A (3:23)

Yeah, thank you for that. I appreciate it.

B (3:26)

Yeah. Okay, so my story. All right, so I grew up in foster care. My childhood was mostly, to say the least. But I was always very inquisitive and had a lot of questions. So I vividly remember being maybe four or five and asking, you know, a question that I'm sure a lot of kids asking my foster mother, like, why is the sky blue? And it's a very simple question and generally you get a very simple answer and the answer was given to me. But then there's of course a follow up question, well, why is that the answer? And no matter what answer would come, I always had to wonder why. And from the very beginning, I guess that's been my nature. You want to dig deeper. And yeah, going through that process in my life as a young child and growing up, it has manifested in many different ways and ultimately arriving at me having ocd. The first I say really troubling incidence of OCD was in America. We have this, they're saying as a kid, like, step on the crack, break your mother's back or whatever. And so I used to spend time walking home from like middle school, avoiding all the cracks all the way home because I was afraid if I stepped on a crack, something bad was going to happen to my foster mother. Another thing that I recognize, OCD now that I did not recognize at the time on the streets here. And I'm sure in other countries they have these great. I guess they're like air vents that come up from the sewer. And as a child I would always walk around these grapes because in my mind I would see myself walking over them and following it and falling into the great. And I didn't want to fall into that damn great. So I was walking the hell around. It's only later, as I've gotten understanding in context, that I recognized that that's compulsive behavior. And I was building in the mechanisms that would later foster the feeds of my ocd. And so that's like the Younger version of what I experienced. But the first actual OCD experience that I had, and the one that stuck with me for the longest period of time is I was 19 and I was in college and I was walking through a mall and I remember there were some girls there. I remember looking at the girls and I had on a really nice outfit this day, I thought. And something just popped in my mind along the lines of, they think you're gay. And I'm like. And it's an internal dialogue. I'm like, why would they think that? So I sort of straightened up my stance and changed how I was standing just to be like, nah, you know? And that is the moment when I began my struggle with homosexual gay ocd. Or some people call it age of ocd. As a personal preference, I call it gay OCD or homosexuality because to me, that shows the irrelevance of the thought or of the concept. And I do that with any type of OCD that I deal with. I just flatly state what it is, because. And being dismissive in that way, it truly demonstrates my brain that I am not afraid. And so I. Okay, but that's when the struggle with gay OCD started. And additionally, throughout my teenage and early year adult years, I had a lot of existential stuff that I was dealing with. And of course I didn't know it's opd. I just knew that I felt a certain type of way and I had things that I did around those types of food. So I had real trouble with stuff. Like they say that the universe is expanding. Like, you know, it's expanding outward, it's going on. But my brain is like, where the hell is it expanded to like, what? How can the universe be expanding? Where is it going? What's outside of the universe? So I spent time like reading all type of philosophy and science. Not that it wasn't interesting, because it was. But in pursuit of resolving the discomfort associated with not knowing what the hell is going on, essentially. And that was a big one. And I've dealt with a lot of somatic stuff over the years as well. In particular things around noticing my blinking and noticing my breathing and being aware. But it. But just being aware are hyper aware of the fact that I'm alive and those feelings and experiences. And yeah, so that's those type of OCD that I've experienced a lot. And I even had ocd. And I didn't learn about these particular ones until I got in the group and got some references. But like, okay, I had contamination ocd. I didn't even know it. Like, I will go to. I used to go to gas stations and I would never take the top cup or anywhere, and I would never take the top lid. I would have to take one, like six or seven levels, you know, below, because those ones nobody touched for sure. Because it's like, who's gonna touch the six cup? I'm like, removing cups off the top of the damn cup to get a cup underneath. And. But to me, it was normal. It was how I live my life. It was regular, and I didn't see anything wrong with. I also had. And maybe this might be called just right OCD or know, I'm not sure how you qualify, but when I would go to do something like even sitting right now, I'm sitting facing straight to my computer, I would have to angle myself because I had a discomfort with feeling like somebody's going to come from behind me and do something to me and attack me or hurt me. But maybe it wasn't so clear as to what the threat was. But it's just like, you have to turn your chair, bro. It's not safe to sit like this. And that's the more OCD experiences that I had. And I struggled mightily with all of these for a really long time. So I would say as a child, it didn't bother me. It did bother me, but it wasn't such a problem. I guess in the same way as from my teenage years through adulthood, I. I struggled maybe 20 plus years with OCD and undiagnosed, as well as some other mental health issues associated with coronavirus, major depressive disorder and what have you. But at 38, so just a few years ago, I'm 41 now. I got into therapy, and it's the most beautiful, transformative shift that has happened to me ever in my experience. And I advocate it for anyone and everyone to go to and get into therapy. I will end this segment and I no longer struggle with OCD on a daily basis in the way that I did. And I believe that recovery is possible for everybody. Everybody. You don't have to spend your life suffering if you take nothing else, if you listen to nothing else, you can get better. Everybody can get better. And I believe that through and through. Yeah, yeah.

