Ray Kolke: Rumination by the Numbers (RBTN) as a tool for dealing with rumination (#524)

Summary

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Podcast Summary: The OCD Stories – Episode #524

Title: Ray Kolke: Rumination by the Numbers (RBTN) as a tool for dealing with rumination
Host: Stuart Ralph
Guest: Ray Kolke, Licensed Mental Health Counselor
Release Date: February 8, 2026

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Overview

In this engaging episode of The OCD Stories, host Stuart Ralph welcomes Ray Kolke, a licensed counselor well-known for his unique energy, humor, and unconventional approach to OCD and rumination. Ray shares his personal and professional journey, explains why he doesn’t focus on feelings at the start of sessions, and dives into his innovative tool—Rumination by the Numbers (RBTN)—for managing OCD-related rumination. The conversation is thought-provoking, playful, and offers concrete takeaways for both therapists and those dealing with OCD.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Ray Kolke’s Unconventional Path to Therapy

• [02:31] Ray describes entering the therapy world after diverse careers in music, software, and home renovation. Personal family struggles (including his daughter's mental health and other life crises) led him into a DBT peer parenting group and, ultimately, a counseling master’s program.
• Notable quote:

  “This was never in my scope of planning... all these things have really helped prepare me to be able to work with people in a beautiful way.” – Ray Kolke [03:20]

• Ray’s openness about personal adversity shapes his empathetic, resilient approach with clients.

2. The Benefits of a Nomadic, Playful Lifestyle

• Ray spends half the year working remotely from a travel trailer. He notes that being in beautiful, ever-changing environments feeds his creativity, mirroring the spontaneity he values from his jazz/music background ([07:09–09:24]).
• Metaphor: Therapy is like jazz—unpredictable, improvisational, but rewarding.

3. Rethinking Emotions in Therapy

• [09:36] Ray purposefully challenges clients’ expectations by not opening with “How are you feeling?” He argues that emotions are “stupid” as a guide for living because they’re byproducts of stimuli—not reliable navigation tools.
  • “Why the heck would I rest my wellbeing on something so fickle?” – Ray Kolke [10:30]
  • Instead, he focuses on agency, learning, and observable action, not emotional checking.
• Stuart compares this to ACT metaphors (using values as stars on a stormy sea rather than being lost in emotional waves) ([14:05–15:05]).

4. Introduction to Rumination & Its Challenges

• [16:56] Ray defines rumination as an endless mental loop where people attempt to use logic to solve an unresolvable (often meaningless) thought, leading nowhere. OCD sufferers are “hyper meaning making machines,” attaching value and self-worth to random thoughts ([16:56]).
  • “You know it’s rumination because they don’t come to a resolution and aren’t able to move on.” – Ray Kolke [18:54]
• The moment clients hesitate or get defensive over an intrusion, they start losing to OCD’s “gateway thoughts” (“what ifs”), reinforcing the cycle ([21:41]).

5. Rumination by the Numbers (RBTN): Concept and Practice

a. Origins and Theory

• Stemming from his background in education, Ray created RBTN as a simple, pragmatic way for clients to marginalize rumination themes and practice quick disengagement ([19:15–23:10]).
• He draws on ACT, DBT (“STOP” skill), and ERP while personifying OCD (e.g., “Cato” from Pink Panther).

b. Practical Steps

• Session 8+ Implementation: Not introduced before foundational work is complete.
• [28:07] RBTN Structure
  1. Client lists all current rumination themes (2-12 is ideal).
  2. Each theme is randomly assigned a number; randomness is crucial—there is no hierarchy ([29:08]).
  3. Memorize theme-number pairs over a week (practice for habituation—even the act of naming can be a mini-exposure).
  4. When a rumination or intrusive thought arises, the client quickly labels it with its number (“That’s a number three”).
  5. “Number one” is always “miscellaneous/open,” the catch-all for ambiguous or new intrusions.
  6. The speed of number assignment is critical—when clients hesitate, OCD gains ground ([32:07]).
  7. Over time, numbers are combined and reassigned for continued detachment.
• Process Purpose:
  • Marginalize the content—render it irrelevant.
  • Avoid getting stuck in content or value judgments.
  • Foster playfulness and agency in response to intrusion.

Quotes:

“When we label things... we’re marginalizing the content.” – Ray Kolke [31:06]
“If it’s irrelevant, let’s treat it as irrelevant... when you hesitate, you start to lose.” – Ray Kolke [32:19]

c. Self-Coaching Model

• Clients practice gentle, self-coaching talk during labeling (“That’s just a number three... whether it’s real or not, I’m accepting and moving on”) ([33:51–34:27]).

d. Measuring Progress (Without Compulsions)

• Ray asks clients to report (off the cuff, no daily tracking to avoid compulsions) on:
  • Frequency of each theme (now discussed purely as numbers).
  • Intensity.
  • Length of Time Ruminating (LTR) – both longest and shortest incidents ([34:33–38:13]).
  • Progress is usually marked by rapid reduction in average rumination time.
  • Ray underscores the importance of “frequency of opportunities for growth” (FOGs). The more opportunities to practice, the more progress ([36:49]).

“You need the FOG to happen so you can grow—without the fog, you don’t grow.” – Ray Kolke [36:25]

e. Playful Adaptations and Flexibility

• Some therapists Ray knows turned the list into a “taco menu”—making the approach even more playful and engaging ([41:47–42:49]).
• The practice is not about precision but about fostering irrelevance and detachment.

