← The OCD Whisperer Podcast with Kristina Orlova
The OCD Whisperer Podcast with Kristina Orlova
168. Why you can’t stop OCD thoughts and what actually works (Acceptance Explained)
00:19:42
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- [00:00]
WSECU Announcer
WSECU isn't just one of Washington's best credit unions. We're the only credit union to be on the Forbes Best in State list five years running. Why? Because we put you first. Lower fees, early paydays, financial guidance and service second to none. As a member owned cooperative, we love Washington as much as you do. From the Olympic Mountains to the rolling Palouse. Join us and discover how much we care about your financial well being. Because what we really do best is invest in you. Stop by, say hi, we're wsecu.
- [00:29]
Christina Orlova
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- [01:39]
Dr. Sarah Brungart
Yes, I've known you Christina, for many years at this point, so thank you for having me on. I'm Dr. Sarah Brungart, owner of a clinic called Calm OCD. We have locations in Arizona and Utah and then we're virtual around the nation in about a dozen states. And so we primarily treat OCD and a lot of co occurring conditions, a lot of complex complexities within different OCD presentations. This is my 10th year of doing this and so I've learned a lot over the years and so I love the topic of acceptance so I'm super pumped to talk about it.
- [02:15]
Christina Orlova
I love it. Well, we're going to dive right into this. So Hi, I'm Christina Orlova, host of the OCD Whisperer podcast. As someone who lives with ocd, I understand the struggles firsthand. If you're Here, you're not alone. Before we start, grab your free OCD survival kit at www.corresults.com to help you take control. That's K-O R results.com now let's dive into today's episode. One of the first audience questions is how can you let the thoughts just be there? Like, how can you even conceptualize this whole concept of accepting an OCD thought?
- [03:00]
Dr. Sarah Brungart
Yeah, I, I think it goes back to what is the actual goal of OCD therapy? And so this is something I remind our clients of on a regular basis, because when people start with us, their. Their goal oftentimes is to eliminate their thoughts, eliminate the feelings. And of course that makes sense. Why would you not want that? But the goal is actually not to eliminate or reduce thoughts necessarily or to avoid the emotion that's just naturally going to come. If that is your goal, then you're going to be constantly disappointed because what ends up happening is if people are coming in to get rid of their thoughts or get rid of their emotions, they're going to get really irritable and agitated and frustrated when they keep popping up. So I think from a foundational level and an educational level, we have to remind them of what the goal is. The goal is actually to normalize that experience of the thoughts popping up. It's not that necessarily anything is wrong. Doesn't mean that we need to immediately act with a sense of urgency or a sense to immediately problem solve. It's essentially the mechanics of how the OCD brain operates.
- [04:23]
Christina Orlova
And so the second question becomes, how can you not engage in thoughts and feel the horrible feeling? That just seems so counterintuitive. Right. Like, why, why on earth would I want to just sit there and feel that, you know, guilt, anxiety, any of that stuff?
- [04:39]
Dr. Sarah Brungart
Yes, absolutely. I think the first thing that comes to mind with just how the words are framed in that question is, you know, I do validate that the thoughts are horrible. Absolutely. But from a foundational level, one of our other goals is to change our relationship with our thoughts and uncomfortable emotions. And so I don't necessarily love that constant word of the horrible feeling. And so instead, I like kind of the reframe of it's going to sound very silly and it's going to sound and feel like it's impossible. But we need to have this relationship with our thoughts where we welcome all uncomfortable emotions. You know, as a human being, from our earliest memories, we have a wide range of emotions we get to experience. Some are, you know, pleasurable and some are super uncomfortable. And So I want to normalize that. We have to get better at feeling a wide range of emotions. And with ocd, you're going to feel a wide range of emotions for sure.
- [05:48]
Christina Orlova
So are you saying that the. How somebody would do that and not engage with the thoughts and let the feelings be is by essentially, if I'm hearing you right, basically kind of like giving themselves permission to just have that experience. Have. Have the full range of the experience.