A (11:50)

Good words, Good words. So thank you for sharing that and all the themes and everything. And what would you say over the years was like, the. The dominant theme for you or the one that caused you the most problems?

B (12:05)

Oh, without a doubt. Yeah, without a doubt.

A (12:08)

Okay.

B (12:08)

That was crazy. So, all right. At one point, I was like, all right, bro, I guess I'm just gonna be gay. That's fine. Whatever. I'm just about to go be gay. And I say, this must be with my brain, my body. I'm just gay, and I can't come out of call it, and it's a secret. And it. And I went to sleep today, and I woke up the next day prepared to live my gay life, and my brain was all. My brain was like. And I remember that vividly. But what about that time you kissed a girl? You know what I'm saying? All right, bro, I just tried to go. But in. In retrospect, I recognized, okay, it wasn't even about my sexuality at all. It was about the back and forth between the fear. I'll say fear, but. It was a fear. But. And the. The. This is about the back and forth between the fear, the polarization of the fear, and how the game of engaging with the thought was what it was really about. And my brain was seeking safety through this process. And as I got into therapy and gained understanding how to. Well, I could call it depolarize the thought. It has been transformative and changed the entire way that I go through my process, and it's been absolutely wonderful and beautiful. But, yeah, I had some pretty crazy. But I had some empathy. Okay, they were crazy to me, but compulsions around it, like, I couldn't sit certain ways. Like, I couldn't hold my hand certain ways. All right, bro. Like, if I was, like, sitting at somewhere, like, waiting at a doctor's office and a dude came sat next to me, my brain would just start firing up, like, why the hell you come sitting next to you? He thinks you like him. It was just going. And, yeah, I. I would have to do all types of, you know, adjustments to my posture to make sure it stood up straight, make sure, you know, all right, now everybody know, you know for sure. Definitely not gay. You see, I'm like, yeah, but that was the most dominant one. I did have some existential. Really, really bad. And that was very scary. Right? Is that the one with God? You know, you feel like you're go. Yeah, you know, I started feeling like I was God, which was a crazy way to feel like, you know, like you were God. And if you tricked yourself and that you were just the only person alive and everybody else, but, you know, it actually. And this is also why I got into, like, philosophy, because I was looking for a way to definitively determine that these things I believe to be the case, and I be the case but philosophy doesn't give you that at all. It's like, it could be true. Yeah, it could be like, you know, you could be a brain in a vat right now or a program and a computer. You know, you could be any of that. You can't disprove it. And the solution. Well, okay, there's two solutions, but the. The first solution is acceptance and learning that process. So if you want, I can start talking about my recovery process. So I. And I'm going to mention people that help me, so hopefully anybody listening people can help them. It got really bad. I was having harm ocd and start. I might get a little emotional, but that's okay because expression of my feelings is something that I do now in a much more healthy and productive way. But, yeah, it got really bad because due to my harm ocd, I had a. I have a five now, but he was maybe two at the time. And I started seeing myself taking a knife and stabbing him with it. And that's when I was like, all right, yo. Because I hadn't really had harm OCD to that degree before, but, like, I don't know what the is going on, but I gotta get some. Figure this out. And I had already been, you know, diagnosed with major preventive disorder, but LCD was still on diagnosis, just like, you know, anxiety. But then I just went to YouTube and typed, like, having thoughts of stabbing someone, but I don't want to stab them or something to that effect. And this came up. Okay, is it okay if I mention people? Okay. And you should get him. Talk to him if you can find him. I'm telling you, he's like the practitioner that. His name is Mark Freeman. I don't know if you heard of him or not.

