← The Official Dune: Prophecy Podcast
The Official Dune: Prophecy Podcast
Ep.1: The Hidden Hand with Showrunner Alison Schapker, EP/Writer Jordan Goldberg, and Actor Emily Watson
00:53:51
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- [00:06]
Unknown Speaker
You wish to serve the great houses as truthsayers and shape the flow of power. You must first exert power over yourself. Your mind and body must be within your control. Only then can you discern the truth.
- [00:25]
Amidal Akbar
Welcome to the official Dune Prophecy Podcast. I'm Amidal Akbar.
- [00:29]
Greta Johnson
And I'm Greta Johnson. On this show, we are unpacking every episode of the new HBO original series, Dune Prophecy, with the show's writers, cast and crew.
- [00:38]
Amidal Akbar
Today, we've got some special guests to help us dig into the premiere episode. First up, we have showrunner, writer and executive producer Allison Schapker and executive producer and writer Jordan Goldberg.
- [00:48]
Greta Johnson
Then later, we are joined by Emily Watson, who plays the mysterious sister at the heart of this new story, Balia Harkonnen.
- [00:56]
Amidal Akbar
All right, folks, be warned. There are spoilers ahead for the first episode of Doom Prophecy. So go watch that first, and I'm gonna use the voice here. Come back to us.
- [01:06]
Unknown Speaker
What holds more truth, history, or prophecy?
- [01:20]
Greta Johnson
Okay, so much happens in this first episode. We are not wasting any time, and neither is the sisterhood. Should we get into it?
- [01:27]
Amidal Akbar
Yeah, let's do it. So we have Mother Superior Valya and Sister Tula. They're preparing to welcome Princess Ines to the sisterhood. They've been working in secret for years to orchestrate a royal wedding and get Princess Inez on the throne so they can control the entire Imperium. But things are not really going as planned. On Salusa's Secondis, the home planet of Emperor Corrino, the royal marriage falls apart after a mysterious soldier from Arrakis named Desmond Hart shows up and murders both the young groom to be and Kasha, a member of the sisterhood assigned to House Corrino.
- [01:55]
Greta Johnson
This leaves us with a great many questions, especially, who the heck is Desmond Hart? And is a reckoning coming?
- [02:09]
Amidal Akbar
So, Greta, we both watched the episode for the first time last night, and they've done a really good job here of not overwhelming you, but you do have to pay attention. It asks you to pay attention. It rewards a close listen and watch. And I'm excited to see more of that with what they've set up here.
- [02:25]
Greta Johnson
So it seems to me the main thread of this episode, in addition to just, like, general sisterhood drama, is this marriage that seems to have really fallen apart by the end of this episode.
- [02:37]
Amidal Akbar
For a lot of reasons, namely Desmond Hart from Arrakis.
- [02:41]
Greta Johnson
I was not expecting that at all, were you?
- [02:44]
Amidal Akbar
No, I was like, he seems kind of, you know, like, roguish, but not like murdering two people on two different planets. He kills the groom to be. And Kasha, who was a member of the Sisterhood, who was really close to the Imperium. They die in two separate places. And so there's a lot of questions.
- [03:00]
Greta Johnson
I mean, Kasha was seeing a lot of issues with this whole situation. Like, she knew that things were not going the way they should. Which also I think is pretty interesting just in terms of, like, you know, the mother Superior, the people in charge, thought this was a great idea and, like, kept double checking that. Even when we also just saw that idea of sifting truth from lies. You know, we saw that in the training session at the school. It's very clear that that is, at this point, arguably one of their most important role, the sisterhood, being the person to determine whether people are telling the truth to the people in power.
- [03:32]
Amidal Akbar
Yeah, I mean, we see that it's not infallible either. They make sure to demonstrate that, you know, they can't necessarily specifically say which parts of the truth are fully true and which parts of the lies are fully lies. You know what I mean? Which is a really interesting way to think about politics as well. Right. Like, that's what politics is all about. Right. Like putting a little bit of lie on the truth. Putting a little bit of truth on the lie so that you can get your way.
- [03:56]
Unknown Speaker
Whew.
- [03:57]
Amidal Akbar
That's real.
- [03:58]
Greta Johnson
Yeah.
- [03:58]
Amidal Akbar
And Valya is our kind of way in, I would say. And she is somebody who's getting questioned a lot, but has a very strong sense of what she wants. You know, she commands a room when she walks in. Valya, she really.
- [04:10]
Greta Johnson
Well, and speaking of being commanding, 30 years before the action of the main series, she uses the voice for the first time and is literally very commanding.
- [04:20]
Amidal Akbar
I think one of my major takeaways that I love about Dune is the idea of the voice being a thing that can actually change history, meaning a person's speech, a person's, like, charisma, a person's ability to manipulate can literally change the course of history. And that's what happens in that first scene you're describing. First time the voice is used. It actually changes the course of history for the sisterhood.
- [04:47]
Greta Johnson
Now, each episode we are going to have a segment that we are calling beyond the Veil, and we are going to dive deeper into the episode with some truthsayers from the show. Today. We have showrunner, writer and executive producer Alison Schapker back with us, and executive producer and writer Jordan Goldberg here for the first time. So let's get into it and go beyond the Veil. Welcome to the podcast. Jordan Goldberg and Alison Schapker. We are very happy to have you here.
- [05:17]
Amidal Akbar
So this is exciting because we now get to talk about the first episode. The first time we talked to Allison, there were no spoilers. Now we are getting into spoiler territory. So that's very exciting for us. But, you know, let's do a little bit of background first. Jordan, we heard Alison's Dune origin story in our last episode. But what about you? What was your relationship like with Dune prior to the show?
