A Look Ahead at Dune: Prophecy with Showrunner Alison Schapker

Summary

The Official Dune: Prophecy Podcast – Episode Summary: "A Look Ahead at Dune: Prophecy with Showrunner Alison Schapker"

Release Date: November 13, 2024

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Introduction to Dune: Prophecy

In this premiere episode of The Official Dune: Prophecy Podcast, produced by HBO in collaboration with Max Podcasts and Pineapple Street Studios, hosts Ahmed Ali Akbar and Greta Johnson delve into the upcoming HBO Original series, Dune: Prophecy. This episode serves as a comprehensive primer, setting the stage for listeners ahead of the series premiere on November 17th. The discussion revolves around the rich Dune universe, the foundational elements of the new series, and an exclusive interview with the show's showrunner, writer, and executive producer, Alison Schapker.

Hosts’ Personal Connections to Dune

Ahmed Ali Akbar and Greta Johnson share their personal journeys with the Dune franchise, highlighting their initial exposures and enduring appreciation for the saga. Ahmed recounts his mother's influence, a "prototypical super fan," who introduced him to the series by urging him to read Dune, albeit in a somewhat unconventional manner by spoiling key plot points through a "Wikipedia read" ([04:01]). Greta reminisces about her hazy early memories of Dune, sparked by a high school party viewing of David Lynch's adaptation and reignited by Denis Villeneuve's recent films ([02:36]).

Understanding the Dune Universe and Dune: Prophecy

The hosts provide a succinct overview of the Dune universe, emphasizing that Dune: Prophecy is set 10,000 years before Frank Herbert's original Dune novel ([01:36]). This temporal leap allows the series to explore the origins of the Bene Gesserit, initially known as the Sisterhood, and the early dynamics between the great houses, particularly the Harkonnens and the Atreides. Ahmed draws parallels between Dune and other epic sagas like A Song of Ice and Fire, noting the grand ambition and complex world-building that make Dune both revered and challenging to adapt ([05:08]).

The Bene Gesserit and the Sisterhood

A significant portion of the discussion centers on the Bene Gesserit, a mysterious and influential female organization within the Dune universe. The hosts explore the group's multifaceted role in politics, religion, and social engineering, highlighting their unique abilities such as the "voice"—a technique that compels obedience without the subject's awareness ([07:50], [07:18], [08:09]). They discuss the origins of the Sisterhood, its evolution into the Bene Gesserit, and its complex internal dynamics, balancing noble intentions with morally ambiguous actions.

Trailer Breakdown and Initial Impressions

Ahmed and Greta dissect the Dune: Prophecy trailer, noting its thematic elements of secrecy, power struggles, and the establishment of the Sisterhood. They highlight intriguing visuals and narrative hooks, such as the inclusion of diverse planets like Salusa Secundus and the depiction of a "school for girls" led by the Harkonnen sisters ([23:12], [23:27]). Greta expresses enthusiasm for the show's unique take on familiar factions, emphasizing the reimagining of the Harkonnens as protagonists ([14:01]).

Exclusive Interview with Showrunner Alison Schapker

Inspiration and Source Material

Alison Schapker reveals that Dune: Prophecy draws heavily from Sisterhood of Dune, a novel co-authored by Brian Herbert and Kevin J. Anderson, which explores the early days of the Bene Gesserit. Schapker emphasizes the focus on Valya Harkonnen and her sister Tula, offering a nuanced portrayal of the Harkonnen lineage long before their antagonistic roles in the original series ([25:56], [27:44]).

Navigating the Vast Dune Universe

Schapker discusses the challenges of honoring the extensive Dune lore while crafting an accessible narrative for new audiences. She prioritizes character-driven storytelling to ensure that both die-hard fans and newcomers can engage with the series without feeling alienated by intricate world-building ([28:07]).

Political Power Structure and the Great Machine Wars

Exploring the socio-political landscape of Dune: Prophecy, Schapker outlines a neo-feudal Imperium where great houses vie for control over Arrakis, the sole source of the invaluable spice. She elaborates on the aftermath of the Great Machine Wars—a pivotal event where humanity triumphed over oppressive artificial intelligence, leading to the current era of rebuilding and power realignment ([33:50], [35:51]).

Themes of Power and Technology

Schapker reflects on contemporary parallels, particularly the precarious balance between technological advancement and human autonomy. She underscores the series' exploration of themes such as truth-saying and the ethical implications of wielding power, suggesting that these elements are highly relevant in today's AI-driven world ([41:43], [42:03]).

The Voice and Bene Gesserit Abilities

The "voice" is a recurring topic, with Schapker explaining its complexity and significance within the Bene Gesserit toolkit. She describes it as a multifaceted ability that encompasses elements of persuasion, manipulation, and control, rooted in historical and religious inspirations like the Jesuits and the Vatican's power structures ([30:45], [39:53], [40:29]).

Character Dynamics and Institutional Power

The discussion delves into the internal and external power struggles within the Sisterhood. Schapker highlights the existence of conflicting aims and diverse perspectives among the Bene Gesserit members, drawing parallels to real-world religious and political organizations. This internal complexity ensures that the Sisterhood remains an unpredictable and multifaceted force within the Dune universe ([16:51], [19:43]).

Final Thoughts and Anticipation for the Series Premiere

As the episode concludes, Ahmed and Greta express their excitement for the series premiere, anticipating a rich blend of political intrigue, character development, and the deepening of Dune's intricate lore. They encourage listeners to subscribe and stay tuned for detailed episode-by-episode analyses post-premiere, promising further insights and discussions with special guests from the show.

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Notable Quotes

• Allison Schapker ([25:33]): "If you're a Dune fan and you are bringing a lot of knowledge... we're not dumbing anything down. But at the same time, if you're somebody who has not seen even the films or read the books, that this is also a story grounded in character."

• Ahmed Ali Akbar ([39:37]): "The voice is kind of on a continuum, I guess, with being able to compel somebody to change their behavior."

