← The Official Dune: Prophecy Podcast
The Official Dune: Prophecy Podcast
Ep.4: Twice Born (Writers Kevin Lau & Suzanne Wrubel; Actors Sarah-Sofie Boussnina, Chris Mason, and Shalom Brune-Franklin; and VFX Producer Terron Pratt and VFX Supervisor Michael Enriquez)
01:04:24
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- [00:07]
Ahmed Aliakbar
There are predators in our midst, and.
- [00:11]
Kevin Lau
We need a leader who will chase those predators away.
- [00:16]
Ahmed Aliakbar
From now on, there will be no excuses, no exceptions.
- [00:28]
Greta Johnson
Welcome to the official Dune Prophecy podcast. Hi, I'm Greta Johnson.
- [00:33]
Amid Albert
And I'm Amid Albert. Today we're unpacking the fourth episode of.
- [00:37]
Greta Johnson
Dune Prophecy, and we are not doing it alone. First, we have writers Kevin Lau and Suzanne Rubel to break it all down with us. And then we are joined by actors Sarah Sophie Busnina, Shalom Bruin Franklin, and Chris Mason, who play Princess Inez, Sister Mikayla, and the palace swordsmaster, Kieran Atreides.
- [00:57]
Amid Albert
And finally, we get to talk world building with visual effects producer Taryn Pratt and visual effects supervisor Michael Enriquez, who helped bring this beautiful and terrifying world to life.
- [01:07]
Greta Johnson
All right, you know the drill. There are spoilers here for the first four episodes of Dune Prophecy, so we would highly recommend you go watch those first and then come back.
- [01:15]
Suzanne Rubel
Push further into your mind.
- [01:22]
Amid Albert
Show me what you see.
- [01:29]
Greta Johnson
All right, should we do a quick recap of this fourth episode called Twice Born? Emmet.
- [01:35]
Amid Albert
Yes. So let's start on Wallach 9, where all of the acolytes are having a terrible simultaneous nightmare. All of them except for Jen, feeling a little left out, but probably for the better for her. So Tula makes them go into a trance and draw what they see, but the experiment does not go as planned.
- [01:52]
Greta Johnson
Meanwhile, Valya returns home to House Harkonnen as part of her plan to wheedle her way back into the Emperor's good graces.
- [01:59]
Amid Albert
And at the High Council gathering, Inez is about to reveal Desmond Hart's part in Pruitt's murder. But Desmond reveals the truth himself and also squashes the rebel plot that Valia has put into motion. So kind of a lot of things happening in this episode. Serpent eating its own tail, lots of plots. You know, I was head spinning by the end.
- [02:23]
Greta Johnson
Yeah.
- [02:24]
Amid Albert
You know, of course, we see a lot of Valya in her home. That's, I think, been a big. A big moment here for her to come back into that space. And, you know, it's not very. It's just still continues to be a very unhappy family. Very, very unhappy family.
- [02:39]
Greta Johnson
Yes. Very dire. I mean, what plan are we on with Valia at this point? I mean, it's definitely not Plan A. Is it Plan B, or are we at Plan C by now?
- [02:47]
Amid Albert
It just reminds me of that line from X Men where they're like, I don't like the term Plan A because that implies we only have 26 plan that's what I'm always thinking that with this insert. It's like. It's not plan A. It's like plan one through a billion. You know what I mean? I don't think she. I think they're all operating at the same time. I think that's one of the amazing things that you have to think about, the Reverend Mothers is these people have a lot of minds in them. Okay.
- [03:13]
Greta Johnson
Yeah.
- [03:14]
Amid Albert
They become computers in their own way because they have their ancestors full memories. Like, really think about that. Like, the database of their mothers and everyone before them is in their head. Like a hard drive. Like, it's terabytes.
- [03:27]
Greta Johnson
Yeah. That is a really interesting and helpful analogy, I think, because, yeah, you think about how many different things your computer can do at once. And, yeah, it's like they're just going.
- [03:36]
Amid Albert
But what I think is also great is they're also humans. You know what I mean? Like, it's not.
- [03:39]
Greta Johnson
They're fallible. Yes, yes. Well. And things just don't go as planned in this episode, I think, in some very interesting ways, I think, especially about the Landsraad, which I would love to hear your thoughts. Like, did you think Desmond Hart was just gonna stand up in front of all those people and be like, yeah, I did it. So what?
- [03:55]
Amid Albert
Honestly, I was going into there thinking, okay, Desmond has been the most straightforward guy.
- [04:00]
Greta Johnson
That's true.
- [04:00]
Amid Albert
In an odd way, like, as opposed to the Sisterhood, where no one knows what they're really thinking and they kind of, like, evade questions. He answers you directly, and he kind of seems to do what he says, even if it's a mystery why he's doing it. So, like, it makes sense that he would do that. You know, he would just be like, yeah, I'm gonna start executing people.
- [04:15]
Greta Johnson
That's true. It does make sense. And then, of course, he's gonna, like, burn a bunch of people from the inside, too. Cause why not? That's, like, the perfect way to shore up a lot of support, I think, and really instill the fear that will help establish his power. Right?
- [04:29]
Amid Albert
Yeah. And, God, what a terrible way to die. Horace's death was bad, man. I wasn't, like, the biggest fan of him, but it's not fun to, like, just the carrying the clothes off. Ugh. Horrifying, dude.
- [04:40]
Greta Johnson
Less scorched earth and more scorched flesh. Sorry, I had to say it.
- [04:43]
Amid Albert
Yes.
- [04:46]
Greta Johnson
Okay, now we are going to go beyond the veil and break down the episode with the writers of this episode, Kevin Lau and Suzanne Rubel. Welcome, you two.
- [04:54]
Kevin Lau
Hello.
- [04:54]
Sarah Sophie Busnina
Thank you.
- [04:56]
Amid Albert
We're so excited to have you here. And, you know, we've been asking every guest this. What was your relationship with Dune before you joined this project? Suzanne, why don't we start with you?
- [05:04]
Sarah Sophie Busnina
Yeah, I was a big Dune fan. I think I picked up Dune. I was a big sci fi fantasy fan growing up. So I think I read dune probably around 14 or 15. Loved it. I still have my original, like, paperback versions. I think that probably some of the headier, like, political stuff maybe went over my head a little bit as a kid, but I, you know, I.
- [05:22]
Amid Albert
Same, by the way.
- [05:23]
Sarah Sophie Busnina
Yeah, totally. But, you know, even as a teenager, it felt like very elevated and sort of almost like an introduction to philosophy. But then I revisited the series as an adult and sort of, you know, reread the entire thing and, you know, loved it just as much. So, yeah, when the opportunity came up to work on the show, it was sort of a dream come true.
- [05:41]
Greta Johnson
What about you, Kevin?
- [05:42]
Kevin Lau
My first exposure to Dune was when I was a young lad and I had come upon David Lynch's Dune on KTLA 5 on television. And I was watching it, I was like, what are these sandworms? This is insane. From there, I had an extreme curiosity of it. I mean, it was unlike anything that I had seen. And then, you know, consequently, when I. When I read the books, you know, science fiction without real, like, without delving into technology and more so delving into characters and like, that idea of humanity, you could just start seeing, like, the influence that that had on, like, all. All this other science fiction that I really liked and that I really liked. And then when I got onto this project, I was very excited when I got the call.
- [06:29]
Greta Johnson
So this episode is called Twice Born. I imagine it is called that for a number of different reasons, but I would love to hear why.
