame in taboo themes:

  “There is this... fears that there’s something deeper that needs to be resolved—‘This cannot be OCD’—and I'm not willing to take the risk. And that's where acceptance can really become tricky.” (38:43)

• On the emotional vulnerability of acceptance:

  “Just thinking about it makes me want to come to tears. Like, just the vulnerability of—I have to sit in this. I have to sit in this right now in order to move through it. It is terrifying. It is dark. It's such a dark, isolating place...” (29:19)

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• Chrissie’s support community/app: 02:00–03:30
• Acceptance definition + first misconceptions: 05:55–08:45
• What acceptance is NOT: 09:12–15:23
• Why acceptance doesn’t feel good: 19:38–22:51
• Taboo themes, shame, and authenticity barriers: 35:57–39:26
• Low Insight, therapy, and self-compassion: 39:26–41:13
• Radical acceptance defined & practiced: 41:13–47:38
• Daily life analogy for radical acceptance: 51:35–52:20
• Acceptance as ongoing practice: 52:20–54:11

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Tone & Language

Throughout, Chrissie and Stuart are empathetic, validating, and use plain, conversational language. They share from personal experience, do not sugarcoat the pain involved, and make clear that acceptance is difficult, nuanced work especially when confronting shame, guilt, and terror.

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Takeaway Messages

• Acceptance does not mean approving or believing intrusive thoughts—it's accepting the experience of OCD itself.
• Radical acceptance is a deeper, non-judgmental embrace of "what is," which does not equal liking or approving a situation, but letting go of the urge to change reality before moving forward.
• The practice of acceptance is often painful, does not bring instant peace, and involves sitting with discomfort.
• Shame, guilt, fear, low insight, and a sense of unworthiness can all be barriers—these are normal but can be worked through with time, practice, and self-compassion.
• Acceptance is a fluid, ongoing skill that evolves throughout recovery and can support living meaningfully even with OCD's presence.

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If you are struggling with acceptance in OCD—it's normal. It's a hard, courageous practice, and you are not alone.

Transcript

[A]

You're listening to the OCD Stories podcast hosted by me, Stuart Ralph. The OCD Stories is a podcast dedicated to raising awareness and understanding around obsessive compulsive symptoms. I do this through interviewing inspired therapists, psychologists and people who have experienced OCD. Welcome to the OCD stories and welcome to episode 507 of the podcast. And then this one I got on. Chrissie Hodges. Chrissy is a peer support specialist, founder of OCD Game Changers and author of Pure ocd, the Invisible side of Obsessive Compulsive Disorder. Chrissie was given the Hero Award at the 24th ISDF Conference in San Francisco. And in this episode we discuss her community acceptance and radical acceptance. What is acceptance? What are we actually accepting? What acceptance is not taboo, themes of ocd, shame and guilt, barriers to acceptance, and much more. And thanks to our podcast partners. Nocd. If OCD is interfering with your life, NOCD can help their licensed therapists specialize in exposure and response prevention therapy. The most proven therapy for OCD with NOCD, effective treatment that is 100% virtual, is available for children and adults with OCD and most members can get started within seven days on average. No hassle, just real science backed help and support between between sessions. Begin your [e-mail] or I'll put the link in the episode description. And thank you so much to Chrissy for her time and expertise. I deeply appreciate it and of course thank you to you guys for listening. As always, it means a lot. Without further ado, here is Chrissy. Welcome back to the podcast, Chrissy.

[B]

Oh, thank you for having me. It's always a pleasure to be here.

[A]

Yeah, it's good to have you back on. It's been a minute and I guess firstly an update on you, like what you've been up to, anything you want.

[B]

To share, lots of good stuff. I. Over the last year I have created an online support community for individuals with OCD and recently, in the last, I would say four months, have made it into an app. So it's in an app form and it really has been the coolest thing I've ever been able to do for myself and for other people. We've got people from all over the world, we have member forums, we have, we have a book club, we have, we have places you can go and post things that you've done that are victorious. And I run, we run support groups every week, one on one, peer support every week, all kinds of events you've been on a couple times actually and just, it just continues to grow and, you know, a lot of creative stuff for people to come together and share experiences, get to know one another. So it is. It has just been phenomenal for healing for me and I know a lot of others, and it's accessible to anyone that has lived experience. And then OCD game changers is. We're about to. It's. It's September now, so in October 2025 will be in Wales and Ireland. And then the goal next year is to be in Spain and Poland and maybe a couple states here nationally. So. And then I will be headed back to grad school in January.

[A]

Wow. To do well.

[B]

So I will be getting a master's in counseling. And my. I hoped. I'm doing a lot of different things. Things in different areas to try to hone in and narrow down where I want to go with it. It's. It's likely I'll be working more in the system and probably close to home in person stuff. So. Really excited about that.

[A]

Amazing. So. So not necessarily ocd.

[B]

As a clinician, I probably will, of course get trained to treat ocd, but it will not be my specialty now. I. But I will still be doing peer support and doing all those things because that is the most important thing close to my heart when it comes to community. Okay.

