← The Official Dune: Prophecy Podcast
The Official Dune: Prophecy Podcast
Ep.3: Sisterhood Above All (EP/Writer Jordan Goldberg, Director Richard Lewis, EP Mark Tobey, Costume Designer Bojana Nikitović, and Actors Jessica Barden and Emma Canning)
00:55:07
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- [00:07]
Valya Harkonnen
Sometimes our misfortunes are the sails that take us to the shores we are meant to be on. You can achieve extraordinary things here, even shape the course of the Imperium, if you decide to stay.
- [00:25]
Greta Johnson
Welcome to the official Dune Prophecy Podcast. I'm Greta Johnson.
- [00:29]
Amidal Akbur
And I'm Amidal Yakbur. Today we're digging into the third episode of Dune Prophecy, and as always, we have some very special guests to break it down with us.
- [00:37]
Greta Johnson
Yes, first up, we are going to talk with the episode's director, Richard Lewis, along with executive producer and writer Jordan Goldberg and executive producer Mark Tobey.
- [00:46]
Amidal Akbur
Then later, we're joined by the actors who play young Valya and young Tula, Jessica Barden and Emma Canning. And we'll talk with the costume designer who brought the looks of Dune to life.
- [00:54]
Greta Johnson
And, listener, here is your spoiler warning. There are spoilers ahead for the first three episodes of Dune Pride, so consider yourself warned.
- [01:04]
Valya Harkonnen
This is not the first time an adversary has sought to remove me. Like the others, this soldier will learn.
- [01:17]
Greta Johnson
Okay, Emmet, let's do a quick recap of this third episode. It is titled Sisterhood Above All. And it starts on an excessively dreary planet, Lankaveil, which is where the Harkonnens live. And they were sent to live there after the Great Machine wars, which is something that Valya references in episode one.
- [01:35]
Amidal Akbur
Yes, we're meeting young Valya and Tula in their childhood home. And that's where we learned that Valya used the voice for the first time in her youth to save her beloved brother, Griffin. Later, Griffin is killed, and Valya. Typical Valya, vows revenge. She loves doing that. She makes her way to the sisterhood, finds a mentor and Mother Superior, Raquela, and eventually undergoes the agony.
- [01:57]
Greta Johnson
Yes, Tula has a heck of an arc in this episode as well. She ends up on a secret mission to work her way into the Atreides clan, where she manages to kill pretty much everybody, including a young man who she may or may not have been in love with. Also in the present day, Valya is developing a plan to defeat Desmond Heart and regain the trust of the Emperor. And by the end of the episode, that plan brings her face to face with her Harkonnen family, which is probably the last place she wants to be. And in the present, on Wallach 9, Tula is using both a thinking machine and spice to secretly keep Lila alive. She fell into a coma while undergoing the agony.
- [02:43]
Amidal Akbur
I want to hear what you thought about the Valia Tula relationship in their youth.
- [02:49]
Greta Johnson
There's so much to unpack. I'm really excited to talk to the two actors who play these young characters. Cause I think there's just a lot to talk about, especially with them. But I thought the backstory was really helpful and just brought a lot of story that I didn't know existed, which was really interesting, you know, like, especially the Atreides mass murder. Like, did not see that coming.
- [03:09]
Amidal Akbur
Yeah. I mean, it was a big question also for me, just, like, the extent of which we would see other planets and seeing, like, a different environmental. You know, kind of the environment that the Harkonnens are in. It's, like, pretty miserable. You know, it's. You could see how dour you would be living on that planet.
- [03:26]
Greta Johnson
Yeah.
- [03:27]
Amidal Akbur
No. And we also have the other scene on the Atreides planet calendar. And I love the, you know, integration of the natural stuff that we saw in this episode. That was like, a really fresh way in. Because Dune has a lot to say about nature. It's about politics, too, but it's also about Earth and your relationship to it.
- [03:42]
Greta Johnson
Totally.
- [03:43]
Amidal Akbur
So we got to see that here. I also thought it was Earth. Sorry. There's many planets. Let's say Arrakis, or your relationship to it, or whatever you want to say. Let's say it's a metaphor.
- [03:52]
Greta Johnson
Yes. There you go. Well, I think also I found it really interesting to get to know Valya's kind of origin story with the sisterhood, because she's actually a little more reticent than I thought she would be. I knew she was a bit of a rebel, but, I mean, Raquela kind of had to talk her into the whole thing in a lot of ways, you know.
- [04:13]
Amidal Akbur
Yeah. You know, her relationship to her family is, like, a really big question for me of how it's going to evolve. I mean, the fact that she's kept Tula close. I assumed that they had joined together. Right. And seeing that Tula actually did perhaps what we've seen to so far to be the most brutal murder of the series.
- [04:31]
Greta Johnson
Murder, plural.
- [04:32]
Amidal Akbur
Really. It's a declaration of violence, really, against the tradies, which is obviously going to last a long time. And that kind of pushes her into a situation where she's joining the sisterhood. I'm not sure that she was intended to go there. So it's really interesting to me to think about, to recontextualize the earlier episodes and the earlier things they said.
- [04:48]
Greta Johnson
Yes, totally.
- [04:49]
Amidal Akbur
Tula did show some mercy on young Albert Atreides. Yeah. She did leave one to tell the story which is in some ways also a cruel tactic. Yeah, it's one of those cruel tactics that, like, it was kind of depicted as mercy here, but, you know, it's kind of a very, you know, I've destroyed your family and, you know, never cross me again kind of thing as well.
- [05:11]
Greta Johnson
I was reminded about part of the conversation we had in episode two about the title of that one, which was called Two Wolves. And, like, which is worse, The Wolf who Cries over the Lamb or the One who Doesn't? And, yeah, that was something I found myself thinking about throughout this episode, especially in terms of Tula.
- [05:27]
Amidal Akbur
Totally.
- [05:31]
Greta Johnson
Okay, now we are going to break down the episode and get some of our questions answered by a few key people on the show in our weekly segment, beyond the Veil. Joining us today is director Richard Lewis, executive producer Mark Tobey, and we welcome back to the podcast executive producer and writer Jordan Goldberg. So, Jordan, this is a huge episode. We really get origin stories, like significant arcs of backstory for both Valiet and Tula. This is perhaps an interesting point in a season to do a flashback just because we are sort of at the halfway point with episode three out of six. What were the conversations you had that made you realize, like, this was the time to kind of give this, like, significant backstory?
