Story: Ally Kristan (Grief, worries of harm coming to others, her book) (#519)

Summary

The OCD Stories, Episode #519: Story: Ally Kristan (Grief, Worries of Harm Coming to Others, Her Book)

Host: Stuart Ralph
Guest: Ally Kristan
Date: January 4, 2026

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Overview

In this episode, Stuart Ralph welcomes marine scientist and penguin expert Ally Kristan to share her personal OCD journey, including grief, harm-related obsessions, her path through therapy, nature, animism, intuitive healing, and her book “Braving the Waves.” Ally openly discusses childhood onset, family dynamics, coping mechanisms, re-framing OCD, and the positive role nature and intuition play in her ongoing recovery. The episode also explores her career in marine biology, time in Antarctica, and what animals like penguins can teach us about life and resilience.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

Childhood Onset: Grief and the Spark of OCD

[01:54–08:26]

• Ally’s OCD began at age 12, following the death of her grandmother and exposure to tragic ghost stories in a school class.
  • The awareness of mortality—both from the funeral experience and tragic stories—produced deep anxieties about harm coming to loved ones.
  • Ally’s compulsions included counting, tapping, repeated rituals, praying, and reassurance seeking (e.g., standing outside parents’ door to check they were breathing).
  • Notable experience: Meeting a friend with similar compulsions led to the “profound relief” of realizing her symptoms had a name and could be treated.

Notable Quote:

“Nothing has ever been more important to me in my life than my loved ones... I could not handle the uncertainty of realizing terrible things can happen... So, I think both of those factors combined and, kind of all of a sudden one day, these symptoms started to come on.”
— Ally [03:02]

Therapy, Recovery, and Growing Up

[08:26–18:18]

• Fortunate to find a pediatric OCD specialist in Raleigh, NC, who offered consistent talk therapy and eventually Prozac.
  • Therapy strategy: Listing and removing compulsions, one by one—with recurring success for Ally.
  • Ally notes the “spontaneous” compulsions and intrusive thoughts remained more persistent throughout adolescence and adulthood.
• Lack of OCD-specific resources as an adult led Ally to self-educate and support her own recovery.
  • She describes being the one to educate her general therapists about OCD.

Notable Quote:

“I wound up doing a lot of my own research and doing self-treatment and have still continued to go to therapy pretty regularly, but have never been to an OCD specialist again... I’m usually the one, like, teaching my therapist about OCD and how it's impacting my relationships or career.”
— Ally [07:22]

Core Themes: Harm and Loss Obsessions

[12:22–14:09]

• Ally’s OCD theme was focused on fears of losing loved ones, manifesting in rituals to prevent harm and death to loved ones and even strangers.
  • Example: Compulsively tapping or praying to stop parents from being hurt in car accidents or prevent illness.

Notable Quote:

“Every time my parents left the house, it would be all sorts of compulsions and pretty much nonstop prayers until they returned... tapping two hundred and six times... to make sure neither of them gets an awful medical diagnosis tomorrow.”
— Ally [12:39]

Connection to Nature, Mindfulness, and Intuition

[18:49–26:26]

• Nature and mindfulness are central in Ally’s self-care—spending intentional, phone-free time outdoors, tuning into the present moment, and practicing meditation.
  • Daily meditation, mindful nature observation, and engaging with tarot/oracle cards to reconnect with intuition.
  • Discussing how OCD treatment can sometimes confuse ignoring all intuition. Ally found value in learning to distinguish fear-based compulsions from genuine gut feelings.
• Stuart and Ally exchange on the tension between science, therapy, and trusting intuition.

Notable Quotes:

“There’s such an overlap between how much screen time I’m spending or time at work and how present my OCD symptoms are... just sitting and being and watching what’s going on around me is profound.”
— Ally [19:09]

“OCD is so primarily fear based... the gut instinct feels a bit more like drawing me towards something good... OCD feels so tightly up in my chest, but the intuition feels more down in my stomach, like it’s a more grounded feeling.”
— Ally [24:10]

Memorable Exchange:

“For me, sometimes intuition, it’s a knowing. OCD is very much a doubt... the real big intuitional moments for me, I almost haven’t been fearful. It’s been like, no, no, this is the truth. Like I was certain.”
— Stuart [25:41]

Reflections on Grief, Family, and Childhood

[08:26–12:13]

• Both Ally and Stuart share personal stories of the first experience with parental grief (seeing their fathers cry), which left strong, formative impressions and a sense of vulnerability.
  • Connecting these early experiences to their OCD onset—a universalizing moment for listeners.

Notable Quote:

“The first time you see your parents really upset and you’re like, oh, the superhero is crying—things can’t be good.”
— Ally [10:54]

Reframing OCD, Animism, and Self-Compassion

[31:45–40:41]

• Ally talks about reframing certain compulsions, such as “knocking on wood,” by learning about their origins in animistic beliefs, giving compulsions a positive or spiritual spin (e.g., tree spirits).
  • Discusses heightened empathy toward objects and animals as a child (animism, concern for stuffed animals), finding comfort in realizing one’s differences might be innate and beautiful, not “sick.”

Notable Quote:

“If I can have an appreciation for the world around me in that way, instead of viewing it as this obsessive fear... maybe as something innate and that can be seen beautifully, rather than you thinking of it as this sickly part of your mind, has been hugely helpful for me.”
— Ally [39:23]

On Writing “Braving the Waves”

[36:35–40:41]

• Ally’s book was written to de-stigmatize OCD and share self-help approaches, especially for those with limited OCD-specific resources.
  • First half: Memoir for better empathy and understanding for parents, children, and loved ones.
  • Second half: Self-help guide (nature spirituality, reframing compulsions, journal prompts).
  • The book reflects Ally’s identity as a marine scientist, with a penguin on the cover.

Memorable Moment:

“She just loved penguins and she’d always suffered from OCD, and she google searched ‘OCD and penguins’ and it came right up. And I was like, wow, you’re like the exact 1% of the population who could really resonate with this.”
— Ally [36:41]

Penguins, Antarctica, and Lessons from Wildlife

[40:54–46:41]

• Ally describes Antarctica as both incredibly beautiful and utterly indifferent—“it does not care whether you live or die”—and shares awe at animals like Weddell seals and Adelie penguins surviving in extreme conditions.
  • Observing animal resilience, community, and presence has profoundly influenced her own approach to fear and living in the present.
  • Penguins rarely seem fearful except in true danger—humans could learn to worry less about the future and enjoy the present, trusting in their own resilience.