- [05:37]
Jordan Goldberg
My gateway to Dune was actually the video game, which I think was titled Dune 2. It came out on the PCs 1992. And that game is very cool because it teaches you kind of all the rules and what there are and all the stakes of what it's like to be in Arrakis. You're, like, mining spice. It's a strategy game. You're ordering off attacks against the Harkonnens. And I think it actually was a very influential game. I think it was, like one of its first of its kind. So I played that game, and I got really interested in Dune. And I remember going back and watching the movie again, and then the movie, the 1984 movie. And that just really captured my imagination.
- [06:15]
Amidal Akbar
In case you can't tell from my face, you're kind of blowing my mind, because somehow I was like a big PC gamer around that time. And I feel like I maybe played that in before I knew Dune, the book and never put it together. I have to look up footage of.
- [06:29]
Jordan Goldberg
It would take your life away, too, because you constantly would mine spice all the time. You know what I mean? Yeah.
- [06:36]
Amidal Akbar
Yeah, I gotta look that up.
- [06:39]
Jordan Goldberg
Oh, my gosh.
- [06:40]
Greta Johnson
That's delightful. So I would love to hear how you two sort of figured out the flow of working together.
- [06:48]
Allison Schapker
Well, Jordan and I worked together on Westworld season four. And, I mean, that was its own epic adventure. And, you know, I had the pleasure of really working side by side with Jordan through all aspects of the season. And when I was in a position to tap a comrade to come over and help me with Dune, Jordan was the first person I called.
- [07:14]
Jordan Goldberg
Yeah, I got lucky to work with Alison. I mean, Allison, it struck me because, you know, the thing about Westworld, which is really kind of nice, and it was really nice education into going into this series, was that it's a lot about the details. It's a lot of world building. And I remember very early on, it was when we were in the 1920s park, the noir park. Remember, we were trying guns, various different guns. On people and stuff. And I was like, wow. Alice was really into details. Like, this is, like, not. But I was respected because, like, that's, like, that's what it takes to be, like, a real world builder. Like, you gotta be able to kind of go through all those motions. And that continued when Alison and I worked in pose together. You know, she really got into the minutia things, and that's about respecting the iPad. So when I heard she was doing Dune, I was like, well, they found the right person to do that because she's going to take that very seriously. And when she called me about Dune, I was like, wow. I mean, like, the idea of doing it as a television show is just really, really. It seems extremely challenging, but really kind of intriguing.
- [08:17]
Greta Johnson
So I think we should get into the show since you're talking about how exciting it is to create the TV show. Our first episode is called the Hidden Hand.
- [08:25]
Amidal Akbar
I want to talk about that opening sequence in voiceover, when humans rose up.
- [08:29]
Unknown Speaker
Against the thinking machines that had enslaved them. History says it was an Atreides who led them to victory, while my great grandfather deserted the fight. When war ended and all thinking machine technology was banned, history branded my family as cowards. And so we were banished to a desolate world.
- [08:58]
Amidal Akbar
What were you trying to accomplish and why did we go right into this narration?
- [09:02]
Allison Schapker
I think there was a real feeling, and I mean, this was part of threading that needle where you wanted Dune fans to come on board, but also open up a space for people who maybe are not as familiar with the basic premise of the world. And it felt important to us to take people's hand through our main character, to just set the stakes a bit of where we were in time and that this was going to be her story that we were telling.
- [09:33]
Jordan Goldberg
Yeah, and I think that's right. I think what I really liked about it was it wasn't just about setting up the kind of context of the story, but it also sort of like, introduced the wound that this character had without kind of going into a lot of details. But, you know, I mean, this is not only who becomes the second Mother Superior of the Sisterhood, but it's also someone who is a Harkonnen and tells you from the get go that what we thought has happened to the Harkonnens is not really the truth. You know, she's caught between this idea that, you know, she has lived through a point where, like, history is not the truth. So, you know, is she gonna end up in a world where prophecy becomes her truth and that's just a very interesting idea, I think. And so it's a trifecta. It's doing a lot of stuff there.
- [10:15]
Greta Johnson
I think it really comes through. And it's really interesting to think about, like the tricky balance, especially in the first couple minutes of a new show like this, where, like, you don't want to go too exposition heavy, but you need to explain enough. You do need to establish the stakes. I think it's just like, yes, a difficult needle to thread. And y'all did a great job with it. It's interesting to think about one of the big themes of this show being that idea of sifting truth from lies. And that's what, obviously one of the things that, like, the sisterhood is so good at doing. But it does make me wonder how much, given the fact that history can be so subjective, like, how much can we trust Valia's version?
- [10:54]
Allison Schapker
Well, exactly. Cause, you know, she's also telling a story. So she's telling you that the story of history written by the Atreides is not what it seems. But at the same time, of course, it wouldn't be dune if we didn't ask ourselves, well, where is Valya's perspective rooted?
- [11:11]
Jordan Goldberg
Yeah, I mean, it feels like a confession, but maybe it. You'll get a sense that it's more of a rationale, if you get my drift.
- [11:18]
Greta Johnson
I like that.
- [11:20]
Amidal Akbar
I like that a lot. So in this opening, we learn about the first Mother Superior, Raquela Valya calls her true mother. What was Raquela's role in the great Machine Wars?