- [06:17]
Jordan Goldberg
Well, I think a lot of good series uses the kind of backstory origin stories kind of deepen your characters and helps them kind of make their journey going forward a lot more interesting. These particular characters, I think, had even a more present need for that kind of thing. Not only their relationship, but also their lineage. And in the books, it's a very interesting story about the Harkonnens. They are not who we think they really are. Their kind of descendant was marked a coward and banished to this place. And really, he made a decision not to kill millions of people in a war. It was sort of like a, you know, a moment of pacifism that was kind of branded as an act of cowardice, and they all suffered from it. And that was an interesting place to kind of start to think about. Oh, this is. This is really kind of fascinating, the kind of how they would react to that and how, like, someone with Valya who has all these ambitions like that, that kind of history is kind of a stain that she's trying to kind of erase. Also in the books, there was this story about Valya and Tula perpetrating this act of vengeance because the death of their brother. And it ends up, you know, beginning this generational feud with the Atreides, you know, Clan. And that seemed like something we should, like, kind of tip our toe into. But Monica Usu. Breen came on to do a lot of heavy lifting with the writing, and she's a. I don't know if you know her work, but she's an amazing writer, and she used to work with Alison a lot. And, you know, I worked on the outlines, got it ready. Monica did a few drafts.
- [07:58]
Amidal Akbur
It was.
- [07:58]
Jordan Goldberg
And it was great. And she was. Monica's very good about bringing the real raw emotions into the characters. And, you know, it was important for us to tell that story so we.
- [08:06]
Amidal Akbur
Get more backstory, but we also get a new setting here at Lanky Vel, which is their family planet. The Harkonnens were banished there after the Machine Wars. Richard, let's talk a little bit about creating that set. Was it shot on set or on location? And, like, what were some of the thoughts about how you wanted to emphasize how brutally cold it was, how brutally severe of a place it is to grow up?
- [08:30]
Richard Lewis
My whole thing was, like, it has to feel. Feel brutal.
- [08:32]
Greta Johnson
It has to be really cold, really.
- [08:34]
Richard Lewis
You know, and I. I kept. I don't know, but I kept telling Jordan, like, as he was in post, and, okay, they're gonna add snow, right? They're gonna add more snow, right? There's gonna be more snow. So, you know, I was like, it's not supposed to be an inviting place. It's supposed to be a place you want to escape from as. As Valia does and. And Tula does eventually.
- [08:52]
Greta Johnson
Well, having grown up in Fairbanks, Alaska, where it is currently 27 degrees below zero, you did a great job. And we heard, too, that, like, it did actually snow, right? Like, you had. Was it the first snow even when you were filming?
- [09:07]
Richard Lewis
I think so. Mark, did it snow? It was pretty snowy, right?
- [09:10]
Mark Tobey
Yeah. Because of a lot of the challenges with our schedule, we really had to do a lot of juggling. So even though the Lankaville scenes play in episode three, we actually shot them at the very end of our schedule. And fortuitously, it was the first day of snow when we actually went to shoot, so there was actually snow falling onto the set, which was kind of a minor miracle, really.
- [09:34]
Greta Johnson
That's really cool.
- [09:35]
Amidal Akbur
I want to talk about the whaling industry and all those props as well, both in just a storytelling sense and also a visual sense. What's the deal with the whales? We keep getting reminded it's all about whales here. So what did that mean for you all, and how did you visually and through storytelling use the whales?
- [09:55]
Richard Lewis
Jordan, you speak on that to start off with, like, why. I think that's from the books. It's from the books.
- [09:59]
Jessica Barden
Yeah.
- [09:59]
Jordan Goldberg
I mean, they're into. I believe that they have a history of the. And whaling. And we needed, you know, just to kind of further kind of put the Harkonnens on a really kind of dismal level. I mean, their economy, their resources is not the most glamorous thing. And we, you know, I think it was important to show the harsh environment and really sort of the kind of lack of opportunity for someone like Valya on that planet, just to kind of. So we can resonate with the idea that she has these grand ambitions in play and why she would want to escape this place so badly. I mean, I love when she's ordering dinner. I mean, the idea that that's the only thing they can eat is just, you know, it's a fate worse than death for her. It's horrible. It's a horrible fate.
- [10:47]
Amidal Akbur
Well, and I love the family dynamic, too, that they're like, you brought the bad whale meat home. Like, you could just get this layers of family argument.
- [10:55]
Jordan Goldberg
It's not a functional family.
- [10:56]
Valya Harkonnen
Your father has plenty of status.
- [10:58]
Emma Canning
Oh, yes, the mayor of peasants valued. Your grandfather. Abulad Harkonnen was a hero. He didn't commit a war crime. He tried to stop a genocide. Vorian Atreides stripped our family of its honor based on a lie. We should be leaders of the Imperium.
- [11:18]
Valya Harkonnen
I don't understand where it comes from, your greed, this entitlement.
- [11:21]
Emma Canning
I don't want to just. This complacency is a disease. If we don't act now, it will infect all of us and all who come after us. I won't sit by and let it happen.
- [11:34]
Amidal Akbur
Let's talk a little bit about that family dynamic. Like, what are each of the different kids and their relationship to their. To their elders, bringing to each other, bringing to that table. Right.
- [11:43]
Jordan Goldberg
Well, from a script point of view, we wanted to have a family dynamic where Valya is a little bit out of step with everyone else. You know, everyone else is just kind of grappling with the situation they're in. Valya doesn't think it's appropriate, wants more for them. I think that Valya, because she's not getting along with her parents or seeing eye to eye to them, I think the person that she's closest to is her brother. And her ambitions have disastrous effects for him. And what she's left with is guilt, anger, and her little sister. And how does she, you know, transfer all that onto the little sister is an interesting thing. But, you know, those were just the words we set up. I mean, the way had, you know, Richard concocted on screen, I think was, I'll let Richard tell it. But, you know, it really came alive for me when I was watching it.