Notable Quote:

“Watching penguins and other animals has taught me to enjoy every single day... it’s okay to enjoy the present without so much fear of what tomorrow holds. Nobody else except for humankind seems to have this deep fear. And I honestly kind of think other animals are more evolved than we are because of that.”
— Ally [45:24]

Reflections on Worry and Words of Hope

[43:11–44:28; 44:36–45:12]

• Ally emphasizes inheriting resilience, coming from ancestors who survived immense hardship; encourages listeners that it’s possible to thrive with OCD and that seeking help is an act of strength.
• On what she’d tell her 20-year-old self:
  • “You don’t have to worry so much, things really are going to be okay... one of my biggest regrets in life is how much time I’ve spent worrying when really things turn out okay.”

Penguin Advocacy: Krill Fishing

[46:52–48:58]

• Ally advocates for stopping krill fishing in the Southern Ocean (crucial to Antarctic ecosystems and wildlife survival), raising awareness for ethical omega-3 alternatives.

Memorable Quote:

“Stop krill fishing. That’s what I would like... when you see pictures of these huge super trawlers in the most remote areas at the bottom of the earth, just taking everything that they can—a completely needless industry, I think is a pretty stark image of what’s happening with corporations today.”
— Ally [46:52]

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• 01:54: Ally’s OCD origin story (grief & ghost stories)
• 07:22: Discovering a name for her symptoms and start of therapy
• 12:22: Core OCD themes: fear of harm/loss
• 18:49: Nature/mindfulness as self-care
• 21:51: Discussion: intuition vs. OCD-related fear
• 31:45: Reframing OCD with animism/nature spirituality
• 36:35: About Ally’s book, “Braving the Waves”
• 40:54: Experiences in Antarctica, animal resilience
• 43:11: Words of hope for listeners
• 46:52: Krill fishing advocacy

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Memorable Quotes

• “There is such a shortage of OCD specialists... I wound up doing a lot of my own research and doing self treatment...” — Ally [07:22]
• “Nothing has ever been more important to me... than my loved ones... I could not handle the uncertainty of realizing that.” — Ally [03:02]
• “For me, sometimes intuition, it’s a knowing. OCD is very much a doubt.” — Stuart [25:41]
• “Anyone who’s alive today has to come from a very strong bloodline... you already inherently have what it takes to get past OCD...” — Ally [43:11]
• “The blood of all those people is still within you. We all come from warriors and fighters and survivors.” — Ally [43:11]
• “Watching penguins and other animals has taught me to enjoy every single day... Nobody else except for humankind seems to have this deep fear, and I honestly kind of think other animals are more evolved than we are because of that.” — Ally [45:24]

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Overall Tone

The discussion is open, empathetic, and practical, mixing candid sharing of struggle and vulnerability with warmth, intelligence, humor, and hope. The tone is contemplative and gently philosophical, highlighting science, spirituality, community, and the healing power of nature.

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Further Resources

• Ally’s Book: “Braving the Waves” (link in show notes)
• OCD Support: NOCD (link in show notes)
• Dr. Sam Greenblatt episode (mentioned by Stuart; intuition vs. OCD discussion)
• Jane Goodall’s final Netflix interview (for inspiration and mindful nature observation)

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End summary.

Transcript

[A]

You're listening to the OCD Stories podcast hosted by me, Stuart Ralph. The OCD Stories is a podcast dedicated to raising awareness and understanding around obsessive compulsive symptoms. I do this through interviewing inspired therapists, psychologists and people who have experienced OCD. Welcome to the OCD stories and welcome to episode 519 of the podcast. And in this one I chat with Ali Kristen who who has kindly agreed to share her OCD story with us. And in particular we talk about her compulsions, starting therapy in adolescence, grief, worries of harm, coming to others, what else has helped her intuition, her book, connection with nature, animism, penguins and the Antarctic. And this is relevant because she's a penguin expert and has done a couple trips to the Antarctic and much more. Really enjoyed my chat with Ali. Really interesting. I hope you guys like it too. And thanks to our podcast partners. Nocd. If OCD is interfering with your life, NOCD can help their licensed therapists specialize in exposure and response prevention therapy. The most proven therapy for OCD with NOCD, effective treatment that is 100% virtual, is available for children and adults with OCD and most members can get started within seven days on average. No hassle, just real science backed help and support between sessions. Begin your [e-mail] or I'll put the link in the episode description. So thank you so much to Ali for her time and her story. And of course thank you to you guys for listening. As always, it means a lot. Without further ado, here is Ali. Welcome to the podcast, Ali.

[B]

Thank you very much Stu. Wonderful to be here.

[A]

Yeah, it's good to have you on and yeah, I'd love to hear your OCD story. So you can share that now in as little or as much detail as you want to give.

[B]