- [11:30]
Allison Schapker
She found the sisterhood sort of after the Machine Wars. I mean, she was a doctor, she was a scientist. In our opening, you see her on the battlefield almost in a medicine kind of role, you know, attending to the wounded. And she saw a great deal of suffering. But what happens to her after that is she actually is poisoned and she has a near death experience and she exerts in that moment of crisis such incredible control over her body on a cellular level. She actually synthesizes an antidote to the poison she's been given from chemicals in her own cells. And sort of side effect that not only does she live, but she unlocks her genetic memory, which is key to the sisterhood, and connects to the wisdom of all her female ancestors. And that's what Jordan, when he referred to other memory, this notion that suddenly the wisdom of generations and the pain of generations was accessible to her. And it helps her kind of see her purpose going forward, which is that the Imperium will need to be guided by wisdom on that deep a level if it's going to stand a chance. And for her to do that will mean somehow taking this skill that was born out of crisis for her and passing it on to other women. And so she gathers women around her and it begins to form this order that will dedicate itself to guiding the future, but also will be recruiting women because it turns out genetic memory is passed down through the maternal line of generations in the body in our Dune lore. So that's part of why it grows up to be an all female order. And we're gonna see in future episodes a little bit what that means to young women who come to the sisterhood and are asked to trained to do the same thing Raquela did under great duress.
- [13:46]
Greta Johnson
I love that there's sort of like a mitochondria implication to all of it. That's really cool.
- [13:50]
Allison Schapker
Yeah. I love that Dune is grounded in science.
- [13:53]
Greta Johnson
Yes.
- [13:54]
Allison Schapker
And, yes, it's sort of sci fi science and science of the future. But like, it really, you know, it grounds itself kind of what appears to be superpowers to us by our sort of human standards, after 10,000 years of evolution, and then with the control they're exerting and then pushing the boundaries forward, they ground it. Yes. In Dune science, that's also just like.
- [14:18]
Greta Johnson
A super badass backstory.
- [14:20]
Allison Schapker
Yeah, yeah, for sure. She's very formidable. And I think what that means to our show is that Valya Harkonnen has incredible shoes to fill. And, you know, Raquela Berto Anarul founded the order, but she's not immortal. And at some point she had to look to who she was going to pass this mission onto. So, yeah, she's a very huge figure in Valya Harkonnen's life.
- [14:49]
Greta Johnson
So, yeah, speaking of her mortality, on her deathbed, she's got a vision, which we see in the show. I think we should unpack it a little bit. We see the sisterhood school being eaten up by sandworms. We see burning skin, blood dripping across the floor, and two glowing blue eyes. And I would love to know, as much as you are able to talk about it, given spoilers and everything, how you chose those images and what Raquela thinks it all means.
- [15:17]
Allison Schapker
Well, I mean, Raquela's having a moment of prescience on her deathbed, so she is glimpsing images of a future. So I wouldn't want to give away any spoilers, but I will tell you, like, they're not by accident.
- [15:32]
Amidal Akbar
Well, I Guess it's worth asking, like, what is the significance for the order? Is prescience and future sight something that they have dealt with before? Or is this, you know, like, does it feel like prophecy and religious in any way? Or is it feeling like a science thing where, like, this is going to. I'm sure we'll answer some of these questions as time goes on, but I'm just curious. Like, it just has an interesting setup for people to interpret, because it's like the dying wish is complicated by this flash of a vision.
- [16:02]
Jordan Goldberg
It is an interesting point that you bring up because, like, you know, 10,000 years later, around the story, around Paul Atreides, you know, prophecy comes to mean something else. I mean, it's a controlled narrative that they're using. And because we're telling a sort of a foundational story, you know, the ability to do that has to come from somewhere. You know what I mean? Some kind of event has to kind of spark that idea. So a real prophecy seems to be kind of a natural way to kind of start that, you know, progression.
- [16:31]
Allison Schapker
I agree. I mean, I think it's very much an inciting incident of Raquela's moment of prescience. And it is as taking a notion that will become incredibly complicated in the world of Dune. Right? Like, it's like, but is this a moment of truth? Is this, you know, this vision? But what is Valya gonna learn by dealing with that prophecy and working against it or working to grow the Sisterhood so that it's prepared for this reckoning that's coming? And what is she gonna learn in the process? And I think what Jordan's pointing to is like, the Sisterhood, which will eventually become the Bene Gesserit, which will actually eventually almost weaponize prophecy in the future. I don't think that's their only relationship to it. And we really wanted to start them somewhere different, somewhere grounded and in a sort of more pure place with it.
- [17:21]
Greta Johnson
So, of course, we see a schism form. There's question of what should happen next. There are two factions of the Sisterhood. One is led by Dorotea, and one is led by Valya. Let's listen to a clip of their argument.
- [17:34]
Unknown Speaker
Why do you need access to the Breeding Index?
- [17:39]
Allison Schapker
So I can return the Sisterhood to its values.
- [17:44]
Unknown Speaker
You can't do this.
- [17:45]
Greta Johnson
We are the hand that points toward a righteous path. We are meant to guide the Imperium, not rule it.
- [17:50]
Amidal Akbar
We must create the path and lead others to it.
- [17:53]
Unknown Speaker
We're the only ones who can.
- [17:55]
Greta Johnson
Ever since you arrived you and your sister Tula, you've thought too highly of yourself. Okay, so can we unpack a little bit? I mean, we've gotten some hints about what's really at the heart of this disagreement, but I think it's very interesting how differently each of them sees the purpose of the sisterhood. Yes.
