Ep.2: Two Wolves (Actors Mark Strong and Jodhi May, Director/EP John Cameron, Writer/Co-EP Kor Adana, and Writer/Supervising Producer Elizabeth Padden)

Summary

The Official Dune: Prophecy Podcast - Episode 2: "Two Wolves" Summary

Release Date: November 25, 2024

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Introduction

In the second episode of The Official Dune: Prophecy Podcast, hosts Ahmed Ali Akbar and Greta Johnson delve deep into "Two Wolves," the latest episode of HBO's Dune: Prophecy. This episode features insightful discussions with special guests including director and executive producer John Cameron, writer and supervising producer Elizabeth Padden, writer and co-executive producer Cor Adanna, and actors Mark Strong and Jodhi May, who portray Emperor Haviko and Empress Natalia Corrino of the Imperium.

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Episode Recap: "Two Wolves"

The hosts begin with a concise recap of the episode's primary events. The story picks up from the cliffhanger in the previous episode, focusing on the mysterious death of Kasha and the subsequent actions of the Sisterhood.

• Key Plot Points:
  • Valya leaves for Salusa Secundus to investigate Kasha's death.
  • Tula remains to oversee the school and recruits Lila, a young acolyte with a significant lineage connected to Raquela.
  • The Sisterhood subjects Lila to the perilous Agony, a process aimed at reconnecting with ancestral memories to uncover Raquela's prophecy. This results in Lila falling into a comatose state.
  • On Salusa Secundus, Valya confronts Desmond Hart, believing him responsible for Kasha's demise. However, Desmond has ingratiated himself within House Corrino, leading to Valya's expulsion from the palace and Desmond's solidification alongside the Emperor.

Notable Quotes:

• Ahmad Ali Akbar reflections: “[...] descriptors like, 'hard choices are never easy' ([00:19]).”

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Character Motivations and Layers

The episode explores the intricate motivations driving each character, revealing layers of secrets and shifting alliances.

• John Cameron emphasizes the duality in character motivations: “I love what you said about, like, dueling motivations” ([02:52]).
• Greta Johnson appreciates the complexity: “There are so many secrets happening. I loved our communing with the Ancestors” ([02:37]).

Key Insights:

• Tula grapples with her responsibilities within the Sisterhood, balancing emotional attachments with the overarching mission.
• Valya exhibits a relentless pursuit of truth and control, often putting the Sisterhood's survival above personal connections.

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Symbolism and Thematic Elements

The discussion delves into the symbolic representation of power dynamics and politics within the Dune universe.

• Ahmad Ali Akbar draws parallels between shield combat and political maneuvering: “Shield combat in this show and in the world of Dune is very much a metaphor for politics” ([02:56]).
• Cor Adanna expands on the theme of manipulation and truth within the Sisterhood: “Any time you tell a lie in the sisterhood, that is a very tricky proposition because every one of them is being trained to learn the truth” ([12:46]).

Themes Explored:

• Power and Corruption: The intoxicating nature of power and its potential to corrupt, as seen in Emperor Haviko's character arc.
• Family and Sacrifice: The strained relationships and sacrifices made by characters like Tula and Valya highlight the personal costs of political and spiritual duties.
• Truth vs. Manipulation: The Sisterhood's ability to discern truth challenges the characters' integrity and intentions, especially in confrontations like Valya vs. Desmond.

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In-Depth Discussions with Guests

Symbolism of "Two Wolves"

The episode's title, "Two Wolves," symbolizes the internal and external conflicts faced by key characters.

• Cor Adanna explains: “The two wolves are Valya and Tula. [...] one comes at this from a very emotional place, but at the end of the day, how different are they?” ([07:51]).

The Agony: A Journey into Ancestor Memories

A significant portion of the episode focuses on the Agony, a transformative and terrifying process for young acolytes.

• John Cameron describes the Agony as a horror sequence: “The idea always was to do a horror sequence based on the Rosak poison and its effect on the body and mind” ([16:35]).
• Elizabeth Padden lauds the execution: “The sound design is incredible in that whole sequence. The use of the heartbeat is so effective” ([17:21]).

Key Points:

• The Agony is a perilous test with low survival rates, embodying the Sisterhood's commitment to self-control and transformation.
• Lila's experience in the Agony serves as a pivotal moment, revealing her vulnerability and the high stakes of her involvement with the prophecy.

Emperor and Empress Dynamics

Actors Mark Strong and Jodhi May discuss their portrayal of the Emperor and Empress, highlighting the fragile nature of their power and their complex relationship.

• Mark Strong reflects on Emperor Haviko's insecurity: “He's not a traditional emperor in the sense that he's, you know, he's completely in control” ([35:05]).
• Jodhi May emphasizes Natalia's political acumen: “She's much more willing to sort of throw caution to the wind and, you know, she's a bit more like a politician” ([35:56]).

Character Dynamics:

• Emperor Haviko struggles with inherited power, leading to paranoia and a susceptibility to manipulation.
• Empress Natalia exhibits strategic prowess, leveraging situations like Desmond Hart's emergence to maintain stability and control within the Imperium.

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Production Insights

The guests provide behind-the-scenes perspectives on creating the intense and multifaceted scenes within the episode.

• John Cameron discusses the directorial approach to the Agony: “We went handheld and did lots of other kind of, you know, kinetic camera movement to give the viewer the impression of the fear and the panic that Lila is enduring” ([17:44]).
• Elizabeth Padden highlights the collaborative efforts in sound and visuals: “The shot that comes out on the eye, too. I adore where you see them in her” ([17:51]).

Technical Highlights:

• Utilizing unique camera techniques and sound design to evoke horror and emotional turmoil during the Agony.
• Emphasis on character expressions and subtle interactions to convey deeper psychological and political undercurrents.

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Themes of Truth and Deception

A significant discussion revolves around the Sisterhood's ability to discern truth, juxtaposed with characters like Desmond Hart who challenge their perceptions.

• Ahmad Ali Akbar poses a critical question: “Does she know whether he's lying or not?” ([12:59]).
• Cor Adanna explains the complexity: “Is she telling the truth in a way that is manipulative, or is she telling a lie as the best liar in the world?” ([12:59]).

Impact on Plot:

• The confrontation between Valya and Desmond Hart underscores the tension between perceived truth and actual truth, highlighting vulnerabilities within the Sisterhood.
• Desmond's ability to withstand Valya's use of the Voice signifies a turning point, challenging the established power dynamics.

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Character Backstories and Motivations

Exploring deeper into the characters' histories enhances the understanding of their present actions and relationships.

• Lila's lineage and connection to Raquela serve as a catalyst for her involvement in the Agony and the unfolding prophecy.
• Valya and Tula share a complex mother-daughter-like relationship, shaped by their roles within the Sisterhood and personal sacrifices.