Sure, I'd be happy to share that. So I am 30 years old and I was diagnosed with OCD when I was 12 years old. And there were two major events that I think precipitated the greatest onset of symptoms. One was the death of my grandmother, which was not particularly tragic. You know, she was elderly and had been sick and lived far away, died of natural causes. But seeing my parents response and going to the funeral and all of that was the first time that I really faced human death. And then around the same time that happened, I was taking a class in sixth grade called Tar Heel Ghosts, which was a ghost stories class meant to introduce you to the history of North Carolina through fun stories. And it was a blast. And I love ghost stories to this day. But the Thing about ghost stories is they never start with, like, old man Jenkins was 105 years old and went to bed at night and died peacefully in his sleep. And now his ghost haunts you forever. You know, there's always some, like, absolute tragedy and agonizing pain that creates the ghost. Like the bride who caught fire on her wedding day, or the beloved family man who falls off the ladder on top of his head, you know, so that of course, I was naive. I was in sixth grade, but that was the first time that I ever realized that, like, not everyone just dies of a natural cause. Like, these terrible things can happen to beloved people and you have absolutely no control over it. And nothing has ever been more important to me in my life than my loved ones, like most people. So I could not handle the uncertainty of realizing that. So I think both of those factors combined. Kind of all of a sudden, one day, these symptoms started to come on. And within about a week, it was every waking moment I was performing rituals and compulsions. And it started out initially that numbers were a huge part of it. So, like counting and tapping, it would be like there were good numbers and bad numbers, and four was a good number for four people in my family. And numbers less than that were bad numbers, for instance. So there were recurring rituals, like every time I walk by the stove, tapping on it 204 times. But then there were spontaneous ones that would come up, like, you know, counting how many steps from the car to the front door, or how many words I spoke in a sentence, or how many chews between a bite and swallowing. So that was pretty constant and was leading to very embarrassing behaviors. Knocking on wood. I was no longer today, but at the time we were involved in the Catholic church, so incessant prayer was another big part of it. And constant reassurance seeking. Even standing outside my parents bedroom door at night to make sure I could hear them breathing and waking them up if I couldn't. So that was all deeply troubling for the whole family. And after about a year of this, I was speaking with my best friend at the time, a girl named Alex. And she told, confided in me one day that she had just been diagnosed with ocd. And the reason she knew was because she would like, shake every time she got out of the shower. She would shake her towel under the shower head four times because four was a good number for her. And I was like, oh my God, that sounds like exactly what I'm dealing with. And when my parents came to pick me up that day, I told them. And I remember we all just felt such profound relief realizing there was a name for this. And if there's a name, then a doctor must know about it. And if a doctor knows, surely you can be treated. Unfortunately, I came from, you know, a very supportive family, and we lived in Raleigh, North Carolina, where there's a medical specialist for everything. And so they found a pediatric OCD specialist, most like yourself. And he was also a young man, Randy Stokes, and still friends with him to this day and very grateful for him. And we. I began counseling with him in sixth or seventh grade and began Prozac shortly after counseling with him too. So that continued all the way through high school. And I stopped taking the medication when I went to college, and that was fine. And he pretty much every time we got together, he had me write down all of my recurrent rituals, which took up most of my time. And every time we met, he would tell me to stop doing several of them. And each time, fortunately, it worked. I just had enough faith in him and I would cut out those recurring rituals one by one. The spontaneous ones never really went away. Like the intrusive thoughts, the knocking on wood, the, you know, I might walk through a door and have a need to walk through it again. And for my. I'm a marine scientist, so for my career in my education, I've moved around the country pretty constantly ever since college. And I found, which I think you have found too, and is why you began your integrative center, that there is such a shortage of OCD specialists, or at least who are accessible or affordable to, you know, a young person like myself. So I wound up doing a lot of my own research and doing self treatment and have still continued to go to therapy pretty regularly, but have never been to an OCD specialist again. And really I'm usually the one, like, teaching my therapist about OCD and how it's impacting my relationships or career or what have you. So I wound up last year finally getting to a place where I'd felt like I'd gotten a grip on my compulsions and thoughts through all of this self treatment and finding what works for me most of the time. And so, and also just a place of acceptance of this is how my mind works. Is there a way that I can reframe how I see OCD for maybe more of, like, an innate need or in the ways that it can serve me? So I don't just see it as this, like, toxic part of my mind, but just something that I can work with. And so I wrote my book Braving the Waves at the time to try and share my story. And also what had worked for me, coming to a place of realizing that I'm very proud of my life today and I don't have to be ashamed of this OCD diagnosis. It's really just the way that my brain works. So I wrote the book to kind of show, here's how much I've struggled, but I've still made it to where I am today. And here are some things that work for me in the hopes that maybe it could work for you too. And ever since then, I've just been speaking up more vocally and without shame about it. And that's what brings me here to your podcast today. And hearing all the other stories on your podcast was really helpful in that journey too.

[A]

Yeah, thank you. Thank you for sharing. And going right back to. Was when you lost your nan, right, Your grandma.

[B]

Yes. Yeah, yeah.

[A]

How old were you at that point?

[B]

11.

[A]

11. Yeah.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And you said something about obviously the loss of her, which obviously would have been tough, I'm sure. And then something about seeing your parents reaction just. Yeah, speak to that.

[B]

Yeah, exactly. Yeah, great question. I mean, I think it was just the first time seeing grieving and then going to the funeral, and it's an open casket, so you're seeing a dead person and everybody there is sad. And, you know, when you face that as a child, you're like, oh, this is how it ends for everybody one day. That's a bit jarring. And then that combined with learning about ghost stories and more tragic stories that happen to people and realizing, hey, this was really the best case scenario for my grandma, and that still doesn't happen all the time, as devastating as that already was. So, yeah, I think seeing other people's emotions and that's a time when you realize how little control you have over what happens to people and you can't protect your loved ones from bad things happening to them or their sadness when bad things happen to their loved ones. And that's kind of the thing with OCD is like, you're having such an issue with uncertainty and with lack of control and with so much fear of bad things happening. So I think I was just desperately trying to get some sort of grip and make sure bad things couldn't happen. Even though, of course, logically I knew I had absolutely no control over it. It was just this feeling of like, I have to do something.

[A]

Yeah, that's really interesting. And I think. Yeah, because in my own journey, there was. I Lost my nan sort of six months ish. Before my first OCD memory.

[B]

Oh, really?

[A]

Yeah. Quite close. I was quite close with. I was close with both my nans. I was lucky to have two. Really wonderful dance and. Yeah, that one. When she passed. I don't think I read into it too much at the time because I was. I was six, six and a half. So I couldn't quite comprehend death. But then I remember clearly seeing my dad grieving. It was his mom and was very upset, very emotional, and he was kind of doing it. He was upstairs kind of away. This is at the wake. And I just remember it kind of hit me when I saw him. And I think, yeah, there's something in that of like seeing severity of it, you understand? That's why I understood at that age. Not that she had gone, but I could see the pain.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Oh, that's fascinating that. Such a similar experience. Mine. It was my father's mother, too. And, yeah, him. He, like, came down to tell we were on family vacation at the beach and nobody even had cell phones. We found out a couple of days later and he, like, came down from the stairs to tell us and was crying. And. Yeah, the first. I guess maybe it was for you, too. The first time you see your parents really upset and you're like, oh, the superhero is crying. Things can't be good.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, that's exactly it. It was the first memory I have of my dad crying.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Or Eva parents, I think it was. Yeah. Like you're saying, it's quite shocking. Is there anything wrong with crying in front of your kids? I want to caveat. No, but.

[B]

No, not at all.

[A]

Alongside the grief. And then it just sank in for me. But, yeah. Yeah, that's interesting. And then. And then obviously the ghost stories, and you can see how from an OCD brain, it took. Well, you know, death happened to my nan, and then I saw the pain of that within the family system. And then now I'm hearing all these horror stories. What happens to me or someone else?