A (16:54)

Yeah.

B (16:55)

Oh, yeah, yeah. Mark is amazing. Yeah. Oh, my God. Yes. Really good, really thorough. And that was like, the first anchor in my recovery process. I bought his book, you are not a Rock. Yeah. And I read it twice. The first time I read it, I was trying to get rid of opd. The second time I read it, I wasn't. And there's a difference between those two readings and what you take from it and what you learn. And so Mark was the first person would, like, the first time that I was informed that, oh, no, this is ocd, because I didn't have a reference for what OCD was. Unfortunately, in my environment, where I come from, it's often not a lot of education around mental health. And, you know, like, all I had for OCD was like, monk, you know, like that. And I'm like, I'm not washing my hands all the. I know it's very cliche, but that's what people think when they don't have the understanding education. You don't even know about hero ruination as a compulsion. And so I said I found Mark. And that shit was like amazing. But then of course, you know what I did? As soon as I found Mark, I'm watching all the videos, I'm going compulsively like, all right. And then I start developing a plan. This is how the. I got to get better. I got to do this and I got to do this. And I got. And I started assessing and composing around my recovery process. But Mark was the first person that I saw that was speaking about things that I was experiencing and saying, it is possible for you to recover, it is possible for these things to change. And all I need generally is in life, if somebody tell me that it's possible and I can follow that roadmap and come behind them and find my way. So I found Mark, I got his book and I started reading and he has a lot of great exercises in there that you can do as you're going through the recovery process and do the exercises. Generally, the process to change from how you are today to how you want to be in the future is daunting. No matter what the you're trying to do, you're trying to lose 50 pounds, it's hard. If you trying to get a college degree, it takes four years, you know what I'm saying? It's not going to happen overnight, it's not going to happen tomorrow. And when we are deep in suffering with ocd, we want it to be gone immediately. And when we engage in compulsive behaviors is gone immediately, but not really. It's really perpetuating the cycle. But for a time there is fees. And that breaking out of that process and finding the long term recovery solution and learning the technical aspects of how to do it is instrumental in recovery. So Mark was the first person that helped me on my recovery journey and who credit him a lot with how I got started. So from there I. I don't remember the exact process, but I had already started building my hierarchy. You know, I'm very good student, like, so I'm just building out my hierarchy and I'm thinking of all the things that could be composers, probably writing down that wasn't a composing, but whatever. And then I also started seeing my own therapist, OCD therapist, and she was very helpful and going through that process and yeah, so here's what I would say about the recovery process, the ERP and I do want to talk about Michael Greenberg, Dr. Michael Greenberg and his approach. So this is what I'll share with people regarding Michael. Dr. My. Greenberg. He's incredible, right? He is incredible. But. And this is just my personal story, correct me if I'm wrong. This, because I had gay ocd, and my brain's like, oh, no. Gay ocd. You know what I'm saying? And it's like projecting it on him. And it's like, his name's Mike. My name's Mike. I guess that's my guy. Like, you know, it's so funny how these things work. But. But I went to. Okay, so. Because it's so hard to understand, at least from my perspective, what the is rumination. That's, like, very difficult when you're starting to recover because it's a. It's not tangible. It's an abstract behavior that we engage with mentally. You know. What Dr. Michael Greenberg has written is for me the clearest and the best resource for understanding rumination and how to navigate it and how to engage with it and not engage with it. He explained it in depth, in over, like, I don't even know how many articles. Maybe 30 last time I checked. And I read all of them multiple times, too. But again, the same process as I'm. As I'm going through it, I'm like, ah, I gotta get better. How do I stop this? Help, Mike, help. And then, you know, I. And then I go. But then when I finally settle down, I'm able to read it with understanding and