Podcast Summary: The OCD Stories – Episode #524

Title: Ray Kolke: Rumination by the Numbers (RBTN) as a tool for dealing with rumination
Host: Stuart Ralph
Guest: Ray Kolke, Licensed Mental Health Counselor
Release Date: February 8, 2026

Overview

In this engaging episode of The OCD Stories, host Stuart Ralph welcomes Ray Kolke, a licensed counselor well-known for his unique energy, humor, and unconventional approach to OCD and rumination. Ray shares his personal and professional journey, explains why he doesn’t focus on feelings at the start of sessions, and dives into his innovative tool—Rumination by the Numbers (RBTN)—for managing OCD-related rumination. The conversation is thought-provoking, playful, and offers concrete takeaways for both therapists and those dealing with OCD.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Ray Kolke’s Unconventional Path to Therapy

• [02:31] Ray describes entering the therapy world after diverse careers in music, software, and home renovation. Personal family struggles (including his daughter's mental health and other life crises) led him into a DBT peer parenting group and, ultimately, a counseling master’s program.
• Notable quote:

  “This was never in my scope of planning... all these things have really helped prepare me to be able to work with people in a beautiful way.” – Ray Kolke [03:20]

• Ray’s openness about personal adversity shapes his empathetic, resilient approach with clients.

2. The Benefits of a Nomadic, Playful Lifestyle

• Ray spends half the year working remotely from a travel trailer. He notes that being in beautiful, ever-changing environments feeds his creativity, mirroring the spontaneity he values from his jazz/music background ([07:09–09:24]).
• Metaphor: Therapy is like jazz—unpredictable, improvisational, but rewarding.

3. Rethinking Emotions in Therapy

• [09:36] Ray purposefully challenges clients’ expectations by not opening with “How are you feeling?” He argues that emotions are “stupid” as a guide for living because they’re byproducts of stimuli—not reliable navigation tools.
  • “Why the heck would I rest my wellbeing on something so fickle?” – Ray Kolke [10:30]
  • Instead, he focuses on agency, learning, and observable action, not emotional checking.
• Stuart compares this to ACT metaphors (using values as stars on a stormy sea rather than being lost in emotional waves) ([14:05–15:05]).

4. Introduction to Rumination & Its Challenges

• [16:56] Ray defines rumination as an endless mental loop where people attempt to use logic to solve an unresolvable (often meaningless) thought, leading nowhere. OCD sufferers are “hyper meaning making machines,” attaching value and self-worth to random thoughts ([16:56]).
  • “You know it’s rumination because they don’t come to a resolution and aren’t able to move on.” – Ray Kolke [18:54]
• The moment clients hesitate or get defensive over an intrusion, they start losing to OCD’s “gateway thoughts” (“what ifs”), reinforcing the cycle ([21:41]).

5. Rumination by the Numbers (RBTN): Concept and Practice

a. Origins and Theory

• Stemming from his background in education, Ray created RBTN as a simple, pragmatic way for clients to marginalize rumination themes and practice quick disengagement ([19:15–23:10]).
• He draws on ACT, DBT (“STOP” skill), and ERP while personifying OCD (e.g., “Cato” from Pink Panther).

b. Practical Steps

• Session 8+ Implementation: Not introduced before foundational work is complete.
• [28:07] RBTN Structure
  1. Client lists all current rumination themes (2-12 is ideal).
  2. Each theme is randomly assigned a number; randomness is crucial—there is no hierarchy ([29:08]).
  3. Memorize theme-number pairs over a week (practice for habituation—even the act of naming can be a mini-exposure).
  4. When a rumination or intrusive thought arises, the client quickly labels it with its number (“That’s a number three”).
  5. “Number one” is always “miscellaneous/open,” the catch-all for ambiguous or new intrusions.
  6. The speed of number assignment is critical—when clients hesitate, OCD gains ground ([32:07]).
  7. Over time, numbers are combined and reassigned for continued detachment.
• Process Purpose:
  • Marginalize the content—render it irrelevant.
  • Avoid getting stuck in content or value judgments.
  • Foster playfulness and agency in response to intrusion.