[B]

Yeah, exactly. Absolutely. Yeah. It's quite jarring. And, you know, fortunately we're in 2025, so things like falling off the horse and the hoof landing on your head are less common, but still the same sentiment applies.

[A]

True. Yeah. And hopefully not too many Brides on fire anymore, Right?

[B]

Yeah, one would hope. Yeah. That was a story I heard in Alexandria, Virginia, that was really quite spooky.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely. So I may have missed it. I heard all the compulsions. What were the sort of themes of OCD for you?

[B]

Like, the fears behind them.

[A]

Yeah, the key worries, the thoughts.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. Just losing loved ones. Like, it would be like every time, you know, there was a ghost story or maybe even I saw in a movie that, you know, the parents went for a drive at night when it was raining, and they got into a car accident and never returned home. So every time my parents left the house, it would be all sorts of compulsions and pretty much nonstop prayers until they returned to, you know, that they would come back alive to the house. Or, you know, 206 times tapping on the refrigerator to make sure that, you know, neither of them gets an awful medical diagnosis tomorrow. Or, you know, do this 20 times to make sure we still have at least 20 years together. Things like that. And then it. Then it would spread out into strangers, too. Like, I might see her. Not necessarily a stranger, but the teacher might seem like she's having a bad day, and then she'll say when she's leaving, like, see you guys tomorrow. And then I would knock on wood for her, like, I hope you'll see us tomorrow. I hope you don't die overnight. You know, things like that were pretty constant.

[A]

Wow. And you said two hundred and six times there. Was that like a reoccurring number or is that just an example you gave?

[B]

Yeah, that was one. There are many recurring numbers, but that. Because two was a good number for me, that represented, like, it's. I mean, it's Silly. I was 11, but it represented, like, finding my soulmate one day and we would make two, and then six was the four people in our family and our dog and our lizard. So that was all of us being okay. And then six plus two made eight, which was also a good number for me. So it was like a trifecta.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And do you have the dog and lizard now?

[B]

No, I don't. The lizard, actually. Pluto, she lived 20 years old. She only passed a couple years ago, which is pretty outstanding. Oh, so you had the.

[A]

Sorry, you had the lizard at that point?

[B]

Yeah. As a child. Yes. But I have a different dog today. Lila. Yeah.

[A]

Okay, nice.

[B]

Yeah. Patch would have been about 23 by now, so he. He's not still with it.

[A]

What type of lizard was it?

[B]

A leopard gecko. Are you familiar with those?

[A]

I know I'm familiar with geckos, but not. I'll Google it after this.

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

Is it leopard spotted? Is that what.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Yeah. Okay.

[B]

Yeah, they're like a desert native species.

[A]

Okay. Are they friendly?

[B]

Oh, very friendly. They don't Even have any teeth.

[A]

Oh, okay, perfect.

[B]

Yes. Friendly nocturnal little lizard.

[A]

Okay, nice. Nice.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Okay, excellent. And I guess so we know for some people the OCD kind of directly links into trauma and for others there's no, no link at all. So, you know, for you there's this clear feeling of losing your nan and then obviously the, the pain around that you. And then all of the OCD worries around preventing other people getting hurt or dying.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Does that feel like it is quite linked or not?

[B]

Yeah, I mean it must be, you know, and it was interesting too because we, it didn't really start until, I mean, we found out about my grandmother one year at the beach house, then the next year was okay, but I took that ghost stories class, et cetera. And then by the next year came around and we returned to the same beach house. It was, I guess triggering is the right word. And that's when the onset of symptoms really flooded. So. Yeah, I think you probably gave an accurate description of it.

[A]

Yeah. Okay, thank you. And when you first saw that therapist for OCD, how old were you?

[B]

You said, you said 12, I think. Yeah.

[A]

Okay. And what was that like going to see? Was that the first sort of mental health professional you had come across?

[B]

Yeah, it was. And it was such a tremendous relief. I mean, I think speaking with anybody would have felt that way. But he, he was just such a wonderful human and therapist. I was very lucky to come into contact with him. But yeah, I mean, I think I, I always at the time has changed a bit these days, but I had such faith in doctors. Like we were around many medical professionals. I was constantly going to the doctor as a kid for like stomachaches and they'd be like, oh, she's just anxious. So, you know, the precursors for OCD were always there, but I just had trust that this was a person who was going to help me and was equipped with a diagnosis and the tools necessary. I did not enjoy the psychiatrist so much because they just didn't really speak to me. You just like take this test behind a computer and they tell you what percentage for each diagnosis and write a prescription. But yeah, going to see the therapist every week. I really looked forward to it.

[A]

Okay. Yeah, Pretty good to hear. And at you were 12, so was it, did they get creative at all or anything like that?

[B]

Really? Yeah. And I know I've, I know that you'll do some like play therapy and forest bathing and things like that, which I today in my own self help tend to do a lot more of those sorts of activities. Of just trying to be mindful or trying to be present makes a huge difference. But no, it was really all talk therapy. I don't even think we really did erp. He would just tell me to go home and cut out these rituals and I would do it. And maybe if that had been differently, he would have gotten more creative or suggested different things. But I think just having someone to talk to about it and an adult that I trusted who would say, don't do that anymore and you'll get better. Which I guess didn't mean enough coming through my parents, you know, coming from him, it was easier to believe.

[A]

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. And at 12, I don't think you need to get creative and I definitely don't sometimes with 12 year olds because they're much more verbal and can engage you in that way. It's more the younger kids, but I will get creative sometimes with 12 year olds. It really depends if they, they're interested in that.

[B]

Yeah. What sorts of ways exactly.

[A]

It's more me just asking out curiosity of understanding how other therapists work at that age range.

[B]

Oh, okay.

[A]

And yeah, you mentioned forest bathing. I typically, I haven't done that for a long time now. I do it for myself more. So.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah, maybe one day. So. Yeah. So self care and your own stuff. What you mentioned mindfulness and things like that. What else helps you maintain and. Or has helped you in recovery?