openness and awareness. It's like, okay. And it's the best hit for understanding rumination and getting clarity in that regard. Very, very good. Very, very good. And he has a lot of videos where he describes the process, and it's exactly like he explains it. The way you stop thinking about a thing is the same way you stop trying to solve a math problem. You just stop. And that's it. What I did for practice in my head, to just show myself that I can stop, I just would start saying my ABCs ABCD internally, like. And then I would just stop at a given point. And that's all I did. And that's how I showed myself that I could choose to think about a thing and then stop thinking about a thing. Now, sometimes, even as I say this now, like, in the background of my head, my. It's going abcd. You know what I mean? But it's like, all right. But it's going, but I'm, I'm diverting my attention away back to you. And so that piece was very important to me. And then of course Dr. Steven Philipson has the choice article and that is incredible. You have to read, you don't have to. But I would strongly suggest you read his choice article because it clearly outline what OCD is and what the recovery process looks like and how she'd go through that process and maybe like so, like, okay, like as a practitioner, Mark Freeman for rumination specifically and how to work on that component, Dr. Michael Greenberg and to bridge the gap between the two and overall encompassing ideology around it. Yeah. Dr. Steven Silverson's choice article is amazing and it was so helpful and he was very. And then. Okay, so. And I'll get to Dr. Michael Al in a second because I've seen him as a one on one therapist. I'll talk about him in a second. But I want to talk about some books that were also very helpful for me. Yeah, okay. So I mentioned Mark Freeman, you're not a rock. But there's also, and this is like a book from the 70s, a couple books from the 70s, actually. Hope and Healing for your Nervous System by Dr. Claire Week. That is a beautiful book. And you may not think it all pertains to ocd. It's not even, it's just about anxiety disorder mostly, but it gives you a overview of how to address a dysregulated nervous system. And it's really, really good. He introduced me to this, to the concept he calls floating. We have different answers now, but it's just where, you know, you experience a difficult feeling or thought or anxiety and you float past it like, you know, you let it be in the background and you continue on with your daily life. And that's like the basis for how you navigate around difficult and more trying feeling. So her book was really good and it was very instrumental early on in my recovery. Then also Dr. And this is probably foundational for me, but Dr. Albert Ellis has How to stubbornly Refuse. How to Stubborn. He has a long ass title. How to stubbornly refuse to upset yourself for anything. Seriously, something like that. But he introduces ReBT in the book Rational Emotive Behavior Therapy. And that is incredible. It's very useful. I highly recommend the book. I believe rebt, don't quote me on this, but I believe it's like came up around the same time as CBT and there's a lot of similarities in them. And what I like about this book, it has a lot of Exercises for you to do. And I believe wholeheartedly in doing exercises where you take what's in your internal experience, what you think the Aztec, and you put it on paper and you write it out and you see and then you can sort. You can pot a plan and figure out how the. Do I move forward from where I'm at today, where I'm trying to be in the future. Otherwise if you keep that all in your head, it's gonna get jumbled, mixed up. Your brain gonna throw in some emotions, some feelings, and it's gonna change your. The up and you're gonna be all discombobulated. So I highly recommend journaling if they do have anything else I wanted to touch on. Of course, man. Search for meaning. Everybody read that beautiful book. That. And just in terms of giving you perspective and dealing with suffering. And Victor Frankl. Nothing. Sort of a genius. And then the happiness. Happiness trap. Russia, I believe. Yeah, yeah. That's act, excitement and commitment therapy. And that's a beautiful intro to those concepts and ideas which all play a part. Yeah. And that's pretty much it. There is a couple. Okay. No, so I do want to talk about Dr. Michael Ali. I heard him on your program and I just love the shit he was talking about, bro. Like, okay, yes, there's ocd, but then there's this other creative underlining component that's associated with it.