- [12:37]
Richard Lewis
Yeah, I think it's one of those scenes where, you know that you have to get out of the gate. Well, you know, you've got to make sure that that scene sets the. Sets the table for the rest of the episode. And in thinking about it, I was thinking I wanted it to be spontaneous. I wanted overlapping dialogue. I wanted her to be a pivot point and the point of view to come from her. So I wanted her to have eye contact with Griffin. There were a lot of things that were in the script that I was just dissecting and trying to figure out what's the best way to approach this. But ultimately I decided to shoot it. You know, Richard Donnelly, the really fabulous DP on this. And I decided to shoot it handheld. We did a number of these family scenes that way just to give it kind of a. Kind of an edgy little unsettling feeling, because I think you want to feel unsettled with this family. You don't want to feel like, oh, this is a nice family dinner where people are talking civilly towards each other. So I just wanted to have an edge. So, I mean, I think that came across.
- [13:42]
Greta Johnson
It's interesting to hear you mention guilt, Jordan, in terms of something that Valya would have felt after Griffin's death. I hadn't thought of that as like her really propelling him forward. I figured he had sort of thought of it as his birthright and would have done it anyway.
- [13:56]
Jordan Goldberg
And I like. I mean, the way you staged it, their conversations, the last conversations that Valya had with Griffin. I mean, it's the location you guys found and the way it was staged. I mean, the idea that they're looking out to a horizon and, you know, is there a future there? It's so you. Can you tell the difference between the sky and the ground? Is there, you know, is there a world to which they can go to? There's mountains and rivers in front of them. It just seems impossible.
- [14:25]
Richard Lewis
I think that was a no brainer, Mark.
- [14:27]
Mark Tobey
When we saw that location, it was hands down.
- [14:28]
Richard Lewis
Right. We were just. Mark and I were just.
- [14:30]
Mark Tobey
Yeah. Nothing else really competed, which I think is true with pretty, pretty much all of our locations on this episode where we found the one option that actually functioned hand in hand with the Story. Because we spent a lot of time looking for some of these and happened upon them, thank God, because Plan B was shooting the little grassy pond behind the stage, you know, or the.
- [14:56]
Greta Johnson
That's interesting. Did that feel lucky?
- [14:58]
Mark Tobey
Felt extremely lucky. You know, the Caledon location, that's where the Atreides camp was. We had spent months looking for. You know, Hungary has a lot of things going for it, but one thing it doesn't really have is a diversity of locations. It's mostly, you know, it's mostly farm country. It tends to be, you know, very gently rolling hills. So it doesn't have a lot of dynamic topography. And we had changed location managers. And after sort of combing everything possible, he found the Caledon location. And it was. I mean, stunning. It was. It was stunning.
- [15:33]
Richard Lewis
Yeah. Hats off to Damon. Damon Crane, you know, English fellow who became our location manager.
- [15:41]
Amidal Akbur
Quick clarifying question here. When I was watching it, do they name it as Kalandad in this? Or is that kind of the twist that she was falling in love with an Atreides? I didn't catch it. I kind of assumed, like, this could be an Atreides. But I think it was a bit of a twist. Right.
- [15:54]
Richard Lewis
Well, I think it's really important that you don't know. If we had said Caladan, the book people, all the people who know the book would go, oh, fuck, I know what's gonna happen. So we want. And I really wanted it to be kind of a surprise when he wakes up in the morning and they play that scene and he goes out there and sees all the dead bodies.
- [16:15]
Amidal Akbur
There's also the misdirection of, is this guy a good guy? Because if she finds out that she's been lying, is he going to attack her? That's the fear that is in the audience's head that a lot of these scenes do end up like that. When the big reveal happens. Usually the noblest instincts don't come out of the conflict. Right. Like, the conflict was predetermined, which was such an interesting way to reveal it. And I guess we should take, like, step back a little bit and talk about that relationship between Tula and Ori Atreides.
- [16:44]
Jessica Barden
My name isn't Tula Veil.
- [16:47]
Valya Harkonnen
I lied to you.
- [16:48]
Jessica Barden
It's Tula Harkonnen.
- [16:50]
Amidal Akbur
I certainly understand what you didn't want to tell me. No one chooses the name they're born with. Could never blame you for that.
- [17:00]
Jessica Barden
You don't hate me.
- [17:01]
Emma Canning
I hate you.
- [17:04]
Jordan Goldberg
Nothing would make me hate you.
- [17:06]
Jessica Barden
Our families would disagree.
- [17:07]
Amidal Akbur
Our families?
- [17:08]
Richard Lewis
Yeah.
- [17:08]
Jordan Goldberg
They choose Hate because of what they're taught. That a disagreement between our ancestors during.
- [17:15]
Amidal Akbur
Wartime over a century ago, should bleed into their future.
- [17:19]
Jordan Goldberg
But that is their burden, not us.
- [17:23]
Amidal Akbur
It's okay.
- [17:24]
Jessica Barden
I promise it's gonna be okay.
- [17:25]
Greta Johnson
Just listen to me.
- [17:26]
Jordan Goldberg
We will write a future for ourselves, okay?
- [17:29]
Amidal Akbur
Something's got to be changed, Rory.
- [17:33]
Valya Harkonnen
My brother Griffin will still be dead.
- [17:37]
Jessica Barden
And it will still be an Atreides who killed him. We do what we must.
- [17:45]
Mark Tobey
I found that, to me. To me, the most poignant moment, mainly in the series, because it was an intersection of time, where he actually. There was an opportunity there to end the feud right there, that he gave an out. He gave an opportunity to completely change the trajectory of all of their lives. And everything was going to come from it. Everything, essentially, that followed could have been altered, but at that point, it was too late. I thought it was really tremendous that when the final. You know, probably the most sympathetic character that we ever see is sort of tragically dispensed with in the course of this, you know, of this sort of tragic tale that. Yeah, he's just discarded, I think, too.
- [18:33]
Greta Johnson
Emma acts the hell out of that scene where you really can see how much she's wrestling with the question of, like, what have I done? Because it's pretty clear to me that, like, his response to her being a Harkonnen is not at all what she had anticipated, but it's too late to do anything about it at that point.
- [18:49]
Richard Lewis
I think she didn't anticipate falling in love with him. You know, I think that was the thing that she, you know, dreaded the most. And her struggle comes from the fact. And I'm glad that you picked up on it, Greta, you know, that. That at any point, she could pull the trigger or back out of this deal. I feel like at any point she could have said, I'm not doing this. I'm going to change the trajectory. I'm going to marry this man, and that's going to be it. But she doesn't. She ends up having more allegiance to her family and her sister.