[A]

Nice. Awesome. No. Amazing news. Excited to hear how that goes. And didn't I say that to you in 2018 at the Washington ICF? Do you remember that in the bar? I said, like, you should, or it's a shame you don't train as a therapist.

[B]

Yes. I was not ready then, but seven.

[A]

Years later, I'm ahead of my time. But no, it's good. It's good. And there's nothing wrong with obviously being a peer support specialist because it's such a vital and needed role. And of course, there's just not enough of them. But it was just for you. I just felt like, yeah, you could bring a lot to the role therapist. So, yeah.

[B]

I do think that my experience in being a peer support has put me in the position to know, really know exactly what I want to do, because a lot of people do go into the field and not know where they want to go and what they want to do. I already have some. Some skills that I can bring into the role and get the experience I have as a peer will put me in a position also to be able to supervise peers that are up and coming. And so that way, extending the field more and especially toward ocd, which I feel like is really needed.

[A]

Yeah, absolutely. I Agree with that. Cool. Amazing. And yeah, your community. I've spoken to several people recently that have been within it and one of the, my guests recently was in it. So that's, that's cool. So we're going to talk about acceptance and radical acceptance today. Like where did you want to start?

[B]

Well, the reason why I wanted to address this is so I run groups as well through my practice and acceptance is always a topic that comes up, A, that people struggle with and B, people misunderstand from a lived experience perspective. So I want to preface the guests that are listening to this that this is not a clinical talk, this is a lived experience. In fact, over the last few weeks I have run groups specifically on acceptance to kind to gauge really what from a community standpoint, where are some of the points that need to be filled in and what are people's experiences with acceptance, misunderstandings and struggle around it. So I did, I, I thought that we could start with the definition. So acceptance is acknowledging or recognizing something that is true, such as a factor in offer. This in itself, I feel like is the very start of the misunderstanding. And then, and then I want to go into what acceptance is not. If that's okay with you. Yeah, I think that two points. First, when we think of acceptance in terms of OCD and we're looking at this definition, acknowledging or recognize something that is true, what are we immediately going to go to? I have to acknowledge that my intrusive thoughts are true. Whether or not I could sit there in front of someone and say, this is not what this means, that's what's going to happen because meta ocd. So it's important when we talk about acceptance to really put it into context for people. What are we talking about when it comes to acceptance? And I think the distinction isn't always made. We're not talking about the intrusive thoughts, images, sensations, feelings. We're talking about OCD in general. And I think it's so important for people to understand that because what we're doing is, it is engaging in the cycle of problem solving ocd. So when we hear acceptance, we think, oh my gosh, what does this mean about the cycle, not the overall disorder. And I do think a lot of times when people are looking on Dr. Google and all the social media, they see acceptance as a potential solution, but they don't understand what acceptance really means. I do think it's multilayered too. Acceptance can be of the entire disorder and living with the disorder, but it, and it also can mean what does acceptance mean? When it comes to the thoughts. But today I want to focus more on acceptance in terms of the disorder. That's ocd. Yeah.

[A]

Yeah, I like that. And you're right. Yeah. When I've expressed acceptance to people before, or maybe even the early days of me coming across this concept was the misconception of, like you said. Yeah. I have to accept or believe in my thoughts. And that's not the case. It's just accepting the presence of them, not accepting whether they're true or not, Accepting that I'm. My brain is bombarding me with a load of stuff I don't like.

[B]

Yes, I agree. And then, so with that said, let's go into what acceptance is not. So like I said before, the. This is coming directly from individuals with lived experience, including myself, things that I've struggled with. So I think a lot of times people, like I said before, mistake acceptance without context. So this is, this is what sometimes people believe acceptance to be, which I don't believe it is. Acceptance is not approval. This is the number one thing I think I hear or I hear from individuals when we talk about acceptance. It is this which is so panic inducing. You know, if I have to practice acceptance, then I have to approve of the thoughts. And this I feel like aligns with the definition of acceptance, which is where we, where we, where it gets twisted in our minds. It's not approval. It's not approval of the thoughts. And I think that the panic part of that is, well, if acceptance is the way and I have to approve of the thoughts, then I will resist. And I think with acceptance, that's what unfortunately a lot of people do and is they go the opposite direction, especially taboo, intrusive thoughts, which we'll get to. The other one is if I practice acceptance, I'm surrendering. And I. And I think that that part is so difficult for us to surrender because our natural inclination is to do the compulsions. So when we think about if I practice acceptance, I'm going to surrender. Meaning and we don't want to. Well, I'm too scared to give up the fight because that might lead to approval. And I don't, I don't want to not do the compulsions because that's what I want to do. Because I'm uncomfortable believing that this is always going to be in my mind. Yeah. With that point, I feel like what we're really missing is the surrender part means I will suffer indefinitely. That's the real fear.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

If I accept and I surrender to this, then whatever dark feeling I've experienced before. I'm just allowing myself to experience that every day, all day, for the rest of my life. And that is terrifying for people. And I have been in that position too, and often do when I get triggered or I'm having an episode of ocd. I think that's one of the bigger. It's a hindrance for people to embrace acceptance.