- [18:11]
Allison Schapker
And Dorotea, who is Riquella Berto, Anarul's granddaughter, was very much the one who was, for a long time, I would say, Rickela would tell you that she was going to become the second Mother Superior. And she's really a formidable, foundational sister for the order, because I think it's fine to tell the audience at this point that she is the sister who actually, you know, unlocked truth sense. So she is someone who did push the boundaries of what it means to be human forward. And the whole reason that the sisters can go out into the imperium and function as human lie detectors really goes back to Dorotea. So she is a sister of great power, but she goes on a mission and hangs out with a group of anti technology zealots that are referred to as the Butlerian movement. And she's kind of converted, and she comes back very much sharing their beliefs, and Raquela does not share those beliefs. So it's sort of. And here's Raquela feeling that the end of her life is coming. She needs to pass on her mission. She needs to pass on her great work. But the woman she thought she could hand it to would never guide it now, given her new belief system and the way that Raquela needs it to be guided. And one of the things we're gonna explore this season is, like, how Valya came to the sisterhood and for Raquela, offered a way out of an impasse. And so when we pick them up in the premiere and we're catching them after Raquela's death, you're seeing two women of great force who have opposing philosophies of what the role of the sisterhood is and what means justify what ends.
- [19:53]
Amidal Akbar
Wow. I love this so much. As somebody who is a failed scholar of religion, I just feel like there's so many ways in which you can see historical moments that this also, you know, like the generation right after, like, you know, not uncommon for them to be killing each other in the hopes of, you know, trying to figure out what the pathway is. So it's really cool to see this, like, kind of alternative history. Let's talk about that scene where Valya kills Dorothea using the Voice.
- [20:19]
Allison Schapker
I will Never bend to you, Valya Harkonnen.
- [20:29]
Jordan Goldberg
Then take out your blade.
- [20:34]
Unknown Speaker
Drive it into your throat.
- [20:42]
Amidal Akbar
I wanna talk about that moment and how you thought the audience would react to it because it is a very shocking thing the way it happens. I heard Take out yout Blade in the trailer and yet I did not expect that moment at all that, you know, Valya would use the Voice to make Dorothea kill herself. What is the audience supposed to take from this about Valya? What kind of character is this?
- [21:06]
Allison Schapker
I mean, it just really is a bold way to sort of, I think, stake. To plant that first stake in the ground for the show, you know, which is this is Dune. This is the story of where the Bene Gesserit came from. And the voice is such an iconic power and the fact that it was used within the sisterhood, sister to sister in this kind of foundational crime, that is, I think has to be debated, you know, as we get to know the story better. Was that the only way? Like, I mean, that's something that we are really going to examine. And I don't think the answer is obvious given the stakes. You know, sometimes when you're operating, like Jordan said on Generations, and also a sense of if you cannot guide or set the path, like Falya's saying, and you backslide into a kind of war and tyranny and the amount of suffering, it's sort of. It starts to raise that question of like, did this need to happen so that other suffering and death could be prevented? And also I think it sort of plants it within the sisterhood. Right. Like the stakes of the macro, the universe is big, but also, you know, it's also within this organization and power is within this institution and it's being fought within itself as well.
- [22:32]
Jordan Goldberg
Whether Valya's a tragic hero or an anti hero, I think we'll figure it out as we go along in our story. But if we're treating her that way, the act of damnation that she commits happens in the first five minutes of the show is pretty, pretty amazing. I mean, when Alicent. When I first read what we were doing to me, I was like, wow, that really pulls the rug out from you. Cause now you don't know what to expect to this person. Is she a hero? Is she the villain? You. And then you realize that, you know, again, like true to Dune, it's all morally ambiguous and true to the Bene Gesserit, it's all about the shadows. And there's just, you know, more. There's no light for morality to exist in there. And this moment really kind of signifies that. And also, just don't fuck with Vali Harkonnen.
- [23:21]
Greta Johnson
Well, yes, obvious, that's very clear.
- [23:25]
Jordan Goldberg
Yeah.
- [23:26]
Greta Johnson
So, like, speaking of the sisterhood and sort of the dual meanings that you're working with within, especially this first episode, but I imagine the rest of the series as well. I would love to talk more too about Valya's sister Tula, who. I mean, it almost. It doesn't seem quite as like, stridently different as Dorotea and Valya's disagreement, but it's clear that they do still have a bit of friction, which is really interesting.
- [23:53]
Allison Schapker
No, they do. I mean, I think some of it comes from their family and their past, which we're going to explore in the series. So I do think that they have tension they've carried with them.
- [24:05]
Jordan Goldberg
Yeah. I also think it's fascinating that anytime you're telling a story where two characters are hand in hand as they trot off into the dark and get up to some questionable stuff, one of them has more awareness than the other and that's your source of conflict. And I find that really interesting because you would imagine one person with awareness has more guilt than the other. But, you know, sometimes it's not the truth. It's very fascinating how people deal with, you know, that knowledge of right or wrong and, you know, or where they, where they stand on the moral compass. It's a very layered relationship and we kind of drafted it that way.
- [24:45]
Amidal Akbar
So, yeah, we have to make sure we talk about the royal wedding. On Salusa Secundus. We have the Emperor House Corrino, Princess Inez getting married somewhat happily to a. To the Richese boy Pruitt. He's nine. Not what I would have expected. So, you know, let's talk a little bit about this other messed up family we've got.
- [25:10]
Allison Schapker
Yeah, well, I love the Princess Inez and the notion that she very much is experiencing the desire to shape her own. And that has been a lifelong dream to go study at the sisterhood. You know, she's been in the orbit of Kasha, who is her father's truthsayer, but somebody who was a figure who we're gonna learn about Inez's past and understand that the sisterhood really played a key role in it in the future. But Kasha's a very important person to her and in some ways somebody she idealizes and has looked up to. And so I think in thinks that marrying a nine year old kid, if it gives her years of freedom until he comes of age and she gets to go study at the sisterhood. By the time she returns to take the throne, she will be her own truthsayer. And she longs for that control. I think she feels like her position makes her vulnerable and that she wants to shore herself up and be a formidable empress someday. It's kind of a great plan that's very close to happening. They almost have her. And of course, in any good premiere, things don't work out exactly as planned.