- [19:27]
Jordan Goldberg
But at the same time, as we cut into the present, Tula refuses to give up on Lila. You know what I mean? And I don't know whether that's a manifestation of guilt and stuff like that. And, you know, it's an interesting, you know, how it affects the present and where she is in the present. You know?
- [19:48]
Greta Johnson
You know, I mean, she's breaking all the rules at this point with Lila.
- [19:51]
Jordan Goldberg
Yep.
- [19:54]
Greta Johnson
What were you going to say, Rich?
- [19:55]
Richard Lewis
Oh, no, I was Just going to say, you know, ask Jordan. Provocative question about Tula's methodology of killing. Like, at what point did she decide, this is how I'm gonna do it? You know, did she come with a plan? Did she have a different plan that she said, oh, you know, poison's better. Did she know about these little poisoned animals that are used for the bull.
- [20:17]
Amidal Akbur
And she communicate with value? That's the other question that I had, that same line of questions. But is Valia involved or is that completely self, you know, made?
- [20:23]
Jordan Goldberg
Well, I don't know. I mean, I have my own imaginations. But the truth is, I think. I think Griffin meant so much to them that an eye for an eye wasn't enough. You know, it was an eye for the entire body. So fortuitously, this hunt, which is a tradition in the family, happens to be the opportunity to wield the axe.
- [20:50]
Amidal Akbur
So, you know, let's talk about another big decision being made in the Sisterhood plotline, which we haven't touched on much, which is that Valya develops this relationship with Raquela, and Raquela asked her to settle her allegiances, come back a Reverend Mother or don't do the agony or not, and Valya does it out in the snow on her own. Talk a little bit about that decision. What are the reasonings behind why she decided to undergo the agony then and there?
- [21:18]
Richard Lewis
Well, you know, she was going to take the agony previous, as you see earlier in the episode, she backs out at the last minute. As a result, she's cast out. She feels like she really let one slip and everybody thinks she doesn't have it, and she doesn't even know if she has it. And I think it's really. It was really important to the character to take the poison at the right moment. I think anybody who's going to try to become a Reverend Mother, I think they have to be in the right place. This is so funny. Like, as if it's real, you know, they have to be in the right place in mind to be successful. And I just feel like she wasn't there yet and she knew that. So when she goes back to her home, she finally comes to the point where she realizes, I cannot be here anymore. I cannot do this anymore. And she feels, you know, ready, poised to be successful. I don't know that she knows that, but somewhere deep down, she feels like this is kind of the last ditch effort to escape her predicament.
- [22:27]
Greta Johnson
Richard, I totally hear what you're saying about her uncertainty, but it reads to me as just not giving A shit. Which totally tracks for how Valya would behave in that situation. Right. Cause she's not actually gonna be vulnerable about any of it.
- [22:40]
Richard Lewis
I also think she probably thinks she's.
- [22:43]
Amidal Akbur
Gonna die, and she seems to accept it. It requires an acceptance of death to do that. Acceptance of risk. There.
- [22:50]
Greta Johnson
We haven't talked too much about the present day and the thinking machine of it all. Do you think Valya would approve of the decision Tula has made with Lila? Yeah.
- [23:02]
Jordan Goldberg
I think there's been a history of people who have tried the agony and failed. And I think that it's best to let those people go because it will frighten people who will have to go try it again. So I think her decision to spare Lila. This is an audible on tool. Is part. And I would say, though. And Mark can speak to this. The location is incredible that they found for this thing. You should tell them about it, Mark. It's an unbelievable location.
- [23:34]
Mark Tobey
There's a huge tunnel complex in Budapest. It was actually. It was created in World War II. The German army built their warplanes in these massive tunnels, and they go on forever. It's. It's. It makes for an incredible shooting location, but an incredibly uncomfortable shooting location as well. Cause it's like. It's freezing cold, it's damp, but it's incredibly sort of. It gives a kind of a dynamic feel that you just can't find anywhere else.
- [24:07]
Greta Johnson
That's so creepy and perfect. That location.
- [24:09]
Jordan Goldberg
It was like 80 something degrees outside, but when you went down there to shoot, it was like 10 degrees. So you'd be like, I gotta. I gotta. I gotta go to the bathroom. You walk outside, you're like. You're like 20 layers of, like, winter clothing on, and you're like, holy cow.
- [24:21]
Amidal Akbur
What the heck?
- [24:23]
Mark Tobey
I came up with every. Everything I could possibly do to make sure there were other things scheduled on those days to keep me occupied elsewhere as much as possible, because it was not pleasant.
- [24:35]
Emma Canning
Yeah.
- [24:37]
Greta Johnson
Well, thank you all so much for joining us and for helping unpack this epic episode.
- [24:43]
Jordan Goldberg
Thank you very much.
- [24:44]
Amidal Akbur
This is great fun. Thanks.
- [24:45]
Richard Lewis
Thank you.
- [24:53]
Greta Johnson
We are so happy to welcome the young Harkonnen sisters. Jessica Barden, who plays Valya, and Emma Canning, who plays Tula. Welcome to the podcast.
- [25:02]
Jessica Barden
Hello.
- [25:02]
Emma Canning
Thank you for having us.
- [25:04]
Greta Johnson
Thank you for coming on. So we are here today talking about episode three, which I'm really excited to have both of you here for that. Obviously, over the course of the first two episodes, we got a sense that Harkonnen family dynamics were, let's say, a Little tense, but I would love to hear what you think about how the women, particularly in this family, relate to each other. Jessica, what do you think?
- [25:28]
Emma Canning
They don't. That was always. I mean, Emma will probably. I think Emma. Tula would have something different to say, but for Valya, I think I don't. I don't relate to anybody, and that's the problem. And me and Emily discuss this, like, a fair amount. There's a lot of envy of Tula because she is a good person and she doesn't find it difficult to be good, whereas Valya finds it really hard to just be normal and to be a good person. So, you know, there's a lot of envy there as well as. Like, I really need her as well. It's definitely a dysfunctional relationship, I think, for me.
