The OCD Stories Podcast – Episode #518

Title: Jonny Say and Stuart Ralph Role-Play a Key ACT Skill for Rumination
Released: December 28, 2025
Host: Stuart Ralph
Guest: Jonny Say (UK-based therapist, co-director at the Integrative Center for OCD Therapy)

Episode Overview

This episode offers listeners a deep dive into practical Acceptance and Commitment Therapy (ACT) strategies for managing rumination in OCD. Host Stuart Ralph is joined by therapist Jonny Say for a detailed breakdown and roleplay of essential ACT skills, with a particular focus on "Dropping Anchor" and the exercise "Dipping In and Out of the Stream." The episode stands out with its real-time demonstration, making complex therapeutic skills tangible and relatable for listeners.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Reflections & Introduction to ACT in OCD ([00:00]–[04:48])

• Jonny expresses gratitude for the podcast’s 10-year anniversary episode, underscoring the impact of The OCD Stories community ([02:05]).
• Stuart introduces Jonny and the purpose of their collaboration: to make ACT skills accessible for listeners, not just therapists.
• ACT, as practiced by both Stuart and Jonny, forms a backbone of their therapeutic approach to OCD.

2. Dropping Anchor: A Core ACT Skill ([04:48]–[18:14])

The Metaphor & Rationale ([04:52]–[07:40])

• Stuart explains the "Dropping Anchor" metaphor: just as sailors drop anchor to stay grounded during a storm, we can anchor ourselves during emotional storms to avoid unhelpful reactions or compulsions.
  • “If you’re a sailor and you come into shore, and you can’t dock, you drop an anchor… and much like an emotional storm, that can carry us away.”—Stuart [05:11]

The ACE Framework ([07:44]–[12:39])

• ACE stands for:
  • Acknowledge your thoughts and feelings (or “notice and name” them).
  • Connect with your body (by moving, noticing sensations).
  • Engage with the world around you (with your senses, e.g., naming details in the environment).
• Stuart shares practical ways to adapt "Dropping Anchor" for individuals, including children.
• Key tip: Go beyond just naming objects—notice specific details to break tunnel vision during anxiety.

Reflection on Progression and Application ([12:39]–[18:14])

• Jonny explains how Dropping Anchor is taught in stages, from elaborate practice to quick, on-the-go application.
• It's not a "grounding exercise" in the compulsive sense; the function is not to eliminate distress but to stop compulsions and move towards values.
• “Anything can be compulsive, depending on the function… The key with Dropping Anchor is we’re not trying to get rid of intrusive thoughts.”—Jonny [14:30]
• They emphasize the need to adapt the tool to personal OCD patterns and warn against compulsive overuse.

3. Practical Integration with Exposure and Response Prevention ([18:14]–[21:55])

• Both integrate Dropping Anchor with ERP, using the metaphor of practicing in calm “weather” before being ready to apply skills in emotional “storms.”
• Goal: Frequent, brief practice to build automaticity and adaptiveness.

4. Dipping In and Out of the Stream: Targeting Rumination ([21:55]–[36:43])

Introduction to the Exercise ([22:27]–[24:55])

• Jonny introduces “Dipping In and Out of the Stream” as a practice specifically for unhooking from mental compulsions.
• The metaphor: Rumination is a stream—sometimes we get swept away, but this practice trains stepping onto the riverbank (refocusing).

Guided Roleplay & Demonstration ([24:55]–[36:43])

• Jonny guides Stuart (as a "client") through:
  1. Connecting to values and workability (reminding oneself why change is important).
  2. Intentionally activating mental compulsions (ruminating on a harm OCD theme) for ~20 seconds.
  3. Using Dropping Anchor to step back: noticing thoughts, naming emotions/urges, connecting with the body, engaging with surroundings.
  4. Repeating this cycle multiple times, reducing the steps as skills improve.
• Stuart shares his immediate experience:
  • “I found it hard to let go. It did get definitely easier by the last round… There were moments where I was able to really engage in what we were doing and temporarily let go of what I was ruminating on.”—Stuart [34:46]
• Jonny clarifies that the goal isn’t to feel calm, but to build flexible attention and acceptance: “We’re trying to get this distance from the intrusive thoughts and this ability to let go of compulsions and then this ability to have a flexible attention…” [36:12]

5. Clinical Insights & Broader Context ([36:43]–[49:12])

• Jonny explains the origins of the Dipping In and Out exercise, citing Russ Harris’s adaptation from Francisco Ruiz’s work and influences from Metacognitive Therapy ([37:00]).
• Emphasizes how this tool accelerates the development of “diffusion”—the skill of stepping back from thoughts—especially for clients already experienced with ERP.
• Recognizes that for clients in continual rumination, groundwork is needed before using this practice.
• Practice can begin with non-OCD worries and scale up to obsessions.
• Strategies include checking in with clients’ presence/engagement and using “presentness scales” (e.g., rating how present they felt after each cycle).