[A]

It reminds me of in act, the. The metaphor of tug, of war, of a monster. Like, you can't win against a monster because they're stronger than you, but you can drop the rope. And. And for me, that's a bit like surrendering acceptance. It's just stop playing the game of ocd. But I. I get the. What you're saying there. The fear is, well, actually, if I stop fighting, it will never go away. But actually it's in the not fighting that it does go away, as you know.

[B]

Right. And I think from an. From a perspective of embracing acceptance moving forward, we tend to look back on if I drop the rope, whatever feeling I'm stuck with, which oftentimes is when you're in. When we're thinking about acceptance and radical acceptance because we're desperately seeking some sort of relief, then dropping the rope feels scary. Because if I drop the rope, am I stuck here forever?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Am I stuck in this feeling forever? Which is something that many of us with OCD struggle with the discomfort in the moment and the. The belief that those feelings will never shift into something different.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You know, a couple other things I think that are important to mention is if I accept this as a reality, I may start to turn into whatever my intrusive thoughts are. Again, we're not accepting OCD as a reality, but we can accept OCD having OCD as a disorder as our reality. Acceptance is believing that you may be capable of your intrusive thoughts feelings, which I think is where a lot of people with taboo intrusive thoughts make it stuck. We hear the. The famous maybe I am, maybe I'm not, which does not work for everybody. In fact, makes things worse for people sometimes with taboo intrusive thoughts, because they just cannot even maybe the fact that they're a pedophile, you know, want to engage in incest or bestiality. So acceptance can become resistance for them. This and acceptance makes me weak. I think this also goes with the surrender piece. I want to keep fighting. If I surrender, it makes me weak and vulnerable to the content. And then lastly, accepting means I'm okay with the content and I refuse to be. Now, of course, when we're thinking about OCD and OCD recovery and moving toward a degree of uncertainty or irrelevance. We want to get to a point where we're okay with the okay with the content, but we don't mean okay in the way I think that it's presented sometimes alongside acceptance. Okay with the content means I'm okay that it's there and I can see it as irrelevant, not I am okay and I approve of it, which may mean I'm capable of it. And I think these. These little nuances are so important. And that's why I felt like it was important to do this today, because we do see this overarching idea of acceptance. And if we're not digging into the nuance, this is where we lose a lot of people who are going to choose resistance over acceptance.

[A]

Yes. V. It's accepting the ocd, not accepting the content.

[B]

Correct.

[A]

Yeah. Or accepting you're having that content, but you're not accepting the content as true.

[B]

Correct.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

For me, I think what works. For me, what works is using acceptance as a way to accept the reality of ocd. It doesn't always work with the content that I have. And I think that's important to mention because I think people get lost in that when we're talking about real event OCD health and health anxiety. Taboo, intrusive thoughts. When your physical symptoms are high and your insight is low. When I'm in that state of mind, there's no way I can practice acceptance. I can barely accept that it's ocd, so how am I going to be able to accept the content? So a good starting place is okay. How do I practice acceptance? That this experience I'm having has happened before? I can recognize my compulsions, I can rec and I can choose to accept. I don't necessarily have to believe it, but acceptance is a choice, too.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

That we can practice and get better at, especially when we're in the throes of it and we have really low insight.

[A]

Yeah, exactly. I mean, it's a skill that develops over time and it gets easier and easier to accept. And the more you do, the. The more confidence you have in that. Yeah. This is ocd. Again, I don't need to buy into this, but I accept my brain's doing it and it can do whatever it needs to and eventually it will go away. But, yeah, first that's really hard to do because you have no reference points that this is going to work or have any effect or, you know.

[B]

Well, and again, and I think it's it's going to always come back to. We tend to believe whatever feeling we're having in the moment is going to be the feeling we have for life.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And the acceptance and radical acceptance very much challenges that in a way of you can have this feeling and you can take a step forward. And when we talk about being stuck with ocd. I did a class on shame yesterday and we talked about what shame feels like. And there were, there was a lot of mentioning of being stuck feel. I like being catatonic almost. I cannot get up, I cannot move. And I think with ocd, the challenge with acceptance is I feel doom, despair, disgust, whatever feeling is happening, shame and guilt. But I can get up and move. And it's so important to get up and move. And I think, like you said, practicing that acceptance. And we'll get into radical acceptance of this is where I'm at now. But I can still take a step forward. I don't necessarily like the phrase go live your life because that I. And I, I appreciate it. I'm not saying I don't, but it. Sometimes people can't. But what they can do is they can get up and go brush their teeth or walk outside and feel the wind on their, on their cheek or feel the sun on their shoulders. That is taking a step forward. You know, maybe, maybe they couldn't go to work that day, so they may feel shame. Well, I can't live my life because going to work is living my life. Okay. If you can't live your life, what can you do? Get up and take your dog for a walk? Can you, you know, just go out and, you know, let the sun hit your face? So yeah.