Quotes:

“When we label things... we’re marginalizing the content.” – Ray Kolke [31:06]
“If it’s irrelevant, let’s treat it as irrelevant... when you hesitate, you start to lose.” – Ray Kolke [32:19]

c. Self-Coaching Model

• Clients practice gentle, self-coaching talk during labeling (“That’s just a number three... whether it’s real or not, I’m accepting and moving on”) ([33:51–34:27]).

d. Measuring Progress (Without Compulsions)

• Ray asks clients to report (off the cuff, no daily tracking to avoid compulsions) on:
  • Frequency of each theme (now discussed purely as numbers).
  • Intensity.
  • Length of Time Ruminating (LTR) – both longest and shortest incidents ([34:33–38:13]).
  • Progress is usually marked by rapid reduction in average rumination time.
  • Ray underscores the importance of “frequency of opportunities for growth” (FOGs). The more opportunities to practice, the more progress ([36:49]).

“You need the FOG to happen so you can grow—without the fog, you don’t grow.” – Ray Kolke [36:25]

e. Playful Adaptations and Flexibility

• Some therapists Ray knows turned the list into a “taco menu”—making the approach even more playful and engaging ([41:47–42:49]).
• The practice is not about precision but about fostering irrelevance and detachment.

“The secret: I don’t care if they get the number right—it’s just assigning it irrelevance and moving on.” – Ray Kolke [39:50]

6. Values, Agency, and Play

• Ray stresses personal agency and playfulness as key tools for both therapy and living. He encourages choosing agency over victimhood and not letting intrusive thoughts define identity.

“I think the playful nature can be such an asset... can I choose to laugh at myself? It really makes the journey way better.” – Ray Kolke [49:17]

• A growth mindset means seeing every intrusive thought as practice for building resilience.

7. Memorable Life Lessons & Closing Reflections

Phone call to his 20-year-old self:

• “You didn’t die young. And isn’t life just so fun?... Avoid the tantrums,” Ray improvises. He frames most adult distress as an “adult tantrum” over not getting outcomes we want, advocating instead for acceptance and agency. ([44:28–45:54])

Billboard Quote:

• “Because sometimes life sucks. That’s what will be on my billboard... It’s going to suck at times. To me that’s hopeful, because it’s not pretending like it’s not going to suck.” – Ray Kolke [46:03]

Gratitude:

• Ray thanks Stuart, the podcast, and the wider OCD community, noting how stories and expertise provide hope, learning, and connection for countless listeners ([46:43–48:09]).

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On not asking about feelings:

  “I never ask, ‘How are you doing today?’... They have a checking problem; it’s like giving alcohol to an alcoholic. I want to know—what are they learning?...” – Ray Kolke [13:20]

• On compulsions in RBTN:

  “I haven’t seen any compulsions about (RBTN) in the way I’ve delivered it... They really honestly don’t need all the rest of the numbers. It just becomes irrelevant.” – Ray Kolke [41:18]

• On embracing discomfort:

  “Clean pain is just the pain. Dirty pain is all the narrative above that we add.” – Ray Kolke [24:37]

• On values, not emotions, as a compass:

  “We’re not going to navigate by the storm, we’re going to navigate by a fixed point, like the stars—our values.” – Stuart Ralph [14:05]

Key Timestamps for Important Segments

• 04:40 – The role of difficult life events in shaping Ray’s therapy style.
• 09:36 – Why Ray doesn’t ask clients about feelings in session.
• 16:56 – Defining rumination and its role in OCD.
• 19:15 – Origins of “Rumination by the Numbers.”
• 28:07 – Step-by-step explanation of the RBTN tool.
• 31:06–32:19 – Importance of marginalizing OCD themes and acting quickly.
• 34:33 – Measuring progress & frequency of intrusive thoughts (“FOGs”).
• 39:50 – The true purpose of numerical labeling.
• 41:47 – Playful adaptations (e.g., the taco menu).
• 44:28 – Advice Ray would give his younger self.
• 46:03 – Ray’s Billboard: “Because sometimes life sucks.”

Tone, Energy & Takeaways

Ray Kolke’s style blends humor, irreverence, and deep warmth. His RBTN approach offers both a practical, skills-based intervention and a playful, non-pathologizing attitude toward OCD thoughts and rumination. The episode is full of metaphors (music, play, weather), memorable quotes, and real-world wisdom, making it both insightful for clinicians and accessible for individuals struggling with OCD.

For Further Learning

Ray references foundational OCD resources and podcast episodes (e.g., episodes featuring Grayson, Phillipson, Greenberg, Wilson, Harris) as core learning tools for clients, reinforcing the importance of psychoeducation and agency in the recovery journey.

This episode is a must-listen for anyone looking for a fresh, hopeful, and empowering way to approach intrusive thoughts and rumination in OCD.