- [06:36]
Sarah Sophie Busnina
You know, I think it's a reference to the clue they get from Raquela in episode two when they're able to access her through Lila. You know, she sort of says the key to the Reckoning is one Twice Born. And in this episode, we see, you know, Valya and Tula on their separate paths, sort of exploring, you know, Valya is kind of on Salusa, hunting down the Desmond track, who she believes is the Twice Born, that he's the reckoning coming for the sisterhood. And that's what that prophecy means. While Tula is dealing with the fact that these nightmares that Kaja experienced are coming to Wallic at the sisterhood with, the students are experiencing these. And there's this Question is that the reckoning coming to the sisterhood. And you see at the end, you know, she has this hope that maybe Lila is the one twice born, you know, once born in blood, once born in spice, that she's gonna be the key to the reckoning. Maybe in a good way. Vers Valya is sort of believing that Desmond's the reckoning, this sort of twice born figure in a bad way.
- [07:32]
Kevin Lau
I also think that in this episode, there are a lot of characters that go through rebirths in one form or fashion. And Lila, obviously, of course. And yes, we are hinting at the reckoning with the twice born, but also for all these characters, I think they all go through major journeys.
- [07:49]
Amid Albert
In this episode, I want to talk about Lila. Let's focus on Lila a little bit, because that's where we did end the episode. We have Lila waking up. Was Tula doing this because she really thought this would happen? Was it grief? Like, was this what was expected? Talk about the state that Lila and Tula are in at the end of that episode.
- [08:08]
Kevin Lau
This was a young woman that she cared deeply about, that she could not let go. I think also through this journey that they've been on, you know, she is hoping that she is the key to Raquela's prophecy, you know, that there is an idea that if she can bring her back to life, you know, perhaps she can help solve what is happening at the sisterhood. I think there's just a lot of love at the end of the episode, you know, a lot of caring. There's some hope, I think, that emerges from the shadows between Tula and Lila. And also, you know, where Lila wakes up, too. It's a huge question mark for her, you know, and Tula had to risk exposing her to this great secret in order to bring her back to life.
- [08:52]
Sarah Sophie Busnina
I think one of the most fun things about the writers room is that we're, like, constantly getting into debates about, you know, these, like, the characters of Dune. What's great about them is they're not these black and white hero heroes and villains, but the characters exist in the gray. And I think this really interesting way. And we're constantly arguing about our characters, like, their intentions, like, where they exist on that scale. And that's one of my favorite things about working on this show.
- [09:15]
Kevin Lau
Absolutely. And, like, what's best for the greater good, what's best for humanity. Not this year, not next year, but potentially 10,000 years down the line. You know, like, what do you. How do you weigh what you're willing to sacrifice in Order to achieve that end. And, like, that's the morally squishy area that we like to play in.
- [09:33]
Greta Johnson
Morally squishy is such a good way of putting that.
- [09:36]
Sarah Sophie Busnina
I love it.
- [09:38]
Greta Johnson
Well, yeah. Let's back up to the beginning of this episode when the acolytes are having the same nightmare. I think this arc is so fascinating. We see the nightmare initially, which I feel like this episode has a lot of, like, is this a dream or is this really happening? Moments. But we see Emmaline slitting her own throat in a nightmare. I guess. Let's start with. I mean, how are these acolytes all having the same dream? They're also very reminiscent of what Kasha was dreaming about, too.
- [10:05]
Kevin Lau
Yeah. I mean, I think, you know, obviously a lot of it's open to interpretation, but I think, you know, our intention here is to reflect Kasha's nightmare coming to Wallach. And could this be the reckoning that is coming?
- [10:20]
Sarah Sophie Busnina
Yeah. So it was an exciting opportunity to try and figure out, like, how do we want to explore that? We wanted to come up with a fun, you know, sort of visceral visual sequence to have Tulik sort of explore those nightmares. So that's where the sort of idea of having these acolytes draw their nightmares and playing with the idea that part of their training.
- [10:39]
Greta Johnson
Right.
- [10:39]
Sarah Sophie Busnina
Is they can sort of control themselves on this sort of cellular level or, you know, sort of be able to do these things that. That other people can't, and use their training to have Tula guide them back through this nightmare, but now control it. Obviously, that doesn't. That's not quite how it goes down.
- [10:54]
Amid Albert
Can I ask, just, like, making this happen in the writer's room, to me, it deals with a very fascinating historical concept. The idea that people are, like, compulsively doing the same thing as a group. But we were talking beforehand like, the dancing plague of 1518, just people dancing themselves to death. Why is this happening? You know, like, I think it's a very unusual scene you've set up here. I want to talk about how. What was the inspiration?
- [11:17]
Greta Johnson
I thought the use of the word hysteria in that scene was also, like, very, very incisive.
- [11:22]
Suzanne Rubel
Yeah.
- [11:23]
Sarah Sophie Busnina
And I think in terms of coming up with the sequence, I mean, that was a great, very intelligent reference. I feel like we came to it because we were just like, we want something cool and cool things are real.
- [11:34]
Amid Albert
That's the best way to do it.
- [11:35]
Sarah Sophie Busnina
I love that. Yeah. But I think we wanted to evoke that feeling of the mass hysteria and not just have, like, you know, Tula going from student to student, being like, what was your nightmare? But being able to do it in this way that felt this growing sen of dread and the fact that they're all experiencing the same thing, to be able to evoke that, that it's this thing that has come to the sisterhood as a whole versus sort of experiencing it all as, like, individuals.
- [11:59]
Kevin Lau
Yeah. And really, it is, like, a huge test for Tula. And in terms of, like, her leadership, how is she going to deal with this as the de facto mother superior? And we want to put her in a situation that allowed her to explore that and, you know, to also compare to, like, well, what would Evalia done?
- [12:17]
Greta Johnson
Let's listen to Tula kind of setting up the experiment, because I think it is just a really interesting scene.
- [12:22]
Amid Albert
I want you to close your eyes. Feel your heart rate slow. A vision forms in your mind. Now take your charcoal.
- [12:37]
Greta Johnson
Allow the connection between the mind and the body to guide your hand.
- [12:44]
Amid Albert
Show me what you see. I'm getting chills just hearing the charcoal.
- [12:50]
Greta Johnson
I know.
- [12:51]
Amid Albert
Like, honestly, just imagining that picture they draw at the end, I'm like, oh, no, I don't want them to do that again.
- [12:56]
Greta Johnson
I mean, it is really interesting. I love what you bring up about the idea of, like, yes, Tula could have asked each of these people individually what they saw, but the magnitude of all of them all at once doing the same thing is so much more impactful.
- [13:11]
Sarah Sophie Busnina
And I think listening to. Yeah. Tula's kind of introduction, I think just what's great about Dune, and I think the thing that's interesting is that you have these aspects of the world that kind of, you know, could feel magical, but they're not. Like, they always have this basis in sort of a physical reality or a science. And what's so fun about Dune is that all these things kind of arose out of getting rid of machines, that humans sort of had to elevate themselves to sort of replace that. And that's why, essentially, we didn't want Tula to. For this to be magic, there had to be a sort of reason why it made sense for them to be able to go back into their nightmares, that this is something that their skills as sisters, they would be able to do. So it kind of has that blend of science and magic that I think makes Dune kind of special.
- [13:55]
Kevin Lau
And what do the eyes mean?
- [13:57]
Greta Johnson
All these eyes staring?
- [14:00]
Shalom Bruin Franklin
Yep.
- [14:00]
Amid Albert
Big question.
- [14:01]
Greta Johnson
Eyes are creepy.
- [14:03]
Kevin Lau
And just how scary it is when Tula realizes she no longer has control, that fear has taken over. That Moment. I know we really wanted to build to. And that helplessness that she feels and the terror of it all.