[A]

Yeah, you're right. Acceptance will, will vary greatly by insight. Right. And it can take some people a while to get to that place. And because part of acceptance, I think is distinguishing between this is OCD again versus no, no, this is real. I could be a people, for example, or. So. Yeah. When that insight's low, acceptance is hard to obtain. But so some of the work there is trying to increase insight.

[B]

Yes, yes. And self compassion. Oh. Which is very difficult for all of us. Yeah. So I think another important point to make is what, what are the misconceptions about acceptance that sometimes are subtly communicated? And, and I'm not talking about working with a therapist who can get into the psychoeducation around acceptance. I'm talking about scrolling googling things like that where people see acceptance as a solution, however, they don't understand the context of it. So again, this is coming directly from individuals with live experience. So it's often. Acceptance is often touted as a solution without context. So just practice acceptance. Just accept the thoughts. Just sit with the thoughts. Which of course terrifies people when they're having real event ocd and false memory and taboo intrusive thoughts. You know, what the hell does that even mean? You know, I can't sit with the thoughts. That's the whole point. If you don't have the skills to be able to do that. So I feel like without the context, sometimes that gives dangerous advice. I think it's dangerous for people, and here's why. Because now we're associating acceptance with feeling good. We're associating acceptance with relief, the finish line. Feeling peace, feeling positive. So I have to. And then the idea of, well, if I practice acceptance, I have to feel happy and peaceful, which of course, we all know having intrusive thoughts does not bring peace. It does not bring happiness. But can you practice acceptance and still have negative feelings? Absolutely. I think people don't know that because of all these misconceptions. And so one of the things that I hear the most is, is whenever we bring up the topic of acceptance and radical acceptance, I wish I could snapshot the zoom call. Because however many people's eyes roll because they hate acceptance, they hate the practice of acceptance. And it's. It's challenging. It feels daunting. People really just want to fight. They want to believe. If I just keep fighting, the thoughts will go away. Is this a misconception? Sure. But we can't help that that's what we want, that that's what we desire. And acceptance represents the opposite. Acceptance represents being present and especially radical acceptance. So it's really difficult, but also it's really important to know that practicing acceptance is embracing all that you are in that moment. And that includes negative feelings too. And that's okay. The goal does not have to be. I'm practicing acceptance, and now life is good and I'm peaceful. Absolutely not. Acceptance is painful. Acceptance is. Evokes deep negative emotions sometimes. And that's okay, too.

[A]

That's a. That's a really good point in terms of. Yeah. When I think about when I was sort of relapsing like four years ago to ride it out, I. When I got these huge. It was more panic style, but when I got these huge waves of anxiety, I had to practice acceptance that this is what my brain was doing. It was terrorizing me, flooding my body with everything. And I had to accept that. You do what you need to do, brain, body, you know, I'll sit here, I'm not going to react. So do what you need. It was like full on permission acceptance that from my brain was going to torture me with the, this anxiety. And eventually it passed. But acceptance for me there was. I suffered for another 20, 30 minutes in terms of high amounts of anxiety until it crashed in my body. So it wasn't pleasurable. I wasn't at peace, but I wasn't fighting it anymore. So in some way I was in pain, but I wasn't struggling is maybe the way to say it. So the pain. Yeah.

[B]

The fight is the strain.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And give and, but. And I think that's, that's what's so difficult. I think with OCD is the. It's so hard to resist the fight because it feels like the right thing to do. And so dropping the rope, we'll just continue to use that. Dropping the rope and not fighting now brings on all the things I discussed earlier. I am weak. I am surrendering it's approval. And so to your point, to continue to practice this practicing gives. Will give you the confidence and the self trust to know you can sit in the storm for 30 minutes, you can sit in the negative emotions and then perhaps an hour later you realize you're thinking about what you're going to be making for dinner. Or eight hours later you feel present with your spouse or your family or know, talking to a friend. Yeah, I, I think I with for me, acceptance. People often ask me, well what does acceptance mean for you? And I think acceptance is more of a daily practice for me versus radical acceptance. And usually I don't think about acceptance around OCD unless I'm feeling ocd. Let's just throw that out there. I don't wake up and have a normal mundane day and be like, let's practice acceptance. Like, I just don't. I just live life. I think for me acceptance is a practice when I wake up or when something happens. I mean I had a really tough day yesterday. I was struggling. I was in the haze for a while with OCD and I haven't had that in a really long time. And the resistance to want to believe it was OCD because it felt too real. And the complete denial that what I was doing were compulsions versus no, I just need to do this to solve it. And I fought for a good three hours. And then very much like you, the sur, the surrender, it was a surrender for me. Okay. I'm going to choose to believe that this is ocd. The consequences could be bad, because that's what my brain always says, but I'm going to actively practicing resisting. And the sadness flooded in and I was. I cried. That is not relief. That is not peace. But what it was is exactly what you said it was, stopping the fight. Which then gave me a little bit more of a perspective. Okay, what do I need to do to self care and move forward with my day? And can I move forward with my day? Because self care sometimes is. I'm not going to move forward with my day. And maybe it's avoidance, maybe it's not, but the only thing that matters at that point is my mental health. And so stopping the fight and accepting that this is ocd, despite not believing it was a way to move forward. I don't have to move forward perfectly or beautifully. It just is. Let's move forward and relieve some of that exhaustion of the strain of fighting.