Key Relationships:

• Valya and Tula: Their bond is tested by differing ideologies and the high-stakes decisions they face.
• Mark Strong's Constantine: Revealed as a sacrificial figure willing to protect his sister, adding layers to his seemingly hedonistic persona.

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Moral Ambiguities and Ethical Dilemmas

The episode presents multiple ethical questions, particularly surrounding the Sisterhood's methods and the characters' personal choices.

• Cor Adanna muses on the moral complexities: “Is she the one who will cry over the lamb?” ([14:43]).
• Mark Strong discusses the Emperor's internal conflict regarding power and guilt: “Is he ashamed of that because of the trouble that he thinks he might get in” ([47:41]).

Ethical Themes:

• The balance between individual agency and collective responsibility within the Sisterhood.
• The corrupting influence of power as characters navigate personal desires versus political necessities.

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Conclusion and Future Expectations

As the episode concludes, the hosts and guests express anticipation for future developments, highlighting the intricate web of alliances and conflicts that promise to evolve in upcoming episodes.

• Greta Johnson remarks on the ongoing transformations: “I have a feeling many things are going to change over the course of the next several episodes with both of your characters” ([36:19]).
• The guests anticipate further exploration of power dynamics, character growth, and the expanding lore of the Dune universe.

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Final Thoughts

Episode 2 of The Official Dune: Prophecy Podcast provides a comprehensive breakdown of "Two Wolves," offering fans a deeper understanding of the series' complex characters, thematic depth, and intricate plotlines. Through engaging discussions with the creative team and cast, listeners gain exclusive insights into the making of the show and the philosophical underpinnings that drive its narrative forward.

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Notable Quotes with Timestamps:

• Tula: “You don't believe I'm up to the task? Emotions cloud judgment, Tula. Hard choices will have to be made…” ([00:06])
• Ahmad Ali Akbar: “What have I ever shied away from? Hard choices.” ([00:19])
• Greta Johnson: “The real power is whoever controls the desert planet.” ([01:10])
• Cor Adanna: “Any time you tell a lie in the sisterhood, that is a very tricky proposition…” ([12:46])
• John Cameron: “It would be a lie if I promised you that you would see your mother.” ([10:35])
• Mark Strong: “I would humble those who try to take from you or sway you with corrupt counsel?” ([44:34])
• Tula: “Of power and spice.” ([50:15])

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This summary encapsulates the key discussions and insights from Episode 2: "Two Wolves" of The Official Dune: Prophecy Podcast. For a more immersive experience, listeners are encouraged to tune into the podcast and watch the series on Max.

Transcript

[Tula]

You don't believe I'm up to the task? Emotions cloud judgment, Tula. Hard choices will have to be made. There is one that will give us the greatest chance of success.

[Ahmad Ali Akbar]

What have I ever shied away from? Hard choices.

[Greta Johnson]

Welcome to the official Dune Prophecy podcast. I am Greta Johnson.

[Ahmad Ali Akbar]

And I'm Ahmad Ali Akbar. Today we're digging into the second episode.

[Greta Johnson]

Of Dune Prophecy, and as always, we have very special guests to break it down with us. First up, the episode's director, John Cameron, and writer Elizabeth Padden, and writer and co executive producer, Cor Adanna.

[Ahmad Ali Akbar]

Then later, we're joined by Mark Strong and Jody May, who play Haviko and Natalia Corrino, the emperor and empress of the Imperium.

[Greta Johnson]

So be warned, there are spoilers ahead for the second episode of Dune Prophecy, which means you should probably go watch that first and then come back to us.

[Tula]

The palace is meaningless.

[Greta Johnson]

The real power is whoever controls the desert planet.

[Tula]

The great houses, the Spacing Guild, the Sisterhood, they all know that what matters is those beautiful little flecks of orange dyes.

[Greta Johnson]

First things first, let's get a quick recap of this second episode, which is titled Two Wolves. Ahmed, you want to start us off?

[Ahmad Ali Akbar]

Sure. So, of course we ended on that cliffhanger. Kasha's mysterious death. The sisterhood springs into action. Valya leaves for Salusa Secundus to get to the bottom of things, while Tula stays back to oversee the school.

[Greta Johnson]

Yes, we learn a lot about Tula in this episode. I think she decides to recruit Lila, who's one of the young recruits. And also we find out is Raquela's great, great, grand. The idea is that they want to put her into this dangerous process, which is called the agony, in hopes of reconnecting with Raquela to learn more about Raquela's prophecy. And they do get some information, but not without a price. Lila is stuck in a comatose state.

[Ahmad Ali Akbar]

Valya, meanwhile, on Salusa Secundus, confronts Desmond Hart, who she believes is behind Kosh's death. But Desmond has been working his way into the inner sanctum of House Corrino. And by the end of the episode, Valya has been kicked out of the palace and Desmond stands by the Emperor's side. So, Greta, what did you think of the second episode?

[Greta Johnson]

I love how many different layers of motivations there seem to be for all these different characters. I think there are so many secrets happening. I loved our communing with the Ancestors. I just feel like there are so many different moving pieces, and I'm really excited to see where they all go.

[John Cameron]

Yeah.

[Ahmad Ali Akbar]

I love what you said about, like, dueling motivations.

[Greta Johnson]

Yeah.

[Ahmad Ali Akbar]

Somehow I picked up something that maybe I never really thought about a lot, which is the shield combat in this show and in the world of Dune is very much a metaphor for politics. You know, they don't say it super explicitly, but in order to pierce the shield, you need to have two different attacks. You see that in the show with a blue and a red. One is usually speaking. You could think of it as, like, one is kind of aggressive and one is kind of sneaky and weak. But you cannot actually pierce somebody with one of those daggers unless you have both mentally kind of lowered their defenses and physically in multiple ways. So it's like a three prong way of getting somebody to lose a duel. And if you think about everybody in this world right now, they're doing a little bit of both. Right. There's the aggressive attacks. Like, we see how Desmond is expressing power. You see the scars on somebody's body when Desmond has killed you, whereas the voice and the kind of command to kill yourself. It's a little bit more in the darkness. It's a little bit. You know, it's a mystery why it's happened. Nobody really knows, you know, so there's the two kind of ways power manifests itself. And of course, some of it may feel like it's a little bit about matriarchal power versus patriarchal power.

[Greta Johnson]

I like that a lot. Yeah, I think, too. I mean, even within the sisterhood, so much happened in this episode, and I think even. Especially within the literal sisterhood. Right. Of Valya and Tula. Very intriguing to see what happens from there.

[Ahmad Ali Akbar]

I also want to talk about the meeting of two characters who had not yet met Valya, Harkonnen and Desmond.