- [26:08]
Jessica Barden
Yeah. Like, the gaze is very much. My gaze is always drawn back to Valya and very much met with, like, the side of a cheek, kind of. I don't think there's too much. Yeah. As you say, Jess, like relating to each other.
- [26:23]
Emma Canning
They just need each other to survive.
- [26:25]
Jessica Barden
Yeah. Yeah. Certainly at the start of the episode.
- [26:28]
Greta Johnson
Yeah. Well, I think you get a sense. I mean, throughout this episode, I think about even that last scene with the agony, you really get a sense that these. To. It is a relationship of necessity, you.
- [26:38]
Emma Canning
Know, and through the rest of the series, I mean, it really is a credit, obviously, to the writing, because I know that we spoke. You spoke with Olivia and I would speak with Emily, but the four of us, like, never really, like, planned anything. There was just no time. But it carries on through the rest of the series, which is so interesting. I have a daughter now, and I'm about to have another daughter, and I grew up with brothers, so I'm. Ever since I've told people, like, oh, I'm having another girl, suddenly you're like. I'm introduced to this whole other part of life where sisters have this very unique life together that I have no idea about.
- [27:17]
Greta Johnson
Emma, do you have any sisters?
- [27:19]
Jessica Barden
No, I have a brother. So this was really interesting. I mean, myself and Olivia talked about, obviously, the role of Tula, but also kind of birth order, and Olivia's the youngest, so she could really speak to kind of the idea that, you know, with each child, more and more space is taken up and there's kind of less and less to reach for as a kind of a way to differentiate yourself and kind of. Yeah. Like an identity. And I think that was something that. What I think, especially at the top of this episode, is so the Struggle of Tula. She's very much in the shad of everyone else.
- [28:05]
Emma Canning
Isn't Valya the middle child?
- [28:07]
Jessica Barden
Yeah.
- [28:08]
Greta Johnson
Which is interesting.
- [28:09]
Emma Canning
Which is obviously hysterical.
- [28:12]
Greta Johnson
That's interesting. Well, but she's still the big sister, you know, which I think does always have a certain weight to it when she wants to. Yeah.
- [28:18]
Emma Canning
And clearly she wants just completely cut from, like, a different cloth.
- [28:22]
Greta Johnson
Yes. Yes.
- [28:23]
Amidal Akbur
I think one question that's worth asking is, like, you know, if they have such a challenging relationship with their hearkeningness with their own family, like, why is Valya so attached to the family legacy? And how does Tula feel about her family legacy?
- [28:40]
Emma Canning
I think with Valya, it's just pure kind of stubbornness. Like, I think it's just like, you are born, and you can be a stubborn person that wants to be right, and Valya wants to be right. Like, she wants to. Well, she originally wants to avenge her family and have this truth, and then she realizes, you know, fuck them. They don't appreciate me anyway. I'm gonna avenge myself. Which is obviously, like, just beyond incredible to play. And I think that she's, like, truly believes that she's destined to be a leader, and if her family isn't gonna go on this journey with her, I'll just do it myself, you know?
- [29:22]
Richard Lewis
So.
- [29:22]
Greta Johnson
Yeah. What do you think, then, about Tula's trajectory, Emma? Because it seemed to me that a lot of it hinged on her brother's death, which is what really got her thinking. Oh, yeah. Maybe Valia does have a point here.
- [29:35]
Jessica Barden
I think that's kind of the whole motivating factor. I mean, I think for me, obviously, there was a lot of backstory to build in prep of, like, what is. What was the relationship with Griffin? And, you know, kind of did he see her in the way that everyone else doesn't seem to? And, you know, there is that line that she says early on to Valia is like, an eye for an eye will never be enough.
- [30:01]
Amidal Akbur
Why is Griffin so significant for each sister? Is he, like, kind of a neutral person where they both can look up to him, you know, so that they, you know, have a. Like, a better way of processing their relationship to the family? And why does his death trigger what they'd each go on to do? Like, how do you think that your future characters are taking Griffin's death into.
- [30:21]
Emma Canning
Well, he's the way out. Cause he's, like, the firstborn son. Right. So he can go. He has so many more rights in the world and in the universe as a guy. Like, he Obviously has, like, the birthright to be the person that can go to the Imperium and can, like, fight and can ask for all these things and can try and avenge us. And then, you know, obviously, I think that's how Valia and Tula find out that, like, you can go and be in the sisterhood and you can fuck shit up as well. Like, I think that there's two different things to it. I think that Valya especially, like, completely hero worships, like, her brother and is like, wow, like, he can be our savior. Like, I think he gives her a purpose in this, like, disgusting, like, cold planet, and he's this beacon of hope, you know?
- [31:09]
Greta Johnson
We talked to Emily recently, and she described Griffin as the love of Valya's life.
- [31:13]
Emma Canning
And then she has to, like, take Tula instead, you know.
- [31:19]
Amidal Akbur
She sounds so disappointed.
- [31:21]
Jessica Barden
Charity shop version.
- [31:23]
Amidal Akbur
Emma. Emma, I need to know, like, you know, when this plan comes in for the vengeance against the Atreides, like, how much of the character is doing this because of a genuine grief for Griffin versus, you know, being put in that position by Valya? Was she groomed, as the character says here, into this plan?
- [31:43]
Jessica Barden
That's so interesting. I think both can exist, and both do exist. I mean, I think Griffin, the way I thought about him was kind of like, you know, he is my only friend. I don't think Tula has any other friends. So that's like a colossal loss and kind of one that. I mean, grief makes all of us do crazy things. This is probably a bit too crazy, but I think it also drives her into just. She sees an opening, I suppose, by value side and a real opportunity to kind of finally prove herself and finally step forward. And I think she just really wants recognition and approval and another friend.
- [32:31]
Emma Canning
It's really sad.
- [32:34]
Amidal Akbur
It's. The family is very sad.
- [32:39]
Greta Johnson
So I would love to talk more about sort of the plan of the sisterhood, because as we learn in this episode, it becomes very clear that for Valya, it's about being able to be truthsayer for her brother. And it does really seem like her conviction in terms of being a part of the sisterhood also falters upon his death because she's sort of like, what's the point of any of this?
