The OCD Whisperer Podcast

Host: Kristina Orlova
Episode 131: Buddhism and OCD: How to Stop Obsessive Thoughts Using Mindfulness
Guest: Naomi Matlow (Writer, Educator, and OCD Advocate)
Date: March 18, 2025

Episode Overview

In this insightful episode, Kristina Orlova welcomes Naomi Matlow to explore the intersection of Buddhist psychology, mindfulness, and OCD treatment. Naomi shares her academic and personal journey, practical techniques derived from Buddhist philosophy, and how these ancient teachings can support anyone trying to manage obsessive thoughts—whether they have OCD or not. The episode also offers listeners practical frameworks, relatable analogies, and mindfulness practices to help transform their relationship with intrusive thoughts.

Key Discussion Points and Insights

Naomi’s Journey and the Origins of Her Book

[00:58 – 03:55]

• Naomi completed her Master's in Mindfulness Studies, inspired by a desire to understand meditation’s roots and their application to mental health.
• Diagnosed with OCD at age 15, she describes obsessive thinking as “deep grooves and habit and conditioning, that... requires a lot of maintenance and inquiry.”
• Naomi emphasizes how Buddhist psychology not only parallels, but often clarifies modern therapeutic approaches like CBT, ERP, and ACT, recognizing suffering is caused not by thoughts themselves, but by our reactions to them.

Quote:

“It’s the thoughts themselves that don’t cause suffering, but our reactions to them.”
— Naomi Matlow [02:48]

Buddhist Perspective: Thoughts as Perceptions, Not Facts

[05:22 – 09:27]

• Naomi outlines six “sense doors” in Buddhism (seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting, touching, and thinking), emphasizing that the mind is just another way of perceiving.
• Intrusive thoughts are compared to misperceptions in other senses (e.g., misidentifying a sound); thoughts are not facts or definitions of character.
• The problem arises from attaching significance to thoughts, a “Western predisposition” that fuels OCD suffering.

Quote:

“Our mind is just another gate for life to pass through. We can become a little less attached to what goes on in there, especially when we don’t like it.”
— Naomi Matlow [07:28]

• Kristina highlights the importance of recognizing our minds as one of the senses and the risk of over-identifying with what appears there.

Clinging, Resistance, and the Root of Suffering

[09:27 – 11:50]

• Naomi touches on clinging and wanting to repel discomfort as the root of suffering—core Buddhist teaching.
• Acceptance does not mean agreement with the thought content but being willing to experience discomfort without acting compulsively.

Quote:

“You don’t have to accept the content of the thoughts, but accept that, like, yes, this thought is driving me crazy, but I’m gonna do something that I value...”
— Naomi Matlow [10:11]

Acceptance Practice: Willingness, Not Approval

[11:50 – 13:16]

• Naomi shares Dr. Chad Lejeune’s idea: “An OCD thought is a thought you’re not willing to have” ([11:50]).
• Acceptance starts with awareness and willingness to let uncomfortable thoughts pass through without doing something to escape discomfort.

The Challenge of “Dangerous” or Taboo Thoughts

[13:16 – 16:30]

• Kristina acknowledges that listeners may react with fear to “allowing” or “accepting” thoughts that feel morally abhorrent or threatening.
• Naomi brings in the Buddhist idea of not equating the mind/self with thoughts—“you’re the sky, not the clouds”—to foster detachment.

Quote:

“The mind isn’t the self... you’re the witness, as opposed to the experience... Like, you’re the sky and not the clouds.”
— Naomi Matlow [14:47]

• Naomi adds that the ego-dystonic nature of OCD means intrusive thoughts distress us precisely because they don’t reflect our core self.

The Four Noble Truths and OCD

[16:43 – 20:09]

• Naomi describes how she applies the Four Noble Truths to OCD:
  1. Suffering exists: Unpleasant experiences are inevitable.
  2. Origin of suffering: Suffering is created by clinging and aversion.
  3. Cessation of suffering: Eliminate (or reduce) clinging to reduce self-created suffering.
  4. Noble Eightfold Path: Practical guidelines for alleviating suffering, reframed for OCD (e.g., “wise action” in responding to intrusive thoughts).
• Her book includes frameworks, personal insights, and quotes for deeper contemplation.

Quote:

“For me, when I have an OCD thought, the idea of clinging and grasping and wanting to put a magnifying glass up to it... I immediately start suffering and kind of lose my bearings and forget who I am and what I believe I stand for.”
— Naomi Matlow [19:25]

Mindfulness Practice and Sensory Grounding

[21:17 – 24:41]

• Naomi recommends mindfulness practices focusing on grounding in the senses:
  • Noticing physical sensations (e.g., feet on the ground, smells, tastes) as a way to step out of rumination.
  • The senses can provide calm and clarity the mind often does not.
  • Trustworthy sensory information can be an anchor, even though all perception has limits.

Quote:

“The body is always in the present moment, where the mind is often in the past or the future.”
— Meditation teacher, as quoted by Naomi Matlow [24:31]

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “If you were that murderer or that evil person, then it wouldn’t bother you so much that you were having that thought.” (Naomi Matlow [15:19])
• “Am I in my body right now? Like, oh yeah, I have a body, other things happening here.” (Naomi Matlow [24:42])
• Naomi’s encouragement: “Give our other sensory experiences... the opportunity to shine because... they’re equally as valuable and are providing information.” ([23:07])

Timestamps for Important Segments

• [00:58] Naomi introduces her background, diagnosis, and motivation for Buddhist psychology approach.
• [05:22] Discussion on Buddhist “six sense doors”; reconceptualizing thoughts.
• [09:27] Buddhist teaching on clinging/resistance as the origin of suffering.
• [11:50] Dr. Chad Lejeune’s definition and the willingness concept in acceptance.
• [14:38] Practical strategies for “dangerous” or ego-dystonic thoughts.
• [16:43] The Four Noble Truths mapped to OCD experience and Naomi’s book.
• [21:17] Mindfulness practice: grounding with the senses.
• [24:31] The body and present moment as a mindfulness anchor.

Resource Links and Where to Connect

• Naomi Matlow’s website: naomimatlow.com
  • Book: “A Thought Is Just a Thought: A Buddhist Guide to OCD”
  • PDF and hardcopy available
  • Contact details for support or questions
• Host Kristina Orlova’s toolkit and classes: www.coraresults.com

Takeaway

This episode presents Buddhist mindfulness not as a cure-all, but as a kind, non-judgmental way to change your relationship with obsessive thoughts—a path emphasizing compassion, present awareness, and gentle detachment from the storms of the mind.

For listeners seeking new perspectives on OCD coping strategies, this episode offers both intellectual frameworks and down-to-earth practices from someone who has walked the path themselves.