[B]

Yeah, so many things. That's a wonderful question. And it kind of varies depending on what's going on too. But always, always as cliche as it sounds, just spending more time outside in nature, disconnected helps me completely. There's such an overlap between like how much screen time I'm spending or time on my phone or time at work and how present my OCD symptoms are. So being very mindful about taking that time outdoors and leaving my phone when I go and not doing something when you're outside too. You're not talking to somebody, you're not doing it to exercise, you're not eating a stack. Just sitting and being and watching what's going on around me is profound. I meditate every single day. I went on some meditation retreats which helped a lot. And I know that also sounds very trite and cliche and I hated doing it for like a year, but now have finally gotten to a place where I really can drop in when I meditate. So it's very worth. Continuing the practice, even if it's just two minutes a day until you can get to that point has been hugely helpful. Well, this Might not resonate with everybody, but I really enjoy practicing with like tarot cards and oracle cards because I found something for me, having been treated for OCD as a child, which I'd be curious to hear your thoughts on this too, since you work with children. I, I interpreted my OCD treatment as like, everything, you know, the OCD is noise. But I kind of learned to realize that everything that did not factually make sense was also noise and needed to be ignored. And I think that's a big reason why I followed science in my career too, is because I felt I could really only trust what could be proven and what was very logical and methodical. So what came with that, unfortunately, I think meant like, I shut down my intuition a little bit. You know those like, funny tummy feelings they'll talk about when you're a kid or those anxious feelings that something isn't right. Maybe it was partially the Prozac, but also partially me just saying like, oh, that's ocd. You're being anxious, you're being afraid and totally shutting down listening to those feelings. And that was a huge loss to not really being be in touch with my intuition as I went through young adulthood. So this presence and mindfulness practice has helped me to be able to hear those intuitive thoughts and feelings again. And then doing these fun little practices like working with the tarot cards, helps me to trust my intuition again. Like if I do a reading for somebody and it resonates with them, I think, oh, I'm really picking up on something. You know, not all noise is negative. There are other things that you can pick up on and trust in when you're more in tune with your environment. So that's been really fun and also just a fun thing I can do with friends rather than sitting alone in my room thinking I'm trying to heal my ocd. You know, it can be more community based, which is enjoyable. But yeah, I'm curious to hear too if you've what your thoughts are on working with children and how you can delineate noise versus like a gut feeling or a fear reaction you really should be listening to.

[A]

Yeah, it's good to hear you say that. I guess working with them, I don't try and help them figure it out. I guess I'm trying to help them figure out what's the OCD voice, you know. Yeah, we spot that get, get distance. But then for me as an individual, yeah, it's something I've worked a lot on of even in therapy, holding the scientific principles and the psychology and the evidence base and all of that and working off of that, but then easing more into my intuition in the session with the client, you know, And I see this quite a lot. I give examples of things and it's. It's like bang on something that. That their preference or that somewhere they've been or somewhere that something they were thinking. And I'm really. I don't know, it feels like I'm tapping into something in the moment.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

My science, scientific critical brain is thinking, why am I just picking up on cues that this sort of person would like or go to this sort of place? Which is why I said it's maybe. I don't know, I don't care. But either way, if. Either way, even if I'm picking up on physical cues, I'm still attuned to the moment, you know?

[B]

Yeah. So that's really interesting.

[A]

I don't know if you've heard the Dr. Sam Greenblatt episode a few months ago now. And he. When I first interviewed him many years ago, he kind of said, like, don't listen to your gut, or something along those lines. And then more recently, he said, no, I was actually wrong. And. And he goes into this. I'll link to it in the show notes this episode, but he goes into this spiel about how he's learned to trust his gut a bit more and to differentiate between what is OCD and what is a gut instinct. And he tries to give some framework for trying to see the difference.

[B]

Oh, very cool.

[A]

Yeah. And I think in my own journey, as I've. And maybe you. You've seen this as I've got sort of karma, so to speak, or on top of ocd or know exactly what OCD sounds like in my mind, I can then understand what is gut instinct or. Versus what is fear and ocd. Yeah. So I'm always hesitant to talk about it because I think when. When people are in the thick of it, they. They. They can buy into that OCD lie and think, oh, well, maybe that's the gut instinct, you know. Right. Really, it's.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. It is so difficult. And I'll have to go back and listen to that episode because it's fascinating and it's something that I tried to get into in my book as well. And, you know, it can be so hard for people like you and I, who have delved so deeply into the sciences in your education, which is like completely the antithesis of everything, gut instinct, to try and, like, still bring that humanistic approach to the way you're interacting with patients or with the outside world. But. And I think it takes a little distance from OCD to hear it. Like I don't think I could have been able to delineate it when I was so completely debilitated by it. But once I got the systems a little symptoms a bit more under control, I was realizing that, you know, OCD is so primarily fear based and it those that noise would be keeping me away from something. It's just trying to prevent something bad. But the gut instinct feels a bit more like drawing me towards something good. So one's running away from and one is running to. So the running to I've determined to be a bit more of that intuitive feeling. And it also feel the OCD feeling feels so like tightly up in my chest, but the intuition feels more down in my stomach. Like it's a more grounded feeling. Again, I think it takes a lot of like distance and having a more mindful practice to like get in touch with your body again and tell when feelings are different. But once you're there, I think fear feels a little bit different than that intuitive urge.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah. For me, sometimes intuition, it's a knowing ICD is very much a doubt.

[B]

Yeah. Okay.

[A]

That they see.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

That's what the key the, the real big intuitional, if that's a word, moments for me.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I almost haven't been fearful. It's been like, no, no, this is the truth. Like I was certain. It doesn't mean you can't be fearful and have intuition because if your intuition is this person's bad, you might also have adrenaline and anxiety.

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

But ocd? I don't know. Maybe it's. There's no evidence and it's like this just random doubt coming up which is less intuition and more just ocd.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I don't know. It's definitely not my area of expertise.

[B]

But I know that makes. That's an important delineation to the doubt versus the knowing. That definitely resonates with me. That makes sense.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah, yeah. I mean I think it's definitely a great area for psychology to study from a scientific perspective. Stand intuition.

[B]

Yeah. That would be fascinating.

[A]

Yeah. And what was I going to say? Yeah. I'm probably bringing this up because of your trade skill set. I'm just assuming you're a fan of Jane Goodall.

[B]

Oh my goodness. Yes. She. She died like a week before my wedding and it was such awful timing. Yeah. Huge Jane Goodall fan. Would love to chat. Jane Goodall.

[A]

Yeah. Okay, great. So, yeah, she. I think I love her. I think she's. She's wonderful. And she. I'm sure you saw that Netflix interview she did.