- [14:17]
Greta Johnson
Yeah. The layers of fear there are pretty interesting, Right, because all the girls are obviously super afraid. But then Tula, on seeing that and realizing that she's lost control, also is experiencing her own fear, which, again, I think also harkens back to Dune. Right. The idea that it's the mind killer. I mean, here we are.
- [14:34]
Sarah Sophie Busnina
Yeah. And then at the end of the episode, you sort of culminate in Tula, you know, Tula's nightmare and sort of seeing her fears.
- [14:41]
Amid Albert
Well, I really want to keep talking about this, but we have to. There's other plots in the show, too, we got to discuss. So we should move to Valya, I think, in the Harkonnen house. She's in a very uncomfortable spot here in House Harkonnen. Let's talk a little bit about what's been going on with House Harkonnen since Valya left them.
- [14:59]
Kevin Lau
Well, I think what's interesting, in one of the initial scenes where Valya returns to Harkonnen House, like, both sides feel like the other party abandoned them. You know, Valya left, chose a sisterhood. And, you know, from Valya's point of view, it feels like they rejected her and rejected her methods and what she wanted to do to return House Harkonnen to its rightful position in the Imperium. And you can see in her leaving House Harkonnen, in the intervening years, House Harkonnen has not done well. You know, they are a low house that are middling and struggling right now, struggling to gain influence in the Imperium, and struggling, I would think, to just really survive based on their whale fur trade. You know, they've been slowly trying to work their way up, pulling themselves up by their bootstraps, so to speak. But, I mean, look at the other side of the coin.
- [15:53]
Greta Johnson
Their whale fur bootstraps. Exactly.
- [15:55]
Sarah Sophie Busnina
Yeah.
- [15:56]
Kevin Lau
They're in style. They'll never go out of style. And if you look at the other side of the coin, look at what Vahlya has done with the sisterhood.
- [16:03]
Greta Johnson
Yeah.
- [16:03]
Kevin Lau
I think that is one of, you know, the arguments Valya makes to Evgeny in that final scene. Like, if they had followed her, they would already be at the top of the mountain.
- [16:12]
Greta Johnson
Yeah.
- [16:13]
Kevin Lau
Your poor sister.
- [16:15]
Greta Johnson
I did nothing till too late.
- [16:16]
Kevin Lau
You knew how much she admired you. You abused her love like you abused Griffin's, until you broke her, too.
- [16:26]
Amid Albert
All you Harkonnens are cowards, too afraid to make Difficult choices. I will not apologize for what I.
- [16:33]
Kevin Lau
Did, and I will not apologize for my strength.
- [16:36]
Chris Mason
Such strength.
- [16:38]
Kevin Lau
It's sorcery. I saw it that day before you.
- [16:43]
Amid Albert
Left Lankyvale, mind you.
- [16:45]
Kevin Lau
Then one day, it will destroy me.
- [16:51]
Amid Albert
You know, Evgeny is, like, a pretty nasty kind of guy. Seems like to me, I would not want to be in a conversation with him. But you're kind of like, oh, like, I guess maybe she did get Griffon killed. Like, he has some points there while he's suffering and dying. Even though it's, like, really awful and pointed, like they really can't see eye to eye. That's how I saw it, at least. Maybe I'm identifying with monsters. But that's what's so great about Dune also, is, like, sometimes you're like, oh, maybe the monster isn't the monster.
- [17:18]
Sarah Sophie Busnina
Yeah. And I think it's one of the few times you sort of see older Valya get heated in that way, you know, which I think indicates that some of the things he's saying to her may be, you know, sort of poking at fears that she herself has, you know, that she got Griffin killed. So, yeah, that was a great, fun confrontation, because I think he is saying to her things that she does not want to hear. But, you know, I think this idea that she left House Harkonnen to join the Sisterhood because they're the ones. Raquela, like, sort of saw her strength and valued it in a way that House Harkonnen never could, is kind of like the core of the emotional, you know, push pull between the sisterhood and the Harkonnens for Valya.
- [17:58]
Kevin Lau
And I just love Evgeny dishing truth back at Valya. You could absolutely say everything he is saying is right, you know, from one perspective. You know, she potentially did get Griffin killed. You know, she did understand her relationship with Tula and how to manipulate that, and that Tula looked up to her. I mean, there is truth to what he's saying, and I think that is why Vah responds the way that she does. It is hard to hear.
- [18:26]
Greta Johnson
So Valya, of course, brings Theodosia with her, which is very interesting. I have a lot of questions about this one, but what the hell, you guys?
- [18:38]
Amid Albert
We're talking, of course, about Theodosa showing up with Griffin's face.
- [18:42]
Kevin Lau
We thought that would be a very interesting moment, a very cool moment.
- [18:46]
Greta Johnson
It was a very interesting moment.
- [18:49]
Kevin Lau
You know, like, throughout the season, we've been building up that Theo is unique. And, you know, the question in the room always came up of, like, how do we reveal that she's able to do this? But, like, in terms of the sequence, what's interesting about it for me in working on it is, like, I think you brought this up earlier. Like, this episode plays with the idea of, like, what is a dream, what is a nightmare, what is reality? And when you see. When Valya sees Griffin across the room from her after this highly explosive emotional scene that she went through, like, is the audience believing. Does the audience believe that this is real? You know, and playing with that idea and this and the tension within, like, the narrative itself, I thought was incredibly fun, an incredibly fun way to reveal what Theo's powers are in such an emotionally impactful way for Valya and at the same time, us understanding that Theo is now aligned with Valya and is willing to do what it takes in order to fulfill this mission.
- [19:52]
Greta Johnson
Well, and she was hesitant initially. I mean, there is a conversation earlier in the episode that I think is also worth highlighting because she's very. She thought she was never gonna have to use it, more or less. Right?
- [20:03]
Kevin Lau
Yes.
- [20:04]
Amid Albert
Yes.
- [20:04]
Kevin Lau
And. And what we see too, is there's a consequence, you know, in the pain she has to go through in order, you know, to shift, change shape.
- [20:15]
Sarah Sophie Busnina
And, you know, it's. In this episode, it's Theo's choice to turn into Griffin. It's sort of a gift she's giving Valya, her way of telling Valya, I'm willing to do this for you. So that's sort of Theo's choice in this instance of her showing Valya, I understand how hard it was for you to come and do this. I understand, like, that I need to also make this sacrifice. And I think we thought of it as almost like a gift that she's giving Balia in that moment to be able to sort of see her brother again.
- [20:42]
Greta Johnson
That makes sense.
- [20:43]
Kevin Lau
Yeah.
- [20:44]
Amid Albert
Let us go to the Landsraad, which is also one of these mind twisty turning. You're walking in with so many plots happening and you don't know which one's gonna go off, which bomb is going off, which plot is gonna be the main ticker. But I think it's worth talking about because we've talked about the Landsraad a few times. What is the Lands Red? Like, what is actually the Lands Red for people who are not familiar. And what's the power structure here?
- [21:10]
Sarah Sophie Busnina
So the Lands Red is. I don't know if this is accurate, but I sort of think of it as like, you know, the Senate, or, like, you know, it's A sort of governing body, but it's basically all the great houses of the Imperium that sort of come together, you know, for sort of issues of the Imperium, technically. In episode four, what we're seeing is the High Council meeting, which is the sort of. I think there's a division in Dune of the sort of, like, great and, like, minor houses. So the High Council are sort of the top of the top, like, houses. So this is a sort of smaller group than, like, the larger Landsraad would be more of the houses, but that's what Harrow sort of wants. House Harkonnen. They are already a house, but they want to be elevated to the High Council.
- [21:52]
Kevin Lau
Yeah, yeah. It's the ruling class coming together to, you know, rule and politic and do all their stuff.