[A]

Exactly that. And even if it was stopping was avoidance. So what, you figure it out tomorrow and you realize, okay, maybe that was avoidance in hindsight, and you learn from it, you know, but you did it once. It's not the end of the world. Right. If it was avoidance, and if it wasn't, then you made the right choice. You know, you rested.

[B]

Right. And I do think we tend to pathologize everything we do as compulsive, and I shouldn't do this. And there is no. There is no perfect way to handle ocd. There's no perfection when it comes to compulsions. Sometimes we do them and sometimes we choose them. But as Greenberg says, you know, there's agency around that choice. And if we're choosing it, that still means to some degree, we're in control.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah. True. Yeah. May not feel like we're in control, but we are.

[B]

Correct.

[A]

Yeah, Correct. Yeah. I did. I did a parent workshop today through my center, and one of the quotes I've got on one of the slides around, it's around anxiety, specifically, and. And learning. I guess it's actually about acceptance. The slide. But I. I didn't. I don't frame it as that. But the quote from Thich Nhat Hanh, which is, when we learn to suffer, we suffer much less. And for me, that's. That's acceptance. Like, because with ocd, we often don't want to suffer. We don't want these thoughts, we don't want these feelings. So to get rid of them, we do compulsions. But actually when we learn to suffer and say, yeah, okay, my brain's giving me this anxiety Disgust, whatever it is, I'm just gonna allow it for now. And it's giving me these horrible thoughts. They can be there. I don't like them, but they can be there. You know, that's acceptance. And then inevitably, because you're not doing compulsions, OCD comes down. It's not always that straightforward, but generally. So I just like that quote. When we learn to suffer, we suffer much less. For a long time. I didn't want to suffer, so I did tons of compulsions. And as a result, I suffered. You know, if we learn to suffer in the short term, we then suffer less.

[B]

And I think with ocd, it's. It's so counterintuitive. Just like you're saying, it's, I want to fight. The more I fight, the more likely I'll find the solution. And to push in to experiencing the discomfort and the panic that, I mean, that to me is. It's the heart. It's the most vulnerable. I think that's such a good word to use. I was trying to capture it. The vulnerability of being completely me in that moment and feeling whatever the discomfort is, including whatever emotion is accompanying it. That's what I struggle with the most, the acceptance of the emotion. I'm so afraid that the emotion will never end. And I think I hear a lot of people talk about that. The. When I'm feeling shame, when I'm feeling guilt, it's the doom of, I will be feeling this for the rest of my life. And so to your point, to learn how to experience that is what is actually going to help you move through it later. And the practice of acceptance very much is in what we were talking about, accepting that I'm feeling this way right now. But, gosh, like, just thinking about it makes me want to come to tears. Like, just the vulnerability of I have to sit in this. I have to sit in this right now in order for it to move through it. It is terrifying. It is dark. It's such a dark, isolating place that can bring up feelings of being undeserving and unworthy and just make you question everything around you because you're so scared that the darkness won't lift.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, 100%. And that's why, like, I think, you know, acceptance commitment therapy is used for people with chronic pain sometimes, you know, where medication has either helped partially or not helped at all. Some they'll look for other ways. And acceptance commitment therapy is one of those ways which you think it shouldn't help at all if someone's experiencing physical pain. You know, that's a medical thing that, you know, they. Meds or whatever. But with act, obviously I'm not an expert in ACT for physical pain, but what I imagine is it's. It's helping people not focus so much on the physical pain, except the presence of it, that they can't do anything about it or medications not working effectively. So acceptance and then refocusing and other skills to. To get their mind off it, but acceptance is a big part of that. And then they go parts of their day, maybe with less pain or they don't notice the pain, but it's still there.

[B]

In.

[A]

In the same way with ocd, acceptance is that I think it's different to physical pain. And acceptance probably does actually take away anxiety and thoughts over time. I can't say it does for physical pain, but yeah, it's. The more we focus on it and being there forever, the more it's going to stick around.

[B]

I definitely think in radical acceptance to. With the physical pain piece, the. When. When you're, you know, to not practice radical acceptance is to project into the future of it's always going to be this way versus I can accept what's here despite it being extremely painful. You know, stepping into. Stepping into the area of I'm radically accepting that this is how it is without projecting into the future and looking into the past of how it used to be. Such a difficult practice, but very. I had, just like you said, I. When my OCD was very much latched onto physical pain, which you just described, is exactly what I had to do. And then there would be times during the day that I wouldn't think about it. And then of course, I would think about it again and the pain would come back.