- [26:32]
Jordan Goldberg
Yeah, no.
- [26:32]
Unknown Speaker
Desmond.
- [26:33]
Jordan Goldberg
Desmond. Although the meeting, the sisterhood, you know, the show is also kind of getting behind the scenes of the Imperial family, you know, and I think one of the interesting aspects about the Imperial family is that the fact that this engagement has to happen means how tenuous their power really is. You know, they have to do things to shore up spice, you know, production. They're kind of, you know, at the. I wouldn't say they're at the whim of the great houses, but they are not lording over anything in a total, you know, power position. So, you know, the fact that she has to marry and a very independent, strong minded person has to be married to a nine year old kid to shore up this relationship is, you know, it shows you the kind of power dynamics in this kind of interstellar feudal society.
- [27:21]
Greta Johnson
So, yeah, Jordan, you mentioned Desmond. He's sort of our like mysterious stranger who comes to town and he tells a story about surviving disaster on Arrakis. And sister Kasha, who advises House Corrino, uses her truth saying abilities and essentially says like, what he's saying is either true or at least he believes it to be true. This is such an interesting introduction to a new character. I would love to know how you decided to start there with him. And even like how you talked to the actor who plays Desmond about his character and how you wanted him to carry himself. In this first scene we see him.
- [28:05]
Jordan Goldberg
Desmond Hart is about telling the truth. You know, he kind of weaponizes the truth. He's very out in the open and sometimes the truth is a sharp edge that a lot of people can't take. And I think he wields it like a sword. Now. I think he's telling the truth, but, you know, there's a very strong omission there. So I don't know if that qualifies as a lie or not. There's a part of the story that he's not telling that we find out later in the episode. And I think that Travis Fimble, I think his way of approaching that story is to be authentic in believing everything that Desmond says. At the same time, he's very good about keeping all of his cards close to the vest. Because what I love about that scene in particular is he says what he has to say. He warns the emperor of this insurgency that the emperor didn't know about. The emperor invites him to stay. They walk out together. He turns around and he stares at Kasha, who's feeling something's not right. And the face that he flashes at her is both. Feels like a sneer, but also sort of innocent, but also sort of like, you know, curious. I mean, there's so many emotions you can read from there. I mean, obviously, you know, you're getting some weird vibes from him, clearly. You know, so the way Travis is always playing is that you're always supposed to be, you know, on your toes and not understand what's going on there. You know, he keeps you just off kilter. And, you know, ultimately, that's what makes him an interesting Rasputin, like, character. You know what I mean? Is he Rasputin?
- [29:49]
Amidal Akbar
Of course he's Rasputin. I totally see.
- [29:53]
Jordan Goldberg
And I think that's very fitting for Dune because it's all about prophets and fake prophets and, you know.
- [29:58]
Greta Johnson
Yes, right.
- [29:59]
Amidal Akbar
You know, I want to talk as a viewer, just, like, how we experienced it as we're getting to the end of the episode here. Like, me and Greta talked about how we saw him as kind of a rogue, maybe like a Dunkin, Idaho type. And I was also expecting Pruitt Richese to be a long line of, you know, terrible child empress you love to hate. And then this poor child is at the very end here, see him burning to death, suffering. Not even dying in a quick way. He's suffering through that death. And on the other hand, we have Kasha. Kasha is also dying a very similar death on the Sisterhood planet. Let's talk about that finale. Like, it really subverted a lot of my expectations of what I thought was gonna happen. You know, he kind of becomes like, it was there, but I just didn't expect it at that moment. And, like, what does it say about what Desmond wants and what he's capable of?
- [30:52]
Allison Schapker
I do want to just. It's such a good. So many good questions. I do want to say the actor who played. No, no, it's fantastic. You know, one of the things we're so blessed by is. Right. We just are so blown away by the cast we've assembled and.
- [31:05]
Greta Johnson
Yes.
- [31:05]
Allison Schapker
But we've had just tremendous fortune of having, you know, guest cast come on and even if they're playing a limited role. And Charlie Hudson, pr, Who plays Pruitt, just came and just came, like, just. And so much to put on a.
- [31:23]
Amidal Akbar
So good shoulders.
- [31:25]
Allison Schapker
And, you know, not only was, like, acting in scenes with, like, hundreds of extras, but also, like, toe to toe with Travis Fomal, and, like, that was.
- [31:32]
Jordan Goldberg
His first day of shooting.
- [31:33]
Allison Schapker
You're talking about. Yeah.
- [31:35]
Amidal Akbar
Wow.
- [31:36]
Allison Schapker
Unbelievable. So I just want to give a.
- [31:38]
Jordan Goldberg
Yeah, that was first.
- [31:39]
Allison Schapker
Yes, that was first. So, anyway, we felt incredibly blessed with that, and I love Pruitt. I mean, like, you know, again, sort of like the opening, letting you know that, like, we're not gonna pull any punches. Like, you know, it's sort of like, you know, and, you know, Desmond right away is like. He does carry with him in tremendous force and also tremendous mission and charm. And charm and charisma.
- [32:03]
Amidal Akbar
We were charmed by him. You know, we were like, ooh, what are you gonna do? You know, not murder a kid.
- [32:08]
Greta Johnson
Not expecting him.
- [32:10]
Allison Schapker
He looks so heartbroken when he does it. You know, I have to hand it to Travis for that.