[Greta Johnson]

I think that was one of my favorite things about this episode, actually, because I think a lot of other shows may that might have been, like, one of those payoffs that you had to really wait a bunch of episodes to actually get to these two seemingly opposing and dynamic characters actually confronting each other, but the fact that we just got right to it and that Desmond's like, yeah, I killed him. So what was so interesting, especially for.

[Ahmad Ali Akbar]

Somebody who can tell truth from lies, you know, his power is he's so truthful, you know, in his own odd, unhinged way.

[Greta Johnson]

I also wanted to ask you about kind of that last moment when Valya tries to use the Voice on him. Do you think he's immune to it, or do you think she just wasn't bringing it.

[Ahmad Ali Akbar]

It's a good question and I don't know, I don't want to say yet. I don't actually read it very much as the battle of the ideas. Right.

[Greta Johnson]

Yes.

[Ahmad Ali Akbar]

You know, it's not an easy win for either side.

[Greta Johnson]

Interesting. Well, obviously there's a lot more to unpack. Should we go beyond the veil?

[Elizabeth Padden]

Yes.

[Greta Johnson]

Today we get to break down the episode with director John Cameron, writer Elizabeth Padden, and writer and co executive producer Cor Adonna. Let's get into it.

[Ahmad Ali Akbar]

We have a whole panel here. Welcome.

[Cor Adonna]

Thanks for having us.

[Greta Johnson]

So to get started, I would love to have each of you introduce your roles on the show and then maybe just say a little bit about your relationship to Dune before you started working on this show. John, should we start with you?

[John Cameron]

Sure. I directed the episode, the second episode. I'm also an executive producer on the show. And my journey with Dune started as so many people does, when I was about 16, I suppose, when I read the first novel and was kind of blown away by Herbert's masterwork and huge fan of the movies, all the movies, lynch and Villeneuve. And when I heard about this show, I was overjoyed to be able to be part of it.

[Greta Johnson]

That's awesome.

[Cor Adonna]

I'm Elizabeth Padden. I am a writer and supervising producer on Dune. I wrote on episode two and episode six. And yeah, my first Dune exposure was when I was probably nine years old watching the Lynch Dune in my friend's basement, not understanding half of what was going on. But we quoted it for the rest of our lives. And then my dad gave me Dune, the book when I was like 13 or 14 and, you know, I loved it, but I hadn't really read Beyond. Like I hadn't, hadn't gone into the other Frank Herbert novels or the Brian Herbert novels. So, like, coming onto this show was such a fun, like, cram everything into your head. Learn all of Dune challenge.

[Elizabeth Padden]

My name is Cor Adonna. I am a writer and co executive producer on the show. And I think I was first exposed when I was 13 or 14 as well. I read the book, I fell in love. I remember getting a poster of the Litany Against Fear and putting it in my bedroom and it stayed there for years. And like the rest of you, when I heard about, I was just over the moon.

[Ahmad Ali Akbar]

Very cool. Let's get into this show, this episode two, where things are really heating up. And the episode title here is Two Wolves. Why call it Two Wolves? Who are the two wolves in this.

[Cor Adonna]

Episode the two wolves are Valya and Tula. And the sort of idea behind it is the quote we were looking at is, what's worse, the wolf who cries before it eats the lamb or the wolf that doesn't, and it doesn't matter to the lamb, the lamb still gets eaten. And that is our Tula and our Valya. You know, one comes at this from a very emotional place, but at the end of the day, how different are they?

[Ahmad Ali Akbar]

Love that it's there unspoken too. I was just thinking about the way she was crying over Lila's body and I said, well, she's still the person who put her in that situation. You know, it's so different.

[Greta Johnson]

So, yeah, speaking of Lila, the themes of family and sacrifice are all over this episode. And Valya and Tula do have very differing opinions about what should be happening at this point. Valya wants her to go through a process called the agony in order to save the sisterhood. Tula is a lot more hesitant and she yells at Valya that she raised Lila. Can we get a little bit of that backstory, whatever you're able to share?

[Cor Adonna]

Yeah. There are young women who are born into this sisterhood who come from some of the sisters and are sort of given into this life and they are raised without knowing who their parents are, which is to promote equality through the sisterhood and, like, get rid of nepotism. And so Lila grows up with a whole sisterhood of women raising her. But like most children, she identifies hard with somebody and that person is Tula. And Tula really kind of took on this mothering role and raised her. And they both say, you know, I kind of pretended you were my daughter. I pretended you were my mother. So it's very much like, we don't see it as much, but like, you gotta imagine a like 5 year old kid is running through and they, you know, they know where the kitchens are and they know, like, this is a home for this young girl and Tula was very much the mother figure for her.

[Mark Strong]

You know something?

[Tula]

All these years that I've grown up.

[Mark Strong]

Here at the sisterhood, I used to pretend you were my mother.

[Tula]

Well, I'll tell you a secret. So did I. Why do you think I gave you my most precious keepsake? I wish you could have known her. You.

[Mark Strong]

You knew my mother?

[Greta Johnson]

Yes.

[Ahmad Ali Akbar]

Where is she now?

[Tula]

She died.

[Greta Johnson]

I'm sorry.

[Tula]

She died giving birth.

[Mark Strong]

Then she would be there in my other memory.

[Tula]

You can't tame the other memory. You can't predict what voices will come when you unlock it. It would be a lie if I promised you that you would see your mother. But she could be. She could be. But if you're not ready, we can.

[Elizabeth Padden]

Find other options for Lila. I imagine it's a breath of fresh air to have someone as kind and as nurturing as Tula watching over her in this somewhat kind of ruthless environment like the Sisterhood. And I'm sure that Tula sees a lot of Raquela's strength in Lila. And it's also interesting to me that Valya probably sees much of Dorotea's strength in Lila as well, which is why seems like Valya isn't all that interested in Tula's favorite acolyte, you know, because of the animosity that we've already established between Valya and Dorotea in the pilot. Another interesting aspect of this relationship that's also related to the two wolves of it all is I believe that Tula's being honest with Lila when she reveals the truth about her lineage and about what, you know, the threat that the Reckoning poses to the sisterhood. But there is this open question about whether Tula was lying to Lila about her birth mother dying in childbirth, and whether or not she's accessible through the unlocking of other memory, the ancestral memory. So was that a manipulation? Was that the truth? Or later in this episode, in that horrific sequence, was Dorotea lying about it when she tells Lila, you know, is that what they told you to get you to come? So I don't know. Interesting question to mull over.