• Greta Johnson ([18:12]): "What is your feeling. Like, what is the Bene Gesserit's role in this?"

• Alison Schapker ([35:51]): "They don't have a lock on it. And other schools are also rising because people no longer can use advanced thinking machine technology or artificial intelligence."

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Conclusion

This inaugural episode of The Official Dune: Prophecy Podcast successfully sets the stage for the forthcoming series by providing listeners with a deep dive into the Dune universe's complexities and the specific focus of Dune: Prophecy. Through engaging discussions and an insightful interview with Alison Schapker, Ahmed and Greta equip both longtime fans and newcomers with the knowledge and excitement needed to fully appreciate the new installment in the legendary saga.

Transcript

[Allison Schapker]

The Sisterhood draws women from many worlds to advance our species and govern the future. Now is the time to secure the.

[Amidal Yakbur]

Throne and protect the Imperium.

[Greta Johnson]

Welcome to the official Dune Prophecy Podcast. I am Greta Johnson.

[Amidal Yakbur]

And I'm Amidal Yakbur. On this podcast, we're going to unpack the new HBO original series Dune Prophecy episode by episode.

[Greta Johnson]

Set 10,000 years before the events of the original book by Frank Herbert, this series follows the mysterious sisterhood that will eventually become known as the Bene Gesserit.

[Amidal Yakbur]

And every week, we'll break down the latest episode, sorting Truth from Lies with the show's writers, cast and crew. But today, we have a very special primer episode for you, a crash course to prepare you for Dune Prophecy.

[Greta Johnson]

That's right. Whether this is your first time in the Duneiverse or you just need a little refresher, we have you covered. We are going to take stock of what to expect when the series premieres on November 17th by Breaking down the trailer and talking with showrunner, writer and executive producer Allison Schapker.

[Amidal Yakbur]

Here's your spoiler warning. Since we're talking about the Dune universe in general, we will spoil the story in Frank Herbert's book and the recent Dune films. So if you haven't seen those yet, go check them out. They're both streaming on max. There's a war hidden in plain sight. I'm the only one that can tell you the truth. So Dune Prophecy is set in the same universe that Frank Herbert first established in the first Dune book that came out in 1965.

[Greta Johnson]

Yes, and of course, that is the same book series that inspired the two recent Dune films, directed by Denis Villeneuve and produced by Legendary Pictures, which star Timothee Chalamet and zendaya. But this TV show takes place 10,000 years before that timeline that we're talking about in those movies.

[Amidal Yakbur]

And of course, you know, Dune has captured the imagination of so many people.

[Greta Johnson]

Across the world, and we are two of those people. And we are your hosts for this new podcast about Dune Prophecy because we are both super stoked about Dune.

[Amidal Yakbur]

So just to give you a little bit of background on me, I am a food reporter at the Chicago Tribune, but I also have a long history as a podcast host and culture journalist writing about American Muslims and religion.

[Greta Johnson]

I am also a journalist. I am a podcast host and interviewer. You might know me as the co host of the official Game of Thrones podcast. So I also really enjoy talking about fandoms, especially adaptation, as a big book nerd. And I Think my first Dune memory is very hazy. It involves a high school party when the David Lynch Dune was just like, sort of on. So I like, vaguely remember Sandworms, but that was kind of about it until the newer Dune films came out from.

[Amidal Yakbur]

My teen years, I think my mom was, like, kind of a prototypical super fan in her own way. Like, in her own Pakistani immigrant way. I love Dune. So she. Yeah, like, she loved Star wars and sci fi in general.

[Greta Johnson]

What a great nerd.

[Amidal Yakbur]

Yeah, Big, big. So she made me read Dune, actually. I was kind of forced to, in a way. She said, it's really important and it really speaks to me and, you know, please give it a chance. And I actually struggled a bit. Like, the first hundred pages were kind of tough. I get about halfway through and I'm starting to really enjoy it. And then, like, the last three quarters, I'm like, mom, I have a headache. I don't know if I can do this anymore. They're just talking about battles like, please make sweet. Please don't make me. And she's like, okay, so do you wanna know what happens? And I was like, you mean you're gonna spoil it? And the other books. And I go, sure. And she literally does a Wikipedia read. She literally just goes through every single thing. Here's what happens with the worms. Here's what happens with Paul. Here's what happens with.

[Greta Johnson]

I love that.

[Amidal Yakbur]

Yeah. So I got spoiled for the whole series before I ever read them, which is, like, really a funny way to get into a series. And I eventually did go back and read them.

[Greta Johnson]

That is really funny.

[Amidal Yakbur]

But, like, what really brought me in is how much it mattered to her.

[Greta Johnson]

Oh, my gosh. I love that.

[Amidal Yakbur]

You know, prior to these Dune films coming out, I think one of the things that was kind of odd about Dune, like, if you compared it to Lord of the Rings, was there wasn't really the massive pop culture imprint, as opposed to the size of the readership. It really was. Because the challenge of filming it really, it's just like such a complicated story to film. And getting the philosophy and history and all that stuff, the world building of it is very difficult. So we're finally in a moment now where Dune is getting its due. And it kind of reminds me also of A Song of Ice and Fire, a Game of Thrones, in that. When I look at A Song of Ice and Fire, I see a lot of Dune in it also. And I see that same ambition, which is like a fantasy thing that's, like, so big that it's like Unfilmable. And it's about like a family falling. Like the Starks and the Tradies, you know, they're very similar.

[Greta Johnson]

They are very similar. That's true.

[Amidal Yakbur]

So I see Dune's fingerprints all over pop culture, but it hasn't had its own time to really, you know, have its own space. And now we're in a little bit of a dunesance. You know, Rena Dune. We are getting to that place where there's gonna be more material. And that's very exciting.