6. Practice, Repetition, and Integration ([49:12]–[53:11])

• ACT skills require repetition and embedding into daily routines, not just theoretical discussion or metaphors.
• Many therapists mistakenly rely only on explanations or one-off exercises—instead, repeated practice is essential for ACT to become “unconscious competence.”
  • “The power in ACT is repetition… We want to progress through that with ACT skills so that they become this automatic thing…”—Jonny [53:06]
• Jonny mentions guided practices for listeners on his YouTube channel.

7. Final Reflections & Practical Guidance ([53:11]–[55:31])

• Stuart and Jonny reiterate the necessity of integrating ACT and ERP for effective OCD treatment.
• They discuss the inclusion of self-compassion and personalizing the approach for each client.

Notable Quotes & Moments

• “If we can learn to see our thoughts as just thoughts… we get to the truth which is it's a thought, it's a feeling that is happening versus we buy into the story.”—Stuart [08:21]
• “Anything can be compulsive, depending on the function… the key with Dropping Anchor is we’re not trying to get rid of intrusive thoughts.”—Jonny [14:30]
• “You have to be able to do that in 5 seconds, 10 seconds… as you face difficult intrusive thoughts and feelings in your life…”—Jonny [20:10]
• “This is a tool where we only ever will tell you to do compulsions on purpose in this tool. Everywhere else we’re trying to reduce them.”—Jonny [24:44]
• “There were moments where I was able to really engage in what we were doing and temporarily let go of what I was ruminating on.”—Stuart [34:46]
• “We’re trying to get this distance from the intrusive thoughts and this ability to let go of compulsions and then this ability to have a flexible attention that’s more under our control…”—Jonny [36:12]
• “The power in ACT is repetition… We want to progress through that with ACT skills so that they become this automatic thing…”—Jonny [53:06]

Timestamps for Key Segments

| Timestamp | Segment Description | |-----------|---------------------| | [04:52] | Introduction of Dropping Anchor metaphor and rationale | | [07:44] | Breakdown of ACE skills (Acknowledge, Connect, Engage) | | [12:39] | How to progress Dropping Anchor and avoid compulsive misuse | | [21:55] | Setup for Dipping In and Out of the Stream exercise | | [24:55] | Start of roleplay: Jonny guides Stuart through the exercise | | [34:46] | Stuart’s reflection on the experience, challenges letting go of rumination | | [36:12] | Jonny clarifies the purpose: acceptance, attention flexibility | | [37:00] | Historical context and evolution of Dipping In and Out of the Stream | | [49:12] | Importance of repetition; ACT as skill, not just theory | | [53:06] | Final thoughts on embedding ACT skills through practice |

Further Resources (linked/referenced in episode)

• Russ Harris's Dropping Anchor resources (videos, PDFs, audio guides)
• Jonny Say’s YouTube Channel: OCD Skills Playlist (for practical guided exercises)
• Metacognitive Therapy and work by Francisco Ruiz
• Previous episode with client Jack (example of building skills between sessions)

Concluding Takeaways

• ACT skills like Dropping Anchor and Dipping In and Out of the Stream are powerful tools for OCD, especially for tackling rumination and mental compulsions.
• These are not “distraction” or “grounding” exercises, but intentional practices for accepting thoughts and redirecting action in line with personal values.
• Progress comes from regular, repeated practice—skills eventually become automatic and useful during real-life triggers.
• Listeners are encouraged to start slow, practice daily, and check in on their own process, always considering personal function rather than rote application.
• Both hosts stress: These exercises are not therapy or a replacement for professional guidance; seek out qualified therapists for support.

This detailed episode summary is intended to equip listeners with practical understanding and key insights, serving as a practical guide and refresher for both new and returning members of The OCD Stories community.