[Ahmad Ali Akbar]

I actually wanted to ask a question, Cora, about that, which is when I watched it the second time, that scene where Tula talks about Lila's mother dying in childbirth. You know, when you talk in Dune, in the books, we have like, the description of people going into truth sensing mode. You know, can she tell whether she's lying or not there? Do they use it on each other? Like, that was one of my questions. Does she know whether that's a lie or not? Or is Tula able to hide her intentions? Like, there's a little bit of, you know, interesting questions about their relationship to each other and how they use tooth seeing on each other.

[John Cameron]

It's interesting to me, but I don't. My impression is that Lila does not have that. Does not have that skillset yet. She's so young. She's not a truthsayer. She hasn't been trained sufficiently to be able to do that.

[Cor Adonna]

They are all learning it. So it's a trick. Any time you tell a lie in the sisterhood, that is a very tricky proposition because every one of them is being trained to learn the truth. And that means that some of them are the best liars in the universe. So when we look at Tula having that moment with Lila, you can ask yourself, is she telling the truth in a way that is manipulative, or is she telling a lie as the best liar in the world? And Lila, who is learning this, you know, is she. Is she trying to divine the truth, or is she hearing what she wants to hear? Because this girl really wants to know her lineage and wants to know her mother, and this is an opportunity being presented to her. So it's. Every level of it is for D.

[John Cameron]

Chess, for both of them, I think it's completely telling that Lila does not in any way meet her birth mother. In the agony. For me, at least for sure, she meets her great grandmother and her grandmother, but not her mother.

[Greta Johnson]

Yeah. The idea of members of the sisterhood being able to lie is something that really struck me in this episode, too, because you see it with Valya also, right. It's like, oh, yeah, no. If these are, like, the arbiters of truth, then of course, the potential for corruption there is pretty huge and really interesting. But I think that goes back to the Lila and Tula story, too, where Tula's very insistent with Lila that she wants Lila to be able to make her own choice about whether or not she's gonna go into the agony. But, like, I don't know, how much agency does she really have in this situation if she's not getting all the information she needs and if she's being told that this is a sacrifice that's worth being made for the entire sisterhood.

[Cor Adonna]

Yeah. Did she ultimately make her own choice, I guess is the question.

[Greta Johnson]

Yes.

[John Cameron]

Well, Jen says it briefly, you know, it's the sisterhood, not the sisters. So one can only imagine that Tula is all about the sisterhood at the end of the day, no matter her feelings for Lila, which means she's the.

[Greta Johnson]

One who will cry over the lamb, Right.

[Cor Adonna]

Well, and there's the moment with Tula and Sister Avila where Tula is being very insistent. I want her to make her own choice. And Avila goes, this is not just about the life of one girl. This is about millions of lives. This is about lives across, you know, planets. This is about our sisterhood. And so, you know, how much is it really her decision to make?

[Elizabeth Padden]

It also is connected back to something you said earlier, Beth, about Lila growing up in this environment where it's Very much about the collective. It is sisterhood above all. And it's in that beautiful scene with Emmeline when Emmaline is talking about her family, her lineage, and how she comes from a line of martyrs and her thoughts of martyrdom and, like, giving yourself up and sacrificed yourself for something greater. I think that resonates with Lila. So I think, like, she wants to believe that she is doing a service that could potentially save the sisterhood, because it's all she's ever known and she does care deeply about it. I believe that, you know.

[Ahmad Ali Akbar]

Yeah. I wanted to actually, though, ask about the agony scenes, which we talked about how terrifying they were and filming those. It was a real shock, just visually, just the way it was depicted. Like, real tonal shift into what, to me, really felt like horror by the end of it. Can you walk us through that? Like, what is happening in the agony? What were you hoping to depict? How did you film it? I have a lot of questions about how that was accomplished. I thought it was a really amazing sequence.

[John Cameron]

The idea always was to do a horror sequence based on the Rosak poison and its effect on the body and mind of the person taking it. And so we approached it that way as this young girl waking up into her other memory. And the first time that happens, we discussed it always being a shock, an assault in a certain way, and horrific, as her line of female ancestors are awakening as well. And there was a line, I think, in the script, at some point they will awaken ravenous and hungry because they've been sleeping for however long. And so that the idea was like, the awakening of these. Of the ancient mothers would be terrifying.

[Elizabeth Padden]

John, I love the way you capture that whole sequence and having the ancestors appear in their ghost, like burial robes, clawing at Lila desperately trying to take over. Horrifying. But also the sound design is incredible in that whole sequence. The use of the heartbeat is so effective. And the Snorri cam on Lila is, like, really unnerving. It's just. It's awesome.

[Cor Adonna]

The shot that comes out on the eye, too. I adore where you see them in her. Like, mm, excellent.

[John Cameron]

It's basically, you know, they're overwhelming her. And also, just in terms of a visual approach, the episode's fairly quiet. Right. You know, I mean, after the flash, maybe of one two's fairly quiet, they're dealing with the aftermath of the two deaths, Kasha and Pruitt. The idea always was to contrast that with the unbridled ferocity and terror of the agony. So at that point, we went handheld and did lots of other kind of, you know, kinetic camera movement to give the viewer the impression of the fear and the panic that Lila is enduring.

[Elizabeth Padden]

And that ravenous hunger. That quality that you're talking about, John. I remember talking about that a lot in the writer's room.

[Cor Adonna]

Yeah, I was hoping you'd bring that up, Cora, because that was like the drum you beat, and I loved it. We were both really interested in getting horror into this show in one way or another, because it's so fun. But, like, this was very much like Korra's moment.

[Ahmad Ali Akbar]

I want to say, as a viewer, like, having known about the agony, having known about all these visions, somehow I was still. I can't believe I let myself believe Lila doesn't know her history. It'll be nice for her to connect with her ancestors. So I was like, you know, I was just like, I don't know what. Like, it's just effective TV in the sense that, like, there was a part of me that hoped, like, really hoped that she would get some knowledge of self.

[John Cameron]

Gonna meet her mom.

[Ahmad Ali Akbar]

But I should've known.

[Greta Johnson]

Well, I mean, she does, arguably, right?

[John Cameron]

Yeah.

[Greta Johnson]

It's just. At what cost?

[Ahmad Ali Akbar]

It's very, very painful. But we have to give it up for the actor who plays Lila, Chloe Lee. Oh, my gosh, she's incredible. Incredible. The way she pivoted in those scenes when she's being kind of channeled by Dorothea. Talk about bringing her into that mental space. Cause it was really. She turns on a dime there.

[John Cameron]

She was. She was 17 when we shot, and she's a pure natural. So, I mean, the directing side of it is. Was easy in a certain way, because she's. She's just an open instrument. So you could. We would have a brief conversation, and boom, there it would be. So she's just. She's. She's just an amazing actor, and she understood the character so well on kind of a cellular level that it was just. It was just fun to work with her. She's really great.