[A]

Exactly.

[B]

Yeah. But it did lessen my preoccupation with it.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Which in turn lessened the pain taking over everything about my life. It's interesting.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah. I feel this when I get. Not comparing myself to someone going through serious chronic pain, but with like, I have an IBS diagnosis, which most probably people listening to this podcast probably do. And. And sometimes I haven't had it for a while. Luckily, though, funny enough, as I start to talk about this, I'm feeling pain in my stomach, but I would get.

[B]

These, like, radical acceptance.

[A]

Yeah, I know. Say I would just get these real intense stomach cramps and they would come like waves and it would be horrible to the point where I'd feel weak or.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

The more I focused on it, the more I felt it, the worse my day was and the more I could accept that this sucks, this is hell, but it doesn't seem to be going away. Eventually my brain wandered off it and I would have a few hours of focusing on something and then as you say, I'd remember and the pain would instantly come back and then I'd do the same thing. It'd go away again. But when I didn't accept it, it would just be there, ruining my day.

[B]

You know, And I think that that in relation to OCD is let's use the groinl. For instance, if Philipson were here, he would be like, why do you always talk about the Gryll?

[A]

You know, when Freud was here, say the same thing.

[B]

When we desperately want the groinal to go away and we fight the groinal, it becomes stronger. But with ocd, the idea that I can have the groinal and not try to fight it as proof or disproof just creates so much fear and panic of what does this mean? Exactly the same thing that you're. It is the. When I stop fighting, I'm now not preoccupied with what my groin is doing. It is just taking the risk to practice that and not get pulled into all of the negative things we talked about. With acceptance, that means it's approval, that means it's surrender. I'm going to suffer the rest of my life. And I think this is, this is the resistance to acceptance. Exactly what we're talking about here. Yeah, I do want to get into if it's okay that I think it's important to talk about acceptance when it comes to taboo intrusive thoughts.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

Remembering we don't like to compare themes, but it is important to look at that those subsets of themes differently because of the degree of shame they experience. We all experience shame with ocd, but yes. So acceptance is difficult with ocd taboo, intrusive thoughts due to it, and thoughts, images, sensations, all of the above due to the intense fear, shame, self blame, and that the thoughts might be revealing one's true self leading to resistance rather than accept acceptance. And here's some of the things that I wanted to bring up, and this is coming again directly from individuals who live with ocd. And this, this taboo always comes up when we talk about acceptance. Kind of some unique things around acceptance and what makes people want to resist acceptance is the shame, the shame and the guilt. And I think again, believing that acceptance will mean that the shame you're okay with feeling shame and guilt. And I think that people with taboo intrusive thoughts really believe they cannot live with that shame. And Guilt because of what it might mean about them, that it's a risk. If I don't take these thoughts seriously and I accept and drop the rope. What if someone gets harmed? What if I snap and something happens? Acceptance is too risky. It's going to put my loved ones in danger. And then we can, you know, we can go into acceptance, but then the deserving piece gets in the way. I can't accept this because I can't even believe that I deserve happiness. I don't deserve to be alive. I don't deserve all the things I have. I don't deserve love. That deserving piece very much is a barrier to acceptance. I, I, I, I've heard this a lot from people as well, even, and even after effective treatment, the deserving piece. And of course, we know that's fueled by shame. The other piece is I don't want to practice acceptance. I want to feel disgust. I want to feel anxiety, I want to feel repulsion to prove the thoughts aren't true. To me, when we talk about taboo, intrusive thoughts, one of the things I feel like I see in people when they're talking about this is acceptance means dropping the rope. And then their, their entire being is exposed to too much vulnerability.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And that vulnerability leading to, I can't risk finding out that I'm a sexual deviant, that these thoughts may be even true. I can't risk even having other people find out that I would have these thoughts. So acceptance, it's almost like I need to hold tight to this and really fight harder because I refuse to accept. So there is this. I wrote here, like, fears that there's something deeper that needs to be resolved. This cannot be ocd. There's something deeper and I'm not willing to take the risk. And that's where acceptance can really become tricky. And especially when we're experiencing low insight.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I think it's so important to hear that. I think you did a podcast with Johnny on low insight.

[A]

Yeah, Yeah, I think I did. Yeah.

[B]

That was so good. I heard lots of great things about that, by the way. And I don't think that we talk about low insight enough and that lots of us have low insight. We're just used to hearing, if you have low insight, you can't be treated. That's not true. You know, for me, when I have low insight, I'm just, I just resist doing ERP because I'm scared. It's not ocd.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah. And from, from, from doing therapy perspective, like when I work with clients with Low insight. We can get them to higher insight. It just takes time.