[Greta Johnson]

I think it is really exciting. It's interesting to think about, like, what specifically it is about Dune, because I think there are a lot of different elements. I think there's a lot of nuance there. And I think, you know, what I find myself looking for in really great genre fiction like fantasy and sci fi, is when you find something that doesn't take place on Earth, but that ends up feeling like it is so utterly about humanity. And I think that is something that you really see very powerfully with a franchise like Dune.

[Amidal Yakbur]

And it expands the limits of your mind without needing to do spice.

[Greta Johnson]

Unless you're into that, which is fine, too. I guess it's okay if we endorse spice.

[Amidal Yakbur]

Spice optional. Okay, you can use spice optional reads.

[Greta Johnson]

There you go. I like that. Yeah. So to be clear, Dune Prophecy is a new story from the Duniverse. But even though it isn't a direct adaptation of any of the books, it does draw inspiration from the book system Sisterhood of Dune, which was actually written by Frank Herbert's son, Brian Herbert, along with Kevin J. Anderson. And since the show exists in the wider Dune world, we thought it would be useful to spend a little bit of time on sort of the SparkNotes edition of the original story. Emmett, I want to put you on the spot and ask you to do it. What do you think?

[Amidal Yakbur]

Sure. You'll have to help me a little bit.

[Greta Johnson]

You get to spoil it for us, essentially.

[Amidal Yakbur]

Oh, yeah. Just like my mom. I'm going to do that.

[Greta Johnson]

Yeah, exactly. But, yes, I'm happy to help.

[Amidal Yakbur]

So in the first Dune book, it's the story of Paul Atreides. He's from this noble great house, the Atreides. His mother, really interesting person, Jessica. She's part of the Bene Gesserit. It's this shadowy, exclusively female organization. They rely on political manipulation. They do some religious engineering, social engineering, and they have some very, very cool abilities.

[Greta Johnson]

They have a couple different, very interesting methods of communication. They have, like, these hand signals. They also have the voice, essentially. They can force People to do their will, which is obviously extremely powerful. They also, based on the way Jessica has trained Paul, there's a lot of just like, very astute behavioral analysis that they're also really good at. So they're just very good at reading and manipulating people, which of course ends up being very interesting.

[Amidal Yakbur]

Yes. They can read lies, which makes them both very useful to politicians and also terrifying. So it kind of makes politics a little different in this world. And one fun thing about the voice is that which I really like, the way it's described is it's almost like a suggestion, like when they command you to do something, you don't even realize you're doing it until you do it.

[Greta Johnson]

That is really cool.

[Amidal Yakbur]

So the story kicks off when Paul's family gets reassigned to a new planet by the Emperor of the Imperium, which is like kind of a fraught political system that they're a part of.

[Greta Johnson]

They usually are.

[Amidal Yakbur]

Yeah. Yeah. So the planet that the Atreides get reassigned to is called Arrakis, A very inhospitable desert planet with these monster like creatures called sandworms. House Atreides is there to take it over from the Harkonnens, which is another great house, historically, not very nice guys. They have a lot of ambitions of power, and they rule over the people of Arrakis. The Fremen with an iron fist. Atreides, on the other hand, they're like, pretty. They're kind of like prototypical noble house kind of thing. You know, you could really.

[Greta Johnson]

They're nice colonizers.

[Amidal Yakbur]

Yeah, they're the nice guys. Yeah. I mean, they care about honor, let's put it that way.

[Greta Johnson]

Yes, they're very. You mentioned the Starks earlier. That's a very, very high connection. If you know that family, you're there.

[Amidal Yakbur]

They're good to their people. They're not going to kill their people for no reason. Whereas the Harkonnens might. Let's talk a little bit more about Arrakis because it's a really politically important planet. And that's because it's the only source of spice in the entire universe, which is a really important word.

[Greta Johnson]

This is where it gets weird, guys. Yeah.

[Amidal Yakbur]

The beginning of everything weird is spice in the world. And in my life, spice is used for intergalactic space travel. And Arrakis is the only place you can get it. It does a lot of funny things. Like it has a lot of different things. You can eat it, you can breathe it, it turns your eyes blue, gives you a little bit of like, let's say, collective consciousness.

[Greta Johnson]

I think it's probably. Yeah, I think it's probably sort of like a psilocybin mushroom situation where, like, you maybe have. Will have visions or. Yes, the collective consciousness thing, I think, is a good way of putting it, too. It's like a way to tap into higher wisdom, perhaps.

[Amidal Yakbur]

Yeah. But it's like, it lets you ascend in many ways. You know, it lets you do something beyond the capabilities of a regular human. And people who are addicted to spice can get really messed up. Like, they can become more than human. Everyone in this world, by the way, is human. Besides the worms. There's no real, like, alien, other aliens. We're all talking about humans here. Yeah, the Fremen. Let's talk about the Fremen, Greta.

[Greta Johnson]

Yes. The Fremen live in this desert. It's supposedly uninhabitable, but they are definitely there. There are also these giant sandworms that the Fremen call the Shaihulud. And the Fremen have lived on Arrakis long before either House Harkonnen or House Sword Atreides. And they have their own relationship with the land.

[Amidal Yakbur]

Fast forwarding a little bit. When the Atreides get to Arrakis, they try to settle in, but they are betrayed by the Harkonnens with the help of the Emperor. It was all a ruse to get rid of Atreides. Paul's father, Leto, is killed. And Paul and his mother, Jessica, they flee to the desert and they join up with the Fremen. And a lot of the things that differentiates the Atreides from the Harkonnens is that tradies see Fremen as a potential resource. You know, like, not just kind of the savages that Harkonnen saw them as. And so Paul has that in his head. And so he kind of joins the Fremen. He really becomes a part of their community, not just to avenge his father, but also because of a genuine connection to the Fremen. And the spice is really messing up Paul. Okay. It really messes up Paul. Paul does not have a good time. Like, it is all downhill for Paul from here. Like, mentally, he's not doing okay. So he. I should have mention he's the first boy, Right. Or man, to have any Bene Gesserit training.