“The secret: I don’t care if they get the number right—it’s just assigning it irrelevance and moving on.” – Ray Kolke [39:50]

6. Values, Agency, and Play

• Ray stresses personal agency and playfulness as key tools for both therapy and living. He encourages choosing agency over victimhood and not letting intrusive thoughts define identity.

“I think the playful nature can be such an asset... can I choose to laugh at myself? It really makes the journey way better.” – Ray Kolke [49:17]

• A growth mindset means seeing every intrusive thought as practice for building resilience.

7. Memorable Life Lessons & Closing Reflections

Phone call to his 20-year-old self:

• “You didn’t die young. And isn’t life just so fun?... Avoid the tantrums,” Ray improvises. He frames most adult distress as an “adult tantrum” over not getting outcomes we want, advocating instead for acceptance and agency. ([44:28–45:54])

Billboard Quote:

• “Because sometimes life sucks. That’s what will be on my billboard... It’s going to suck at times. To me that’s hopeful, because it’s not pretending like it’s not going to suck.” – Ray Kolke [46:03]

Gratitude:

• Ray thanks Stuart, the podcast, and the wider OCD community, noting how stories and expertise provide hope, learning, and connection for countless listeners ([46:43–48:09]).

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On not asking about feelings:

  “I never ask, ‘How are you doing today?’... They have a checking problem; it’s like giving alcohol to an alcoholic. I want to know—what are they learning?...” – Ray Kolke [13:20]

• On compulsions in RBTN:

  “I haven’t seen any compulsions about (RBTN) in the way I’ve delivered it... They really honestly don’t need all the rest of the numbers. It just becomes irrelevant.” – Ray Kolke [41:18]

• On embracing discomfort:

  “Clean pain is just the pain. Dirty pain is all the narrative above that we add.” – Ray Kolke [24:37]

• On values, not emotions, as a compass:

  “We’re not going to navigate by the storm, we’re going to navigate by a fixed point, like the stars—our values.” – Stuart Ralph [14:05]

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Key Timestamps for Important Segments

• 04:40 – The role of difficult life events in shaping Ray’s therapy style.
• 09:36 – Why Ray doesn’t ask clients about feelings in session.
• 16:56 – Defining rumination and its role in OCD.
• 19:15 – Origins of “Rumination by the Numbers.”
• 28:07 – Step-by-step explanation of the RBTN tool.
• 31:06–32:19 – Importance of marginalizing OCD themes and acting quickly.
• 34:33 – Measuring progress & frequency of intrusive thoughts (“FOGs”).
• 39:50 – The true purpose of numerical labeling.
• 41:47 – Playful adaptations (e.g., the taco menu).
• 44:28 – Advice Ray would give his younger self.
• 46:03 – Ray’s Billboard: “Because sometimes life sucks.”

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Tone, Energy & Takeaways

Ray Kolke’s style blends humor, irreverence, and deep warmth. His RBTN approach offers both a practical, skills-based intervention and a playful, non-pathologizing attitude toward OCD thoughts and rumination. The episode is full of metaphors (music, play, weather), memorable quotes, and real-world wisdom, making it both insightful for clinicians and accessible for individuals struggling with OCD.

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For Further Learning

Ray references foundational OCD resources and podcast episodes (e.g., episodes featuring Grayson, Phillipson, Greenberg, Wilson, Harris) as core learning tools for clients, reinforcing the importance of psychoeducation and agency in the recovery journey.

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This episode is a must-listen for anyone looking for a fresh, hopeful, and empowering way to approach intrusive thoughts and rumination in OCD.

Transcript

[A]

You're listening to the OCD Stories podcast hosted by me, Stuart Ralph. The OCD Stories is a podcast dedicated to raising awareness and understanding around obsessive compulsive symptoms. I do this for interviewing inspired therapists, psychologists and people who have experienced OCD. Welcome to the OCD stories and welcome to episode 524 of the podcast. And in this one I got on Ray Kolk. Ray is a licensed mental health counselor who works with people affected by OCD and anxiety. I met Ray a couple years ago at the ISTF conference in Orlando. It was great to meet him and we got to have lunch with a few others as well. So really funny guy, you might find he inserts his name in a lot of words throughout this. He has really cool energy. So I hope you find this episode enjoyable. And in particular we talk about his background as a therapist, why he doesn't ask his clients how they are feeling. At the start of session he discusses in more detail, not focusing on feelings. Then we go into rumination, the rumination practice he's developed this tool he calls Rumination by the Numbers. He breaks down this tool and much more. And thanks to our podcast partners. Nocd. If OCD is interfering with your life, NOCD can help their licensed therapists specialise in exposure and response prevention therapy, the most proven therapy for OCD with an OCD effective treatment that is 100% virtual is available for children and adults with OCD and most members can get started within seven days on average. No hassle, just real science backed help and support between sessions. Begin your [e-mail] or I'll put the link in the episode description. So thank you to Ray for his time, personality and energy. I appreciate it and of course thank you to you guys as always for listening. It means a lot. Without further ado, here is Ray. Welcome to the podcast, Ray.

[B]

Well, thank you. Thank you, Stu.

[A]

Yeah, it's good to have you on and Obviously we met 2024 at the Florida ISDF conference.

[B]

True.

[A]

Yeah. Cool. So it's good to meet you there and obviously good to have you on the podcast now. So. Yeah, you know, for those getting to know you right now, you know, who are you, what do you do and obviously why treat ocd?