- [32:16]
Jordan Goldberg
One of the things that I got really excited about, you know, his wardrobe, Desmond's wardrobe, that trench coat is, to me, as a film fan, reminds me of all the trench coats of the cowboys and Once Upon a Time in the west, when they're waiting for Charlie Bronson at the train station. And, like, you know, just so, like, when we see him walking into the palace, he's got this unfurled coat. We're behind him. We're told that he's a hero. We're told that he's a survivor. He's telling the story about some rebel attack. I mean, all. All these things are like, yeah, he's got a weird vibe. Travis is doing it in a weird vibe, but it's generally, you're checking in the good category. Like, I could trust this guy. You know what I mean? And it's at the end, just, like, does the most ghastly thing, and he just burns, like, you know, a kid in front of you, and it's just like, whoa.
- [33:04]
Allison Schapker
And suddenly the sisters, like, you're like, oh, they have a very formidable adversary, and everybody's willing to go to great lengths. So what's gonna go down?
- [33:16]
Greta Johnson
It's so interesting because I think as an actor, and because the way that character's written even already, I'm still sort of like, well, but he must have some end in mind to justify this horrible behavior. Like, it doesn't seem like he is reveling in Killing this kid, you know.
- [33:32]
Allison Schapker
And I don't think, by the way, for the. I do wanna say I don't think Valya was reveling in killing Dorotea. Like, I think these are people who have bigger, larger, like you said, drives and goals and feel the stakes are high enough that they'll go to great lengths. But I think both of them are doing what they perceive they need to be doing.
- [33:54]
Jordan Goldberg
Well, the wards are important here. Right? Cause he tells the kid before he kills him that his death is a sacrifice, not a murder.
- [34:01]
Amidal Akbar
Yes, I said murder. Cause that's how I saw it.
- [34:04]
Allison Schapker
Yeah. Yeah.
- [34:06]
Greta Johnson
Not inaccurate.
- [34:08]
Jordan Goldberg
So in Desmond's eyes, this is for the greater good, you know? And this begins the first game within a game.
- [34:17]
Greta Johnson
Well, it was an action packed premiere, and we can't wait to keep watching more episodes. And thank you so much for helping unpack it with us. This was such a pleasure. Allison and Jordan, y'all are the best.
- [34:28]
Allison Schapker
Oh, totally. Pleasure.
- [34:29]
Jordan Goldberg
Thank you very much.
- [34:34]
Greta Johnson
And now to get into this premiere even more, we are thrilled to welcome Valya Harkonnen herself to the pod. Emily Watson, thank you so much for joining us.
- [34:44]
Unknown Speaker
Well, hello.
- [34:45]
Greta Johnson
I would love to start by asking what your relationship to Dune was like before taking on this project.
- [34:51]
Unknown Speaker
Virginal, I'd say is my answer. Well, I'd seen the first Villeneuve movie.
- [34:58]
Greta Johnson
Okay.
- [34:59]
Unknown Speaker
But apart from that, I didn't really know very much, and I actually quite glad I didn't because there's a very intimidating public ownership of the. Of the universe of it, and a very clear sense of people's right and the wrong way to do this. And there's the Lychee and the mob, and there's the Vilnervians, and there's, you know, there's factions, and everybody wants to see different things represented. So I just kind of started chewing into the scripts. And we went on a very steep learning curve with Alison and Jordan about who was who and what was what and what had happened and who'd done what to who.
- [35:41]
Greta Johnson
It is a formidable fandom, for sure.
- [35:44]
Unknown Speaker
I've been to Comic Con. I am.
- [35:46]
Allison Schapker
I am never the same. I am well aware.
- [35:50]
Amidal Akbar
The terror of Comic Con.
- [35:52]
Allison Schapker
Amazing.
- [35:54]
Amidal Akbar
What did you realize when you went to Comic Con or when you have been exposed to this new fandom? Like, have you seen the fan base and the impact on pop culture? What do you think of it as somebody who is not in that world before this?
- [36:07]
Unknown Speaker
Well, just the passion involved is phenomenal and how strongly people feel about it, but also how many people for whom it was reading the book. The first book was a formative experience and kind of, you know, set their imagination on fire and got them into sci fi and got them into that sense of the world of literature and the imagination investigating, just kind of everything.
- [36:38]
Greta Johnson
It is really interesting to think about, from your point of view, bringing your own sensibility to this role, especially as a Harkonnen, which is, you know, a very well known and I mean, often sort of reviled character, at least in the original Dune book and movies. It makes sense to me that. I mean, it seems like there would be a lot of strengths for you kind of coming in fresh as opposed to bringing all of that potential baggage with you.
- [37:08]
Unknown Speaker
And also, you know, I'm kind of really quite out of my lane now. I don't think I'm known for my work in the world of science fiction, so. But it's the same skill set, really. But yeah, it's, you know, there was a. There was a very chewy lot of things to get into as an actor, you know, and it's, you know, you just start investigating and finding all the things that make it feel real, I guess.
- [37:36]
Amidal Akbar
You know, as you said, like, Dune is still very much grounded in relationships and people. And obviously one of the core relationships here is your onscreen chemistry with Olivia Williams, who plays your sister Tula.
- [37:48]
Unknown Speaker
Am I allowed to swear?
- [37:50]
Amidal Akbar
Yeah, I believe so.
- [37:52]
Unknown Speaker
We are a very fucked up family. I mean, really.
- [37:58]
Greta Johnson
Yeah, yeah.