[Greta Johnson]

So let's talk more about the agony. I love the idea of bringing horror into. I mean, it's called the Agony, after all. Like, why not? It seems like this is a process that every acolyte has to go through to eventually become a Reverend Mother. Let's actually listen to a clip about this, and then we'll talk some more about it.

[Tula]

Crisis. Survival. Advancement. Our founder, Mother Raquela, was poisoned. To survive, she harnessed her body's own chemistry, transmuting the toxins on a cellular level. In doing so she awakened something deeper. The voices of her mother, her mother's mother, back and back, until all of the women who had come before her opened their minds to her and spoke.

[Cor Adonna]

The original version of the Rosak poison is what she transmuted. And it's a poison with no antidote. So the only way to survive it is to transform your own body. And that's very much what the Sisterhood is about, is that control over the self, over the body, on a minuscule cellular, like, micro level.

[Greta Johnson]

And that is what we're seeing in the Agony, too. There is no antidote to that, as.

[Cor Adonna]

There is no antidote.

[Tula]

She says, yeah.

[Cor Adonna]

And it's the version of the poison they're now is based on the poison that Raquela took. But it has, over time, they refine it, they work on it, because the goal is for these women to survive. The goal is not to kill them. Sure. But you'll see as we go forward, the survival rate is not high. And so when they ask Lila to do this, she really isn't ready. And she wouldn't be ready for many, many years.

[Ahmad Ali Akbar]

People in the Sisterhood, who has survived and done the agony in that group of people that we see on screen, how many people that we're seeing have seen that?

[Cor Adonna]

Anyone who's called Reverend Mother has survived, Anyone who's called Sister has not gone through the agony. So, for instance, Tool is a Reverend Mother. Sister Avila, who's an older woman, has never gone through the agony. And then there's a little bit of, like, clothing differentiation that you can kind of look for. But when they're older, they're all in black. Like, when you're kind of out of training, they're all in black, so it's harder to tell.

[John Cameron]

Novices, white acolytes, gray sisters, black. That's the color scheme.

[Cor Adonna]

Right. It's still rare to survive this poison. So, like, as you're looking through, like, mostly you are seeing Sisters, like, if it's in the background or whatnot.

[Ahmad Ali Akbar]

Got it. So we spent a lot of time on the Agony. There's so much packed in this episode. You know, we can go deep on every single plot line. But, you know, I want to talk a little bit about the kids of the Empire because we get a little bit deeper into Ines and Constantine. We learned about their kidnapping this episode, this idea that there was this hidden kidnapping story that the Imperium wrapped up. What can you tell us about that backstory? How long was she kidnapped for? And also Constantine, Interesting to me that Constantine was there as well. I want to learn more about this guy.

[Greta Johnson]

Yeah.

[Cor Adonna]

So when Nez was young, around maybe 8 years old, similar to Pruitt's age, there was a rebellion. And when you do not have firepower, you look for other ways. And so they planned an infiltration. They got into the palace. Their plan was to kidnap the princess and use her as a bargaining chip. And Constantine, who's like a year or two older than Nez, was there and tried to stop them as, like, you know, a 10 year old or an 11 year old, which he couldn't do. And so when they took her, he said, take me too. Don't let her be alone. That's like the sacrifice of her brother. And he's, you know, he's so funny because we see him having sex and doing drugs and playing the balisette. But, like, the core of him is that he was a child who was willing to do that to be with his sister and protect his sister.

[Elizabeth Padden]

I think in 101, even when Kasha is speaking to Nez, I think there's a reference to it lasting for a couple of years.

[Cor Adonna]

Yeah. So, I mean, this was not a short period of their lives they were held, and they really had to rely on. On each other. And it caused a lot of fracturing in the family dynamic. But it's an interesting thing. Eventually they are found. They are rescued. They are rescued by the sisterhood, and Kasha specifically finds them. And that's a huge boon for the sisterhood to have been the ones to find them.

[Elizabeth Padden]

When Kasha and the other sisters returned Nez to the Corrino family, to what Beth is saying, things were never quite the same. Like that family dynamic did indeed fracture. And more specifically, the relationship between Nez and her mother fractured in ways that I don't believe were. I believe they were irreconcilable. And it pushed Nez to look to Kasha as more of a surrogate mother from that moment forward. It's also why that goodbye scene between Kasha And Nez in 101 is so heartbreaking and why she grieves the. You know, how she grieves. Kasha's death in this episode is also so heartbreaking because, you know, ever since that kidnapping sequence, she looked to Kasha as a mother figure.

[Ahmad Ali Akbar]

We heard about the rebellion in episode one. We had a suspicion that perhaps it was the sisterhood doing it. And then we have reveals on reveals here about the many intersecting plot lines that here in Atreides, the swordmaster is part of the rebellion. And the rebellion is something that Valya both wants but also is willing to tamp down on. You know, it was so satisfying to see those things link up so much. How did you, you know, keep those threads going? And especially, like, I want to talk about the Atreides of it all. Putting the Atreides in the middle of it, you know, was like, really surprising to me to see him part of the rebellion.

[Cor Adonna]

I mean, you gotta have an Atreides getting into some shit, or is it even a dune? Like, what are we doing? Yeah, yeah. But, yeah, when you introduce Kieran in episode one and he's just there as the swordmaster, you have to know, like, there's something else going on there. And so this whole reveal that he's part of this rebellion and he has his own reasons as to why he's part of that. And the sort of almost tragedy of it is like, the sincere belief he has and the sincere belief of the other people. And meanwhile, this is all, you know, part of a sisterhood, plans within plans, wheels within wheels sort of thing. And I think it all comes back to something Nez says, which is, we're all just pieces on the board. She has a very clear eye of that for herself, for her brother. But it's true of everybody. The question is, who is playing? You know, everybody is a piece, but who are the people moving the pieces? And I think that's definitely the goal of the sisterhood, is to be the player, not the piece.

[Elizabeth Padden]

There's also just connecting this back to the agony sequence as well. There's a great line in that. In that scene where we reveal that Mikaela's actually a sister. There's a great line of dialogue that references how the shadows hold power, which speaks to exactly what you're talking about. These plans within plans.

[Greta Johnson]

That's really cool.

[Ahmad Ali Akbar]

Let's move forward to the conflict that's really coming to the forefront between Valya and Desmond Hart. Valya confronts Desmond Hart, thinking he could bring the reckoning. Let's listen to some of that scene.

[Tula]

Desmond Heart. Who are you really?

[Mark Strong]

Nothing but a soldier of the Imperior.

[Tula]

Oh, come now. You're more than that.

[Mark Strong]

I wouldn't dare lie to you, Mother Superior.

[Tula]

Where are you from?