[B]

Wow, that's, that's a big question. So the first of all, I'm in career number four, so this was never in my scope of planning, never scope of planning of two year plan, five year plan or whatever plan. It was never even on the horizon. And first, first and foremost, most I went into the public education was band and orchestra director, also jazz performance degree. And so I love the spontaneity, which is really great. And I get a lot of that actually and in how I work with clients because we deal with unexpected things that come up all the time. And then career number two, software company. I kind of tagged along on some people's really who are really brilliant and hardworking and I learned a lot in there and then did work done houses for the third career. And then that time we also had. My wife and I also had a kiddo that was all of a sudden suffering and we weren't used to that. This is like, oh my gosh, this is new. We've never seen this before. What is happening? And so they were dealing with suicidal ideation and self harming. And my wife and I found ourselves in a. In DBT peer parenting groups. And also during that time, I got rear ended twice. And that was the first time, like my body hadn't like just jumped back and healed itself. And I came back from being out in the woods one day and my wife, who had been talking to our daughter's therapist, said, hey, Ray would be a good therapist. And I'm like, you know what? I'm gonna go take a shower and. Because I just got back in and. And like two months later I was in a master's program. So this was totally out of any scope. And it's like all. And then as it has come together, so I realized that all these things have really helped prepare me to be able to work with people in a beautiful way and help. Help people. So it's really been great.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah, I agree. I think sometimes for therapists, life experience is a really important factor to make a good therapist. I don't think it's crucial. I think you can go straight from uni, but I think it can really add something.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. And your. Was it your daughter? The one that was struggling? Was that OCD or was that something?

[B]

No.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. And so that. And that was. That was a really hard time too. And you know, it seems like it. It seems like you get multiple things that stack at the same time. So we had also like lost our dream home like just a few years prior. And then we're also. We're dealing with another kiddo that needed emergency brain surgery. And so it's like you go, you know, it's like you. Life throws stuff. And so learning how. How to deal with those in a healthy way has really, to me, you know, paid off. And then being Able to work with clients through their struggles because it's, it doesn't stop, you know, whether it's OCD or whether it's this tragedy that's going to happen or some unfortunate circumstances.

[A]

True, Absolutely. And with the getting rear ended twice. When you say it was the first time your body didn't heal yourself, do you mean physically or like emotionally?

[B]

I mean physically. Yeah. So it, yeah. And took a long time. So. But anyway, it's. It's just, it's what it is. It's a new ray, I like to say, new reality. I throw my name into things that aren't there, you know, Ridiculous. Don't make me repeat myself. So. So this, it's part of the, you know, so part of when I'm working with people too is I start with like violating people's expectations from like right off the get go because they're not expecting this. They're not expecting an old, white, toxic, privileged male to be like their answer to what they've been dealing with. And then I show up and so. And then I got this quirky sense of humor.

[A]

So. And also, I mean, just to add more color to your story, you now, as you said you spent six months of the year traveling in a camper van and working remotely with clients while you're on the road.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah. So it's actually not a camper van, although that sounds cool. It's. It's a travel trailer, so we're pulling it.

[A]

Okay. Yeah. Okay. Just one last question on that. So where in the last few years while you've been traveling around and working, where's been the best place you've done a session, like a therapy session? Because I imagine you get some good views and stuff while you're.

[B]

Well, I think, I think Lake Powell. In. Lake Powell in, in the northern, Northern Arizona area. It was just like gorgeous. So it's like December and like nobody's there during that time. It was just like I. Or being out in, you know, so many places because of. We have really good Internet connectivity that we've figured out over the last few years and have better access to. I mean, we can just be out in just absolutely gorgeous places and just like I just step out the door and I'm like. And then I'm going back into session and it's so cool. It just really is. It just. Yeah, yeah. Love it.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But did you think it adds something to your sessions? Like you're more maybe relaxed or inspired or.

[B]

You know, that's an interesting question. I've Never thought about it that way. So. So, you know, I'm. I imagine. I imagine, you know, being out with this frame of mind. So when we're traveling where I'm also. There's a lot of exp. I haven't even thought about this, but there is a lot of this expectation in exploring, like, what's next around the corner. Right. So I'm probably, as a therapist, I'm probably getting a lot of dopamine hits. It's like, like, oh, this is fun. This is good. Right. And so then this goes along too, with my jazz and jazz background. It's like that spontaneity is. Is just feeds me. Right. And. Because I don't know what the outcome's going to be, but it's sure going to be fun figuring it out.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, I like that. Well, that's, as you say, a good metaphor for therapy. Right. Because you. We don't really know the outcome, but let's figure it out and play whatever notes we need to. To make the music.

[B]

Right. Right. And that's one of the biggest hurdles that clients come in with, right. Is they. They have this outcome picture that they want. Right. And then. And. And so much of it is related to. To, like, their feelings and emotions and how, in their interpretation, how they feel about themselves. Because there's. There are these accusations that happen, especially internally when we're talking about rumination. And then. And then I'm coming along and I'm blowing that apart with going, well, first of all, your emotions are stupid. And then they're like, what are you talking about? Because I'm the first person that's ever, like, said that to them. And I go, whoa, whoa. Before you start, like, getting all defensive, let's break this down. Hmm. And. And so I'm doing this in session, in session one, because what I. What I'm wanting to do here is break apart how they're approaching and how they're viewing things so that we can start to move in a different way. And, and so, you know, explaining to them that their emotions are simply a response to stimulus. That's all they are. They're byproducts. And then unfortunately, with. With at least our society and probably you guys over there, is there's this hyper. Hyper connectivity. Maybe this is not the right phrasing to who I am are like my feelings. Well, why the heck would I rest my. Well being on something so fickle. It. That's a byproduct, you know, this idea of just being happy. Oh, I want to Be happy. I've got. You want to be a byproduct. Well, that sounds great. Those don't last long. Right. So. So anyway, I don't know how I got on that. Got off on that little bit of a tangent, but that's. That's kind of where I start with early on is just. Right. And. And this totally already starts to violate their expectation. Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. What am I trying to say? Yeah, like you say you're violating their expectation. It's almost like shocking them because sometimes that can. You can really crack through layers of your years of education or teaching.