- [37:59]
Unknown Speaker
We've got a lot of issues, a lot of anger. Yeah, yeah. But it starts, you know, it starts with a lie that the Atreides clan told about us. That we were traitors, that we, we were cowards in the battle of Corinne, which is a lie. And it is. I thought we were banished. I know it is.
- [38:24]
Greta Johnson
I'm sorry to laugh. I just think it's really funny. Like, you are stating your position and I respect it.
- [38:30]
Allison Schapker
Yeah.
- [38:31]
Unknown Speaker
So we get banished to this awful, terrible, frost bitten, God awful place in, you know, the back of the end of the universe. And. And it's a stinging, humiliating place to be for someone who is very powerful and ambitious as a young woman and has a very strong sense of injustice and rage.
- [38:57]
Greta Johnson
Well, I would love to talk more about your relationship with, well, your character's relationship with Tula and also your relationship with Olivia, because it does seem like obviously there are tensions between you two as literal sisters in this world, but you also do still. I don't know, do you trust each other? It seems like you respect each other at least.
- [39:18]
Unknown Speaker
Yeah, I think you know, it's complicated as all relationships with sisters are. I mean we have first of all, not, you know, only a few of them you know about so far. But we have a lot of very deep, dark secrets to keep and that keeps us close and we have that, you know, Valia is a natural leader. She's very straightforward in a way. She just, she doesn't feel she needs to enter into any kind of social contract with anybody unless she wants something from them. She is, she's like a slightly psychopathic really. She's a bit of a shark. I sort of quote this as a way to understanding value that when a human being is born it takes at least six months before they can move from the spot without help and they have to form relationships with the people who are caring for them. And that's how we get a society. That's how everything happens. A shark abandons its young within seconds. Wow. And I think that's. There's a sort of cold, dead eyed part of Valia that's just because she's, you know, several steps ahead.
- [40:40]
Amidal Akbar
Right.
- [40:41]
Unknown Speaker
All the time, really, really smart and can see, you know, she's been, she's been selected by a charismatic leader and been told you're, you're the one, you're the chosen one, you are powerful, you're talented. And she's, that's a very dangerous thing to do to a young person. And she believes the end justifies the means. Her sister is to her a loyal follower. Tula is absolutely uses social interaction to achieve her ends. She's very warm and she's very nice.
- [41:15]
Greta Johnson
And loving, but seems more emotional too.
- [41:19]
Unknown Speaker
She's more emotional and possibly that's more dangerous, I guess.
- [41:24]
Amidal Akbar
Let's talk about. Do they see each other as tools or is there like genuine affection or connection to them that beyond their both being sisters in this thing that they both believe in the non. Sisterhood. Sisterhood meaning like the Bene Gesserit versus their own sisterhood. Like can you talk about that?
- [41:41]
Unknown Speaker
Definitely. There is a very strong familial bond and what drives a lot of what they do is that sense of vengeance for their family. They do love each other. They, you know, they would sacrifice everything for each other, but at the same time they irritate the shit out of each other.
- [42:02]
Greta Johnson
Siblings.
- [42:03]
Allison Schapker
Yeah, yeah, siblings. Yeah.
- [42:05]
Unknown Speaker
I mean it's an untapped, you could power the planet with cyber rivingry. The power of it, it's such a force. And you know, Tula's definitely got younger sister syndrome. She's always in her sister's shadow. And Valia doesn't really care whether, you know, she doesn't care for that. She's like, it's not important. We just gotta get on with the job.
- [42:31]
Greta Johnson
So you talked about how Valya's three steps ahead. She clearly has a well defined path that she sees as being correct for the sisterhood. Can you describe from your perspective what that vision is?
- [42:46]
Unknown Speaker
Well, at the beginning of the series, we see the plan coming to fruition. The sisterhood are poised to have the kind of piece of the puzzle fall into place that will set them on the right path, set everything further. When Princess Inez is betrothed to Pruitt, riches. It's not just a. A marriage that is good for the. For the Corrinos because they get all the spaceships and protect Arrakis. You know, that's. From Corino's point of view, that's a good thing. But what it actually is that the breeding index. The breeding index has told them that that marriage will produce strong leaders, but also Pruitt, because Pruitt is underage. He's only nine when they get engaged. Nice. There will be many years before he comes of age, while Inez can come over to our planet and start training as a. As a sister. And so when she then ascends the throne, she will be a powerful sister, you know, running the universe. And that's our plan. And it's all for the good of humankind and peace and prosperity, you understand?
- [44:03]
Greta Johnson
Oh, I love the way you say that. Because it's so much more complicated than that, though, obviously. Right?
- [44:08]
Unknown Speaker
Yes, yes. I mean, I think she can't help herself, that the drive within her of the rage and the fury. She's got other agendas going on. I mean, when we first. I don't know if you've spoken to Olivia yet, but when we. When we first met for this, we will get back to that. We met back in 1990s at the Royal Shakespeare Company. That's where we first met. But when we first met up to, you know, getting ready for this, we went and sat in the National Portrait Gallery in London and sat in front of the portrait of Elizabeth I and all those Tudor women, Bloody Mary, Mary, Queen of Scots. All those women who were, you know, either people wanted to marry them or kill them, you know, and they were very loving relationships that ended in beheading. And that very, very sense of people who are incredibly powerful, very paranoid, have to have a sort of poker face because they can't give anything away. But it's cold, quiet power. And it was a police state. They controlled the narrative. You know, we here in this country, we have an image of Elizabeth I as a Renaissance golden. It was a golden age, the Elizabethan Age. And in fact, that's probably the result of the very successful PR machine of the day. And in fact, it was pretty. Pretty terrifying time to be alive. And what is a really interesting parallel, I think, with these women is that it was about control of the narrative, controlling. Controlling the pr, controlling communications between everybody and knowing exactly who was where and who was talking to who. And that's what the Sisterhood do, is they ostensibly provide service to mankind in that they are truth sayers. They can say, well, that guy's lying. That guy's telling the truth. But actually it becomes a commodity and they employ the dark arts. As you see in that scene where Corino is negotiating and the two women are just sort of doing the finger talking and saying, we'll deal with that later. You make him do this and I'll make him do that.