- [22:02]
Greta Johnson
I do think that's always, you know, the device of bringing a bunch of people together is always so interesting and can work in a variety of different ways. You know, you can have your, like, catastrophic wedding or just, like, weird party. But I think this is another instance of that, right, Where. And especially to Amit's point, like, there are so many different people with different motivations walking into that room that I think that moment is always really exciting in a great TV show. Cause you're just like, I have no idea what's about to happen.
- [22:31]
Suzanne Rubel
Yeah.
- [22:32]
Kevin Lau
I mean, this was a beast of a scene, I think, to not only write, but just to conceive of. And this is a culmination of a lot of story points, not only for this episode, but I think across the first four episodes, Desmond, we play cards down as to what his motivations are and what he is ultimately going to do. I think that's part of the fun of the scene, too, is like, well, what is Desmond gonna do? What is know what's gonna happen? You know, I think juggling. Juggling that tension across multiple storylines, you know, was very tricky.
- [23:14]
Sarah Sophie Busnina
Yeah. I think every character is coming into this with a sort of plan and motivation, which was really fun. And then ultimately, you know, we knew that this was gonna be a moment for Desmond to kind of step forward and publicly exert his power, in a way, is gonna make the great houses sort of bow down to the emperor, which, you know, we see that Natalia is kind of trying to push the emperor to be a little stronger in this moment. And. Yeah. So he kind of supersedes everything. I think it's funny. Cause, like, the speech he sort of gives about all these sort of animals on Arrakis, and then the one Leviathan that sort of comes and defeats them all in a way that's sort of acted out here, where it's like everyone kind of has their. Their little political machinations or their little. Their plots that they're all kind of coming together. And then you just have Desmond kind of come in and supersede all of that.
- [24:04]
Kevin Lau
I think what's also great in that storyline is that Desmond ultimately gives the decision to the emperor and is waiting for him judgment. And I think that is a defining moment for the emperor. Will he or will he not use Desmond as a weapon? And then we see what happens from there.
- [24:23]
Greta Johnson
Yeah.
- [24:25]
Amid Albert
Well, thank you both so much for joining us. This was such an amazing episode. We're excited to see the rest of the season.
- [24:31]
Sarah Sophie Busnina
Awesome. Thank you guys so much. It was really fun.
- [24:32]
Kevin Lau
Thank you so much for having us.
- [24:41]
Greta Johnson
And now we are very happy to welcome the actors behind a few of our favorite characters. Sarah, Sophie. Boot us. Nina, who plays Princess Inez. Shalom. Bruin Franklin, who plays Mikaela. And Chris Mason, who plays Kieran Atreides. Thank you all for being here.
- [24:57]
Shalom Bruin Franklin
Thanks for having us.
- [24:58]
Suzanne Rubel
Thank you. Thanks for having us. Yeah.
- [25:00]
Amid Albert
So you all have characters who have a very kind of layered levels of motivation, and we've really enjoyed seeing the multiple layers to each of your characters. Did you all know that that was going to be the case when you started in the show? Chris, Shalom. Did you know that your characters were going to be so instrumental to the rebellion?
- [25:20]
Shalom Bruin Franklin
Yeah, I think. Well, we got five scripts, right? That was kind of how we started. We kind of got the first five episodes. So, you know, you get to kind of go through that. And, you know, Alison had mentioned about the rebellion and how important that was. I wasn't aware until I read the script that Mikaela might have ulterior motives. And that was a bit of a devastating thing to find out at the time.
- [25:41]
Greta Johnson
The betrayal.
- [25:42]
Suzanne Rubel
The betrayal.
- [25:43]
Greta Johnson
Look how angry he is.
- [25:45]
Suzanne Rubel
He's genuinely mad now.
- [25:48]
Shalom Bruin Franklin
We're not talking Shalom anymore.
- [25:51]
Greta Johnson
Well, I think it's especially interesting in the context of Chris, your character, being an Atreides, because, I don't know. I mean, I know that Dune is well known for having complex characters, and there's a lot of nuance around sort of like goodness or badness. But I feel like, to a certain extent, the Atreides are like, they do what's right. And so it's interesting to see your character sort of like you think he's just gonna be a straightforward, you know, weapons master or whatever, but then it turns out that he has. And I think he still believes what he's doing is right, but it's just a little more complicated than that, you know?
- [26:24]
Shalom Bruin Franklin
Yeah, very complicated. You know, I think he believes in fighting the good fight, and I think that's something that we can draw a parallel to, like, later Atreides and stuff. But, you know, this episode especially, it's like, I think he realizes how everyone. You know, there's a kind of a theme of people being steps ahead throughout this show, everyone thinking that there's steps ahead. And Kieran kind of realizes he's actually a fair few steps behind in this moment, and he believes what he's doing is right, but something is nagging at him.
- [26:55]
Amid Albert
Sarah, let's talk about your character at the beginning of this episode. She is very upset with her father. She's trying to make sense of Desmond Hart. What do you think is going through her head? Why does she think her father is siding with Desmond Harris?
- [27:10]
I
Well, I think she just, you know, she thinks that he has become so enamored with this person and the way of, you know, the way he does things and the. You know, he feels powerful, you know, having someone who. By his side that people fear all of a sudden, you know? And I think for Inez, seeing her father change to the point where she doesn't recognize him anymore because of this person is very upsetting to her. All of a sudden, all of her plans has been torn apart for her future. She's lost Kasha, a child has been murdered, and everyone in her family seems to not really care about it. So for her, she's. You know, she's realizing all of this in this episode. And I think her beliefs just become. They just become more and more strong throughout the episode that what she feels is right is not what her parents are doing, her family are doing at the moment. And the fact that they're willing to lie to show a united front is just the opposite of what she believes in. So she's really eager to do something about it. But in the beginning of the episode, she doesn't know how, when, and what. In a way, you know. Yeah. I think it's the conversation with. With Kiran that forms the idea of confronting her father at the Landsraad. You know what's funny? You could have been the one trapped in a palace instead of me. Maureen Atreides was offered the throne and rejected it.
- [28:44]
Shalom Bruin Franklin
Maybe he saw what would come of the freedoms he fought for. Look around. We defeated the machines, but we replaced one set of overlords with another.
- [28:53]
I
Yet here you are partaking righteous but not pure. My father is a good man.
- [29:01]
Amid Albert
I'm just imagining Shalam's character in the corner. Just there's like. She's just like looking like.
- [29:07]
Suzanne Rubel
We couldn't actually hear the glare that I give good glare in that moment.
- [29:12]
Amid Albert
I give amazing glare.
- [29:13]
Suzanne Rubel
I could almost hear it. I could almost hear it.
- [29:16]
Amid Albert
Yeah. As we were saying earlier, I was so shocked when you two were so friendly to each other because you guys really gave off the vibe that you do not like each other in that show. So let's talk about that dynamic. The little trio, this trio that's, you know, kind of really, a lot of their scenes are together here. They're seeing each other in public. You know, they're having to.
- [29:35]
Greta Johnson
In the club. In the club. They're in the club.
- [29:38]
Amid Albert
And they have to, you know, play a lot of different roles. You know, Kiran is playing one role to the rebellion and another role to what his day job is. Inez is coming in and causing a whole bunch of chaos for everybody. So let's talk a little bit about that. Like, kind of how you guys thought about what everyone thinks about everyone else. Yeah.
- [29:56]
Suzanne Rubel
And I remember, I think that was the hardest scene, actually, was that that first episode when we first meet Michaela, that for me was the hardest scene to pitch. Just it's. We talk about that look between Sarah, Sophie and I. But it was so important because I did really didn't want it to play as jealousy towards Atreides, which I really think it can easily be mistaken for. And then I thought actually, if it does play as jealousy, that almost worse too, because people are going to think, oh, maybe there's something going on between them and she's jealous. But, yeah, it adds to the mystery of. You just really don't know what's going on with this woman. She just seems like the simple barmaid. And then episode two happens and it's like, what? Surprise. I wish I screamed surprise as I pull the cloak off.