[B]

Right. And this all goes along in with like the. The inhibitory learning model. Right. It's like it. Which, like the. This is perfectly where you went with this is the. The idea that I'm shocking this system. We're looking at it, trying to get them to look at it in a new way. And, and. And then. And then like really promoting their own agency in this. Right. So this is one of the reasons why, man, I would not have had the same results with clients if it wasn't for your show. Hands down.

[A]

Thank you.

[B]

Hands down. Because I'm like, right at the beginning, it's like their homework is. I give them a Grayson book. And. And we're starting with that and wanting them to tell me what they're learning. And then I'm starting out with, okay, we're going to get into 113. What's 113? I don't know if you remember what 113 is when 113 is Grayson and uncertainty and go into. Do some metaphors with 151, which is Harris. Right. 200, which is one of my favorite episodes. Phillipson. Phillipson. Phillips. All you have to say is Phillipson. And you're probably right because you've had him on so much love. Philipson. Right. And so. So what we're doing is we're stacking new learning. Right. And they're. They're taking agency. I'm like, so what did you learn? I. I never ask, how are you doing today? I never ask about their feelings because what happens in this is their. I don't want them checking their feelings. They have a checking problem. It's like giving alcohol to an alcoholic. Why the heck would I do that? So I'm wanting to know, what are they learning? What are they focusing on? Where are they getting stuck? How are they moving through the. The process that we're going through?

[A]

Yeah. That's a really interesting way to look at it. And thank you for sharing my episode. So I appreciate that. And yeah, no, you're right. I mean, from, like, an act point of view. It's how I view what you've said is, like, we think of, like, emotions like a stormy sea, and we're not going to navigate by the storm. We're going to navigate by a fixed point, like the stars, which are our values and.

[B]

Right. Amen. Yeah, yeah. Right on, Right on. I want. All right. I want them to live by who they want to be. Right. And so, like, when we're talking about their emotions, you know, having that be their guide is. Oh, I mean, you're just in for a rough life. Let's just put it that way. You are. You're just. You're just going to cause more infliction and pain on yourself and lengthen your suffering. There's your act. Right. You're going to lengthen your suffering. Right. Everybody's going to have their system shocked and then have pain, and then how we approach it and move through it is going to determine our length of suffering. Right?

[A]

Yeah, yeah, right. Absolutely. Absolutely. And that's a life thing, right? Beyond ocd of if we're constantly getting swayed by our emotions, we're then going to act in ways that, in the workplace, it's going to get us in trouble versus, well, what my values say. Yes, that person has upset me, but how do I navigate that in a value space way?

[B]

Right. Yeah, yeah. So simply, what can I control versus what can I not control? And I can only control my response. For those of you that aren't me, it would be response. So that's. That's how it goes. And so. And then. Then I'm not surrendering my values and my belief system to intrusive thoughts, initial thoughts, other people, other voices, or my feelings and emotions.

[A]

Good point.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Which is very stoic. Right. Focusing on what you can control and the practicals.

[B]

And there's a lot. A lot of that. Yes.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, Maybe I'll talk this episode. Exposure and response prevention therapy.

[B]

You are. Oh, Stu, you're. You're working your way up in my. In my hierarchy of people right now.

[A]

People have to click the episode to know what the hell I'm on about. So, no, thank you. So let's talk about rumination. So obviously, a lot of people listening will be very familiar with rumination, but there might be some people listening that have just, you know, got into the OCD space or stumbled across the podcast or whatever. How would you describe rumination to someone or to a new client?

[B]

So rumination is different than actually critical in any type of critical thinking. And so so typically where, where it happens is there's, there's a thought that comes in and often there it's loaded with some type of emotion and, and, and it's connect. And the majority of people that I'm working with are, are hyper meaning making machines. So they're connecting it to all these possible, potential theoretical possibilities. And so this starts to get them in trouble because they're making value judgments on who they potentially are. Like, why did I just have this thought of kicking my dog? Does this mean I'm a terrible person? That must mean I'm a terrible person. I cannot be trusted, right? And so they start to get wrapped up in trying to solve something that was just a random thought now. And for me, I don't, I, I don't have ocd and I do have random thoughts. And for me it's easy to unhook from those because it's just a stupid thought. It's just a random thought. And then, and then for, for these people that are, get caught up in this, there's the obsession about trying to figure it out and, and they're spending all this mental emotional energy with their logic. And to them, they believe they're using logic and reasoning in the moment, but what it's, it's really faulty, fragmented and it just keeps them in there. And the reason why, you know, it's rumination because they don't come to like a, A, a resolution and aren't able to move on.

[A]

Yeah, really good point, Good description. So you've, you've, okay, so you've developed like an approach to rumination or like a tool skill. What is it? But before that, like, why do that? Why did you feel the need to kind of create that?