[Greta Johnson]

Yes. Jessica kind of broke the rules when she taught him what she taught him.

[Amidal Yakbur]

She's breaking a lot of rules. And the shadowy sisterhood is, like. It's kind of interesting that BAAL can do this weird stuff. He seems to have prophecies and, you know, let's let it happen. So when he goes into the desert, he gets exposed to more spice. He gets exposed to more Fremen culture. He really becomes that collective consciousness. He can see the past and the future, and the Fremen see him as Lisan Al Gaib. So they had this prophecy that the Lasan Al Gaib would come and free them. And he's, like, kind of not into this at first because he didn't want to. You know, he really respects the Fremen, honestly. Like, he likes their culture. He doesn't want to take leadership, but he just keeps getting pushed into the situation where he. It makes sense for him to be the religious and political leader. And they attack the capital of Arrakis, Arrakeen, and they take control of the planet. And that's essentially when Paul becomes the emperor with the Fremen by his side. And that kicks off the story that unfolds over the next several books. It, like, becomes much more messy than you expect. And, like, a lot of people read this, like, they're like, yeah, Paul, you know, he liberated the Fremen. But author Frank Herbert said, the difference between a hero and an antihero is where you stop the story.

[Greta Johnson]

I love that.

[Amidal Yakbur]

So for a lot of people, they read that first book and they're like, paul did the thing. That's great. And then there's all this other stuff that is going to complicate your notion of was it appropriate for Paul to do what he did?

[Greta Johnson]

I love that. I think it's really interesting, and I think it speaks to how often. I mean, we love putting hero on a pedestal and calling it a day. Right. This is more complicated than that. And Dune Prophecy is also going to occupy that gray area.

[Amidal Yakbur]

Yes.

[Greta Johnson]

Okay, so this brings us to Dune Prophecy. Ahmed and I have already seen the first episode, and I can tell you we are pumped for this.

[Amidal Yakbur]

Here's the official blurb for the show. 10,000 years before the ascension of Paul Atreides, Dune Prophecy follows two Harkonnen sisters as they combat forces that threaten the future of humankind and establish the fabled sect that will become known as the Bene Gesserit.

[Greta Johnson]

Yes, of course. Two of the names that we're super familiar with from the original Dune story are Harkonnen and Atreides. I think one thing that's really exciting about this TV show is that we are going to see characters from both of those houses in addition to a number of other great houses. But, of course, since this is 10,000 years before. Obviously, the dynamics are going to be maybe a little different than what we're expecting.

[Amidal Yakbur]

Right. Dune is so great at inverting who are the good and the bad guys. I mean, the Harkonnens, certainly the antagonists of Paul's story. We're seeing them here as the protagonist. And Atreides, we don't really know what they're going to be doing here. I'm really curious how they're going to relate to the Harkonnens 10,000 years in the past and whether they're really more alike or more different. I think that's one of the interesting questions that comes up about these two families.

[Greta Johnson]

Yeah, well, I do think, like, we've used the number 10,000 years a lot. I would like to invite listeners just to consider, like, how many, like, 10,000 years ago in Earth history was a really, really, really, really, really long time ago. So I think it's really interesting that we get to revisit some of these families, but in, like, a completely different context.

[Amidal Yakbur]

And another big part of the show we have to mention is that it takes place right after the great Machine Wars. Humans and artificial intelligence called thinking machines. Humans won that war. So when we start the show, all thinking machines have been banned.

[Greta Johnson]

That's a really interesting layer to Dune lore that I, as just like a first book reader and two movie watcher, was not familiar with. So I'm really excited to see the elements of that in this show. So I really love the Bene Gesserit. I think they're probably my favorite part of the original Dune story. And I'm excited to talk more about them with you because they're always in the room where it happens. They're working behind the scenes. They are dictated how things go in the Imperium, but you can also never quite fully figure them out. Like, they're really mysterious.

[Amidal Yakbur]

Yeah, you can't put them in a box. That's what's amazing. Like, you don't know. They're so unpredictable. You know, there's individuals within it, the group's general aims, like, that's really how the world kind of works, you know, and it's. I think they've done an amazing job in this world of making you feel kind of inspired by certain elements of them, kind of terrified of them, you know, like, you really don't know how to feel. You know, there's a lot of good. There's good and bad in everybody.

[Greta Johnson]

Yes. It's just sketchy in the best possible way.

[Amidal Yakbur]

Yes, yes, I would agree with that, I think one of the things that the Frank Herbert books take from real life is the Bene Gesserit as, like, influenced by real historical orders that, you know, were monastic or mystic or whatever that could be. You know, for me, the most obvious one was the Sufis from Islam. But you could see them as nuns, you could see them as Shaolin monks, you could see them as Kabbalah followers. Like, there's so many different ways in which they have real kind of parallels with history.

[Greta Johnson]

Yes. And kind of a fun fact is that Brian Herbert has said that the inspiration behind the Bene Gesserit were his dad's Irish Catholic aunts who tried to force Catholicism on him. And I think that does make a lot of sense because, you know, the word Jesuit does sound an awful lot.

[Amidal Yakbur]

Like Jesuit, which blows my mind. I actually thought about the other word in that, Bene. It's actually used in a lot of the biblical languages. You know, Hebrew, Arabic, you know, the Abrahamic ones. It means, like, son of or tribe of Bene in Hebrew, in Banu in Arabic. And so, like, you know, I assumed it was used as, like, a tribe. You know, like the Bene Gesserit are like a adopted tribe. So, like, I never thought about the Jesuit side of things. I always paid attention to the Bene part. And other things, by the way, in Dune are Bene, whatever society. So, yeah, it's a combination of two different religious traditions, which is like, the way Frank Herbert was such an interesting guy. He was smashing things together all the time.

[Greta Johnson]

That's awesome.