- [30:41]
Greta Johnson
Yeah.
- [30:43]
Suzanne Rubel
But, yeah, that's just a watchful eye. Always keeping an eye on him. And I think, yeah, just not wanting him to get distracted with the plan because it's a variable. I don't think she had foreseen coming, which she should have. I mean, these two hot people together, training all the time.
- [31:00]
Greta Johnson
Yes.
- [31:00]
Suzanne Rubel
Both single. How did I not know that was going to happen? Yeah, it's very silly missteps.
- [31:06]
Greta Johnson
Well, I feel like also in the scene, it's the most we see, at least have seen so far of Kieran Expressing his frustrations with the Imperium to Ines. Do you think that's a fair assessment?
- [31:18]
Shalom Bruin Franklin
Yeah, absolutely. You know, it's quite a sad scene for Kieran because I feel like, you know, the scene before this, he's really, you know, he's committing to one cause, and he's sitting there with Horus and he's having this conversation. It's like, all right, you know, you've got to get your hands dirty to do the right thing. And he's committed to it. And the last person he wants to see is the princess. He kind of wants all this to happen and hopefully the princess be away and not be there and survive, you know, and that's as. That's kind of his main thing. So when she turns up, it's this kind of. He sees it maybe as the last chance to. If she can be a key player in this, if she can do something that I don't have to do, you know, if she can get to him first, maybe. Maybe there's a chance that something can change from that way and I don't have to go through with this kind of heinous act. And I think the only way he can do that is opening up. And I think he is. He is a guy who's very true to his beliefs and his heart. And I think he sees something in EZ that is similar in terms of. They both have kind of a true heart in terms of what they believe is the right thing. And I think this is the scene where he takes a chance on, you know, putting it in her lap of like, hey, you've got the power to maybe do something here.
- [32:31]
Amid Albert
Sarah, Sophie, Chris. Do you think the characters love each other? Do you think there's like a. That's where they're at. What do you think is the status of the feelings for each other define the relationship?
- [32:42]
I
I think it evolved from being like a, you know, a physical relationship to something I think, in four that blossoms and can evolve to love, maybe.
- [32:53]
Shalom Bruin Franklin
Yeah. I think they're both surprised by the fact that the connection is deeper than what they first thought it might be.
- [33:00]
I
Yeah.
- [33:01]
Shalom Bruin Franklin
And I think, you know, a lot of things play into that. It's the events that are happening around them make them. Their kind of thoughts maybe align in a way, and they see each other as a. A safe space for certain things, but also dangerous waters, you know?
- [33:16]
I
Yeah.
- [33:16]
Greta Johnson
Yeah.
- [33:17]
I
I think finesse also. Cause, you know, the more she's pushed away from her family, you know, and the more she's, you know, at that Moment he's there, and she starts opening up, and I think she's surprised by how that feels, that it feels good to open up to him.
- [33:34]
Amid Albert
Something we have to talk about, which is, like, a little bit of a pivot, but is the Atreides name and the Atreides family. It's just so important to the world, and it's so important to, you know, like, the Harkonnen plot as well. Like, the Harkonnens are really. They are really paying attention to you. What is, like, everyone's viewpoint of the Atreides? How does Kieran see his own name? And then how do your two characters, Sarah, Sophie and Shalom, how do they see the Atreides? What is their relationship to it? Like, do they. Do they value the Atreides name? Like, does it still have that value?
- [34:05]
Shalom Bruin Franklin
Yeah, you know, obviously, I think Vorian Atreides, this great war hero, part of the, you know, one of the reasons that they managed to defeat the machines. So he. He knows his name is good, and I think people look to it as a good thing. You know, he's inherited some sort of respect from that. But I think he's also inherited, like, a trauma. Albert, his dad, you know, who managed to survive the atrocities that happened from Tula Harkonnen. And I think he's been raised with that. Knowing that story, you know, that was his bedtime story, if you like, was. This is, you know, this is what happened to our family. So, you know, the Harkin and Atreides dynamic is from both sides. There's a sense of injustice. I think Kieran's sense of injustice is one of the big things that's got him into the rebellion. You know, it's like, I want to help the people who were, you know, who need help, because my family have suffered before. And he, in turn, can use his name that, you know, that people know and respect to get himself into the position of sword master. I think he's a proud Atreides, but I think he also has an ambition to kind of redefine Atreides as they are right now.
- [35:15]
Amid Albert
Sarah, Sophie, how does your character perceive of the Atreides?
- [35:19]
I
Well, I think, you know, as you know, she's heard all the stories about the family, and. And I think she thinks it's really cool that her trainer is an Atreides. It's like kind of meeting someone that's famous, I think. I think she finds that cool and attractive. And then, you know, it's like, oh, it's an Atreides.
- [35:41]
Greta Johnson
Shalom. I would love to talk a little more about Mikayla because it's, I mean, she is playing this double agent role. Right. She is a sister, though she is also part of the rebellion. The rebels don't know she's a sister. She's reporting back about what's going on. Yeah. At this point in the season, what do you think is the state of her faith and her allegiance to the sisterhood? Like, it seems like she is still happy. Well, maybe not happy to, but like game to do what she's told. Is that fair, you think?
- [36:17]
Suzanne Rubel
Yeah, I think that is fair. And it's the complex thing about Mikayla because. Because she is Fremen and from what we know of the Fremen people, they're incredibly close knit and incredibly loyal to their own. And so her being a part of the sisterhood, full stop, is strange and is incredibly unique. And so the fact that this rebellion is essentially to kind of allow her people more power and more freedom, of course she's gonna be empathetic towards it. I think naturally you would, you know, but. But she has to believe that the sisterhood's plans are greater and more important and will be good for everybody. You know, I think she has to keep believing that. But definitely, as we go along and we see more and more of the sisterhood is is it sisterhood above all or is it Valia above all? Let's have that conversation, you know, and I think that's what's going on in her head is like, wait a second, are we supposed to assume that this person really has the perfect perspective of what the world should look like and isn't, you know, there aren't other things? So, yeah, I think the question of the doubt, the seed of doubt is definitely, I think, I actually do think it is planted in episode two almost when she basically suggests that she might burn the whole cell. And this, all this work that Mikaela has done to set this rebellion up and be at the heart of it. And also it's not just the fact that she, she's, she's orchestrating this rebellion, it's the fact that she's keeping it simmering at just the right, right amount of rebellion, you know.
- [37:52]
Greta Johnson
Sure.
- [37:53]
Suzanne Rubel
So that it's useful for Valia. So I think the idea that she wants to blow up this whole plan. Yeah, it's, it's difficult for her, I think.
- [38:02]
Greta Johnson
Yeah. Okay, let's dive into this rebel plot a little bit more. Let's listen to some of Kieran Atreides conversation with Michaela about it.
- [38:09]
Suzanne Rubel
You. You sure you're up for this? You seem a little bit spooked.
- [38:15]
Shalom Bruin Franklin
I don't need to convince you.
- [38:17]
Suzanne Rubel
No, but you should probably convince yourself. Making the imperium better comes at a cost. You ready to pay it? Are you?
- [38:34]
Shalom Bruin Franklin
You're so. You're so two faced in that scene. Like it's cuz like, you know, you're serving my head up on a platter for. For Val, you know, and that's like, you know. But you're also playing on Kieran's insecurities and kind of romantic side, you know, his true heart. I don't think people really realize how nasty you are in that scene. I think I'm only just realizing it now, seeing it.