- [33:03]
Emma Canning
Yeah, it's funny that Emily said that Griffin was the love of her life, because I also felt like mother, you know, Raquela, mother superior, is like, the first person that then enters her life and is like, oh, like, she's the only neutral person and just a neutral person who you Know, a teacher, like, a head teacher and is like, I can see that you have potential, and we can nurture you, and it's normal. You know, there's nothing kind of bizarre about it. It's just a normal relationship where a teacher sees a pupil that has a gift, right? And she really kind of, like, fills this spot that has gone with Griffin that, you know, Mother Raquela, like, comes in, and there's this new vision for her to kind of, like, latch onto and, like, a new obsession in a way similar to what Emma was saying about Tula. Like, in grief, like, people often do crazy things, and they, like, latch onto something to just, like, have a new obsession, to, like, fill it. And I think that's what begins to happen at the sisterhood. Then she gets taken on, like, another ride, which is so much bigger than just, like, going and being a truthsayer, really.
- [34:17]
Amidal Akbur
I think the other interesting thing we see at the school is a different side of Valya. When she kind of has the secret of the voice and she's sharing it with her peers. You know, there's like, a different sort of. Maybe she's commanding them, but there's a softness.
- [34:32]
Emma Canning
She's not confident there. I really wanted that to come through. What I wanted to create was, you know, people get stuck in a pattern with their families of, like, it's all projected and, like, well, you're gonna react like this, and you know that I'm gonna do this, so I'm just gonna do this anyway. And it's not even necessarily how she is. It's, like how she's been painted and made to feel by her family, so that she's just trapped in this thankless role, really, of being a brat, basically, and being ungrateful, so that when she goes to school, you kind of see more of her, which is she is an observer, and you have to see parts of how she ends up being a leader. So she does know how to take a. And watch, you know, you can't just be a bulldozer and be a leader. And she doesn't have a lot of friends there. She feels misunderstood. Nobody thinks that she's gonna do well. And then she has this gift that has probably felt like a burden for most of her life. And then this head teacher, you know, the mother superior Raquela, tells her, actually, you can, like, completely change the universe of this. But she still doesn't know what to do with, like, how does she do something good? You know, how does she. Somebody's giving her a compliment, like, somebody's paying attention to her in a positive way. All of these things to me were so relatable, like, they were all normal things that in any. Not just in this genre, in any genre, like any. This character could exist in any single TV show or movie anywhere. A young person who grew up in a family, like, just a completely depressed family, that did not pay any attention to finding anything redeemable about them going somewhere and being told, actually you can do something good. And the journey of that person going, like, what do I do? When people actually suddenly pay attention to me? And that was what I felt was the whole point of episode three.
- [36:33]
Greta Johnson
So then, Emma, how did you think about Tula's relationship with Oria treaties? Does she actually have feelings for him or is it all an act?
- [36:41]
Jessica Barden
Alicent talked about it in kind of a. You know, Griffin is the soon to be patriarch of the Harkonnens, and Ori is kind of his mirror in the Atreides clan. So it's kind of a tit for tat. And I think as she goes on that journey and, you know, gains independence and confidence and that kind of morphs and she's like, actually, that isn't gonna be enough. And it's really about kind of trying to. Trying to come to terms with the grief and the loss of her brother.
- [37:13]
Greta Johnson
By killing a shit ton of people?
- [37:15]
Amidal Akbur
Yeah.
- [37:15]
Jessica Barden
Cause one person isn't gonna do it.
- [37:19]
Amidal Akbur
In the last episode, I was talking about how there's something so cold about the way Valya uses the voice and uses the same command over and over again. Pick up your knife and drive it in your throat. Like, she doesn't regret it. But there was almost something more chilling about Tula in this episode, because I really couldn't tell what she felt about, like, the tears were real or the murder was real. Like, the actions versus, like, Emma. Where did you fall on that in the end? Like, did you feel like she was as conflicted as she was verbalizing, or do her actions reveal, like, a real coldness inside?
- [37:53]
Greta Johnson
Especially, it does seem like there's a moment when she confesses that her last name is Harkonnen. And he's like, that's fine. Whatever. It seems to me like she is sort of like, oh, shit. Like, I could have had that.
- [38:03]
Jessica Barden
Yes. I mean, I think Alison and Richard, our director, they gave me a huge gift in kind of saying, like, you know, this is a love story, and we want this to be a love story. So it immediately, you know, there is the other option of she isn't in love with Ori. But by making that choice, it's like the stakes and the internal conflict are so huge. And the more she falls in love with him, the more messed up her insides are feeling. So I think the more I leaned into. I love this man, the harder all of it was. And I think at every point she's trying to do the right thing and pick the right side. And in that moment that you were talking about Greta, where, you know, she does reveal her last name, I think she's really expecting for him to kind of show his true colors and to reject her and for her to understand that, like, yeah, you deserve what's coming and what has happened outside and the kind of the shock of how genuine he is and actually how much of a wonderful person he is is like. It's just heartbreaking.
- [39:23]
Greta Johnson
It really is. It was such a shocking scene to watch.
- [39:26]
Jessica Barden
Yeah.
- [39:28]
Greta Johnson
Who do you think is more dangerous.
- [39:30]
Emma Canning
Of the two sisters?
- [39:31]
Greta Johnson
Of the two sisters, yeah.
- [39:33]
Emma Canning
Because obviously, like, it feels like the obvious answer is Tula because she is like a. What is it like a wolf in a sheep's.
- [39:42]
Jessica Barden
A wolf in sheep's clothing.
- [39:43]
Emma Canning
Yeah, she's a wolf in sheep's comb. Whereas Valir is very much like what you see is what you get. Like, she never pretends to be.
- [39:50]
Greta Johnson
There's no surprise in her menace.
- [39:52]
Emma Canning
No, she never pretends to be anything different. She's completely self obsessed and she's like a dictator.
- [40:02]
Greta Johnson
You know, it's all right there, though. Yeah.
- [40:04]
Emma Canning
But whereas Tula also seems to understand consequences, which is a crazy thing for like somebody who does the things that she does to feel, you know, she then dares to process after, which is really sick. Value doesn't.
- [40:25]
Greta Johnson
Doesn't pretend or be balanced.
- [40:27]
Amidal Akbur
Yeah.
- [40:27]
Greta Johnson
No, that.
- [40:27]
Richard Lewis
No.
- [40:28]
Emma Canning
Value doesn't mean that. She's just like, we move on, you know, like.