[Mark Strong]

Belos.

[Tula]

Harsh world for a child. What brought you to the palace?

[Mark Strong]

Faith.

[Tula]

I would advise against playing games with me.

[Cor Adonna]

I will win.

[Mark Strong]

I have nothing to hide.

[Elizabeth Padden]

Can you and your sister say the same?

[Tula]

I'm not the one in the cell. Not yet.

[Ahmad Ali Akbar]

I love that confrontation so much. Cause he's such a counterpoint to her. And it's difficult to understand how to parse their conversation. Like, how much do Valya's abilities to read truth work when she's confronting someone like Desmond who seems to be telling the truth, or at least believes that they're telling the truth?

[Cor Adonna]

I mean, that's the question, right? If you believe that it's true, can someone else tell if you're lying? Like, I think that is Desmond to his core. Every word he says is the truth as he believes it. So if the Sisterhood's power is to detect lies, what power do they have over him?

[John Cameron]

She says it in the scene. You know, he's speaking truth as he sees it. So she's not sure if what he believes is true either. You know, the truth saying can only go so far.

[Elizabeth Padden]

As you say, it's so satisfying to see a character like Valya, who's so powerful, and to see her kind of be bested in this way. Like, not only is Desmond telling the truth, but he has this mystique, he has charisma, and he has this philosophy that has already won over Natalia and is about to win over Havoco in this moment. And then at the end of that scene, the Emperor's decision kind of defangs Valya even more, and it causes her to resort to this other contingency plan in an attempt to kind of regain influence and control over the Emperor. And that's, you know, going to Mikaela and trying to get the rebel the names of the rebels that she can turn in. And when that doesn't work, when she comes face to face with Desmond at the end of the episode, she desperately resorts to another great power that's always worked for her, which is the Voice. And it's interesting that, like, everything she's trying isn't working, so she doubles down and she resorts to a more desperate attempt. And this man, Desmond, who seems to be gifted with this great power from, you know, Shai Hulud, this man who can burn his enemies from the inside out, is also. Not only is he telling the truth and besting her at every step in this episode, but at the end, he's able to actually resist Valya's use of the voice as well, which is another fascinating and devastating blow to Valya.

[Cor Adonna]

The kind of show this is and the kind of power that the Sisterhood wields is a power of politics and words and whatnot. And this is very much Valya is playing her games and losing and losing for the first time in a long time. And maybe my Favorite line in the episode is when she uses the voice on Desmond, and he says, your greatest fear is that people will hear you. They just won't care. And I think that is an incredibly. Like, he mentions once or twice, the ability to see things. You know, I see the blood in your steps. I saw the corruption in Kasha's heart. I think he sees right into her heart with that line.

[Elizabeth Padden]

Yeah.

[Ahmad Ali Akbar]

Well, we are, you know, excited to see more episodes. Thank you all for joining us.

[John Cameron]

Thank you.

[Elizabeth Padden]

Thank you guys so much. This was a blast.

[John Cameron]

Appreciate it.

[Cor Adonna]

Thanks for having us.

[Greta Johnson]

We are so happy to welcome the Emperor and Empress of the Imperium to the podcast, Mark Strong, Jody May. Thank you both so much for being here.

[Tula]

Thank you.

[Mark Strong]

Very lucky to be here.

[Greta Johnson]

So we would love to start by hearing what your own experience is with the Dune universe more broadly.

[Mark Strong]

My experience of it was that when it came up, I read the first book, but there are so many of them. I'd seen the David lynch version as well, which, you know, is endlessly fascinating. And also there's a brilliant Kodorovsky documentary about a guy who tried to make Dune at one point and was just slightly too erratic and never got it made, but had people like Mick Jagger and Salvador Dali involved.

[Tula]

Wow, that's incredible.

[Mark Strong]

Yeah, amazing. I don't know if you know that project, so there's obviously been many iterations of it. So I sort of dab. I dabbled in the Dune world, but I'm not. I'm not an expert.

[Tula]

Well, Mark sounds like he's done much more comprehensive research before we filmed than I had. I had seen the David lynch film at what was probably a completely inappropriately young age, and I'm sure without my mother's knowledge, but I just remember being completely blown away by it. It was sort of like a steampunk, surrealist Darley dream. And I loved that it was David lynch because I thought he had this real sense of the kind of dark dream world of Dune. And I just remember being completely stunned, well, first of all by Sting's costume, which I wanted age nine. And then, you know, of course, Karl McLaughlin was, you know, my complete crush forever and ever and ever. So that had this really stronghold in my imagination. And then when I saw the Denis Villeneuve films, I loved them because, for me, they brought alive that sense of mysticism and dark that David lynch tapped into. And also for me, I have to say that Charlotte Rampling just stole the show. You know, the box of pain, that scene in the Denis Villeneuve films. My God, it's just incredible. It's extraordinary how much she does with so little. And it's a masterclass in acting because she does nothing. Put your hand in the box. Feel the pain. And it's like this metaphor for life, you know, in this sort of journey through life. So, yeah, that was my experience of it.

[Ahmad Ali Akbar]

Wow. I love that. I mean, mysticism and darkness. So, like, that's such a good way to describe Dune. Your characters are really in the light. You are the rulers of the Imperium. You know, you have to represent that on screen and in the world as actors. How are you approaching playing these characters with so much power? Jodie, how do you keep Mark grounded?

[Tula]

It's really interesting, isn't it? Because so often sci fi can feel very abstract. So for me, my kind of way of trying to make it feel relatable was to sort of go into these. A bit of research into these medieval queens who were, you know, at the time of sort of the rise of Joan of Arc. They were sort of the power behind the throne, and they brought Joan of Arc to the throne. And I felt there were sort of parallels in that in terms of a young girl's journey finding her voice with Princess Yanez. So that was my kind of touchstone, I guess.

[Greta Johnson]

That's so cool. I think it's interesting, too, though, because in these first two episodes, you get a sense that these two, yes, they have a lot of power, but it's also pretty precarious.

[Mark Strong]

Yeah, he's. As an actor.

[Tula]

Yeah, I like that.

[Mark Strong]

Well, the emperor, somebody had said he's managing a fragile peace. And actually, that's what I found interesting about the character, that he's not a traditional emperor in the sense that he's, you know, he's completely in control. In fact, it's the opposite of that, which is, I think, what makes him a lot more interesting. But he's the classic example, I think, of somebody who's inherited his power. He hasn't earned it. He talks about his father in very great terms, and it's kind of. It was obvious to me, and it was wonderful to play the notion that he doesn't have that confidence or that ability, and the fact that he doesn't really have control of the world, that he. That in the way that he should. He's paranoid, he's insecure. And the relationship that he and the empress have is fleshed out. Starts to get fleshed out beautifully in two where you realize there's more going on than you think.