- [39:00]
Suzanne Rubel
It's like, wow, it's so savage. It's so mean. I know. And she's literally just given his name. It's just so. Oh, gosh. You sure you're ready to do this? She's just manipulating you, you know, she's always one step ahead, baby. It's a sisterhood. Yeah, you can try.
- [39:19]
Amid Albert
But my read was she's just frustrated with her co workers. She's like, can this guy stop sleeping with the people who are trying to.
- [39:27]
Suzanne Rubel
Thank you, Amit.
- [39:27]
Amid Albert
Thank you. She's like, valya's messing up my stuff. She wants me to burn. She's just so done with it. She's just like, I just wanna do my job. That's how I kind of saw it. Let me just do my job.
- [39:38]
Suzanne Rubel
Does he understand how hard it is to start a rebellion? You know, and you're gonna throw it all away?
- [39:46]
Shalom Bruin Franklin
I was there, I took the grate off, you know, I was ready to go. Okay, you cannot. Like, Kieran did everything he could.
- [39:56]
Greta Johnson
So a big part of what it seems like this rebellion is about is the idea of getting spice flowing. How much do you think your characters know about like what is currently happening with the spice trade at this moment in time during the show?
- [40:12]
Shalom Bruin Franklin
I think our characters know a fair amount of what's happening on the ground to Fremen people. And I think that's one of the big reasons for the rebellion. So we're obviously getting intel on how people are being treated, what's happening with the spice, where it's being taken from, how it's being mined, how people are, you know, and then obviously we've maybe had a hand in people taking over some of the, you know, like with the. When Desmond Hart's trooper taken over by people and you know, some of it is stolen. I think we've had a hand in that. So I think we. We're pretty up to date. And I feel like. I mean, I always felt like Michaela was the source of a lot of that intel for us.
- [40:48]
Amid Albert
Right.
- [40:49]
Shalom Bruin Franklin
At least that's how it kind of felt with me and me, Horace and Michaela, like that kind of little trio. She would get us the intel on that side. Atreides would use his name to infiltrate from the inside. And Horus was the kind of the leader of the. Of the rebellion with the. With the big plans.
- [41:04]
Suzanne Rubel
Yeah. And there's also saying, you know, like, we here you are partaking in it. It's like we all partake in it, even though. Hypocrisy.
- [41:11]
Greta Johnson
Yeah.
- [41:12]
Suzanne Rubel
Yeah, we're all hypocrites. We know where most of our things come from, and yet we're all partaking in it because we can't help it. And this rebellion is really trying to blow that up, trying to completely ruin the order of the way the world works. And so, yeah, I think they believe they're really trying to create freedom and free flow of spice, you know, resources for everybody, not just for the select few.
- [41:35]
Amid Albert
That last scene, meaning the final confrontation at the Landsraad, where there's all these, you know, conflicting things. Sarah, Sophie, your character thinks Constantine is, like, gonna take the lead on calling off their father. Let's talk a little bit about, like, what has. Where everyone is at at the end of that.
- [41:52]
I
Well, I think Ines thought that, you know, surely when she confronts her father in front of all these great houses, he will wake up and put this guy in jail where he belongs, and, you know, he has to do what's right. But then when he, you know, when he turns the whole thing around and talks about the assassination, I think that is. That is the biggest shock because on her way up to confronting him, she's pretty sure she's, you know, she got this, you know. So I think. I mean, it just turns everything upside down for her. It ends completely the other, like, completely opposite of what she thought going into it.
- [42:34]
Greta Johnson
Yeah. I mean, it kind of seems like it's the opposite of what pretty much everybody, you know, I mean, it reminds me, Chris, of what you were saying earlier about how, like, everyone thinks they're two steps ahead. But, like, I feel like in this scene, it's very clear that, like, I mean, Desmond is such an agent of chaos that, like, there. No one could have predicted that, you know? Yeah.
- [42:51]
Shalom Bruin Franklin
This scene is like six trains all heading towards the same crossing at the same time. You know, and then one train you didn't even know just comes out of nowhere and takes everyone.
- [42:59]
Amid Albert
What was it like filming that?
- [43:01]
Shalom Bruin Franklin
Yeah. So it was a fascinating film to, you know, everyone was kind of excited for it. We've seen it on the schedule. It took four days to shoot. We've got a bunch of extras in there, and our director, Richard Lewis, was. I think it's the most prepared I've ever seen anyone for anything. He turned up with storyboards. Like, he had every little shot, everything, and had the schedule mapped out and the crew and everyone. It was a really tough four days. When you're in the same location doing the same action for four days, it can be really, like, really tough. And, you know, just keep the energy going. And obviously, Travis and Desmond has that big monologue in the middle where he's, you know, telling so much story and just given such a great performance. And kudos to him because he did it the four days. He just did that monologue every time with the same energy and gave everyone, you know, something to react to. He was fantastic. And Richard and the crew really, like, brought it together. And in terms of Kieran, we see him leave at the end. And, you know, I don't want to give any spoilers of what's going on, but we don't know how safe Kieran is.
- [44:00]
I
Yeah. And Nez also, you know, in that scene, recognizes one of the rebels that she met in the club as well, which is also a big moment for her because she's like, okay, what's going on here? Can I trust anyone?
- [44:14]
Greta Johnson
Where do you think the rebellion stands at this point?
- [44:18]
Shalom Bruin Franklin
I mean, you could say the rebellion is at least in Kieran's mind. Right back to the drawing board. You know, I think that was. They spent a lot of time, possibly years, building up to this plot, and for that not to happen and to be kind of foiled in such a dramatic way, it's definitely back to the drawing board.
- [44:36]
Suzanne Rubel
Yeah. I would also say that I wouldn't underestimate that, that Val Harkonnen might have a Plan B and even a plan C and maybe even a plan D. That's very enticing. Yeah.
- [44:50]
Amid Albert
Thank you all for joining us. It was so much fun, and we're excited to see the rest of the series.
- [44:53]
Suzanne Rubel
Thank you.
- [44:54]
I
Thank you so much for having us.
- [44:55]
Shalom Bruin Franklin
Thank you very much.
- [45:01]
Greta Johnson
Next, Ahmed, we are going to play an interview that I got to do with two people who helped create the magic of the Dune prophecy universe. VFX producer Taryn Pratt and VFX supervisor Michael Enriquez.
- [45:15]
Amid Albert
I'm so excited to hear this. Let's go.
- [45:19]
Greta Johnson
Thank you both for being here.
- [45:21]
Chris Mason
Thanks for having us.
- [45:21]
Ahmed Aliakbar
Yeah, thanks for having us.
- [45:23]
Greta Johnson
So to start, we've been asking all of our guests what their relationship to Dune was before they started working on the show. Mike, what about you?
- [45:33]
Ahmed Aliakbar
So I obviously been aware of Dune because I'm a big sci fi nerd, but I honestly had never read the books up until the Denis film was announced. When I heard that Denis was doing the film, I thought, okay, I'm really going to need to see this film and I want to have some context. So picked up the book and couldn't put it down. And couldn't put the next one down. And couldn't put the next one down. So I'm in the middle of God Emperor currently, still trying to make my way through all the vast amounts of books.
- [45:57]
Greta Johnson
That's impressive. So what about you, Taryn?
- [46:01]
Chris Mason
I'm not quite as impressive as Michael. Mike really dug in. I definitely had a history with it. I remember it when I was much younger, but I probably didn't see it or hear about it for many, many years. And then when this series was coming around, I had heard about it and I was very interested in trying to figure out how to get involved. And unfortunately, everything aligned and timing worked out and I was able to jump onto the project. Project.