A (27:12)

Yeah.

B (27:13)

And let's see how we can navigate and deal with that, the psychodynamic element of it, and find our way through as we go through that and how they relate. And as we heal one, we can heal, Learn to heal and work the other. And I've talked to him on several different occasions. He was very instrumental for me in a difficult time of my life. And I'm eternally grateful for him and all he's done. And I think he's being first of all, I think all these people another. So I don't know how people figure this shit the fuck out. To be frank, I was like suffering for years on my own. I don't know who started writing it down. I don't know who the fuck started. I don't. I have no clue. But I'm so grateful. I'm so grateful for all that everybody has done and if nothing else, that it has helped me. And I hope, and I come here with the hope that today I can pay it forward. And maybe somebody's listening who doesn't think that it will get better or think they'll suffer, for I could suffer forever. And I want them to know. You don't have to, you don't, you don't have to struggle with this every day. I don't struggle with gay OCD every day. I don't now my brain can still abstract the penis randomly if it wants to. It could do that. I don't have nothing to say about that. And it might do it. It's fine right now, maybe, I don't know. But I'm not going to pay attention. I'm gonna come back to what matters to me. And that's how we navigate those spots. What you recognize over time is you. You have to, you, you, you will build into the thought, but it's just a fuzzy thing on peripheral of your internal landscape. But when you pick that up and start with it and messing with it, it becomes more of a tangible real object and gets heavier and heavier and heavier. And so as you go through your practice and you learn, you learn how to not pick those things up that don't have any meaning. Or even better, you can pick them up at your discretion just to see and then drop them down. You realize whenever you at your description, it's a, it's just like the way I describe it to people, like how do you open and close your hand? You know, like how do you do it? You know, it's like I don't, I know how to do it but I can't tell you how I do it. But I'm able to open and close it at will. I can take up this water bottle at will. I can pick up these notepads and I can use my mind and pick up a random thought and I can also put that thought down in the same one. So that's how I like to look at it. Yeah. And. Oh, one more. Emma McAdams therapy in a nutshell. I don't know if you heard of her, but she has a 30 day anxiety course online. The therapy in a nutshell. Anybody with anxiety, I recommend you listen to it. She does, it's very good. This has a lot of ac acc themed ideas like physicalizing, physicalizing emotions and stuff like that. And I would just walk and listen to her 15 minute, 20 minute videos and go through the 30 day and it was very, very helpful. So that's a lot. Yeah.

A (30:04)

But yeah, no, all really good resources and you've clearly, you know, you clearly put in the work and sort of advice from professionals, done the self help reading and implemented it. You said something when talking about Mark's book, which I thought was maybe a good point to Discuss, which is you said, the first time I read it I wanted to get rid of ocd. The second time I didn't. What do you mean by the second time? Like, when, when you didn't want to get rid of ocd, what had shifted? And why was that better?

B (30:37)

Yeah. Okay, so for me, part of OCD and the struggle within OCD is there's this dramatic, drastic push to do something right now we got to figure it out. We got to find a solution. We have to, we have to, we have to. And you feel the anxiety and you feel your heart racing real fast and your vision gets narrow and you feel like the prickly feelings of your back and you feel like, oh, shit, I really got to get this done. Like, and as you are being propelled through life with that type of physical and mental and internal experience, it doesn't allow for you to take a step back, breathe, do like executive function. So, like, rationally see what is actually happening. Because you're in fight or flight. Your sympathetic nervous system has been activated and you just trying to get the out of there. You're trying to find a way to find a solution to this immediate danger. And so when I first picked up this book, I'm like, I gotta get the rid of ocd. And this is how I do it. And so I'm reading it, but I'm not really reading it. I'm not internalizing, I'm not understanding. I'm just reading it to get rid of ocd. And when you do something to get rid of ocd, it doesn't get rid of ocd. It tells you and your brain and your body that, oh, no, I need to be vigilant and I need to be hyper aware of OCD at all times. And that is the enemy. I must destroy it. I must get rid of it. When I first read the book, even though I did take some information in, it was my first time reading was like, oh, no, it was like teaching me about the process. So I was. I was reading it, but I was reading it with my intention to get rid of ocd. And that obfuscated my ability to actually change the second time I read it. I had grown a lot from the first time. So maybe six months later, I had gained insight and understanding and I was no longer looking to get rid of ocd. At this point, I was an acceptance, right? I accepted the nature of the disorder. I accepted what I was experiencing. I accepted my thoughts to a degree. I still had to do some more work on that, but I had a much different outlook. And because I had that outlook and I wasn't accepted, now when I'm reading through it, I'm not. And this is kind of where it gets tricky for people because technically I am still looking for a solution. But it's not feverishly so, it's not irrational, it's not driven by fear. It's driven by a choice and a desire. And those nuances are something that you learn as you go through your recovery process. And it looks the same in terms of presentation, but in terms of what is happening internally and what is experienced, it's a whole different experience that you go through. And so, and that second mode like that is the approach that has been instrumental in recovery. Because if you struggle to try to get rid of ocd, you are perpetuating the OCD cycle. And the way I look at it is what OCD recovery really, really is about. Like at its core, core, core, it's about learning how to not do something. It's about learning how to not do something. In life. Like if we want to do a thing, like in physical world, we have to go out, put in energy, and then we do the thing. I want to build a brick wall. I go out, I start, I buy some bricks, I get some cement, I start laying the bricks and I put the semen down. That's how it works. Like if I want to create something, I have to do something. Yeah. In our minds though, if we do something, we start the creation process. And we don't want to be engaging with the creation process in relationship to our obsessive thoughts. We don't want the creation process. So we have to not engage, we have to not go at it with the, with fear as a motivator. We have to see it, understand it, and recognize it's there. And just like, no. Because as soon as you apply your brain or your thoughts or your energy to an internal experience, it's building. Because that's the nature of the thing and that's how it works. So once you sort of see that and you recognize that and you have the experiences that, oh no, this is how it works. Which is why ERP is so powerful to me. Because it gives you the experience that, oh, this is how it works and gives you an understanding. Once you see that, you can now come back to OCD and, and your recovery process with the understanding that I can't come at this with fear or with the try to find a solution. I have to come at this level headed and of my own solicit and then I Can't understand the tools that are given to me and how to navigate this space.