[Greta Johnson]

Yes, well. And it's so much fun, especially to watch the Empress Jodie and like to see the moments where she does reinforce what her husband is saying. And the moments when she says, actually, darling, you know, and she'll put her hand on his arm and say, let's. Let's see how this goes. I mean, that's like. Just watching the expressions on your face as you're playing that character is such a delight.

[Tula]

Aw, thank you. That's so kind of you. I mean, yeah, it's interesting with a character like that, you've got to be so careful. You can go in sort of, you know, being very strident and, I don't know, sort of putting all your cards on the table. And I think the trick is with a character like that is that you've got to actually be a bit of a dark horse and you've got to, you know, it's more honey than vinegar, and there's a lot you've got to sort of hold back. So, yeah, it is interesting. And I like the fact that you meet this couple at a point where they're in trouble. And I like the fact that, you know, this series isn't afraid to portray this kind of once partnership now, you know, looks like they need family therapy couple in a way that, yeah, feels really relatable and very real.

[Ahmad Ali Akbar]

I guess so in this episode, unsaid stuff is so interesting. And the relationship in particular, we get a lot of little by episode two, details like that, you know, Natalia arranged their marriage, and then here we're seeing them have very different, you know, kind of relationships to the Desmond Hart of it all.

[Mark Strong]

This is a disaster. This is an absolute disaster. The boy was burned alive by one of my soldiers.

[Tula]

Soldier from Arrakis?

[Mark Strong]

Yes.

[Tula]

How?

[Mark Strong]

He claims to have been swallowed by a sandworm.

[Tula]

Claims?

[Mark Strong]

It's on the surveillance.

[Tula]

You're telling me Desmond Hart survived an attack by Shai Halut?

[Mark Strong]

Yes. He says the worm gave him a gift, some sort of power. I don't know. He's obviously insane. You know, he'll be blamed for this. If Richesi finds out, he'll think I issued the order.

[John Cameron]

Cash.

[Mark Strong]

I didn't trust that soldier. Where was she when I needed her?

[Tula]

Be calm. Here we go. We must proceed carefully, but we can handle this now.

[Mark Strong]

Do you suggest we do that?

[Tula]

You saw the boy's body. His death was unnatural. Desmond Hardcore still have value.

[Mark Strong]

What do you mean?

[Tula]

There are many who would turn their weapons against us, and this man pledges his in our defense. All I'm saying is let's not rush to execute our friends, to please our enemies.

[Ahmad Ali Akbar]

I love how Mark's. You know, your character starts panicking, but, Jodie, your character starts thinking, oh, this could be useful. I want to talk a little bit about, you know, that relationship that they have with each other. Kind of what you were thinking of their backstory. Like, what did you see as sort of the unseen backstory of these two? Do they love each other? You know, what is their relationship with each other, do you think?

[Mark Strong]

But those little moments that you just mentioned, they tell the story. So, I mean, obviously it's an arranged marriage that they've had, but they've been together the whole time and they've been managing this piece together. But it's so obvious that Corino can't handle that quite as well as the Empress can. And you get a sense from those little moments that she has the cool, calm head who can see what might be useful in this guy that's turned up in their lives. And he's panicking. But what you then subsequently discover is how he then decides to try and use this guy as a weapon. He sees the sort of purpose behind it, and actually it sort of reverts back the other way. So there's always a kind of movement between the two of them about who is actually in charge.

[Tula]

I love that. I really get the sense that, you know, it's like a marriage that. Where there was love, I think, certainly from Natalia's point of view, and there's a real sense of disillusionment that she's been sidelined. And, you know, she's very disenfranchised. She doesn't have a voice or any kind of influence. And then really, I guess, you know, end of one, beginning of two is where you start seeing her trying to position herself and working out, you know, how she can seize upon the opportunity of the appearance of Desmond Hart. And, you know, he's also an outsider like her. And, you know, he's been marginalized like her. And I kind of like the way that we're then sort of drawn into this almost. It's a bit like the Rock, you know, just before the complete dissolution of the Russian royal family and this appearance of a kind of Rasputin figure. And it's really interesting the way that we meet them at this moment, which is almost indicative of a kind of dissolution of empire. I mean, certainly, if you relate it back to the Romanovs. Anyway. So, yeah, she's, as Marx says, she's brave enough to seize upon that opportunity and fearless enough and decisive enough, because she hasn't been emasculated, you know, in the way that he. She thinks he has because of the sisterhood, which I guess, you know, she kind of perceives him to be a bit like a kind of bad therapist that he's over dependent upon, essentially. You know, it's a bit like, okay, darling, you know, come back into the marriage now. You don't. You don't need to be, you know, that.

[Greta Johnson]

You've heard enough, You've heard enough.

[Mark Strong]

You know, there's that fabulous line that. It's a brilliant euphemism that he uses when the Mother Superior turns up and he says of the Empress. My wife has always been a champion of debate.

[Greta Johnson]

Yes.

[Mark Strong]

Which I think is hilarious.

[Greta Johnson]

Yes.

[Mark Strong]

Because I think there's a lot of mead underneath there.

[Greta Johnson]

That's a good one.

[Tula]

It's really dripping with irony.

[Mark Strong]

A lot of discussions.

[Greta Johnson]

Jodie, it's fascinating to hear you refer to Desmond as Rasputin, because you're not the first person to do it. And I wonder, is that something that you all discussed as a cast?

[Tula]

I mean, I don't know. I guess me and Mark had conversations. I mean. Yeah, I guess we kind of did in rehearsals.

[Mark Strong]

I don't know, he just seemed to be other. You know, he just wasn't of the court. He was a soldier who has this mysterious history. And of course, there's a wonderful sequence where the Emperor spends some time seeing what actually happened to him, how he was, you know, eaten by the worm or destroyed by the worm, and yet here he is, alive. He's obviously something extraordinary, something's going on. But, yeah, he does have this. This sort of mystical hold, I think largely for the Emperor. From my point of view, from. From Havoco's point of view, it's that he sees him as a potential weapon. He can get rid of his enemies with this special power he has. And suddenly there's the possibility, if I can keep him on side, that he can, you know, help me maintain this peace that he's finding so difficult to maintain.

[Tula]

Yeah. It's really interesting how he's a catalyst, isn't it?

[Mark Strong]

But he also. He has him. He has him arrested because he's really, you know, he's quite. He's terrified at the beginning, the thought, you know, and it's quite obvious the. The proposal that Desmond is making. You know, I can get rid of your enemies because I believe in you and I believe in. In the Imperium, and that's very seductive for Havoco. But the way in which it's Done is something he doesn't believe that he can get away with. And then I suppose he gets that sort of dictatorial feel over him where he thinks, actually, I'm in charge and I can do what I want. And if I get this guy to do my dirty work, then people are going to be afraid of me and I'm going to be the head honcho.