[B]

I'm not sure.

[A]

Oh, check it out. It's on Netflix. It came out like a week after she died or something, or a couple weeks or a month after. Yeah, they interviewed her. She. I assume she knew she was coming to end of her life or maybe knew she was gonna die fairly soon. So she did the interview and agreed for it to be released once she died.

[B]

I've seen the excerpts of it on Instagram. Yes, I know what you're talking about.

[A]

It's a really interesting concept because it's like, I'll say what I want because I'll be dead, and, you know, I don't have to deal with the fallout. So you get a much more honest conversation.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Anyway, in that she says she talks about there's no reason for anyone to be bored. And she. She talks about this idea. I could be getting that wrong, but that's from memory. She talks about being in an airport and seeing this one bird.

[B]

Whatever.

[A]

Whatever bird it was, it was inside the airport for some reason, and she was watching it, and it was swooping down, kept trying to get this piece of food to feed. I think its girlfriend or something. This is what she. And. And she said it kept swooping down for, like, 10 minutes trying to get it. And every time it got close, you know, someone walked past and it's scared of. And.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And. And she said she was watching, like, this drama unfolding, and she just saw people with their heads and their phones just obliviously walking past it. And she said for 15 minutes, she was just completely immersed in this drama that was happening.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

She gave another example, and that came to a mind in what you said. When you go out in nature, you don't have your phone and. And your. The IC Part of our brain went, well, what happens if you get in danger? But that's a whole different worry. But I guess you could have it on airplane mode on you. But. Yeah, where am I going with this? Yeah, you said about just noticing what's around you. Are you just really observing and noticing everything that's happening and not just being mindful in the sense of, oh, look at the trees moving, but you doing almost like a Jane Goodall in that, Noticing the dramas that are happening around?

[B]

Yeah, absolutely. I hope to. I mean, sometimes, unfortunately, there aren't, like, you know, huge animal displays going on to watch, but when there are, it's fascinating. And one of my favorite practices in the morning that I've been doing for about a year now, which I learned from a book about Druids, I really enjoyed reading about the ancient druids and their, you know, nature, spirituality and animism. It has brought a lot more sense to OCD inclinations that I have and why it might be more of an innate feeling I can reframe positively rather than attributing it to ocd. But yes, I love to go outside in the morning and take five minutes and sit and just watch. And oftentimes it's the, it'll be the same time every morning and it'll be the squirrels running by on the trees. And you're so used to that in day to day life. But if you actually sit and watch and you see one going from one branch to the other and then another two follow and maybe one falls down and climbs back up like, it's fascinating. And you, like Jane Goodall, did you become so immersed in that world? And the feeling that I usually get when watching those things is like I could be worried about a million different things than I usually am. But to these three squirrels, it is just another day where they're running along the tree and like everything is perfectly fine. And like there does exist this world right now with like sentient living beings where it's just enough to be out here in the woods feeling the sunshine and life goes on. And that is such a profoundly peaceful feeling when you have it. So, yeah, I really enjoy trying to watch the animals around. Fortunately, I live at the beach, so I'll spend a lot of time out at the beach just watching the birds fly over and the waves come in. But even if there aren't animals around and you're in an apartment and it's just a couple trees outside, if you get a minute to sit and look at the tree and maybe you notice an insect on it, or maybe you think about like this Tree will spend 105 years exactly in this one place and the tree is okay with it. You know, we're always moving that I guess it's different for everybody. And you're probably realizing that I could talk about this forever and ever, so I'll try not to. But yeah, I think that it's, that's more impactful than people realize. Just sitting and taking the time to watch another life around you and not people watching, that's usually inherently very stressful and secondhand embarrassing. But watching wildlife where they're not worried about any of the things we're worried about.

[A]

Yeah, that's interesting. Yeah. Weirdly, like, because I met up with a friend today. We meet every. I see him throughout the year, but every December we'll meet for lunch and just about an hour away from where I am. And we always go to the same restaurant. And in the parking lot, these two great big ferns, fern trees and beautiful trees. And I just. I don't know, I saw it today and thought, that's been here this whole year. I've been moving around, if that stayed in the same place. But yet it's. I can't. I don't know, it's lived or it's grown or it's changed. There's something. It was just.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

That kind of epiphany came to me.

[B]

Yeah. Gives me chills to think about. Yeah.

[A]

Like. Yeah, I don't know.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I don't know my point. But there's. There was something there in a felt sense, you know?

[B]

Absolutely. Yeah, It's. It's a felt piece. And it's cool, too, because maybe you'll notice, you know, while. While they're growing and if you only see them once a year, the branch is shaped a little bit differently or a little bit longer. And if you think about it, it's like, well, it must be. It's always been growing then. It's not like one day the tree, you know, you go to bed and you wake up and the tree is a foot longer on its branch. It's been growing and moving the entire time, but just so slowly that we can't even see it. So that's really cool to notice, too.

[A]

Yeah, absolutely. And, yeah, like. Like you said about mindfulness. Mindfulness often is about anchoring on something, you know, your breath or what you see around you. And.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah.

[A]

I guess in your nature walks, you're noticing what is around you and it's pulling you. Because I remember I used to. When I first started going into nature. Well, always in nature, growing up. But, like, more from a mental health perspective, I hadn't quite got my OCD under control, and actually nature became this horrible experience because really, it was like a. Yeah, it was like a silent echo chamber for me. But that's because I wasn't being mindful.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I was just going in nature and expecting nature to work for me instead of being like, no, let me engage with nature, you know?

[B]

Yeah, I see.

[A]

So it wasn't until I learned mindfulness and stuff that nature actually became a really pleasant, helpful thing for my mental health. So. So, yeah, I think it's important to just Iterate what you're doing of anchoring on what you're noticing, actively engaging and bringing your attention back to the here and now. Because no doubt at times your mind will wander off back to a worry or something else.

[B]

Yeah, sure. That's a really interesting distinction. I never even thought about that. But, yeah, I guess for a lot of folks that might have to be something that's learned, like how to find peace in nature if it's not something that you're familiar with.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, I definitely had it growing up. But then when. When at that point in my life, I was just so in my head though. I just expected. Oh, I just remember one cabin trip I took myself out for a few days. There was no cell reception, so it was like I had no contact with anyone. It was in a quite isolated. There were people around, but it wasn't busy at all. And that was like, I didn't have any skills, you know, mental health skills. So it was like. Yeah, it was. It was the wrong decision for me. But. So, yeah, that's interesting what you say. And obviously, like, you know, you've got a dog, I've got a cat. Sometimes I'll look at my cat and be like, if I'm stressing about something, it's like, this cat does not care what I'm worried about.