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

You know, and we might be covering the same ground, knocking on the same doors, but eventually the message gets through and they start to take that risk and buy in that this is OCD and I can trust that it's OCD and do the work or, you know, we've not complete certainty, obviously, but, like, trust that this is. Obviously, I do as the therapist, but for them, you know, they. They may not completely trust this ocd, but they can get to it enough that they can do the work, but it just takes time. Because you're practicing. Exactly, yeah. Time and practice. Um, yes, it's definitely not a deal breaker.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And it could be also sometimes unpacking the beliefs behind it, like, I don't know, thinking about, like, what their religious beliefs are and what that says about their taboo, intrusive thoughts, because that's obviously going to make it harder to let go or their family upbringing or, you know, other impacts within the system, and they might be making it more sticky. Yeah. Yeah.

[B]

Well, let's talk about radical acceptance.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I think sometimes people and just want to remind the audience that this is a lived experience perspective and not a clinical accept perspective. I think people confuse the two and don't really understand radical acceptance. And to be fair, I don't think I did either until the last couple years and started to practice it. But I'll. I'll start with a definition, so the same way I started with acceptance. So the definition, it's a skill from dbt. So dialectical behavioral therapy, that means completely embracing and challenging facts of your reality with your whole being. It involves accepting the past and present situation fully without judgment. Radical acceptance, I feel, is the most terrifying possible form of acceptance when living with OCD and being in symptoms, because it. It feels like the epitome of being trapped. I am trapped in this moment and all I want to do is look to the past when it used to be better and look to the future, unfortunately, usually with doom, that my life is never going to be the same now that I've had this thought, now that I have this feeling, which many people often will say when they have kind of like that gut bomb of a theme, oh, no, it's never going to be the same. So with radical acceptance, I cannot practice radical acceptance, by the way, in that moment. And I've accepted that. And that's okay. I don't shame myself for that. But radical acceptance very often comes after my ability to accept what's going on. The Thing about radical acceptance is again. And then I just have a couple different points that. Where radical acceptance might be challenging for people with ocd, the thing about radical acceptance is it's embracing the present, even if it's painful. Embracing and accepting that that pain may not change. And without looking into the past and looking to the future, a lot of people feel like this is doom and despair. I can't accept that. I can't accept that I might be in pain for the rest of my life. But that's not what radical acceptance is. It's accepting the moment fully and present for what it is. Teaching yourself you can endure that and then eventually that. Eventually moving through that emotion. But you can't know that you can do that without fully embracing the moment. And I think that is what causes resistance for radical acceptance is the fear for people with ocd. This is never going to change. I will always be like that. And that's scary because being in the haze is one of the scariest places you can be. And people just want to fight to get out of it.

[A]

Yeah. Which is. Is a very normal human thing. Right. That. I think I said this today on the parent group as well, that when we. When we're struggling or in pain, it's normal to solve it, you know, in like fight or solve it. But. And it's the same here. But it's would. It's just a very counterintuitive solution. Which is not solving. Which is again, like the muddy, muddy puddle that I heard Alan Watts talk about once. Which was like the might. He said the mind is like a muddy puddle. It's best cleared by leaving it alone.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You know, if we keep putting our foot in the puddle, the mud's gonna keep stirring. It's keep being murky. And that's what we do with rumination. We ruminate and our brain gets murdered. Murky and muddy. And we can't see the truth or the answer. And we keep ruminating to try and make the puddle clearer, but we're just making it worse and worse and worse. And the solution is step back and leave it alone. And then there's skills to practice that. But yeah.

[B]