- [46:34]
Greta Johnson
Yes, that was a really indicative scene because it was like, oh, they don't actually. This isn't about what he wants as much as it's about what they can manage.
- [46:43]
Unknown Speaker
The Sisterhood agenda is much more important than any of the players that they're supposedly supporting.
- [46:50]
Amidal Akbar
Right, right. So we have to ask you about the voice, because it's like the signature ability of the Sisterhood. You know, in this episode, we see a young Valya kill Dorotea using the voice. Young Valya says it's something she's been working on. Yeah, I want to hear about. Well, first of all, your performance of the voice, when we get that. And also, what do you imagine was the origin of this ability?
- [47:13]
Unknown Speaker
Well, I think this is one of the kind of really interesting things about Brian Herbert's idea of what the Bene Gesserit are. And that after the Machine wars, humankind has survived just. And defeated AI, and they now have. They're kind of driven to develop themselves in ways that makes them much more powerful, much more able to achieve things, much more strong and defend, you know, defendable in and of themselves, not relying on machines, not relying on outside forces. And so there are all these different. You don't see much of this in this. In this series, but there are all these different factions. But the Sisterhood have these powers, one of which is to hack their own biology. And it's kind of, you know, pseudoscientific basis and stuff that we're learning about now is that your Emotions are, in fact, governed by your gut, by your biology, and they have this power to go inside their DNA, change their molecular setup in some way, and access their ancestors, their female ancestors, inside their DNA. To me, I think it's like if you saw a toddler standing at the top of the stairs or about to run into the road, the voice that you know will stop them in their tracks. That's what it is. It's utter, utter command, utter assurance inside their head and make them stop. Obviously, I kind of work with a voice coach a bit to sort of find a resonance in my own voice, but also then it's amplified in the studio and they mess around with it and do all sorts of things. And we spent quite a fun afternoon kind of doing.
- [49:15]
Amidal Akbar
Is that commanding a toddler idea? Is that the mental place you have to go to to perform the voice?
- [49:23]
Unknown Speaker
I think it's more just being very resonantly planted in your body and using sound like a weapon, like a, you know, if I was a laser beam of sound, that's what I am very.
- [49:38]
Amidal Akbar
Much in line with. Herbert.
- [49:40]
Greta Johnson
Well, before we let you go, I wonder if there's anything else about your character that viewers may not know yet that's not particularly spoilery, but maybe an insight that you can bring to. To Valya as we move forward.
- [49:54]
Unknown Speaker
I think she is very rattled by the end of episode one. Well, obviously, I mean, it's a devastating. Kasha is one of the founding. You know, there were five of them, and they did it together kind of thing, and is one of her oldest associates and friends. And it's devastating that Kasha has died. But it's also. This is the reckoning, you know, this is the reckoning that Mother Raquela said you will be the one to see it. And here it is. She sees it. There are many layers to this that we have not yet begun to fathom.
- [50:35]
Amidal Akbar
Mm. Emily, thank you so much for joining us and congratulations on award. Wonderful premiere. I genuinely can't stop thinking about it, and I'm excited to see more.
- [50:46]
Allison Schapker
Okay, great.
- [50:48]
Greta Johnson
Thank you.
- [50:49]
Unknown Speaker
Thanks, guys.
- [50:57]
Amidal Akbar
That's all for this week. We'll be back next Sunday night with more special guests to break down the second episode of Dune Prophecy, which you can watch on HBO or stream exclusively on max.
- [51:07]
Greta Johnson
Be sure to subscribe to the podcast so you do not miss an episode. And if you like what you are hearing, don't forget to leave a rating and review on your podcast player of choice. You can also find us on the Dune Prophecy.
- [51:19]
Amidal Akbar
Social media handles the official Dune Prophecy podcast is produced by HBO in collaboration with Pineapple Street Studios. I'm Amidal Akbar. Follow me on Social at RadBrowndads.
- [51:29]
Greta Johnson
And I'm Greta Johnson. You can follow me. GretaMjohnsen Our executive producers for Pineapple Pineapple street are Gabrielle Lewis, J. Ann Barry and Bari Finkel. Our lead engineer for the show is Hannes Brown. Pineapple's head of sound and engineering is Raj Makhija. Pineapple's senior audio engineers are Marina Pais and Pedro Alvira. This episode is mixed by Hannis Brown.
- [51:50]
Amidal Akbar
Our editor is Darby Maloney and our producers are Ben Goldberg and Melissa Akiko Slaughter.
- [51:55]
Greta Johnson
Special thanks to Becky Rowe, Allison Cohen and Erin Kelly from the Max podcast team.
- [51:59]
Jordan Goldberg
Thanks.
- [52:00]
Amidal Akbar
Thanks for listening. See you next week.
- [52:02]
Jordan Goldberg
Humility is the foundation of our virtues.
- [52:06]
Greta Johnson
Humility is the foundation of our virtues.
- [52:09]
Unknown Speaker
The mind of man is holy.
- [52:12]
Greta Johnson
The mind of man is holy.
- [52:14]
Jordan Goldberg
Thou shall not disfigure the soul.
- [52:17]
Greta Johnson
Thou shalt not disfigure the soul.