[B]

Yeah, it's just.

[A]

It's totally what it can hunt in the home or.

[B]

Exactly. Yeah. Being able to watch somebody else who's present, like a dog or a cat makes. Makes a huge difference. I definitely agree. But it's important too. I. What you were saying made me think, you know, about it being a silent echo chamber for your thoughts. I think that's something that I only realized in the past few years too, was that I had to find a way to be okay with just hearing my thoughts. Like, it's so easy in today's day and age to just constantly be listening to a podcast or watching a show or listening to music. And like, you never actually hear your own thoughts. I mean, people post their Spotify wrapped this time of year every year, and I'm like, I can't believe how much time. I'm like, you are never alone with your own thoughts if you're always hearing that in your headphones. So I. And that's very scary when you're dealing with anything, especially including ocd, to think about just being alone with your own thoughts. But you have to find times to do it if you want to ever get to the other side of, like, having that inner peace. Because you can't just ignoring it and distracting from it is never going to work. And that's kind of what our society pushes, is just ignore, distract. I mean, our entire parents generation who never went to therapy just constantly does that. Not all of them. I'm giving a generalization, but you know what I'm saying. So I think it's takes a lot of courage and strength to sit with your own thoughts and try to process through them, but it is necessary to actually get to the other side.

[A]

So tell us about your book, if you. Anything else you want to say on it?

[B]

Yeah, sure, I'd be happy to. The book has a penguin on the front cover because my specialty is Antarctic penguins. That's what I mostly studied in my career. And it was really cool because I had, oh, excuse me, I just dropped it on the ground. But I had a woman message me who ordered the book, who I'd never met before. And I asked her how she'd found it because, you know, I'm not paying for advertising or anything like that. And she said that she just loved penguins and she'd always suffered from ocd. And she Google searched, like OCD and penguins, and it came right up. And I was like, wow, you're like the exact 1% of the population who could really resonate with this. Which was really cool to see. It's amazing how the Internet can connect us in that way with people who have such niche overlaps. But yeah, I really just tried to make it something that would be helpful for people if they are in any way like me. I felt I wrote the first part going through what OCD looked like as a kid, and I thought that that might be really helpful for people who have a child or a loved one suffering from OCD to. So they could better understand it and have a bit more empathy. And I wrote about, you know, the medications I took, the side effects of it, what I liked about it, what I didn't like about it, and the ways that it, you know, really negatively impacted childhood to be kind of secretly suffering from ocd. And then I wrote about what it's like in adulthood where I found out it's a lot more insidious, you know, because it's not very obvious, but it does impact my relationships. Relationship OCD is a thing. It impacts my career, usually positively, but something to be aware of, of, you know, that obsession and fixation on tasks is very evident when I'm arguing. You know, there are all sorts of times where OCD comes up. It's impacted, you know, My relationship with my body. So I talk about that too. And it's not all negative, but just something to be aware of and realize. So that's the first half of the book is me kind of trying to say I've been largely successful in my career. I'm happy with where I am today. Here's what it looks like on the inside. So you are not alone. If you're suffering from these things too. You can still have a successful life in your own eyes. And then the second half of the book is the self help guide. Going through things that work for me. A lot of, you know, I talk about nature, spirituality and tarot and other things, but also all sorts of other things that have helped for me and how trying to reframe the OCD has been helpful. So, for instance, like, knocking on wood was a huge part of my ocd, but I read about where that came from with people. One of the reasons was, you know, an ancient civilization of people believed in tree spirits and they would knock on the trees twice to let the tree spirit know that they were in the woods and kind of ask for their protection. So if I'm doing that, that feels a lot better in my mind than just like me knocking on a pencil to try and jinx a thought that I had. It makes a lot more sense to me. Or reading about animism, you know, part something in OCD that I think isn't so much talked about, but I think was part of it for me was I would really worry about my stuffed animals as a kid and how they felt and rearranging them in their family groups and really feeling the emotions of even inanimate objects. There are all sorts of civilizations that believe in animism and a life essence and everything. So if I can have an appreciation for the world around me in that way, instead of viewing it as this obsessive fear I have, where I need to make sure that, you know, objects, feelings, don't get hurt or I don't step on the plant. Anyway, those sorts of ways of reframing these instincts you have maybe as something innate and that can be seen beautifully, rather than you thinking of it as this sickly part of your mind, has been hugely helpful for me. And then I put some journal prompts in there too, which were things that different therapists have suggested to me in my life that were really useful. But the point is just for those times when you don't have an OCD specialist therapist helping you out and you're going to need to help yourself so I put it out there, so hopefully it would be useful for people during those times.

[A]

Nice. Yeah. Awesome. And I'll put a link in the show notes for anyone that wants to check it out. So just. So I'm guessing because you've studied Antarctic penguins, I'm guessing you've been to Antarctica.

[B]

I have a couple times, yeah.

[A]

What's it, what's it like?

[B]

Incredible.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Absolutely frigid. It's really beautiful and absolutely stunning and unlike anything else I could ever even imagine. And yeah, I think what was so incredible about it to me was just how enduring it is. Like, it's this vast landscape that looks like it could possibly never change, even though of course we know it is with climate change. But it's so enduring and so hostile too. You know, I think we've talked a lot about nature in this episode. There are times where I've been out in nature and probably you too, and it almost feels like the woods love you back or, you know, maybe a wave pushes you in the direction you need to go and it feels like the wave helped you out. Whether it did or not, that's how it feels. Antarctica is not like that. Like, Antarctica does not care whether you live or die. There were multiple times where I felt like I was, you know, if I hadn't gotten out more quickly, I could have succumbed to the elements, which is very humbling. And then there's this wildlife there, like the Weddell seals I saw or the Adelie penguins I saw, whose lives are so, so, so brutal, like the Weddell seals, that the sea ice cracks and they spend pretty much all of the winter under the sea ice. And in the summer they come up into these cracks and they use their teeth to gnaw holes in it. And then they catapult their 600 pound bodies out of these holes and then they just give birth on the sea ice in this negative 40 windchill and lay there with their pups and watching them like they. I don't think they ever think, oh, this sucks, life is tough. You know, it's just how they are. And there are moments of joy and there's such pure love that brought me to tears many times between these moms and their pups. So I think it's. That contrast is unlike any other of being in this, like, brutal place that could kill you in an instant. And then there are these animals who just endure it and have fun and love each other the way anybody else does.