- [06:02]
Dr. Sarah Brungart
100%. We're not fighting the quote, unquote horrible feeling. We're embracing whatever emotion we need to feel in that moment, and we need to recognize that if we feel that and not run from it, it will dissipate. If we choose not to do our compulsive behavior in response to that really intense feeling, we're going to end up shrinking ocd.
- [06:27]
Christina Orlova
So I think this is actually a great segue to dive a little bit deeper into. Into this, because I. I think that, you know, when I hear this stuff, of course I come from a different lens because I've done the therapy. I'm in my own recovery. But I'm keeping in mind, you know, all the folks out there who maybe haven't or just kind of are in the thick of things. Right. And the next. The next kind of comment that I. That I get often is things like, well, I can't just let my thoughts come to my mind. They're horrible. I think there's a lot of, you know, like, conceptually it's like, yeah, okay, hear what you're saying. But how. How do I actually do that? Yeah. Getting really stuck on that. Right? Because it just feels so horrific to sit there and be bombarded with these thoughts that are, know, just feel so repugnant and repulsive and horrific to the person experiencing them that, like, how could you tell me to not do anything about that?
- [07:16]
Dr. Sarah Brungart
And I'm so glad you said it exactly like that, because that is what we hear every hour of our day. You know, and I have for the past 10 years, because people are like, how is that possibly going to work? When we go through psychoeducation? You know, they. My clients will look at me like, you've got to be kidding me. Because essentially, when we practice acceptance, what I celebrate with my clients is that's your first exposure. Because essentially what you're doing with acceptance is you're choosing to accept. And hopefully we're going to start learning to reduce compulsions. And so if you practice acceptance and start facing that fear, that is the first win that you can, you know, that you're making against your ocd. One of the things I also validate with every single person is it is going to feel impossible.
- [08:12]
WSECU Announcer
WSECU isn't just one of Washington's best credit unions. We're the only credit union to be on the Forbes Best in State list five years running.
- [08:20]
Dr. Sarah Brungart
Why?
- [08:20]
WSECU Announcer
Because we put you first. Lower fees, early paydays, financial guidance and service second to none. As a member owned cooperative, we love Washington as much as you do. From the Olympic mountains to the rolling Palouse. Join us and discover how much we care about your financial well being. Because what we really do best is, is invest in you. Stop by, say hi, we're wsecu. Let's credit union.
- [08:44]
Dr. Sarah Brungart
A cognitive distortion, which is an unhealthy thinking pattern. Every human being has them and one of them that I see with people that struggle with OCD is a distortion called emotional reasoning. You're, you're coming to conclusions. Your, your reasoning process is based on how you feel. That makes sense, right? How do we navigate this world without paying attention to that? But with ocd, if we pay attention to every single feeling and every single emotion and thought, then we're just going to end up doing tons of compulsive behavior. And so we can't always come to conclusions or, you know, choose an action based on how we're feeling. The third part that I want to address is what I remind people of is what they're doing is not working. They're in my office for a reason. And while the acceptance piece is difficult and I 100% validate that the acceptance piece is going to give them their life back because essentially we're going to teach them how to believe it or not, have more of a nonchalant relationship with their ocd. You know, there's so many books out there that talk about OCD is the bully. And, and if that works for some folks, you know, that's great, use that. But I prefer to kind of have this piece of self compassion where let's have this understanding that your brain is trying to protect you. And so let's remind your brain, like, thanks so much for the message. I'm going to move about my day anyway. I'm going to lean into that emotion. I can have this nonchalant banter back and forth with my ocd. I will say this takes time. This is not going to be something that immediately you're going to feel better. It's consistency, consistency and consistency of these skills. So I kind of went off on a tangent there, but.
- [10:46]
Christina Orlova
Well, No, I mean, I think these are really good points, right? Because, you know, when people are listening to this stuff and, and people are on the Internet, right? And you know, at this point you have AI, GPT, Gemini, et, etc. I mean, you're looking, you're researching, you're reading, you know, And I think what you said that I do want to highlight is it's one thing to kind of understand a concept, but it's another to actually create, you know, maybe a little baby step by step plan and really practice it. And like you said, it's not like, because I did this, you know, a couple of times in the beginning, poof, I immediately feel better. It's, it's more that I, I continue to do it like any kind of muscle and skill building and then I get better with it over time. And then I start, and I start to see results. And so with that, if somebody's listening, they're like, okay, well how long would it take to see results? What, what would you say an average. What do you see if somebody's actually, you know, really putting effort into it to practice this?