[Amidal Yakbur]

I love that there's so many ways, like, a Bene Gesserit can influence a story. And it goes to show you all the different forms of power that can happen in a political system. And especially, I think the gendered element of it is very interesting to me, just the fact that they are not openly taking power, but they are. They. The real force behind the imperium is, I think, an open question that probably people have debated for decades. What do you think? What is your feeling? Like, what is the Bene Gesserit's role in this?

[Greta Johnson]

I think that was what I was most curious about. I was kind of excited that they didn't spell it out because it left a lot of room for interpretation. To your point, while not being visibly in charge, they are pulling the strings. They are in charge. Which, I mean, in a lot of ways, arguably is the not. Maybe not better, but, like, could be a preferred form of power. Right. It's like, it's one thing to sit in the chair. It's another thing if you're, like, hiding behind the veil and you get to actually be the one in charge. You know what I mean?

[Amidal Yakbur]

Right. And we should be clear, like, this is not a system where the Atreides and the Harkonnens are, like, completely subservient and obedient to the Imperium. Like, it is people with armies, so they have some power, you know, they can resist. So the Bene Gesserit, like, kind of unites these different factions in a way. Like, it's the thing that most many houses have, like, a Bene Gesserit in their house in some way. I think that's super interesting. I also think the other thing about the Bene Gesserit is the fact that they have conflicting aims within themselves. Like, it's not like when people do, like, Illuminati stories, which you could kind of analogize this to, sometimes it's like the Illuminati is all working towards this one thing. And, like, yes, maybe they do want to bring this, you know, perfect Messiah out, but everyone is gonna have. Over 10,000 years. You're gonna have a lot of different people arguing about how this is gonna happen. I mean, that's what happens with real life religion, you know, for sure. So let me ask you a question is do you think the Bene Gesserit are cynical trying to achieve an outcome, or true believer fanatics?

[Greta Johnson]

That's a good question. I would say probably, like any religious group, we shouldn't put them all in one box.

[Amidal Yakbur]

True. Yeah. Yeah. Yep, yep. And definitely, definitely.

[Greta Johnson]

My guess is that there's probably a little of each, which is gonna make for some very interesting drama.

[Amidal Yakbur]

Yeah.

[Greta Johnson]

Another thing that the Bene Gesserit do is help set up marriages. And that's obviously not foreign to anyone who's familiar with any form of history. Right. Where, yes, of course, you want the most advantageous pairing between families is something that has happened for millennia in this world as well. But they are the ones who are matchmaking, essentially, which is also very interesting and I think is going to play a pretty significant role in this TV show.

[Amidal Yakbur]

Greta, what do you think about the fact that the Bene Gesserit are often referred to as witches, both in, like, a. In universe sense, but also in, like, a historical sense of what witches mean in our world?

[Greta Johnson]

That is a very good question. When I was watching one of the Dune movies with my boyfriend recently, I was like, ooh, these are the witches? And he was like, can we say that? And I was like, yeah, Man. So I do think there is some. I do think there has been, like, a resurgence or a retaking of it, which I think is pretty exciting. I mean, I have a lot of friends who, like, will, like, actively consider themselves to be witchy or would identify as a witch. I am not one of those people, but I love it. I'm like, let's fucking go.

[Amidal Yakbur]

Well, I just think it's interesting. Like, in the 60s, I'm sure some of those, like, reclaiming witchiness movements were existing. And it's kind of almost surprising because you see the way in which he obviously very much values, like, women's power that has been historically demonized.

[Greta Johnson]

Right. I mean, they burned them, you know, like, it was not that long ago in American history.

[Amidal Yakbur]

No, no.

[Greta Johnson]

Yeah.

[Amidal Yakbur]

So the Bene Gesserit feel like a little bit of, like an alter. Like, you know, like an alternative kind of rendering of this witch history. And people use witch as a slur against them, basically. Like, you know, that Bene Gesserit witch. Like, they'll say that in there, which.

[Greta Johnson]

People do say in real life, too. Yeah, I think. I think it's really exciting. I mean, I did an interview with this author, Madeline Miller, several years ago, and she wrote a book called Circe, which is sort of an inversion of the Odyssey, where it's about Circe, the witch on the island who turns Odysseus men into pigs. And right at the end of this interview, I asked her if she considers herself to be an all witchy. And she essentially says, like, I think any woman in a society who's wielding more power than society wants her to have is a witch. And I love that definition so much. I think. I think it totally relates here, too.

[Amidal Yakbur]

Absolutely. All right. I'm really excited about this part. We're going to break down the trailer. There are a lot of teases in there. The Imperium is a circus of fear and rumor. I'm surrounded by vipers. If I lose control of Arrakis, the great houses would feed me to the worm. Your Majesty, my troubles are far greater than just Arrakis. So, without giving any spoilers, watching this trailer, after having already seen the first episode, what sticks out to you the most?

[Greta Johnson]

I think my general takeaway is I love how much they used words like secrets and rumors and vipers. And we get some sex, we get some fighting. Also, right at the end when she's like, I run a school for girls.

[Amidal Yakbur]

It's just like, yes, you know, like, very ex. Many, I run the school for girls. Like, you Know, like, I don't know that I was expecting that when I first heard of the show. And it's kind of a. It's a fun twist. It's a fun, different way in to this story. And also, like, just seeing the planets that were there. We see Salusa Secundus, which is the imperial planet. We see another planet that is going to be the planet of the sisterhood. And then we see Arrakis. So we're gonna see a couple of different settings. And we saw some clubs. Some clubs are going to the club. Looks like that's not something that I would have associated with Dune, but, like, that's pretty fun too. It's cool. It's pretty cool.

[Greta Johnson]

Yeah. I mean, even the idea of the school for girls where it's like, oh, yeah, no, I would watch a show about teenage witch assassins. Turns out. Yeah. And they all live in the same place. Great. Let's go, you know.

[Amidal Yakbur]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Greta Johnson]

We are so excited now to talk about Dune prophecy and the sisterhood with today's very special guest, showrunner, writer and executive producer Alison Schapker. Allison, we are so excited to have you on the podcast.