- [40:32]
Jessica Barden
Yeah, yeah. I love the class that Olivia holds where she's talking about what lying is and.
- [40:41]
Emma Canning
Oh, yeah, yeah.
- [40:42]
Jessica Barden
Like the line, episode one. Yeah, yeah. In episode one where she says, you know, and we lie to ourselves. And I think that's pretty bang on with Tula. I think there's kind of constant internal and external lies going on.
- [40:57]
Amidal Akbur
So, Emma, do you agree that Tula is the more dangerous one?
- [41:00]
Jessica Barden
Yeah, yeah, I would.
- [41:01]
Emma Canning
She's a messy bear. She's messy. She's a messy girl.
- [41:06]
Jessica Barden
I think she's pretty unpredictable, which is like. That doesn't feel safe when you can't predict what someone's gonna do or like, actually what they want.
- [41:18]
Greta Johnson
Yeah.
- [41:18]
Emma Canning
I think also the fact that Valya has kept her around as long tells you that she is very dangerous and she knows that because she can't let her out of her sight.
- [41:29]
Greta Johnson
Yeah.
- [41:30]
Amidal Akbur
Well, we're looking forward to seeing how the characters grow in the next few episodes. Thank you so much, Jessica Barden and Emma Canning for joining us.
- [41:37]
Greta Johnson
Yes.
- [41:37]
Emma Canning
Thanks, guys.
- [41:38]
Jessica Barden
Yeah, thank you.
- [41:46]
Greta Johnson
Now we are so happy to check in with costume designer Bojana Nikitovic. Bojana, welcome.
- [41:54]
Valya Harkonnen
Thank you. Thank you for inviting me.
- [41:56]
Amidal Akbur
We're so excited. This is a very basic question, but as somebody who's not crafty, not good with making things, this kind of thing must take over your mind. Do you ever wake up in the middle of the night and go, oh, I have an idea for how I'm going to make that thing look? And you work on stuff like how. How is it like a 24 hour thing that you're trying to think about? It is. Yeah, okay.
- [42:15]
Valya Harkonnen
It is for me, definitely it is. And that's why it's so beautiful. But it's exhausting because you don't stop thinking, not only me, I think the team that is working within me, that they're all the time, night and day, thinking about, how can we do it? How can we make it look better or something. I never worked with Alison before, but we were like on a daily basis, non stop exchanging references, images, drawings. Sometimes, you know, 10 o'clock at night after a long day, like she would send the message or something. She said, I will just. I'm sending you this because maybe during the night you will find the solution. You will find that. So. Yeah.
- [43:03]
Greta Johnson
How well did you know the world of Dune before taking on this job? Did you ever read the books or watch the movie?
- [43:09]
Valya Harkonnen
I, of course I watch the movies and movies really visually absolutely fantastic and they are so great. But I read the two books when I was young and then when I heard that I will do it, then I took the books of all the books and I read them, like in 10 days, I think, or maybe two weeks time. Like, I was like reading. I couldn't stop. And what is so wonderful in our script is that there are pieces, but it's also different, you know? Yeah.
- [43:42]
Greta Johnson
So I think one of my favorite things that I've noticed so far about the costumes is that the women of the sisterhood get such great traveling cloaks, like with those giant hoods. I love them so much. But I would love to talk even more broadly about how you came up with the different aesthetics of the women of the sisterhood, specifically, because everything is really functional, but pretty austere. I think it's a really interesting set of choices that you've made with those costumes specifically.
- [44:12]
Valya Harkonnen
I don't know whether you noticed, whether anyone noticed. I. I hope it will be seen in the. During the series. Actually. Those are pants. Whether they're wearing. They're not. It looks like a dress, but they're. They're wearing pants.
- [44:25]
Greta Johnson
But just chic, wide legged pants.
- [44:27]
Valya Harkonnen
Yes. So all the very on trend. And I really hope it. We will see it so during the series more. Because usually the camera goes from the back. So you see from the back it looks like a dress, but actually they're wearing pants. And I know that all the actresses, you know, from the sisterhood, young ones, they went like crazy. And we gave them. I gave them like pockets so they could, you know, put their hands in the pockets. Move.
- [44:53]
Greta Johnson
Well, you have to have pockets in this situation.
- [44:56]
Valya Harkonnen
Exactly. The pockets were actually really helpful because sometimes they're putting their knives or the other things that they're wearing that they're carrying.
- [45:06]
Greta Johnson
Carrying.
- [45:06]
Valya Harkonnen
Yeah, it was good to have them.
- [45:09]
Amidal Akbur
Is the knives legitimately in the pockets? Like, did you design a knife holster in some of their.
- [45:14]
Valya Harkonnen
No, but I knew that they're having to put knives, so I said, let's put it in the pocket. And you don't see the pocket, but it's there. Then the other thing is, we started with the dresses, but if I would show you drawings, it was like five or 10 different options for that. I mean, that was also color wise. We wanted to like see that there were girls who had just arrived. Then we have. Yeah, novices, then we have acolytes, then we have reverend mothers. And so we made all in this monochrome palette because the whole Wallach 9 is gray and rainy and stormy. And so we went through that and we wanted to show the difference from valenine to salusa and to the colors that we are going to show on Corrino Family. And then when we started thinking about Alice said, can we make a trousers? I was, oh, that would be absolutely amazing. So.
- [46:17]
Greta Johnson
Fighting the patriarchy one costume at a time. I love it.
- [46:22]
Amidal Akbur
If a sisterhood was to design a costume for themselves, it would have pockets.
- [46:26]
Greta Johnson
Pockets.
- [46:27]
Jordan Goldberg
A thousand.
- [46:29]
Valya Harkonnen
Because. Yeah. In real life you would love to have pockets, wouldn't you? You know. Yeah.
- [46:37]
Greta Johnson
Well, and hidden pockets especially is very symbolically rich for the sisterhood, I think.
- [46:43]
Valya Harkonnen
Yes, yes, yes.