- [11:41]
Dr. Sarah Brungart
I think it depends on so many factors, but I mean, if you give yourself a week where you are truly embracing and changing that relationship with your brain and practicing acceptance and resisting compulsions, you're actually going to start feeling that, oh my gosh, I am learning, which is the purpose of exposure. I am learning that these skills actually help me navigate this world in a different way. Because I'm not trapped in my home doing different compulsions anymore. I'm actually leaving the home. I'm actually participating in life. It won't actually take very long if you're very consistent with, with the acceptance and then resisting compulsions. And that means physical, but most importantly those mental compulsions.
- [12:29]
Christina Orlova
Well, and as you're doing it, I imagine that means that in the beginning of it, you probably are going to feel a little bit discombobulated and kind of out of sorts because it's different. And it's going to feel weird and strange and like, what is this? And everything inside of you is going to probably, you know, scream like, oh my gosh, this is. What are you doing? And so this is where it's helpful to have, you know, a therapist or somebody else who can kind of help walk you through or almost like predict that stuff, like, okay, when, you know this is going to happen.
- [13:02]
Dr. Sarah Brungart
Yes, and I will say, you know, I'm, I'm kind of generous with, with saying, you know, a week's time, but that would Be reasonable. If somebody maybe was in an IOP level and they were seeing a therapist every single day and they were committed to that acceptance piece, they would start to feel the difference. They're still going to be doing lots of compulsions, like that's reasonable to expect, but they're going to start to learn that acceptance is actually the most profound gift that they can give themselves and, you know, moving towards the things that they. That they want to do in life. I love it.
- [13:39]
Christina Orlova
Well, then this. Let's go into the. The fourth. We have two more questions. So how can I feel positive emotions instead of these OCD attacks? I think that's also a really common question people have.
- [13:49]
Dr. Sarah Brungart
Yes, it goes back to what is the actual goal? You have to shift the framework of what the goal is. The goal in life is to not only feel positive emotions. The goal in life is to get better at feeling a wide variety of emotions. So with ocd, you have to set yourself up to have this understanding, like, oh, yeah, that's uncomfortable, but that doesn't mean that I need to change my behavior. It's uncomfortable and I can do the hard thing anyway. Both of those things are possible at the same time. Just because your brain is alerting you and sending signals of these uncomfortable emotions doesn't mean that we need to act in a sense of urgency.
- [14:31]
Christina Orlova
And so would you say that then the kind of positive feelings or other feelings, period, you'll get access to more of them when you start to change this relationship to this? Because.
- [14:44]
Dr. Sarah Brungart
Yes. And, you know, it's very typical with somebody with, you know, severe OCD to also have severe depression. And so what ends up happening is their mood is greatly affected because their OCD is telling them what to do all day long. And through treatment, through acceptance, they're realizing that they have a choice, and so that mood improves along with it. So they're going to feel more of positive emotions because they're no longer feeling like a victim of their ocd. They're no longer feeling like they have to do everything their brain is telling them to do.
- [15:20]
Christina Orlova
Love that. And so the last question is, how can you not try to figure out the OCD thoughts? And I know we're circling around this, but that's very specific. I think too, like you said earlier, kind of the mental rituals that people can engage in. Yeah, sure.