[B]

All right, so my, my background is education, right? And so I'm always curious and hunting and looking for areas that can improve a different, different ways to unlock people's ability to either connect or do or deepen learning. Right? So this neuroplasticity thing is, is really important. And, and so it, it came out of like two or three years ago. It just, it just naturally evolved from. I was, I was, I was starting with people with, with like a lot of act principles and you know, things like, you know, the unwelcome party guests to, you know, then also teaching the stop skill from dbt Stop. Take a step back, observe and, and I would say proceed with your values and beliefs and rules in mind and then using also some Exposure, response, prevention. And then we got to this place of like, response, prevention. So we've done this work, they've done some heavy lifting, they've done some recognizing of these, these patterns. And often I personify, I personify the, the vocd and I use like the old. I don't know if you're familiar with the old Pink Panther, like his butler, Cato. Right. And so Cato's there and attacks him every time, like he's with a girl, brings a, a female home and wants to have intimate time with her. And he's running around, not tonight, Kato, not tonight. And, and you know, Cato drops him the ceiling and everything ensues and the battle ensues. Right. And Cato's there to help keep him sharp. Quote, unquote. Right. So anyway, so we personify this thing and then how can we more quickly, more rapidly identify and move on so we're not having to go, is this or is this not. Because the, the moment you start to hesitate, you start to lose. Because the what ifs? The gateway, a column gateway, thoughts and phrases, the gateways start to come in and you start losing.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So winning is, is making the decision, having that feeling that it's still wrong and moving forward.

[A]

Yeah, I like that idea of having the feeling that's still wrong, quote, unquote, and moving forward. Because that's what it is. It's. You have to have that feeling there and keep moving. You don't need to get rid of it.

[B]

Right. And a lot of the work prior to is like, once again is like violating, violating that expectation because we've, we've identified the target now. And so often people want the target of. I don't want the thought, I don't want the feeling. I don't want the thought. I don't want the feeling that's not happening. I don't want the sun to come up. It doesn't work that way. Right.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So. So that there's that acceptance piece. And then, and now we're working with. Okay, so this is what's happening. What's going to be my new way in dealing with it. And so, so some of the principles that I teach her, you know, you have to practice it to access it, you know. Yeah. And it. To expand it. You know, it's like shifting and changing how we're, how we're dealing with this so that they have a process. So the key is to have a process and a plan and execute the plan. Because. Because in the moment, right in the moment, the shock Happens. This is here again.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Oh, my gosh. Right? You're not going to avoid that initial shock. It's just like I, I, I do. Since I'm not an anxious person, one of the things I started doing, and my son introduced me to this, like, back in 2018, 19 says, dad, you should try, like, cold therapy. And I'm like, like, why the heck would I want to do that? Well, here's the thing is cold is irrespective of persons. It's merciless. It doesn't care who you are, what you are, whatever. It hammers your system and you go. Right. And so I started doing that. 1. One of the reasons is so I could actually put my body and my brain is something that's distressful, that causes immediate stress, and learn to deal with it in a different way. And so the first thing I do, which is one of the first things I teach my clients, is like, well, that's disappointing. I was hoping it would be colder.

[A]

Yeah, right. Yeah. Yeah.

[B]

And so we're doing this type of thing. Well, that's disappointing. I was hoping that would have been more emotionally charged. I was hoping it would suck more. Right. And, and so when we choose that approach. Right. We actually shift, you know, I don't know if you've heard of the concept of clean pain versus dirty pain.

[A]

No, I don't think so.

[B]

Okay, well, so, so clean pain is just the pain.

[A]

Oh, okay. Yeah.

[B]

Right. And dirty pain is all the narratives above and you know, that we add. Right. Yeah. And I have experiences with this, like, even, like, like with like a physical thing that has happened to me, and then the moment I say something like, I want to feel, I want it to feel worse, I actually get the opposite result. Sorry, I said result, result. I apologize. Anyway, so, so, so it, it really, it really shifts. It really shifts how we move through things. Right? Yeah.

[A]

Yeah, I like that. I like that.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

It was like Philipson would say, you're kind of showing your brain irrelevance.

[B]

Yes, Yes. I am treating this as irrelevant. This is just a signal. Right, exactly.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Right. 275 episode 275. Like, when I'm going into rumination, I talk about 252, which is Greenberg. 269. And then I do, I do 275. So. Right, because you have brain voice versus gatekeeper. Yeah, that's how Phillipson would talk about it.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And so I'm giving my brain permission to have whatever crazy thought it does. And I am a jazz musician at heart. So it does have crazy thoughts, but I don't let those define me. I think they're fun. So. And then I move on.

[A]

Yeah, I like the like kind of leaning into it, going with, sticking with the water. Oh, I thought it would be colder than this, you know. And again like for me just thinking of that when I haven't done too many ice, ice plunges or whatever, cold plunges. And whenever I have it, the times it's been somewhat easy is when as soon as I've got in after that initial shock, which I have no control over, then it's just relaxing of it is what it is, relaxing into it. And then my body just completely accepts that it's cold and.

[B]

Right.

[A]

It becomes okay with it.

[B]

Right, right. And another thing to talk about, I'm going to get off track here, but I kind of go into ABCs and, and B would be like the behavioral response. So in here I'm going to choose an opposite oppositional point of view too. Like what Reed Wilson would talk about when he talks about like transforming fear and stuff. I'm going to choose this opposite which is also violating the expectation. I'm going to choose long exhales and that's going to tell my brain and body there's no threat here. As long as I'm, I'm telling my body, I gotta get geared up, something's gonna happen. Oh my gosh, you're not ready. Right. And then I'm just, I'm creating my own suffering right there. Yeah, right. Rather than leaning in going.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, no, I agree. I, I, I mean I'll use that sometimes during exposure therapy with clients. Just a single belly breath, slow out breath.