- [46:45]
Amidal Akbur
So I feel like in the show, the obvious thing that you really want to talk about with costumes is the sisterhood, because I feel like A group of people in a uniform, they really stand out. You know, that's what a uniform. But on the other hand, we have a whole other thing we could talk about on the imperial planet, which is the, you know, the one of a kind kind of thing. The I'm standing out on the day of my special day. So, of course, the most important thing that does get a lot of visual time is the wedding dress. And as is, you know, kind of all the bridal stuff that she has. There's a scene of the fitting with her mother where she's being kind of, you know, kind of snapped in. So interesting how we went on such detail there. Like, let's talk about that dress.
- [47:22]
Valya Harkonnen
Oh, yes. I think we are all very proud of that dress. The idea was, for me, it's. Fabric is so important. And when you do the. When you choose the right fabric or when you make your own fabric in a certain way, I think it resolves 80% of the costume. Then it's a silhouette. It has to have a right silhouette. For me, I worked a lot in Italy. I learned that from silhouettes. Really, really important. And to get the fabric for the red dress, we used one layer of a silk satin duchess. And then we did. The other layer is laser cut. So we made the fabric completely so important. That scene where the Natalia, the queen, is dressing daughter and giving her something from her culture, from her history. So. And also, believe it or not, I went to Vienna for something else, for, I don't know, for fabrics or some. And I found the necklace. And the necklace was so. So. But the pieces that were. That it was made of, I was like, this is amazing. So that's what we. What we started from. Then our metal guy, because we have a metal department, then he started making pieces. It was a long process and it wasn't. It was really important for it to fit well, to have all this, you know, and. Yeah. And then we got to the upper part of the. Of the dress that looks like a net also, in a way to show that she's, in a way, getting trapped in the whole situation. Yeah. So that was the idea. Yeah.
- [49:18]
Amidal Akbur
And yet she was choosing it. Oddly, she also was going into it willingly. That was what was such a great about it. Like, she's kind of putting it on her. I love the visual uniform.
- [49:25]
Valya Harkonnen
Yes, yes, yes. Oh, that scene is really good.
- [49:30]
Greta Johnson
Why a red wedding dress?
- [49:32]
Valya Harkonnen
Boyana, I must say, I inherited, like, it. It was already in the scene.
- [49:38]
Greta Johnson
Oh, sure.
- [49:39]
Valya Harkonnen
But I really love the idea. I really like it.
- [49:41]
Greta Johnson
I mean, it's gorgeous.
- [49:42]
Valya Harkonnen
Yes.
- [49:43]
Amidal Akbur
Can I actually say something about this? Because it's really interesting to me. When you look at like most sci fi shows, most fantasy shows in the history, men wore long coats. Okay. They wore long coats at court. Every culture, they're gonna have long coats. The only seemingly culture in the world that I know of, besides maybe West Africans, where the long coat is still part of our bridal wear, is my culture, which is Indians and Pakistanis. We have shravanis, we have Nehru. So when I see Mark Strong, he is wearing what looks to me like a shirvani. Like it looks to me like what I wear at my wore at my wedding. You know, my family members have worn. And I find it so fascinating. Like, is that something that like costume designers of the west are able to put together? Cause obviously, like the Nehru collar, that style is most popular in the West. I just want to be clear, like it's not foreign or is it something that you have, you're turning to like Indian designers or whatever. And the reason why I bring this up is because our bridal colors.
- [50:36]
Valya Harkonnen
I know, yeah.
- [50:37]
Greta Johnson
That is interesting.
- [50:38]
Valya Harkonnen
I just wanted to say, I mean, in India, bridal color is red and it's amazing. Yeah. I must say that I find Indian outfits one of the most amazing, you know, gorgeous pieces because they are.
- [50:52]
Amidal Akbur
Yes, it's.
- [50:53]
Valya Harkonnen
It's still so masculine, but it's so beautiful in it. It has this clean silhouette. So I don't know whether it was subconscious. I mean, because I love India. I wasn't directly inspired by the Indian mascot, but Max Strong, I just wanted. He's such a perfect actor. He wears costume in a way. I mean, it's always. Everything is. After the whole day of shooting, everything is exactly in the right place. So since he is also. And the emperor and he's also the leader and he's a military person, we wanted to mix that between uniform and, you know, the outfits for the, for the ceremony. I know female costumes are always more attractive, but I really like well dressed men.
- [51:49]
Amidal Akbur
I would wear Mark's. I would wear many parts of Mark's outfit. That's good to a wedding. The next wedding I go to, like genuinely, I would take bits and pieces and wear that to the next three day Pakistani wedding I go to.
- [52:01]
Greta Johnson
Well, if you want to send me a cloak, I will happily accept it.
- [52:05]
Jordan Goldberg
Yeah.
- [52:06]
Amidal Akbur
If you. Mark. I don't think I'm Mark Saige, but I will definitely take his left of that.
- [52:12]
Greta Johnson
Well, thank you so much for talking with us. This really was so much fun.
- [52:15]
Valya Harkonnen
Thank you. It was such a pleasure. Thank you.
- [52:22]
Amidal Akbur
That's all for this week. We'll be back next Sunday night with more special guests to break down the fourth episode of Dune Prophecy, which you can watch on HBO or stream exclusively on max.
- [52:31]
Greta Johnson
Be sure to subscribe to the podcast so you don't miss an episode. And if you like what you're hearing, you would be doing us a huge favor by leaving us a rating and review on your podcast player of choice. You can also find us on the Dune Prophecy social media hand.
- [52:45]
Amidal Akbur
The official Dune Prophecy Podcast is produced by HBO in collaboration with Pineapple Street Studios. I'm Amadel Akbar. Follow me at radbrowndettes.
- [52:52]
Greta Johnson
And I'm Greta Johnson and I am on social media retamjohnsen. Our executive producers for Pineapple street are Gabrielle Lewis, JN Barry, and Bari Finkel. Our lead engineer for this show is Hannah's Brown. Pineapple's head of sound and engineering is Raj Makhija. Pineapple's senior audio engine are Marina Pais and Pedro Elvira. This episode is mixed by Hannah Sproun.
- [53:15]
Amidal Akbur
Our editor is Darby Maloney, and our producers are Ben Goldberg and Melissa Akiko Slaughter.
- [53:20]
Greta Johnson
Special thanks to Becky Rowe, Allison Cohen and Erin Kelly from the MAX Podcast team.
- [53:25]
Amidal Akbur
Thanks for listening. See you next week.
- [53:27]
Valya Harkonnen
She's a wolf and if you're not careful, she will devour.