Yeah. And letting the muddy water clear involves silence and patience, which are two virtues that people with OCD don't have when it comes to needing it to go away. I love Alan Watts. A couple things I want to point out as far as radical acceptance. And then. So one of the things I think is a hindrance is the doom and despair feeling. So, you know. And I tend to Go back to that gut bomb. That gut bomb feeling of, you know, the moment you have one of those thoughts or feelings, and it's doom and despair. Such a dark place. Radical acceptance. You know, I put a radical acceptance really can't. Can't land with you. Which is why I was saying I can't practice it earlier when the inner narrative of doom is kind of screaming at you. So it's okay to. To not practice that then. But what. What we're thinking is, this is forever. I'll never get better. But practicing radical acceptance for me is getting some space from that feeling. And what brings the freedom for me. And I know it feels kind of juxtaposed to say radical acceptance is freedom, but what brings the feeling is to sit with it again. I have fear of being vulnerable. So to sit with that horrible feeling and remind myself, we've been here before, but how we need to move through this is exactly what you said, Stu, to drop the rope. Because the more I fight, the bigger it's going to get. So, like I shared with you yesterday, after a few hours, I had to surrender and say, okay, this is. This is how I'm going to feel today. I don't know when this is going to pass, but I can move forward in my day. At that point, everything clears. The muddy water. Everything clears. And now I can refocus. What am I going to do now? There's freedom in that. There's freedom in seeing exactly what's happening right now and not judging or having to change it because eventually it will naturally change on its own. Right?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And I think that's one of the things that we are scared of with OCD is that it never will. But the practice of being able to sit, be vulnerable in the feelings, no matter how hard it is as. And how long it takes. Like you said when you were experiencing that, you would sit there sometimes for 30 minutes and feel that. That's terrifying. I want this feeling to be gone right now. But the more you practice sitting in it, the more you will see, even if it just lessens a little, or if it lessens, then comes back and lessens and come back. It's the practice piece. Yeah. And then how OCD's discomfort prevents us from practicing radical. Practicing radical acceptance. But I. I do think we just actually answer that. And the other question. Why do people have a difficult time? I mean, I think 1. You know, most of the reasons why people have a difficult time with radical acceptance is we have an. It's the urgency to need to normalize because to not be able to normalize is to feel trapped in the feeling forever. Inability to sit with discomfort, fear that things will never be the same. So with radical acceptance, that's again projecting into the future. And when we're projecting into the future, we're fighting in the moment. Inability to embrace the feelings aren't permanent. And then fears of being trapped in the state of mind. If you have a core fear of being trapped, this is where it can be extremely tough and really tough and sitting in that vulnerability. I wrote down some stuff about how the acceptance versus radical acceptance. So I think a lot of people get confused about the difference and then I can share kind of what it means. To me, acceptance involves recognizing and acknowledging facts without necessarily approving them. While radical acceptance involves a complete, non judgmental and full acceptance of reality with your mind, heart and body acceptance. Even for events or situations that are distressing and uncontrollable, radical acceptance does not mean agreeing with or, or condoning a situation, but rather letting go of the struggle against the reality to reduce suffering and make progress. So one of the things I'll share is a way that I was able to embrace what radical acceptance means to me is looking at dealing with a difficult person in your life that just has to be in your life. Let's take for instance, like a family member, you know, or a family friend that you see every month, or you see every week at Sunday dinner. And every time you are meeting with this person or every time you're around this person, you are continually getting frustrated by their complaining or about, about nitpicking or you know, whatever it is that bugs you. And so you leave frustrated every time radical acceptance is approaching that situation and seeing that person for exactly who they are, knowing exactly how it's going to be, letting go of their, the need for them to change to make you feel better in a non judgmental way. I'm going to accept being around this person for exactly what they're going to say, as you typically can predict. And me not judging, not reacting, but having that whole body experience where they're at and letting go of the struggle of them needing to change. That was where I really embraced radical acceptance. Because now I'm fully present in the moment and I can choose how I'm impacted, even in the discomfort of someone else that normally would kind of destabilize me. And so to be able to understand it in that way helped me to see radical acceptance in everyday life when I feel destabilized or discomfort, especially with ocd.

[A]

Yeah, that's a really good point. Yeah. Because when we accept the situation as it is, then we can think about what we can control, you know, and how we can change. Because, yeah, we can't. Can't necessarily control OCD in the short term, but we can control things we do, which might then eventually goes against the thing you've just shared, but, like change the OCD in the future because we. But then sometimes if we change the situation, that family member might change and that they know they can't say certain things to you anymore, and then they leave you alone. And then in some way that's improved the situation, even though it might not have changed them at their core. In some, it's changed your suffering or your, you know, them winding you up.

[B]

I look at radical acceptance as having a pair of eyes that sees the world exactly for where it is and what it is in this moment and resisting the need to change whatever the circumstance is and make decisions from that instead of what should have been or what might be. And with, especially with ocd, letting go of the whatever's happening now is going to be whatever is forever. And I think. One last point. I think acceptance and radical acceptance can both be hard. When individuals realize that OCD is going to be present with us for the rest of our lives, maybe we're not symptomatic and suffering for the rest of our lives, and it's important to make that point. But that OCD can show up again. OCD symptoms can show up. And I think people struggle with the acceptance and radical acceptance of that because it's scary and we remember the suffering. And so to think that we might suffer again again is. It's vulnerable and we want to be in control of that. And so I just wanted to say to. To the listeners of this, Acceptance is hard. Acceptance is painful. It's challenging. It is not the finish line. It's not. It doesn't have to be roses and unicorns. Acceptance is whatever it is to you. And just like Stu said earlier, it is something to be practiced. It is fluid and it will likely change over time as you get deeper and farther into your recovery. But keep practicing.

[A]

Yeah, exactly that.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

It takes time. Brilliant. Thank you so much for coming on talking about this topic. It's a pleasure as always.

[B]

Of course, this is such an important topic that I think we need a lot of lived experience, input in on of the real challenges of acceptance and radical acceptance. So thank you so much for having me. And I really hope it resonated with people if they're struggling in the struggle of acceptance.

[A]

Thank you for listening to this week's podcast and thank you to our patrons who helped make this episode possible. And if you would like to find out more about Patreon and the rewards and benefits, then there will be a link in the episode description. If you enjoy the OCD Stories podcast and would like to support us, please subscribe and rate the show wherever you listen to the podcast. And thank you to NOCD for supporting our work. If you want to find out more about nocd, you can click the link in the episode description and quick disclaimer Guys, this podcast is not therapy. It is not a replacement for therapy. Please seek treatment from a trained professional and until we speak. Take care.

[B]

Sam.