[B]

Yeah, just.

[A]

Yeah. Again, teaching the brain. I don't, some clients, I don't if it's a triggering for them, but sometimes it's really useful, I find.

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

So, so, yeah. So what's the, what's the skill?

[B]

Okay, so this is like a practice and this is, it's so simple and effective, which is what I like because I can handle that. So the as, so like I said, we do this work up front and I have, I have not introduced this earlier than like session eight. Okay. So we've done, we've done a good amount of, amount of work. They're convincing me they're not white knuckling. Right. And we're going through this. So, so then the practice is this. Okay, let's list your themes. So they're going to list all their themes that they are, they're coming up with Presently. And I'm going, okay, I, well, we want somewhere between like 2 to 12 of them. Okay. So they, they start to list them out. So, like, what might be some themes that you could, you would think of Stu.

[A]

Like OCD themes?

[B]

Yeah, like rumination themes.

[A]

Well, we're just ruminating about someone's religion, someone's relationship, whether they're a bad person, whether they're going to hurt someone.

[B]

Right, right. Great. And so in these, so the, they're, they're repeating patterns. So these come up often for them. So, so one of the things that, that, that we, that I, that I teach about is how do we handle accusations? So if you get defensive, it doesn't work. Right. Because then there's like, there's this, there's an incessant bias against. And you can't beat that in your head because you're the judge and jury in this. And when it's never enough, there's going to be this. Oh, but you didn't bring this part of the evidence into play. So we get them to list their themes and then we randomly number them. And I like using dice, so 2 to 12. And then random is important because we don't want a hierarchy. And so the process here now for the next week, I have them memorize the numbers, the correlating numbers with the theme, oh, I harmed that I might hurt my. My kiddo or I might have cheated on my partner. Right. Okay, one. Okay. This one's number three. Cheating on the partner is number three. Hurting self is number six. Right. And so, and they're practicing this quickly. So for the next week, they're, they're, they're identifying the numbers. So then they come in the session the next week. I go, okay, so how are we doing on these themes? And I test them in, quiz them, and then for fun, I'll flip it around. I'll see if I can have memorized their list as well. Okay. The important thing here is speed. They want to get the correlating number quickly. And then number one. Number one is for miscellaneous. So. Because what will happen with that is people will go, well, this is kind of this. But it might be also in this cat. No, that's number one. It's about moving on.

[A]

Okay, so you just. Yeah, keep going. Sorry.

[B]

Right. So when we label things and the, the, the beauty be up about number is it's about like Philipson would say, treating it as irrelevant. Right. Or, and, and so what we're doing here is we're marginalizing the content. Right. Wilson would Say it's rubbish, the content's rubbish. We're marginalizing it. Right. And then, and historically, humans are really great at marginalizing. Like we do like stereotyping. Like, that's why I started out with, hey, I'm a white, old, privileged, toxic male Christian. Right. And so, so then for every one of those people have a reason, excuse me, reason to dismiss me. So what we're doing here is I'm setting up this thing about how we're going to dismiss these themes. They're just themes. So that's why we give them numbers.

[A]

Interesting. Yeah. So, yeah, trying to not get fused or connected with the theme or the content and just trying to boil it down to a single number of irrelevance. Basically, it's. That's number one.

[B]

That's right, Right. It's not to avoid. No, it's to really. If it's irrelevant, let's treat it as irrelevant. So that's why there's not a hierarchy in numbers. Right. That's why I keep number one blank and miscellaneous. So any gateway thought or phrase like, oh, like what if? So if it starts with what if? Or maybe that's a number one. Right. Because we want. The speed is important. When you hesitate, you start to lose.

[A]

Okay. Yeah. So, so let, so what you're saying is throughout the week, like we come up with a list and then throughout the week as your client, my obligation or not obligation, my homework that I said obligation. My, my homework is to be like, so as soon as, you know, that thing about hurting my kid comes into my head, I go number three.

[B]

Right, Right. But the first practice is to memorize. Right. So it's like I want them several times a day. So which is. Right. For some of them it's still triggering. Like about hurting my kid. Right. That's number three. Right. It's. That's going to come up. Right. So they're getting a little, some habituation with that as well. Right. And they're also willingly choosing to bring it up. Right.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So that's all working in the background. So week one, I checked to see how are they doing with them memorize and they're already knowing now. So when it comes up, I'm doing this.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Right. And so the goal is, the goal is when it comes up and they may need some help in its in with a, with this skill to help them move on. And, and, and, and I use what I call, I call gentle lead with play by play. And it's. I don't want to go into what that is about. Except for. I'll just say this. It's like using my voice to, to lead my head of redirecting. Right. So this is like, oh, I, this is a number three. And whether it's real or not, I'm going to choose to accept that and it's okay how it feels and I'm moving on.

[A]

Okay. Yep, yep. So like self coaching, basically. Like self talk. Yeah.

[B]

Right. Okay. And so, so then after, so the next week, then when I, then when I asked them, I said, okay, so let's go. And I do a questionnaire and has seven or eight questions. And the first part of it is, okay, so from frequency, which of the, which ones came up most frequently with you per day or throughout the week? And they go, oh, well, number three was the mouse. Do I. Followed by number seven by number. Notice they're talking about numbers by number by four, by six, by 11. Right. Okay. All right. And then how often during the day are these coming up? Oh, you know, like 45, 40, 50, 20, 200. Right. Okay, great. And then it's like, okay, intensity wise, which ones were the most intense for you? And they go, okay. And they, they'll list them down. Right. And so then we'll, then we'll stop and we'll deepen the learning here. And I go, okay, well this is great. You had. And, and I go, of, of all these things, what can you control?