A (35:39)

Yeah, yeah, good point. Yeah. Doing. Especially around the compulsions, doing nothing is the goal. And that's, as you say, it's hard for our brains to grapple with that. So just go back to Michael or see for a second. So obviously, yeah, he's got that book, the upside of ocd, and he's talking about, yeah, there's all this downside of ocd, but actually it points to these creative, beautiful aspects of a person, and they all. They're really sensitive or attuned. And working with Michael, what did you. If you can share, what did you take away from working with him?

B (36:19)

Yeah, okay. Yeah, I'm gonna say this. I don't think he will be you upset with me, but I went to him and I told him my story. So I grew up in foster care, and I don't have any relationship. I never met my father in a very limited relationship with my mother. And I was just expressing to him that different things I. I went through in my life. And then at the end of the session, he's like, okay, Michael, I'm gonna be your mother for you. And I was like, what the is he talking about? You'll be my mama for me. Get the out of here. And then my gales. He's like, oh, totally gay, bro. Totally gay. You need a different therapist. And I was like, oh, nah, fuck that. I'm gonna stay with him. And then turns out he was my mother for me. So beautiful. Such a wonderful man. And I'm so grateful for having him in my life and what he extended to me and taught me and what he really showed me is to embrace the sensitive side of the ocd. And that being sensitive and attuned and caring is a gift. And we as people with OCD need to just learn how to fine tune it. And he sort of helped me learn about the fine tuning of it. And that's. That was very beautiful and forever grateful for what he told me, taught me. I look at. This is how I look at it in my mind. I put together. I love kung fu movies as a kid growing up, you know what I'm saying? Yeah. And there's one, I think, called the five fingers of death or whatever. And like, a guy would go to different schools, you know, learning about different type of kung fu, and then at the end, he ended up fighting a kung fu master. That's how I look at my OCD practice. You know, I go over here. I learned some att I go over here, I learned some dbt. I go over here, they got CBT schools, and then I go over here, they got stoicism, you know what I'm saying? I go over here and we work on psychodynamics and I bring it all together internally within me and take a little bit from everybody and make it work for myself. And I think that's another thing that when you have ocd, you have to work on developing and building it, and that's self confidence in yourself and in your ability to make decisions and being okay with the decisions not being the right decision. I know there's been times where I would lean very hard on therapists for their opinion. And ultimately it's just you inside of you and you have to trust your decisions or if you make a terrible decision, that will work out okay. Anyway, and let's bring it all the way back to Dr. Michael. Obviously he gave me great insight and invite on how to do that, how to trust myself and to be who I am, which happens to be a sensitive 210 pound black man. Whatever. I guess that's how the it goes. And I accept that and it's wonderful and I'm so grateful to him to be here for life, for everything. And yeah, yeah, that's beautiful.

A (39:16)

Yeah, thank you for sharing that. And, and it's your therapy session. You can share whatever you want from, from your work with Michael. You know, he.

B (39:24)

Okay, cool. I don't know the rules.

A (39:26)

Only, only he has to keep things confidential.

B (39:30)

Oh, you don't. I'm like, did I just break Hippo? Am I going to jail? No, no, no.