[Allison Schapker]

Oh, thank you. I'm so excited to be here.

[Greta Johnson]

Amit and I have both seen episode one. We are very excited for you to join us in the next episode to break that down with us. But before everyone has seen the first episode, we would love to just kind of go, like, big picture on the show and the Dune universe and your relationship to it in general.

[Allison Schapker]

Well, I am a Dune fan and I have been since I read Frank Herbert's book as a teenager, and I have an incredibly visceral sort of sense memory of that experience. I think it was just very mind blowing. And from that point on, I sort of have devoured Dune content through the years. And, like, everyone was blown away by Denis Villeneuve's films. And it feels like a very exciting time to be a Dune fan and to have the privilege of, you know, working in the Dune universe. So I'm very excited to be creating as a Dune fan right now. It's hard to believe.

[Amidal Yakbur]

Yeah. We talked about how Dune really sticks with you. It also something that I read as a teen and I just have revisited and found so valuable over the years and. But we wanted to talk about how this kind of project came to be. Some of the characters in the show do come from a book written by Brian Herbert, Frank Herbert's son, and Kevin J. Anderson, Sisterhood of Dune. Can you tell us a little bit about how much of the show is inspired by that book and its story.

[Allison Schapker]

Well, very much. We're inspired by the sisterhood of Dune and the Schools trilogy that Brian Herbert and Kevin J. Anderson wrote. And I think it's so exciting that they chose to look at the origin of the Bene Gesserit when it was still an institution on the rise, when it was called the Sisterhood. And also Valya Harkonnen as the second Mother Superior of that institution and her sister Tula. And I think that's just a brilliant sort of premise that we are not only going to look at this sisterhood as an institution, but at a pair of sisters who bring a very loaded family history with them as Harkonnen sisters. And I think that long before the Harkonnens become these sort of iconic villains, almost monstrous, this is a chance to look back that family and what did it mean for these two sisters to be shaping the institution of the sisterhood? So, first of all, I just want to give credit to the inspiration of that as being built into the novel. And in our series, we wanted to tell a story of the sisterhood that both looks at Vlya Harkonnen as she came into power as the second Mother Superior. Why was she chosen to inherit that position and what did she do with it, while at the same time examining the ramifications of her at more a height of her power. So to answer your question, I would say that we are tethered to the books a bit more in the past. In the young Vlya storyline that you'll be seeing and inspired by the books in the more mature Vlya storyline you'll be seeing that's unfolding in the present of our series.

[Greta Johnson]

The scope of this show in the universe is so wild. I wonder, how are you navigating that as a writer? Like, I feel like it's gotta be a really interesting balance between, like, honoring the source material, appeasing fans, but also, like, eking out your own space. Because, again, it is 10,000 years. That's a lot of zeros.

[Allison Schapker]

Yeah, it's been really, I think one of the most challenging, but also, you know, rewarding parts of it is trying to tell a story that if you're a Dune fan and you are bringing a lot of knowledge, maybe not to this corner of the Dune universe, but you're familiar with the lore that there's great stuff and you'll be picking up on nuances and aspects that, you know that it's enriching and that we're not dumbing. Anything down. But at the same time, if you're somebody who has not seen even the films or read the books, that this is also a story grounded in character. And that's very much how I try and navigate the world building, is to always be up close with the characters so that there's a story that this could be a point of entry and it would be a way to discover all of that. And as long as you sort of get to know these characters and care, that that's enough, you know, to propel you through the show.

[Greta Johnson]

So what is it? I mean, it's funny. We've talked about this on the show already, like, what it is for me and Amet, especially around the Bene Gesserit, that's just like, so exciting, I think, seeing these powerful women. I think also just the idea of, like, oh, yeah, let's put a bunch of ladies together in like a dorm situation and see what kind of drama happens. But I would love to know, like, what it is about the sisterhood that you're really excited about.

[Allison Schapker]

I mean, so many things. I mean, first of all, the. Of the Bene Gesserit. I mean, the costume alone, I feel like, you know, evokes scary nun vibes in the best possible way. And the shape of that costume that they're in was born out of the great machine wars where they had to fool thinking machines that they weren't human. So it reminds me of these garments that carry like a huge history with them and that kind of stay the same over time or with small iterations, almost like a pope's outfit or something. You know, like, you're like. It's just so iconic. Cool. So I definitely think their look and their veil and the mystery and the intrigue of who they are in their sort of public facing way is really alluring. But I also think we get to kind of go behind the veil and go into the sisterhood and see, like you said, you're at an all female institution and what are they doing behind closed doors, you know, And I think it's really fun. And one thing we found is that weirdly, there are just layers to the intrigue. You know, even when you're in their school, there's more and more to discover about them.

[Amidal Yakbur]

Yeah, what I love about it is, you know, there's always this talk with the Bene Gesserit that there's this kind of master plan, but there's people in there who are, you know, having different perspectives. But, you know, I want to go to the scary nun Vibe. I want to talk about some of the real life inspirations, you know, and research you did, both from the Dune world, but also the real world that inspired it. So could you talk a little bit about what are the sources you are pulling from and some of the research that you did to give us your take on the Sisterhood?

[Allison Schapker]

Well, I do want to make clear they're not a religious institution. But I think that Frank Herbert, you know, had aunts who had a religious background and a Jesuit background that I think he was drawing from. And I think that even though they're not a religious institution, you see the trappings of a, you know, they're called Mother Superior and Reverend Mothers and they're walking around in, you know, black outfits. And so with religion aside, I do think something like the Vatican was something like we thought about, like an institution that operates on many levels of power. So there's a sort of public facing role and they're advising leaders of state and they're in on very high level discussions in the negotiations and power plays. And I think the Sisterhood has a very noble goal in terms of wanting to protect the Imperium and guide the future. But you know, to what end and at what price, like what means are they willing to go to do that? I think they have a shadowy side too, and I think they have almost like a spy or component as they gather all that intel. So they're slippery, they're pulling strings in a pretty powerful way.