- [46:30]
Greta Johnson
That's awesome. I mean, I just think this has to be such an exciting project to get to figure out VFX for because there are just so many different elements happening at any given time. Right.
- [46:42]
Ahmed Aliakbar
I mean, it's kind of a dream come true for me, to be honest. I mean, I'm a big sci fi nerd. I love working on sci fi projects. So the opportunity to come to Dune and actually carry forward something that I've become obsessed with in terms of the recent films, it was pretty amazing.
- [46:57]
Greta Johnson
That's really cool. It does seem like this show has pretty prominent sets happening as opposed to like mostly green screen stuff. Is that a fair assessment?
- [47:10]
Chris Mason
Absolutely. The sets are massive and extensive, and the perfect marriage of production design and visual effects makes everything look so much better. We would prefer to always start with nice, big, rich sets that we can then add to. You know, obviously where we have the ability to put a character in front of a green screen and build a world. But when you have those design elements, when you have something practical, tangible bits that people can touch and interact with, and then we build upon that, that's the best case scenario.
- [47:48]
Ahmed Aliakbar
Yeah. And with the great sets that were built. I mean, even as grand, as large as they are, the actual locations in the story are bigger than what's there. So obviously we need the set that's been built. But then VFX needs to complete every set that's been built to add either the top layer or whatever's further back. So every set in this show just about is a mixture of VFX and practical. That, in my opinion, is pretty seamless.
- [48:13]
Greta Johnson
It is seamless. It's really cool. One thing that I always had questions about is the space travel of it all, because obviously people are getting around from planet to planet, but we don't spend a lot of time seeing those ships or where they're landing. And that's something that's been really exciting with the TV show. Because y'all have built that.
- [48:33]
Ahmed Aliakbar
Yeah, we tried. I mean, we took everything that's canon from Dune and made sure that it's all valid in terms of this area of the timeline. But that's one of the things that I really was happy to be able to be showing more of. You know, I love spaceships, I love sci fi. So the opportunity to actually, like, create something new for this franchise and being 10,000 years separate from the films meant. Well, yes. You know, given that Dune has a technology stagnation, the technology is the same in the world. They still have to look different. They still have to, you know, have a slightly different feel. So I think we did a pretty good job in making our ships look kind of antiquated in a way, but still have that futuristic transportation vibe.
- [49:16]
Greta Johnson
Well, that is such a fascinating thing about Dune in general. Right? Is that. But it's anti tech, but it's also post tech, which means it still existed. So there's a feudalism to it. But also it's still obviously so much more advanced than where we are in our human scale.
- [49:32]
Ahmed Aliakbar
Yeah, it's this weird post tech. The words everyone kept throwing on inside is antique futurism, which fits very, very well. That's so cool, because you need to connect to what people are familiar with. And the reality of the matter is that technology is the same between now and 10,000 years in the future. There have been slight variations, slight improvements in the efficiencies, but there hasn't really been a new technology breakthrough. So things still function the same way. So what we try to do is just give each thing a little bit of either a rougher feel, a little bit of a precursor feel to where it's going to be, but still working in the same manner.
- [50:09]
Chris Mason
Yeah. I think one of the biggest challenges for Visual Effects, in addition to being familiar to the recent features, we also have to remember that these books are quite old. So there's a lot of people that have read them over the years that have built this entire world in their head over decades that we also have to kind of over decades that we also have to play into, you know, and so it's a. Probably. It's a massive challenge for us to create something that's unique to our show that fits tonally across the story that Allison is trying to tell, but also fit in the idea that other people have created, and so that we kind of bring that audience along for the ride.
- [50:58]
Greta Johnson
I want to get into some specific VFX moments in this episode because there are some very interesting ones, especially Theodosia, which was one that I did not see coming at all. She shapeshifts from Griffin back into her own body. That's what we see. I have to say, this was one of those scenes where I was like, is this a dream? What is happening? Who is this person? How did you make this happen?
- [51:26]
Ahmed Aliakbar
Well, Taryn, do you wanna jump into it started or.
- [51:29]
Chris Mason
I don't wanna.
- [51:30]
Ahmed Aliakbar
Okay, no problem.
- [51:31]
Chris Mason
That was so complicated.
- [51:33]
Shalom Bruin Franklin
No problem.
- [51:34]
Chris Mason
Yeah. I think I'll let you take it.
- [51:36]
Ahmed Aliakbar
So Theo was. Theo has been alluded to in the early episodes, has, you know, a special skill. It was something that she really didn't want to do, but she does it for Valya. And it was something that we discussed quite a bit, because anytime you're doing any kind of a morph effect, visually, it's just always goofy. It just never really looks right. There's so many reasons why Amorph is kind of odd. When you start to think about how hair or wardrobe works, it just doesn't make any sense. So we came up with the idea of an intermediary state between people. So she will morph into kind of a embryonic type state where the skin is translucent, you see all the features, Everything becomes a bit softer and the bones are able to restructure, and then she flows into the skin color of the person she's becoming, and it all goes. So it was a bit of a difficult process because we weren't even quite sure how much we wanted to show of it. Initially. There was thoughts of like, oh, let's just keep it in the shadows. Just keep it a subtle thing. But it became too subtle. It became really kind of hard to tell what was going on. I'm pretty happy with where it ended up. Even though I will say I still don't like morph effects. I still find it. Find it odd, but the way we were able to lean on the hair falling out and, you know, before her hair actually regrows in and the painful effects of how, you know, the shape shift would happen, we went through a lot of back and forth of how painful is it?
- [53:02]
Kevin Lau
How does.
- [53:02]
Ahmed Aliakbar
How translucent do they get? Do they, you know, does it become an actual blob in the middle? There was so many weird vibes that a lot of them just became too silly. A lot of them just became too. Not grounded, not duned.
- [53:13]
Greta Johnson
Well, yeah, I mean, there's the uncanny valley stuff too playing here too, right? 100%. Yeah. No, it can't be silly. Like you're trying to convey, and you do such a great job too, of communicating how much pain she is in as she is undergoing this, which also seems like an important element in terms of, like, sure, she has this ability, but at what cost?
- [53:33]
Ahmed Aliakbar
Exactly. Yeah, she doesn't want to be doing this, but it puts that much more weight into the fact that she is doing this for Velya.
- [53:40]
Greta Johnson
Another scene we have to talk about is Desmond committing a public execution at the High Council where he burns a number of people alive. It was really interesting. We talked to a couple of the actors about what it was like to film that, and I guess it was like a four day shoot. It sounds very emotionally taxing just for the folks who were there, but I would love to hear about how you work through a moment like that that is so VFX heavy and what it actually looks like on set.
- [54:09]
Chris Mason
Yeah, I think that scene was quite complicated because there are so many people involved. I mean, it's a real dance with the camera work and the number of actors coming in and out of the scene and Desmond's interacting with. With all of them causing this pain and this execution across all of them. So logistically, it was rather complicated to set up. And for us, I think there was a good blend between visual effects and the practical effects that we had on some of the prosthetics that we had on some of the characters. And not all of them had that, but there were elements that it was like. This would be really nice to have that we can then build upon.
- [54:59]
Greta Johnson
This would be really nice. You mean these blisters?
- [55:01]
Chris Mason
These blisters or, you know, there were some veins and whatnot. Of course, it's just. And so we'd also have seen this effect happen at the end of episode one already, and those two executions. I Guess, for lack of a better term in that episode had a different feeling to them. And they also. It was more intimate. You were closer in on the characters, and you'd already established kind of a relationship with those two characters. But this needed to feel different also, because the scene is quite long and you're there with them the whole time. So, you know, we had different versions of. I can't remember the character's name. When he grabs the.
- [55:44]
Ahmed Aliakbar
Oh, Lord Hagel.