[Greta Johnson]

Yeah, well, there's that great line, Jodie, that your character has too. Let's not rush to execute our friends to please our enemies.

[Tula]

Yeah, I mean, she's not. She's not as. Yeah, she's not as sort of prevaricating and fearful as her husband. She's much more willing to sort of throw caution to the wind and, you know, she's a bit more like a politician. Natalia, I think she's. She's better at making these sort of back room deals and, you know, playing people off against each other. And I think there's a bit of the, you know, I think there's a Tony Soprano in there somewhere, desperate to get out. Are you a prophet, Desmond Hart? Not long ago, I would have laughed at that. I believed in nothing. And now.

[Ahmad Ali Akbar]

I don't know. There are things that I can do.

[Tula]

Beautiful.

[Mark Strong]

Terrible things.

[Tula]

I think if you were given a gift, you should use it, lest it be taken away. Duke Riches is reclaiming his fleet and has threatened to seize Arrakis. Why not just deliver you to him and solve all our problems?

[Ahmad Ali Akbar]

I am still a soldier.

[Tula]

I am at your mercy and your command.

[Ahmad Ali Akbar]

Why not let me show you how.

[Mark Strong]

I would humble those who try to take from you or sway you with corrupt counsel?

[Greta Johnson]

I think also it's interesting to figure out, is Desmond a friend solely because he killed the kid? Or, you know, like, yes, he could be a weapon with which you can align, but how risky is that, too? Like, the definition of friend and enemy within the context of these first two episodes, I think is also really interesting.

[Tula]

Yeah, I like that moral ambiguity. I just like the fact that we never really know where we are with these people. And I suppose what Natalia is sort of drawn to in Desmond is that there is this kind of mysticism again, that they both identify with. You know, they're not of this kind of super scientific order that the sisterhood conform to. They're much more in the territory of things that are unexplained and that are instinctive and intuitive and could absolutely go either way. I don't know, there's like, she's. I think she's just quite intrigued by him. As well.

[Mark Strong]

You also get the feeling that nobody else in their world has that power. It is quite different.

[Tula]

Yeah. Again, mysticism, Shai Hulud, it's all that stuff, isn't it? It's kind of. And then that starts the question for, you know, sort of, are you a prophet? You know, which is so interesting.

[Ahmad Ali Akbar]

Right. Of course. You know, a lot of Dune is about this question of prophecy and, you know, where powers are coming from. It adds some intrigue, I think, into Desmond. Like, what is it that, like, peaks her ears up there when she hears about the sandworm attack?

[Tula]

Well, I think it's because she's from that world of religion, if you like, you know, her world would have been one that's much more grounded in religion and tradition and, you know, possibly a kind of, you know, tribal world, maybe. So, you know, I think that's where she kind of thinks, oh, okay, yes, we both believe in this thing, you know, so for her, that's, that's. She's on stable ground there. I think she's onto something anyway, and there's a promise of something. I think that's why she takes a gamble and a risk.

[Greta Johnson]

So, yeah, at this point in the season, these two episodes in, do you think it's a good idea for them to side with Desmond over the sisterhood? Like, there are definitely benefits and risks to that. What do you think, Jodie?

[Tula]

I just think, you know, Natalia thinks there's no other choice. I mean, she's, you know, she's in this situation where she can, for a start, she's seeing her daughter being engaged to a nine year old boy, which is absolutely horrific. So, you know, I really think that for Natalia, she's prepared to take any steps to make sure that her daughter doesn't end up in the same emasculated position as her husband. And I think it's needs must. I don't think there's any other option for her that makes sense.

[Ahmad Ali Akbar]

I think thinking of these characters as like humans also and how that scale that we talked about at the beginning, like, I am really curious about this question of can the Emperor feel bad about the death of one child? You know, like, how does he actually feel about the death of one child? Like, does he. Do you think he feels bad about the way the child was killed?

[Mark Strong]

I think he does. You know, he does say to him, I didn't ask you to kill that boy. And I suppose the interesting thing for the audience is to decide, is he ashamed of that because of the trouble that he thinks he might get in, you know, when he gets out. Or is it that he actually cares about the fact that this guy has ended this young man's life? You know, both things are going on, to be honest. And I think slowly he begins to get. Get seduced by the fact that, you know, that kind of power, as appalling and as destructive and as terrifying as it is, if you can harness it, then it gives you control. And he's seduced by that. So I think he's more interested in that than he is, actually. The fact that Desmond's been burning these guys up.

[Tula]

Yeah, it's so interesting, isn't it? Because it really goes back to that sort of front, Frank Herbert's sort of obsession with power and how corrupting it is. And I think you really see that play out, you know, through Havoco's kind of.

[Greta Johnson]

Yeah.

[Tula]

Transformation of character, I think in that particular moment.

[Greta Johnson]

I have a feeling many things are going to change over the course of the next several episodes with both of your characters, that's for sure. Yeah, I can't wait. Well, thank you. Thank you both for coming on and chatting with us. This was such a pleasure.

[Ahmad Ali Akbar]

Pleasure.

[Tula]

Thank you.

[Mark Strong]

Thanks.

[Ahmad Ali Akbar]

That's all for this week. We'll be back next Sunday night with more special guests. To break down the third episode of Dune Prophecy, which you can stream exclusively.

[Greta Johnson]

On max, be sure to subscribe to the podcast so you don't miss an episode. And if you like what you are hearing, don't forget to leave a rating and review on your podcast, podcast player of choice and find us on the Dune Prophecy social media handles.

[Ahmad Ali Akbar]

The official Dune Prophecy podcast is produced by HBO in collaboration with Pineapple Street Studios. I'm Ahmed Aliakbar.

[Greta Johnson]

And I'm Greta Johnson. Our executive producers for Pineapple street are Gabrielle Lewis, J. Ann Barry, and Bari Finkel. Our lead engineer for the show is Hannes Brown. Pineapple's head of sound and engineering is Raj Makhi. Pineapple senior audio engineers are Marina Pais and Pedro Elvira. This episode is mixed by Hannah Spraum.

[Ahmad Ali Akbar]

This episode was edited by Darby Bologna, and our producers are Ben Goldberg and Melissa Akiko Slaughter.

[Greta Johnson]

Special thanks to Becky Rowe, Allison Cohen and Erin Kelly from the MAX podcast team.

[Ahmad Ali Akbar]

Thanks for listening. See you next week.

[Mark Strong]

We are all just pieces on the board to be played in the pursuit.

[Tula]

Of power and spice.