- [15:34]
Dr. Sarah Brungart
One of the things that I talk about all the time is when we use acceptance, we need to look at the function behind why we use that. So when people start this skill, they're using acceptance as A method to get rid of the thought. That's not why we use acceptance, because what they're doing is they're doing it for anxiety relief, which makes sense, but how can I use acceptance and also feel uncomfortable? And so they start to get disappointed because the thoughts are going to continue to come. So they'll come into my office and they'll say, say, I did what you said. I accepted. And they kept coming. So then I'll say, great, you know what to do. So I started calling, calling it the layering effect. So any sort of fear that you're accepting, so any sort of obsession, you accept it, your brain is going to give you 10 more, and it's going to fill you with obsessions that are even more intense. So this is the layering effect. Every single obsession, every single image, every, single, you know, distressing thought, we're using that same skill. And so we're understanding that of course, we all have, you know, unique presentations of ocd, you know, with our. With our clients, but it also functions in a very similar manner. And so the goal isn't to figure out these. These different obsessions. The goal is to lean into them and accept them at all levels. What's really helpful from a therapist standpoint is really to do a lot of behavior chains and a behavioral analysis through this. Because at what point in the layering did OCD hook you into doing compulsions? What thought do we need to get better at experiencing? What emotion do we need to get better at experiencing? Whether it be guilt or shame or that sort of thing. So to preface that, you have to get better at understanding the layering effect and accepting all those things that are going to come and recognizing that no matter the different adjectives and nouns and different words and phrases that your OCD shifts around, it is all the same. It's all the same. None of it needs to be figured out.
- [17:59]
Christina Orlova
Thank you for sharing all of that. I think to the piece that I hear that I want folks to. To really kind of take away is that there is a whole component of kind of having to shift your mindset a bit. And, and I think part of, from all the different answers that you gave and your insight and experience is that, you know, when we're fighting this stuff, constantly arguing with it, constantly, almost like berating ourselves, like, how can I do this? This is horrible. This is.
- [18:26]
Dr. Sarah Brungart
This.
- [18:26]
Christina Orlova
This is that. I mean, that's so much judgment and evaluation that it just keeps you so honed in and focused, hyper focused on the very thing you don't want and so, like you said, realizing, well, that strategy also isn't working. So why don't we do something that it might feel counterproductive or intuitive and maybe kind of not the first thing you would do, but if we do it, let's notice what happens then.
- [18:48]
Dr. Sarah Brungart
Yep. And one of the things I want to highlight, which I'm glad you brought this up, is it actually starts to become an. Majority of the time it's an obsession of, well, if I accept my thoughts, what does that mean? You know, so it could be, you know, if I accept my thoughts, then that means I'm really going to do this horrible thing, or I really am a monster, or, you know, it could lead into checking how you feel about intrusive thoughts. And so, you know, one of the first things we tackle is just, you know, what is the barrier if we're struggling to move toward acceptance? Is OCD kind of getting in the way of that? And so do we need to slow the whole process down and, and do a step by step kind of analysis to see what is the fear? What is the fear and what are we actually up against here? So when I've worked with folks that, you know, they're struggling with that acceptance piece, that's the missing component. We need to go back to the beginning and see that as an obsession. Oftentimes, why are we not able to accept, other than the fact that it's a horrendous feeling? What is your OCD brain telling you about the acceptance skill?
- [19:57]
Christina Orlova
I love that. Yeah, that's a really beautiful. Yeah. Way to really kind of dig a little more into it and understand that there's a. There's a, something happening on the back end as well.
- [20:06]
Dr. Sarah Brungart
Yes.
- [20:06]
Christina Orlova
And we can address that and kind of work through that. Awesome. I want to just say thank you so much for coming on, for sharing and for giving us all the different answers. And I really hope that folks got some different tools, techniques and insight around this. And anybody interested in finding you, how can they find you?
- [20:22]
Dr. Sarah Brungart
Yeah. So our website, calmocd.com and then we're also on Instagram, so both of those places would be great.
- [20:29]
Christina Orlova
Awesome. Thank you so much for coming on the show.
- [20:31]
Dr. Sarah Brungart
Thank you. Bye. Bye.
- [20:35]
Christina Orlova
Thanks for listening to the OCD Whisperer podcast. Remember, freedom from OCD is a journey and you're not alone. Visit www.quoraresults.com to explore self help masterclasses like Sneaky Rituals with Jenna Overbaugh or ICBT Masterclass with Christina Inabe. Don't forget to grab your ocd CBT journal Tracker and planner while you're there. If you found this episode helpful, please subscribe, share and leave a five star review to help others find the podcast. Together we can make a difference. Keep going and I'll see you in the next episode.