- [55:46]
Chris Mason
Yeah, Lord Hagal. He grabs that wood railing, and we actually scorch that railing as if he is so hot from the inside that he's burning that railing.
- [55:55]
Ahmed Aliakbar
And since we had tracking markers in everyone's skin when the burning specific burning scenes were shot, we just ran an initial pass. Okay, here's our first idea of the burning progression throughout all the shots. A very rough pass to see how much we're getting in each shot and then dial it in from there.
- [56:10]
Greta Johnson
And when you say the burning progression, you mean like little blister? Big blister, Oozing blister.
- [56:15]
Ahmed Aliakbar
Yeah. Starting from a little bit of redness and sweat. Going into some veins. Forming. Going into blisters.
- [56:22]
Greta Johnson
Forming.
- [56:22]
Ahmed Aliakbar
Going into actual fissures and cracks and then embers. Yeah, that's that whole process, the steam. We had a whole set process and then was deciding what. What worked best in each shot. And of course, we had five people that were burning. So for each character we had. So it was a. It was a lot of work just to figure out what. Where it wanted to go. But once. Once we understood the stages, I mean, it was really just a matter of polishing up and making it. Making it look good.
- [56:46]
Shalom Bruin Franklin
Yeah.
- [56:46]
Chris Mason
And I think the other thing to note there is that we needed to be cognizant of the level of effects that we were seeing on these characters and understand that they are still moving. So how far can you take it? And that was a discussion throughout production and in post in terms of can they be fully charred and still be moving around? Like, the idea is that they are burning from the inside. So at some point, everything inside is not working anymore for finally seeing it on your hands and your arms and your face. So it was delicate balance of. Don't push it too far, because it needs to feel real and people need to understand what's happening here, but it needs to feel grotesque and painful, and you really need to feel it. I think one really cool example is when we melt the gold tooth of one of the prisoners. Oh, Jury. Yeah, Jury. He got so hot that this gold Tooth has melted inside his mouth. And with that, if you look closely, you can see that the gums have started to erode a little bit, and it char on the inside of the mouth and all these little fine details, which for the most part, you probably don't even realize, but all put together, especially if you watch it a second viewing, you will pick up on some of these fine.
- [58:10]
Greta Johnson
I am so stressed out right now.
- [58:14]
Chris Mason
Yeah, it's a pretty disgusting thing to think about, and especially when you have to. I think that the Pruitt scene for me was the most difficult because, I mean, it's a child, and this is the first episode, and you've got bits of embers that are floating off of him and steam and same thing with all of these other characters as well. It's. It's a difficult thing to. To watch. Even though, you know, you've created it, this is real, but it's still, you know, and I think that that's, like. Tells you that you've kind of hit it.
- [58:49]
Sarah Sophie Busnina
Yeah, exactly.
- [58:50]
Greta Johnson
Yeah. When I'm disturbed, Success. Yeah, yeah.
- [58:53]
Ahmed Aliakbar
When I'm disturbed. I know. We. We hit it.
- [58:56]
Greta Johnson
Oh, weird. I wish I could ask you this question regarding all six episodes, but restraining to the first force, since that is what we have seen, I would love to know what effect you're proudest of at this point.
- [59:12]
Ahmed Aliakbar
I mean, look, it's a little bit hard to pick favorites because there's so many components, but I'm always partial to the Arrakis worm setup that we've done, and especially Desmond's brief mind's eye vision that we see in episode four during the burning, where we're actually seeing it from his perspective. That was a lot of fun. That was a lot of fun to do. A lot of fun to come up with. You know, we saw it in the hologram in episode one, but it was via hologram. Finally being able to see it through Desmond's eyes, as it actually was, to me is. Was a lot of fun to pull off. Taryn, anything else?
- [59:50]
Chris Mason
Yeah, no, I think, like you said, it's really hard to pick favorites, especially when you're proud of so much of the work that has gone into those episodes. And it's. The shot count is staggering.
- [60:00]
Greta Johnson
Yeah, I imagine that's also part of it is like, well, I'm sort of sick of looking at all of these things, but I'm happy with how they turned out.
- [60:06]
Chris Mason
Right, Exactly. I think there's a little bit of that.
- [60:09]
I
Yeah.
- [60:09]
Greta Johnson
You've seen so many people127 yeah, totally.
- [60:13]
Chris Mason
And you lose perspective on it. And is this still interesting? I've seen it so many times, but somebody coming to afresh. Is this really going to be interesting? And to kind of build upon what Mike was saying about Arrakis and the worm. I think what was really cool in episode one was that it was a combination of Arrakis and this worm that we're already familiar with. And I think that the audience was really waiting for. Right. Yeah, it could pay off in the first episode, but the cool thing about the sequence where we see it in the first episode, within the first few minutes of the episode, is that it kind of melded together the Arrakis environment with our sisterhood complex. And the sisterhood does not exist on Arrakis, it's on Wallach 9. So we took that and because it was a dream in which we saw it, we were able to have some artistic license there and take that sisterhood complex that we had built for Wallach 9, put it into the Arachnus environment, make it out of sand and see it tumble as the worm comes to swallow it up. I think that was a really cool sequence. And that combination, the shot work was done by Image Engine and the original sisterhood complex was built by important looking pirates.
- [61:31]
Greta Johnson
That's awesome. Y'all have such cool jobs. This was so much fun talking to you. Thank you very much for coming on the show.
- [61:36]
Ahmed Aliakbar
Thank you. My pleasure. Thanks for having me.
- [61:41]
Greta Johnson
That's all for this week. We will be back next Sunday night with more special guests. To break down the fifth episode of Dune Prophecy, which you can watch on HBO or stream exclusively on max, be sure to subscribe to the podcast so you don't miss an episode. And if you like what you are hearing, don't forget to leave a rating and review on your podcast player of choice and find us on the Dune Prophecy.
- [62:05]
Amid Albert
Social Media handles the official Dune Prophecy podcast is produced by HBO in collaboration with Pineapple Street Studios. I'm Ahmed Aliakbar.
- [62:13]
Greta Johnson
And I'm Greta Johnson. Our executive producers for Pineapple street are Gabrielle Lewis, Jan Barry and Bari Finkel. Our lead engineer for the show is Hannes Brown. Pineapple's head of sound and engineering is Raj Makhija. Pineapple senior audio engineers are Marina Pais and Pedro Alvira. This episode is mixed by Hannah's Brown.
- [62:34]
Amid Albert
This episode was edited by Darby Baloney. And our producers are Ben Goldberg and Melissa Akiko Slaughter.
- [62:40]
Greta Johnson
Special thanks to Becky Rowe, Allison Cohen and Erin Kelly from the MAX Podcast team.
- [62:44]
Amid Albert
Thanks for listening. See you next week.
- [62:48]
Sarah Sophie Busnina
I would never use the truth against you.
- [62:51]
Shalom Bruin Franklin
Oh, I suspect there are others it would.
- [62:55]
Amid Albert
What's up, everyone?
- [62:55]
Suzanne Rubel
I'm nerd commentator Frankie Smith.
- [62:57]
Chris Mason
And I'm entertainment journalist Tyler Coates.
- [62:59]
Suzanne Rubel
And we're the host of DC Studio.
- [63:01]
Amid Albert
Showcase, the official podcast presented by Max Episode.
- [63:05]
Suzanne Rubel
Every episode, we're joined by our comic.
- [63:06]
Amid Albert
Correspondent, Coy Jondro, to talk culture, talk comics, and invite all kinds of guests into the studio with us for exclusive interviews. DC Studios Showcase, the official podcast, drops every other week, starting Friday, December 6th. You can find us on Max, the Max YouTube channel, or listen wherever you get your podcasts.