[A]

Yeah, it was a good, good metaphor for life, right?

[B]

Yeah, yeah, it absolutely was.

[A]

So let me think. So the Antarctica. All right, cool. So I'll switch my other questions. Just words of hope for anyone listening. What. What would you tell them?

[B]

Great question. Yeah, I think. I think it's very easy in today's day and age to feel inundated by everything heavy around us and to feel like it's the end of the world. But a realization that I had that I hope will help others is that anyone who's alive today has to come from a very strong bloodline. You know, people who have survived wars and famines and floods and natural disasters and all sorts of the other terrible, heartbreaking things that have happened in. So the blood of all those people is still within you. We all come from warriors and fighters and survivors. So I think it's important to realize that OCD does not have to be the biggest battle you face in your life. And just because you're alive today, you already inherently have what it takes to get past OCD or at least to a place where your life can be more enjoyable. And you do very much deserve to enjoy this life to the best that you can and that, you know, seeking help and asking for help is a very brave thing and actually helps you be of more service to the people around you in your life. So anyone listening today already being interested in learning more about OCD and treatment, that's a huge win. And keeping going with it is a brave and wonderful thing to do.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, Good words. And you pick up the phone, call the 20 year old you. What'd you tell her?

[B]

Oh, man, Stu, you're asking the tough questions. You know, I think every time I have a major milestone in my life, you know, and like this year I turned 30, I got married. That's a lot of all of a sudden, like, whoa, I'm an adult. I think every time I reach a major milestone, I wish that I could go back to younger versions of me and just say, you don't have to worry so much, like, things really are going to be okay. My dad always tells me things work out, just never in the way that you expect. But one of my biggest regrets in life is how much time I've spent worrying when really things turn out okay. And there's so much to celebrate and be grateful for.

[A]

Absolutely. And you've kind of talked about this already, but ask it more directly. In your years of studying the penguins, what have they taught you about life?

[B]

That's a really good question. They've. I think when I watch other animals, very rarely do I watch them be Afraid, like, unless a predator is coming and it's the animal's final moments. But very rarely do I see an animal such as a penguin constantly living in the face of danger in a moment where I say, oh, he looks really scared. She looks really worried. So I think that watching penguins and other animals has taught me to enjoy every single day and that there is. There is something so much greater than us that exists. And I don't exactly know what it is, but there is. There is a knowing beyond what we can perceive. And I think they teach me to have the faith and enough faith in the future to know that it's okay to enjoy the present without so much fear of what tomorrow holds, you know? No. Nobody else, except for humankind and seems to have this deep fear. And I honestly kind of think other animals are more evolved than we are because of that is, you know, my belief in it. So living with less fear and having enough faith in whatever it is you have faith in to know that you're safe to enjoy the present moment and that that's your given. Right.

[A]

Yeah, I like that. Nice. And you got a billboard maybe in the Antarctic. What do you want to written on that billboard or in North Carolina? Up to you.

[B]

Stop krill fishing. That's what I would like. There's a krill industry just devastating the Southern Ocean right now. It's completely needless products. If anybody is listening, they sell krill as like an omega 3 oil for a less fishy burp. When if you're worried about Omega 3s, you could take flax seed or algal oil and also to put in pet food and to feed farmed salmon, which is another thing we don't need to be eating. So my huge billboard, but I'm. As a metaphor for really, what I'm trying to do with my actual work right now is to halt the krill fishery. That would be on my Antarctic billboard.

[A]

Okay, good. Good awareness there. So krill is a fish.

[B]

Krill is a little crustacean that looks a lot like shrimp. I mean, it's tiny and whales eat it, and they're just taking hundreds of thousands of tons of it every year to squeeze the oil out and put in pet food. I mean, it's just a. When you see pictures of these huge super trawl. It came up in David Attenborough's oceans documentary this year. It's some media attention. But, yeah, these huge super trawlers in the most remote areas at the bottom of the earth, just taking everything that they can. A completely needless industry, I think is a pretty stark image of what's happening with corporations today.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, good, good awareness. So that's not in a regular. Omega 3 doesn't use that, if that makes sense. So my free supplement wouldn't have krill in it or would it?

[B]

Not if it says fish oil. No, because krill is not a fish. I mean, I, I encourage everyone to use plant based alternatives. I think that that's much kinder. You know, every fishery has a host of issues and by catch. But yeah, it will say. It will say krill on it if it has krill oil.

[A]

Okay. Yeah, yeah, I don't really. I'm sure it is in the uk, but I've never really seen that. So I don't know, maybe we don't use it as much or maybe we do and call it something else. I don't know.

[B]

There is. It's not hugely popular yet, but thanks to the efforts of Sea shepherd, there was a huge UK retailer that just promised to stop selling Holland and Barrett. Yeah, it's like a health. So they.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Yes. So they just came out and said because of all the sustainability issues and the lack of transparency, we're just not selling krill anymore and we're hoping that a lot more major retailers will follow suit soon too.

[A]

Excellent. All right, nice. And yeah, lastly, anything else you wish you could have said or shared today?

[B]

No, I feel pretty good about where we're at. Yeah. I'm very grateful for the opportunity to be here today. It's been wonderful chatting with you and learning so many of the overlaps we have too has been fascinating. I don't actually have many live conversations with people who have also struggled with ocd, so this was really enjoyable. Thank you.

[A]

Yeah, no, thank you. It was enjoyable for me too. And yeah, great to hear your story and I'm glad you're obviously doing better and well.

[B]

Thank you.

[A]

Thank you for listening to this week's podcast and thank you to our Patreons who helped make this episode possible. And if you would like to find out more about Patreon and the rewards and benefits, then there will be a link in the episode description. If you enjoy the OCD Stories podcast and would like to support us, please subscribe and rate the show wherever you listen to the podcast. And thank you to NOCD for supporting our work. If you want to find out more about nocd, you can click the link in the episode description and quick disclaimer. Guys, this podcast is not therapy. It is not a replacement for therapy. Please seek treatment from a trained professional. And until we speak, take care.