A (39:35)

You can share whatever you want. No, but that's a really, it's a really nice thing and it's a good example of how he works because he's been on the podcast, but you still don't get a feel for what people therapists are actually like in session, you know, until you hear how they are in session, which is, you know, so that's good. No, I'm glad he could help you with that. And, and yeah, I love what you said about taking things from different schools of thought because when people get dogmatic in therapy, I just, especially therapists, I just think it's silly. I think there's so much to learn and we can learn from all different types of therapy. We might have one core therapy we use, but we still got to learn from everything. So you're a good example of that. So you've already given plenty, but like words of hope for anyone listening what would you tell them?

B (40:29)

Yeah, I got so many. Listen. It will get better. It can get better. I know it sucks probably right now, depending on where you at in your journey, but it can get better. You have to do the work. And you can. In the beginning, it's scary, and it's hard and it's heavy and it's hectic. But as you go, you will build, you will grow, and you will see, oh, no, this can change. Once you see, it can change. You will build momentum, and as you build more and more momentum, you will see more and more changes, and then it will open up. I'm currently at a place today where I don't struggle with ocd. I don't not. I don't. That's not okay. So, like, what will happen to me is occasionally I will have. Not even, okay, maybe I'll call it a flare, but it's the same. And then I just apply the same tool, right? And then it thought, but you can get better. It's the long story short. And I know probably, maybe if you're listening to this, you're like, yeah, that works for Mike, but that ain't gonna work for me. Yeah, but here's the thing, bro. You already tried what you're doing, like, right? I. I can tell you I've tried to take a thought to cover up a thought I didn't like. Like, I tried. I would be afraid, and I would have to put on a cartoon. I can go to sleep at night. I've done the compulsion I used to have my light switches switched the same direction. They had to all be flipped the same direction. If so, I would know nobody came here. You know what I'm saying? If I came home and the door was unlocked, I would have to check the floor of my house, the basement of my house to the top of my house. I'm checking in cabinet and drawers. Who the is hiding in a drawer? You know what I'm saying? Who do I think been broken in my house? But that's how I had. That's what I had to do to feel comfortable. I no longer do those things anymore. I don't engage in compulsions anymore. And the freedom of time and energy is amazing. And you can do it. You can do it. Find a good support, a good group, good people, good therapists. Open up. And I speak honest and candidly about my experiences because I want you to know that I have had the same experiences. And I can relate to you. And I'll say this about support and health recovery when I started going to Dr. Felicon group. It was a very interesting experience. I walk in there and I started talking about my story or whatever. And then, yeah, and it's like, younger white lady as you. He's like, oh, yeah, I had that same experience. I'm like, what the fuck? How do we both have the same experience? You know, like, our backgrounds are dramatically different, but this particular obsession, this particular way of thinking has arrived in both of our lives. And then in that moment, I didn't feel so alone anymore. And also she told me about how she talked about how she recovered from it too. And in that moment, I had hope. And, yeah, I'm forever grateful to the group and to her for sharing those experiences. And I would say that as you recover and go through your process, you'll find other people that have recovered and went through their process, and that will give you more hope. And I don't care what your theme is, from the top of the board to the bottom of the board, it's all the same in terms of how you engage with it and how you recover from it. It's all the same thing. And for. And this is my opinion, you know, some people may actually, everybody agrees that it's called the code standard, but still, erp. Yeah, get your ass in. Someone do some erp. I know technically, okay, I think from a purely technical standpoint, you don't necessarily have to do erp. If you could just not think about the thoughts. But you can't not think about the thoughts. That's why you have to do the erp. And what ERP really did for me was it showed me that I can tolerate. Forget the thoughts, the anxiety, these very highly uncomfortable feelings. 10 out of 10 anxiety. The worst to the point where I'm on the floor, like in a ball, like, ah. Like, you know, Seriously, bro. Like, you know, yeah. And it. That's what ERP told me. After you have that experience three to five times, you're like, oh, this is the thing. This is the thing that it has to do. This is. That's it. And it's like, all right. By the fifth time, it's normalized in a way that you're like, I still ain't die, so I don't. Like, you know, and then you stop having the fear of the anxiety. And then you're able to more readily separate from the thoughts. And as you keep going and you keep growing, you get better and better day in and day out. Over time, you look back, and now, like, I look back and it's Almost like I didn't even fucking have ocd. My, my, my brain doesn't acknowledge that the, the, the depths of despair that I was in, like all the way to suicidal ideation, you know, to that level. My brain doesn't even acknowledge it to where I'm in today. And you can recover, you can get better. And, and I will say this because in some communities there is a barrier to entry, so the price of it can be expensive, but. And I'm gonna plug somebody and they say, ain't got nothing to do with you, but it just is what it is. No ocd. They got some. Their prices are not bad at all. And you can get started on no OCD if you can't find a local or someone local to you that's within your price range. And yeah, I would definitely recommend them, I guess independent, but I know they, I think you have a sponsor. I don't even know. I recommend them highly.