[A]

None.

[B]

None of them. None of them. And what, what's really important. You need this to happen. You need 40 attempts. You need 30 opportunities. These are fogs, frequency of opportunities for growth. Right. You need the fog to happen so you can grow without the fog. You don't grow. Right.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So just like a baseball player going up to bat, if he can't hit a breaking pitch, he's got to practice with breaking pitches whether he likes it or not. So the focus is I need the practice. Okay.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So then we get into the second part of, of the questions I ask. Okay. Ltr length of time ruminating. Right. Okay. What was the longest you spent ruminating? Oh, well. And, and, and what that means is before I chose to label at the number and start to move on. Okay. Two minutes, five minutes. Okay. What was the quickest seconds? Right. So, and then average maybe a minute, two minutes. What was it, what was it before, before we started working together? Oh my gosh, it was like hours. It was like 40 minutes per episode when, when the thought would come up. So they can see right here how they're, how they're improving So I, I, I purposely don't have them track it because the tracking would have them do checking.

[A]

Good point. There any other ways this, you've seen this become compulsive?

[B]

Well, so I keep, have I seen this become compulsive? I know. And because one of the things, I keep mixing it up. So I will do this practice with them. Like, so this is their daily practice. I do it with them for about a month. And then what we want to really do is continually push how irrelevant these themes are. And so if they had 12 themes, I go, okay, what we're going to do now is we're going to combine themes, especially if they, if there's no connection, we're going to combine them with some others and then we'll give them a new number.

[A]

Okay. Yeah.

[B]

And so, like the first month of doing this, it's like they get all this practice of like, being able to unhook quickly and move on. Quickly and move on. And then, then they start to really understand. So here's the secret. I don't care if they get the number, right? It's not about that. So then, so then I get to the point with most of my clients, it's like, that's just this number. That's just, it's just a number. And then they move on. It's just a number one. Especially with the new. Right, because the new feeling, this might have some legs to this, that accusation that comes up. Right. This intrusive thought, and it's like, oh, that's just the number one. That's just the number one.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, Good point. Yeah. Like you say, it's not about the number, it's just assigning it irrelevance and moving on.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah.

[A]

Okay, nice. Does it take your clients a while to get used to it?

[B]

They kind of naturally just fall into play. Right? So I love that, you know, when I start to introduce because, you know, with the, with my, with my encouraging of their own agency, like, very early on in the process, I'm loving it when they're starting to push themselves in areas. Right. And so that's, that's kind of what, what I see. And, and so, so many people, it's like, man, they really get it after a while and they really honestly don't need all the rest of the numbers. It's just, it just becomes irrelevant. Yeah, right. Yeah. And they still in, in, in. And then I'll check after a while. So, so it might be like a month or two months down the line and, and maybe I'm seeing them now, like once every other week. Or, or, or, or like just doing a check in after a month. I'll do a check and see. Okay, well, how many opportunities are you getting and how, you know, what's your ltr? And they're like, boom. You know, it's like this and this. So it's, it's really cool. It's simple. It's something they can do.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And I haven't seen any compulsions about. At least in the way I've delivered it. I haven't seen any compulsions come. You know, added compulsion of, oh, I have to do this and to feel this or, or have a trap in there.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah. That's interesting. So. Yeah, interesting, Interesting skill. Is there anything else you want to say on it?

[B]

Well, so I, you know, I've introduced it to some other therapists and some that have been using it. And, and I love how one in particular has introduced it as a taco menu. And so which is, which is really great. So there's this play you can have a playful nature about. Right. Because on the taco menu, that's this. Right. So I, So, you know, it's. I don't know where it's gonna end up. Yeah, right.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So as. As far as a practice, you know, I love the, the episode you just had with Johnny about, you know, stepping in and out. Stepping in and out. Right. So this, so, so we'll see how this goes. I, I've seen it be really successful in just helping people, helping clients just unhook quicker. It's just like, it's just a number.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. Or a taco or a type of taco.

[B]

Yeah, or taco. It's number four on the taco menu.

[A]

Right, okay. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Yeah, I like that. I mean, that's good for kids as well. Trying to make it more playful.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. Cool. No, that's really, it's really interesting. I'll definitely go away and have a. Think about it some more and think about trialing it with some of my clients and see what happens.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. If you have, if you need some help with a reach out on, on that. But appreciate it. Yeah. So I'm, I'm loving the rumination aspect. You know, I kind of fell in. When we talked about earlier, I kind of. I fell into like OCD with the supervisor that I had because I went into private practice right away. The supervisor I had had experience dealing with ocd and the first client that ever came to me was a mom. That's kiddo had essence contamination. And I'm like, what the heck is all this? And she's like, hey, you might be good at my supervisor, you might be good at this. Let's try this. And. And I loved it. I was in on it. I real, I realized it wasn't that the age group wasn't for me because I was working harder than the kiddo. But man, I just fell in love with how courageous this population is.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And it's just been an absolute blast.

[A]

Yeah, no, I agree with that. Absolutely. Okay, so slight, slight change. If you could pick up the phone and call the 20 year old you, what would you tell him?