[Greta Johnson]

Yes, I love it.

[Amidal Yakbur]

In many ways we're seeing the politics of different side of the Dune universe, which is the great houses. We're really getting at the Imperium and the great houses and sort of the feudalistic, neo feudalistic, I think you've described it as. Could you talk a little bit about the political power structure that we're watching?

[Allison Schapker]

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, humans are rebuilding and they've fallen into a kind of what would appear on the one hand like a feudal society. You have an emperor and an empress sitting on a throne, but there are checks and balances in the Imperium. It is not just a. All power is concentrated on the throne. And part of that is there are also these great houses and these very noble family, these legacy families. So there's a kind of 1%, you know, of the future. And they're vying for power. And you know, it wouldn't be dune if part of that wasn't access to spice and the wealth that spice generates. And you know, who's going to be in control of that. But the great houses can unite. They really do have power in the universe. And there's something the Emperor and the Empress have to legitimately deal with as a force that makes sense.

[Greta Johnson]

I'm so excited.

[Amidal Yakbur]

Can I just say, like, in my family, the two things that we love to read are period dramas, you know, Regency stuff and sci fi. So when I got into it, I realized that there's, like a marriage happening amongst the great lords and there's also, like a sci fi element. I was like, that's a pretty nice combo. It's pretty fun.

[Allison Schapker]

Totally, totally.

[Greta Johnson]

So since this episode is coming out before the show is out for people maybe who are at least somewhat familiar with the Bene Gesserit from either the books or the movies, how at this point is the Sisterhood different from that? I mean, we're talking about 10,000 years, which is not a small span of time.

[Allison Schapker]

Well, I think the Sisterhood is in its younger, you know, along with the Imperium. I mean, this is a phase of rebuilding. I think they're in a more fragile state. I think they are certainly growing their power and growing their reach in this time period, and they are coming into their own as an institution, but they don't have a lock on it. And other schools are also rising because people no longer can use advanced thinking machine technology or artificial intelligence or all these things in the future that humanity came to depend on, but then eventually found themselves subjugated by. And so after this great struggle, you know, with mass death and suffering, humans are now thrown off their oppressors. But that leaves a void, and who's gonna fill those roles? And the Sisterhood is stepping up, I think, to help with the rebuilding and to push human evolution forward. But other people are, too. So it's a kind of competitive situation. And I would just say they're younger. They haven't. They had the benefit of all that experience that they do in the films.

[Amidal Yakbur]

Well, I think we should talk about the great Machine wars, because that is certainly something that is really important to the show. And maybe movie watchers who have not read the books are a little less familiar with. Can you tell us a little bit about what those were and where the kind of Imperium is at as a result of those Machine Wars?

[Allison Schapker]

Yeah, I think one of the things. Look, I feel like Dune is very pertinent, especially now as we're rushing headlong into artificial intelligence. And we're going to be, I think, for better and for worse and for consequences that have yet to be shaped. Giving over power in Some ways. And I think that Dune imagines a world where humans went on that ride and ended up giving away too much power and actually became enslaved by the machines that they had created. So we're on the other side of a very long war that had to be fought to free humanity. And now we're at a period where humans are very much like, rebuilding from the brink of extinction, almost like, I think as a species, you know, and there have been ways in which they've regressed, like they're in this futile kind of situation. But basically, you know, we fought the machines and we won. And what now?

[Amidal Yakbur]

It makes me wonder, how would you even go about banning new technology? Like, how do you stop people from accessing technology that they've used for so long?

[Allison Schapker]

Yeah. Can you really put a genie like that back in the bottle? And all those impulses in human beings are still present, you know, even if you've banned the technology. And so, you know, how stable is that prohibition? I think, you know, you can look at other moments of prohibition in history and you realize, like, there's a tension there to trying to keep something down. But again, time muddies people's memories. And so, I don't know, it's a slippery slope. We'll see. We'll have to see what's going on with technology in the Imperium.

[Greta Johnson]

Well, it's so interesting thinking about it, you know, with the analogy of us now, because it's like, sure, I do not want to become enslaved by technology, but also Google Maps is so helpful.

[Allison Schapker]

Yeah, I want to drive around.

[Greta Johnson]

I would like to know how to get to a place I've never been before without having to ask for direction 17 times.

[Allison Schapker]

It's totally true. Like, I definitely am of the age where I was in the car when my mother would be like, pull over and ask for directions. And my dad would be like, I know where I'm going. And, you know, that's just not happening now. You know, and now we have Gmail finishing our sentences, you know, and sometimes I take a stand, you know, they'll say, like, you want to write thanks a lot? And I'll be like, no, I want to say thank you in my own way. Way to rebel, Alice. Yeah, exactly. I'm not giving over that power. But it's by degrees, you know, it's by degrees. And I think that Dune is so exciting because it is asking these questions and it is saying, what does it mean to be human and what is our relationship to technology and what are the dangers in that? And All, I think, perfectly good questions to be asking right now.

[Greta Johnson]

I mean, you mentioned that the sisterhood, this is still very early phases. They're still kind of figuring themselves out. The voice is one of the abilities that we see used in the trailer. Do you have your impression of the voice? And if so, can we hear it now, please? Alice?

[Allison Schapker]

Oh, my God. I mean, actually, the voice is. You can't just do the voice. Like, you have to do it in many different layers, and then it. Like, it's blended and, you know, it's a whole thing. So. So I don't know, Greta.

[Amidal Yakbur]

We're practicing it on the show. I have tried a few times. It's hard. Any tips? Maybe we could use some talents on perfecting our voice.

[Allison Schapker]

Yeah. Yeah. I think moms. I think, like, moms have a mom voice, you know, where they're channeling all the mothers who came before them. It just have, like, incredibly searing look or, you know, can knock you out with, you know, raised eyebrow. And I feel like the voice is kind of, you know, on a continuum, I guess, with, you know, being able to compel somebody to change their behavior.