A (46:18)

Yeah, yeah, no, no, see, yeah, they do sponsors, podcasts, but they're, they. I have them as a sponsor for a good reason because they nuts off to, to, you know, they've increased access via health insurance in the states. It was like a tiny percentage and now it's like the majority almost. And they take all kinds of insurance, I think. Yeah, I won't, I won't name ones, but. So like they've improved access so much that people would never have had access prior. So, you know, credit to them. So I'm glad you shouted them out, you know, great words of hope. So let's say, you know, you could pick up the phone and call that was he like five, that five year old that was like asking his foster mum all those questions. What would you tell him?

B (47:03)

You about to make me cry, bro. Yeah, all right. Exactly. Okay. Yeah. Well, first I would say you are love and you're going through a journey through life and you may not understand everything now, and I promise you, you won't ever understand everything in the future, but you will grow and you will come to understand the things that are necessary for you to understand. You will learn how to let go of the things that don't have the answers that you see. And it's going to those look copy you head in the right direction.

A (47:47)

I like it.

B (47:48)

Yeah, good cool, good cool.

A (47:51)

And you got a billboard where you are. What do you want written on that billboard?

B (47:55)

A billboard about what? About me or just anything.

A (47:58)

Anything in the world. Doesn't have to be ICD oh sure,

B (48:02)

I'm gonna put up there. Okay. I'M gonna put life is beautiful and I'm glad to be here with you.

A (48:14)

Nice. Yeah, an important message right now. And lastly, anything else you wish you could have said or shared today?

B (48:29)

I mean, I shared a lot. I think I got most of the things and then I wanted to say. Yeah, no, I think just. Yeah, I guess I'll end it with this gratitude and appreciation and gratefulness for life and everything that I've been through and where I'm at today and for the beautiful people that I have in my life today. I have had to go through a process of building my family and my community and the people who are part of my life now. I love them dearly, hold them deeply and I share openly with. Yeah, okay. And I will add one, one more thing. So I have a son now and I. And this is my way of being, but I advocate it. I share Openly with my 19 year old son about my OCD and my struggle throughout my life because of the genetic component of it. I don't want him to ever feel like he was alone, that he has an experience and he don't know what the is going on. So I told him all about KOCD and any type of ocd and we talk about it and laugh about it and talk about it and he actually, he supports me as well. And it's a beautiful relationship. And I, I do want to say, I encourage anybody who has OCD to open up to your family as much as you feel comfortable or as much as you can because you never know what they may be going through and how you can help them with your affiliate and with their. And yeah, right.

A (49:57)

Yeah, I like that. I like that. Well, thank you so much, Mike, for sharing your story and being so open. I appreciate it.

B (50:03)

Yes, sir. Thank you so much again for everything you do. Really. You are saving lives and changing lives. It's really quite amazing. Thank you. I told you. Look at all these. I didn't came up. Came into contact with from and from your podcast. Seriously, bro, the people you put on are wonderful and I really appreciate it.

A (50:19)

No, that means a lot. I appreciate it. I'm glad, I'm glad you. You took action from it. That's the main thing, right? Otherwise my podcast is just reassurance.

B (50:28)

So.

A (50:29)

Yeah. Well done to you. Thank you for listening to this week's podcast and thank you to our patrons who help make this episode possible. And if you would like to find out more about Patreon and the rewards and benefits, then there will be a link in the episode description. If you enjoy the OCD Stories podcast and would like to support us. Please subscribe and rate the show wherever you listen to the podcast and thank you to NOCD for supporting our work. If you want to find out more about nocd, you can click the link in the episode description and quick disclaimer Guys, this podcast is not therapy. It is not a replacement for therapy. Please seek treatment from a trained professional until we speak. Take care.