[B]

You asked this question so many times and I was thinking to myself, self, I should come up with an answer. And of course I'm not. I didn't because I'm Ray the jazz guy. Improv guy. Exactly. So I'm going to come up with something on the spot. What would I tell the, the 20 year old me? You didn't die young. And isn't life just so fun? It just is fun. You're right. So you know, one of the things that I see the. Is avoid the tantrums, I think I might say. Right. So I'll go back, we'll tie it back into. There's this outcome picture we want. Right. And so this is to me and this is where the distress lies. So I want some things and then what I'm getting is not what I want. And so all, all the, all that is is this is an adult tantrum. That's like from a 2 year old. So can I, instead of, instead of, instead of doing that, can I recognize that and I would say recognize that sooner and then, hey, then move on. What can I control? What can I do?

[A]

Yeah, yeah, good point, good point. And you got a billboard. What do you want written on that billboard?

[B]

Because sometimes life sucks. That's won't be on my billboard.

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

Because it does. Yeah.

[A]

It's fun and it sucks at times.

[B]

It's gonna, it's gonna suck at times.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Right. So, yeah, and to me that's hopeful because it's not pretending like it's not gonna suck.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Yeah. It's accepting the cold.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[A]

Awesome. Look, is there anything else you wish you could have said or shared today?

[B]

Ah, well, I, I think I, I think I also want to, I, I thanked you for your show. I really also want to thank so many of these awesome people you've had on and how courageous they've been. Right. From the people with their stories. You know, like, you know, I love when I introduce, like, somebody like episode 134 to people, and that's Aaron Harvey.

[A]

Oh, yeah, yeah.

[B]

And. And, and it's great because I'll get the. I'll get the response of like, oh, yeah, me too. Or, oh, my gosh, I'm glad I'm not him. Right. And so. Which you get the whole gamut. And then. So just how courageous you're. This population is. And, and, and for you for starting this. I know when we talked in Miami, I asked you like, you know, like, what went on in the back of my mind for starting this. And, and just how it's morphed into such a great asset for people. Where, man, the Phillipsons and the Winston early on and oh, my gosh, Hirschfield, Brahmowitz, all of these guys have just been such. Really great for so many people, and it's so encouraging that. That you've been able to do this. And. And it's accessible.

[A]

Yeah, No, I. I appreciate it. And at times, like, going back to the emotions and stuff, it's. I. Week to week, some weeks, it was really my values pulling me through and taking action based on those values because there are weeks I didn't want to do it or I was ill or whatever. Or stuff was going on in my life.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Or on my mental health was rubbish.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And yeah, if I. If I'd listened to my emotions in those moments, this would have stopped a long, long time ago.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah.

[A]

Which may have been better for me. But. But, yeah, I don't know.

[B]

I think. I think. I think we get the journey we get. Right. And so trying to figure that out in. In relationship to who we want to be. Right. Yeah. Yeah. I'm not stopping with it. You know, it. So with my name in it. So, in fact, my truck, it says Silverado. And that's true. It doesn't sell Silverado on it, so it's true.

[A]

Okay. Have you actually changed the, like the sticker on the back?

[B]

Yeah, my. My. My son got me the Y and we moved it over. But so what's great is most people don't even realize when they see it, right. They go, is that how you spell Silverado? That's with a Y in there. I don't know. Anyway. Right, right. So I think. I think the playful nature. Right. Is. I think is such. It can be such an. An asset for people going through life. Right. So can I. Can I view this in a different way? Can I Can I choose to laugh at myself? Can I choose to laugh at this? It's. It just. It really, really makes the journey, I think, way better. So.

[A]

Yeah, I agree. Well, what comes to my mind there is, like, adults, generally speaking, I don't want to put every adult there, complain about the snow when it comes, but kids get in it and make snowballs and have a fight, you know?

[B]

Right.

[A]

Yeah. Merely, they don't have the obligations of an adult, but still, they're being playful and. And, yeah, cool.

[B]

But even. But even, like what you just said, right, the ad, like adults, we have these. We have also. These created obligations in our brain, which are also become some of our prisons that don't have to be right. And it's because we get locked into this way that we started doing things when we were in our 20s, and we haven't learned new ways of dealing with things.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And that's one of the benefits. And that's one of the amazing things of. Of working with people that have OCD and like, oh, my gosh, I'm 52, and it's like, I didn't know I had OCD and this. And what a great opportunity for them to change the rest of how they. How the life that they have here on Earth and how they deal with things.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And how cool is that? Yeah, it's been great.

[A]

Yeah, that is really cool. It's great to see the transformations in people as well.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So, look, this episode has been really good, so. Dude, dude, who said.

[B]

Who said you didn't have any hope? Look it, Stu, you're on it.

[A]

Brilliant. Thank you. No, it's been. It's been good. And yeah, I appreciate you coming on, sharing this and just your energy. It's been awesome.

[B]

Yeah. Well, thank you so much for the invite, and I really look. Really look forward to. To the next time we get to either talk or I get to see you in person.

[A]

Absolutely.

[B]

So.

[A]

All right, thanks a lot. All right, thank you for listening to this week's podcast and thank you to our patrons who helped make this episode possible. And if you would like to find out more about Patreon and the rewards and benefits, then there will be a link in the episode description. If you enjoy the OCD Stories podcast and would like to support us, please subscribe and rate the show wherever you listen to the podcast. And thank you to NOCD for supporting our work. If you want to find out more about nocd, you can click the link in the episode description. And quick disclaimer. Guys, this podcast is not therapy. It is not a replacement for therapy. Please seek treatment from a trained professional and until we speak, take care.