[Greta Johnson]

I love that. Also feminine power, you know, at least in terms of the mom, you know.

[Allison Schapker]

Yeah, that tracks exactly. Little trauma thrown in.

[Greta Johnson]

It's fine.

[Allison Schapker]

Yeah, but that's really, you know, that was something that is in, you know, rooted in the books and something that we were able to build out on. And where did that come from? And it really did come out of the specific backstory of Valya Harkonnen, and it was really exciting to get to tell it.

[Greta Johnson]

That's so cool.

[Amidal Yakbur]

So what I think is really cool about this period that you've chosen is that there is a lot of transitions happening. Dune is a lot about power and how different people show share power, how different people grab power. And so all these transitions of, like, new abilities, but also old things that are now being phased out, like the idea that we're talking about the thinking machines before. And then you have the other two new abilities that are coming into this world, which is truth saying, really changes the political world if you can tell when people are lying. And then the voice, which is you could be compelled to do something without wanting to. How did you think about writing what this means for the power of this world? Like the power dynamic?

[Allison Schapker]

Yeah. Well, that's endlessly fun and complicated and, you know, intellectually engaging to think about that stuff. I think that truth saying is really interesting to think what it would mean to be able to arm yourself. But then you're dependent on somebody telling you what's true and not true.

[Amidal Yakbur]

Right.

[Allison Schapker]

And there is a trust there, and there is a gap in terms of what somebody's gonna do with that power and that information. And are they always serving you? Are there times where they're serving themselves? At first blush, I think you would think a power of truth sense or truth saying is would create a more transparent world, but I don't know that it necessarily does because you're still dealing with human beings who are. Have their own agendas and can they be trusted? To what degree? So those are very real questions.

[Greta Johnson]

I love that. I think that's. So there are so many themes that I can't wait to kind of like, check in with you on as we go through the season too, because I feel like you've just planted so many seeds where I'm like, oh, I can't wait to see where this goes. Oh, I can't wait to see where that goes.

[Allison Schapker]

Well, that's it. We want it to be fun too.

[Amidal Yakbur]

Yes, yes, yes.

[Allison Schapker]

There are plans within plans as the Bene Gesserit.

[Greta Johnson]

I love it. I love it. Okay. So, Alison, if you had an option, would you join the sisterhood?

[Allison Schapker]

That's a good question. I mean, they are pretty intriguing. You know, I could see many paths for myself, but I think the sisterhood certainly has a lure. I probably could.

[Greta Johnson]

Would you wanna run the sisterhood? Or is that one of those, like. No, no, no. That's way too complicated.

[Allison Schapker]

Well, I mean, I love. I love being a leader, but I love being a jar. But I don't know that I would. I don't know if I would have the fortitude that some of these sisters have. You know, ultimately they really are asked to take actions that I do think in 2024, and the morality of 2024 are a bit different, or at least as I see it, like, I think, like, we're a more individually based, or at least like a lot is centered around the individual. And I think one of the things that does come out of being in the sh. Of a war where humanity was pushed so close to the brink, is people had to make massive sacrifices for the collective good of humanity. And I think that that is something our sisters are called upon to do. I think being a sister asks you to really go to some very difficult and, you know, you could say noble, or you could say, you know, whatever, but places where you're called upon to sacrifice what you might want individually for the good of the order or the good of humanity. And so I don't know. That's pretty intense place to be. So maybe. I don't know. I'm talking myself out of it. You talked yourself out of it.

[Greta Johnson]

I mean, I respect it. Yeah.

[Amidal Yakbur]

If I have to choose Mentat navigator, you know, Fremen sisterhood, I'm going to the sisterhood every time. Honestly, I don't think you could convince me to the Fremen. I would probably just because I am a frail writer type who has allergies to everything. I don't think I would survive on Arrakis otherwise. Kind of appealing, but, you know, I just don't think that's made for my particular disposition and constitution.

[Allison Schapker]

Yeah, I'm very pro Fremen, but definitely my lifestyle comforts would be rough. Yeah.

[Amidal Yakbur]

What, the dorm?

[Greta Johnson]

Yeah. Who takes the most naps?

[Allison Schapker]

Exactly. Exactly.

[Greta Johnson]

Thank you so much for joining us, Allison. We are very excited to talk with you again about the series premiere, which comes out this Sunday.

[Allison Schapker]

Oh, my pleasure. My pleasure. Looking forward to talking more and hope people enjoy the first episode.

[Greta Johnson]

All right, that's it for now. We will be back this Sunday, November 17th, right after the series premiere airs on HBO and streams on max. We are going to unpack it all with special guests from the show, so be sure to subscribe. So we are in your podcast feed.

[Amidal Yakbur]

And if you like what you're hearing, don't forget to leave a rating and review on your podcast player of choice and find us on the Dune Prophecy Social Media handles.

[Greta Johnson]

The official Dune Prophecy podcast is produced by HBO in collaboration with Pineapple Street Studios. I'm Greta Johnson.

[Amidal Yakbur]

And I'm Amadel Yakbar. Our executive producers for Pineapple street are Gabrielle Lewis, Jian Barry, and Bari Finkel. Our lead engineer for the show is Hannes Brown. Pineapple's head of sound and engineering is Raj Makhija. Pineapple's senior audio engineers are Marina Pais and Pedro Alvara. This episode is mixed by Hannah Brown.

[Greta Johnson]

This episode was edited by Darby Maloney. And our producers are Ben Goldberg and Melissa Akiko Slaughter.

[Amidal Yakbur]

Special thanks to Becky Rowe, Allison Cohen and Erin Kelly from the MAX podcast team.

[Greta Johnson]

Thanks for listening. And remember, trust no one.

[Amidal Yakbur]

No one at all. I run a school for young women. We're not a threat to anyone.